Just looking for somewhat of a rough estimate of why any/all of you guys play with third party content, and if you've found it to be a valuable experience or not
Just looking for somewhat of a rough estimate of why any/all of you guys play with third party content, and if you've found it to be a valuable experience or not
I do. Sometimes a 3pp has an adventure, subsystem, or supplement that catches my eye or feels like it fills in a gap in a style that i and my group are pleased with. Immediate example being several of the Genius Guide products in my case.
However, you need to use discretion, not every product is going to be acceptable in a given group, and its entirely possible to find something that is mechanically wonky or easily abusable. Any 3pp stuff (just like any core product, really) should be approved by the group's DM AND the table should be prepared to change/scrap the product if in play it proves to be a detriment to the enjoyment as a whole.
Outside of the material we produce at 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming, I've used 3PP material from Rite Publishing, LPJ, Adamant, John Brazer Enterprises and Kobold Quarterly (to name a handful) in my game over the last 2 years.
And Rathendar is right - any material, 3PP or Paizo-produced should be approved for use. There's APG material I don't use in my games, for instance. Just because it's produced by Paizo doesn't mean its automatically allowed in my games.
Just looking for somewhat of a rough estimate of why any/all of you guys play with third party content, and if you've found it to be a valuable experience or not
My campaign is currently a PFRPG update of the Second Darkness arc. We are total kitchen-sinkers and have a ton of stuff from all over the place. Dreamscarred Press's Psionic Unbound is getting heavy use from one of my players, 4WFG's Book of Arcane Magic and Book of Divine Magic get heavy use by our half-orc druid and gnome bard. We used to have an alchemist that made liberal use of material from Open Design but that alchemist was torn apart by babau. He is now playing an inquisitor and hasn't found much 3rd party stuff to assist him yet.
I think the cleric is currently also not using 3pp stuff but he is new, I would bet over time that will change.
I'm starting to warm up to the idea of some 3pp stuff considering I've bought a few products here. I mostly prefer things that are campaign settings/adventure modules like Open Design's "Tales of the Old Magreve" and GM aids like Raging Swan's "Hobgoblins of the Mailed Fist." So far, I've maintained a strict ban on my players using any 3pp player classes. I played 3x with a group where two of the players used a lot of 3pp books with classes that I thought were a bit overpowered than my simple fighter/thief. But I also felt that way by the later "official" classes that came out. One prime example of a 3pp weapon that irked me was the "flamberge" which did as much damage as my fighter's greatsword but had a threat range of 18-20.
so basically if it's put together well and isn't broken, doesnt suck, and isnt super abusable, people could/would use it
i only ask because a few of us are developing a number of different things and are wondering what the reception of such products would be
so basically if it's put together well and isn't broken, doesnt suck, and isnt super abusable, people could/would use it
i only ask because a few of us are developing a number of different things and are wondering what the reception of such products would be
I think that there is a fair number of consumers who look at 3pp products as a viable commodity. I'll point you to Dark Mistress here on the boards as an example, who makes reviewing and skimming 3pp products look like a full time job.
so basically if it's put together well and isn't broken, doesnt suck, and isnt super abusable, people could/would use it
i only ask because a few of us are developing a number of different things and are wondering what the reception of such products would be
Basically. For some people, super-abusable probably would be a selling point :)!
That being said, based on the recent "Pathways" by Rite Publishing, 3pp seems alive in well if you are going the Pathfinder route.
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Basically. For some people, super-abusable probably would be a selling point :)!so basically if it's put together well and isn't broken, doesnt suck, and isnt super abusable, people could/would use it
i only ask because a few of us are developing a number of different things and are wondering what the reception of such products would be
That'd be an interesting 3PP product, actually ^_^
That'd be an interesting 3PP product, actually ^_^Basically. For some people, super-abusable probably would be a selling point :)!so basically if it's put together well and isn't broken, doesnt suck, and isnt super abusable, people could/would use it
i only ask because a few of us are developing a number of different things and are wondering what the reception of such products would be
I think the best way to tell if it is abusable is to give it to a power gamer to test out. But even "official" product isn't perfect. A clear example is again back in 3x, the power gamer in my group loved the official Hospitalier prestige class. Cleric casting and fighter feats without a trade-off?! Why not? But when it later appeared in the Complete Divine, it had been nerfed quite a bit and he was no longer interested in playing it. And don't even get me started on the "Forsaker..."
