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What separates this character from another BBEG for the party to defeat?
Killing "other evil guys" doesn't make someone good. Evil guys kill each other all the time.
Would the party all cheer or feel relief if this character died?
If this character wasn't in the party, and they encountered him in a dark dungeon where he was manufacturing his trench coat from faces of other evil creatures, how would they deal with him?
Usually the question about "is this evil" comes up because someone wants to