I have bought some 3pp stuff, but rarely used any of it besides adventures (preferably setting neutral). The crunch PDFs I have either get lost between published Pathfinder stuff, or fail to interest my players.
Often it's good for interesting reading though, even though it's rarely/never used.
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3rd party content is basically a must if you want anything outside of the fairly generic, narrow baseline that Paizo pretty much has to provide as the foundation for Pathfinder. As a psionics fan, I've only got one option right now as we won't see psionics rules before 2012, if at all, and almost certainly not in a form easily compatible with 3.5 psionics, so again, 3rd party publishers.
And then there's the whole reason Pathfinder exists - the end of Dragon (and Dungeon). Now while the Pathfinder AP volumes do an excellent job of filling the void left by Dungeon's disappearance, there's nothing from Paizo to give a more frequent, more experimental development of rules ideas, short of the couple of hardbacks a year we can expect for the foreseeable future. Dragon was filled with new rules material for PCs: classes, races, feats, equipment, spells, magic items - exactly why I turn to 3rd party PDFs now.
Which specific publishers have I used things from? Well, Dreamscarred has only one Pathfinder-specific release, but I've bought just about everything they've ever released for 3.5 psionics, so they've earned a good spot in my book for years to come. The repeated excellence from the Genius Guides series has me chomping at the bit to just subscribe to everything they release - to quote Futurama's iPhone episode, "Shut up and take my money already!" 4WFG has had a bit of a growing process, their initial releases being a bit underwhelming, but they've really impressed me since then, especially their equipment book Luven Lightfinger's Gear and Treasure Shop.
I like a lot of the products from Rite Publishing... I just have problems with the readability of their PDF page backgrounds. (Content's great, it's just kind of hard to read on-screen, and the printer-friendly versions are a little too plain.) Open Design's Advanced Feats series is really good, for any fan of the classes in the APG, and of course Kobold Quarterly gets use in my games, though admittedly that use can vary from issue to issue, by a lot, to the point where I go from saying "maybe I should just drop my subscription" to "this is the best issue ever" from quarter to quarter.
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That's the biggest issue I've encounter with 3PPs. Virtually all my players have no interest outside the Core rules and official supps like APG. Grrr.... or fail to interest my players.
Tell me what their interests are, and I'll see what we can do!
As for as the OP goes, I use 3pp material myself. A lot of SGG content, obviously, but also Kobold Quarterly, and a smattering of Rite, 4WFG, and John Brazer Enterprises.
4WFG's Book of Arcane Magic and Book of Divine Magic get heavy use by our half-orc druid and gnome bard.
And we thank you for it!
I will not use 3pp unless absolutely necessary.
Most third party products are poor quality. Poorly written, poorly balanced or just poor in general. It's hard to find anything that's really worthwhile and stands out enough for me to actually want to include it.
Even if I do include something 3rd party, it's never ever a whole supplement. Maybe one feat here or a spell there. I make it understood to my players that my default answer to any request outside of core is no. It works well to keep things stable and not devolve into stupidity that I can't keep track of.
If I see an idea in a 3pp that I like, I won't buy the product. I'll write something similar myself, as more closely suited to my setting. At least then I'll know the thoughts that went into the writing and if there are mistakes, my players are more comfortable with me tweaking as we go. Making constant house errata to published products can leave a sour taste in peoples' mouths.
4WFG has had a bit of a growing process, their initial releases being a bit underwhelming, but they've really impressed me since then, especially their equipment book Luven Lightfinger's Gear and Treasure Shop.
We're very glad you like Gear & Treasure so much!
As a GM I make use of quite a bit of 3pp material, especially templates. Regarding prestige classes, base classes, feats and magic items I am much pickier.
I do give the carnivorous hobbit salute to Rite Publishing, LPMJr and Super Genius as well as SKR's "tsathoggua AP" - which for some reason I can't recall the name of to save my recipe book - as the cream of the crop of PFPRG 3pp material so far.
As for as the OP goes, I use 3pp material myself. A lot of SGG content, obviously, but also Kobold Quarterly, and a smattering of Rite, 4WFG, and John Brazer Enterprises.
You've no idea how good it makes me feel to see you mention 4WFG in that list, Owen!
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I will not use 3pp unless absolutely necessary.
Most third party products are poor quality. Poorly written, poorly balanced or just poor in general. It's hard to find anything that's really worthwhile and stands out enough for me to actually want to include it.
I think that might be a bit of a harsh over generalization. It was probably more true toward the end of the big D20 boom a number of years ago, but there is a lot of excellent, very well written and well balanced 3PP stuff for the Pathfinder RPG out there.
You may want to read some reviews etc and give some a try - I think you will be pleasantly surprised! :)
May I ask what are some of the products?so basically if it's put together well and isn't broken, doesnt suck, and isnt super abusable, people could/would use it
i only ask because a few of us are developing a number of different things and are wondering what the reception of such products would be
Without giving too much away, we're making quite a few things. Currently we're making a 1-10ish adventure set in our own campaign setting of which we have a great deal of detail in. This setting has it's own, quite unique history and physical manifestation of the planes that are going to exist in our world.
We're also putting together a houserules/suggested rules book(let) that we suggest is put to good use for this adventure and any/all others to come.We realize there is a great deal of work to be done, but we're up for the challenge and hope what we manage to put together will be of a high enough quality to be enjoyed and not scrutinized too much ;-).
As far as the setting goes; it allows PCs to be involved in things I'm fairly certain haven't been done before (at least not by many).
I'm glad to see a fair amount of support for 3PP out there... makes me much less stressed about any futility I was harboring.
Question for players: would you prefer dungeon/battle maps to be squares or hex?
I don't use much in the way of 3rd party stuff. Not because it's not any good (it's often very good) but because I find I have enough to keep my interests with core stuff. There are a few things that I would like to see though:
1) Interesting prestige classes.
2) Alchemical items
3) Well written, and interesting adventures, for all levels of play (Possibly ones that can be part of an adventure path of some sort, not necessarily as detailed as Paizo's but ones that are meant to be played alone but can be put together to make a coherent campaign.)
4) One-shot adventures that are meant to be played in 3-4 hours
5) New or interesting takes on current creatures. For example, in a campaign I ran, minotaur were only male. They would raid towns for females so they could continue their species. Some towns saw this as an honor and some as terror.
I do enjoy reading third party stuff and the more interesting the fluff, the more likely I am to buy it.
I have and in a lot of cases I'm not impressed. I won't touch SGG with an eleven foot pole, for example. The Genius Guide to Ice Magic was the first thing that turned me off their work. The blatant use of a porn star to advertise the Thief of Time was a significant black mark, but that has nothing to do with the quality of the mechanics, I'll admit.
I have had a brief look at LPG Design and the stuff in the blog doesn't fill me with enthusiasm for their work.
Maybe I'm just horribly jaded. There are some things in core products that are just as bad as the things I've seen there. Okay, maybe not as bad as the Time Thief 'art', but that's a special case.
I have and in a lot of cases I'm not impressed. I won't touch SGG with an eleven foot pole, for example. The Genius Guide to Ice Magic was the first thing that turned me off their work. The blatant use of a porn star to advertise the Thief of Time was a significant black mark, but that has nothing to do with the quality of the mechanics, I'll admit.
I have had a brief look at LPG Design and the stuff in the blog doesn't fill me with enthusiasm for their work.
Maybe I'm just horribly jaded. There are some things in core products that are just as bad as the things I've seen there. Okay, maybe not as bad as the Time Thief 'art', but that's a special case.
Not trying to be argumentative, but what does art have to do with the mechanical viability of a product?
Not trying to be argumentative, but what does art have to do with the mechanical viability of a product?
I already admitted that it doesn't. It just turns me off the product and the people behind it.
The blatant use of a porn star to advertise the Thief of TimeHOW DID I MISS THIS?!
quick search showed me that the model on that book was in some TV shows and actually has a membername here... weird
Veronic F
The blatant use of a porn star to advertise the Thief of TimeHOW DID I MISS THIS?!
Not sure, but it's a great SGG product, and not because Jenny/Veronic is on the cover (though that doesn't bother me - we're working with her as well on a non-Pathfinder product for later this year).
The blatant use of a porn star to advertise the Thief of TimeHOW DID I MISS THIS?!
I guess some of us have different definition of the term porn star. But in this specific instance, the model is also a fan who does play Pathfinder.
C'est la vie. In the meantime, pass me some more cheesecake!
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I think that there is a fair number of consumers who look at 3pp products as a viable commodity. I'll point you to Dark Mistress here on the boards as an example, who makes reviewing and skimming 3pp products look like a full time job.so basically if it's put together well and isn't broken, doesnt suck, and isnt super abusable, people could/would use it
i only ask because a few of us are developing a number of different things and are wondering what the reception of such products would be
You called?
You called?
Gah! Stop sneaking up on people!
Not trying to be argumentative, but what does art have to do with the mechanical viability of a product?I already admitted that it doesn't. It just turns me off the product and the people behind it.
Alright. I can easily accept a gut reaction as a turnoff to a product or company. Not every reason needs to be grounded in logic to be viable. Thank you for the reply!
back on topic please? (although i like the cover)
back on topic please? (although i like the cover)
Ok, more 3PP I've made use of - Tricky Owlbear, Purple Duck, and SGG. Really, there's few I've not pulled at least one or two things from.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Rathendar, I'll admit that I judge a role-playing product on the cover art, and I'll stand behind that policy. For example, I've never seen a product with below-contemporary-standards art on the cover, but solid game mechanics and evocative imaginative writing inside. I haven't seen the cover art in question, but if it features a live model, very lightly dressed, I'd consider the product to be appealing to the sort of young gamer who likes "girlie" publications, and I'm pretty sure I'm not in that demographic.
To the original question: I don't.
I don't run my home campaign (post-apocalypse, set in the Okeefenokee) under Pathfinder rules, so 3rd-party PFRPG materials set in a medieval fantasy world wouldn't be helpful. Most of my gaming friends are happy to run D&D 3.5.
My only connection to the Pathfinder rule-set is through the Pathfinder Society Organized Play environment, where 3rd-party materials aren't allowed.
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The blatant use of a porn star to advertise the Thief of TimeHOW DID I MISS THIS?!I guess some of us have different definition of the term porn star. But in this specific instance, the model is also a fan who does play Pathfinder.
C'est la vie. In the meantime, pass me some more cheesecake!
I find it funny that people are objecting to her doing non-nude modeling. If they think the explicit work is bad, shouldn't they want her to get 'legitimate' work and stop the other work?
I guess some of us have different definition of the term porn star. But in this specific instance, the model is also a fan who does play Pathfinder.
C'est la vie. In the meantime, pass me some more cheesecake!
Google her name. Don't do it with the kids around. NSFW to hell and back.
To the original question: I don't.
I don't run my home campaign (post-apocalypse, set in the Okeefenokee) under Pathfinder rules, so 3rd-party PFRPG materials set in a medieval fantasy world wouldn't be helpful. Most of my gaming friends are happy to run D&D 3.5.
My only connection to the Pathfinder rule-set is through the Pathfinder Society Organized Play environment, where 3rd-party materials aren't allowed.
and yet you're on the Pathfinder forums?... ok
Does WotC count as "third party"? 'cos I'm using some 3.5 and 4E material in my PF campaign at the moment.
I offered my players the option of the Warlord from Tome of Secrets, but nobody was interested.
I also use Hero Labs for just about everything and I love it to death. Math and I have a shaky peace at best, so I let the computer take care of my number crunching.
-The Gneech
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Just looking for somewhat of a rough estimate of why any/all of you guys play with third party content, and if you've found it to be a valuable experience or not
I do and 3pp is the number one reason I and my group stuck with 3.x DnD and now Pathfinder. Look all games have good and bad about them. No matter how great a game is or how great a company is. They just can not cover all possible idea's. That's where 3pp come in, they can offer options. Like the idea of a witch but Paizo's APG version doesn't do it for you? Try one of the 3pp ones. Like the idea of a holy warrior but don't want a LG paladin? Try one of the 3pp classes.
Plus they often cover niches that interest me or others that is just not profitable enough for a company like Paizo to do. Want a book on a creepy old grim tales type setting? Well there's a 3pp book for that. Want a book about undersea campaigns and adventures? Well there is a 3pp book for that. Want a book where staves and wands enhance your magic as you cast it, instead of having their own spells? Well there is a book for that. Want a more complex combat system? etc you get the point.
The point is Paizo can only make so much and they need to focus on what will sell best. 3pp doesn't have to sell as much(though they would like to I am sure), so they can focus on niche products or alterative products that fewer people would be interested in. But for those that like them it enriches their games and keeps them fresh.
Now with all that said you have to do what most do. Buy the ones you want, decided which parts you want to allow in your games. But as Hunter said that's true of paizo too. I don't always allow everything they put out in all my games.
So to 3pp is a must, with out it. Eventually i would tire of DnD/Pathfinder and move onto other games for something new. As it is now I can mix and match and more easily customize my games with out making it all myself.
I find it funny that people are objecting to her doing non-nude modeling. If they think the explicit work is bad, shouldn't they want her to get 'legitimate' work and stop the other work?
That's actually a good point. I hadn't thought of that. I've been spending most of my time being the stereotypical indignant female upset at all the male gamers going 'hurr hurr boobs' (Those things must have DR 10/adamantine, by the way).
I have had a brief look at LPG Design and the stuff in the blog doesn't fill me with enthusiasm for their work.
I've had some ex-girlfriends say that about me. Try one of our free products. It doesn't cost you and if it sucks you didn't spend any money on it, so it is a win-win.
Google her name. Don't do it with the kids around. NSFW to hell and back.
I think what he's getting at - and I agree - is that we are fully aware of the material she's produced, film or photos, and still have a different definition of "porn star". She's also a friend of mine, and I think the world of her and support whatever she wants to do. :)
Does WotC count as "third party"? 'cos I'm using some 3.5 and 4E material in my PF campaign at the moment.
Don't know if you meant that to be funny, but I nearly fell out of my chair laughing. :D That's the best thing I've read all week!
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I find it funny that people are objecting to her doing non-nude modeling. If they think the explicit work is bad, shouldn't they want her to get 'legitimate' work and stop the other work?That's actually a good point. I hadn't thought of that. I've been spending most of my time being the stereotypical indignant female upset at all the male gamers going 'hurr hurr boobs' (Those things must have DR 10/adamantine, by the way).
Yay, I made sense for once! :) I wasn't sure what the reasoning behind it was, so I tried to be oblique about it.
I don't use much in the way of 3rd party stuff. Not because it's not any good (it's often very good) but because I find I have enough to keep my interests with core stuff. There are a few things that I would like to see though:
1) Interesting prestige classes.
2) Alchemical items
3) Well written, and interesting adventures, for all levels of play (Possibly ones that can be part of an adventure path of some sort, not necessarily as detailed as Paizo's but ones that are meant to be played alone but can be put together to make a coherent campaign.)
4) One-shot adventures that are meant to be played in 3-4 hours
5) New or interesting takes on current creatures. For example, in a campaign I ran, minotaur were only male. They would raid towns for females so they could continue their species. Some towns saw this as an honor and some as terror.I do enjoy reading third party stuff and the more interesting the fluff, the more likely I am to buy it.
im a fan of this post... thank you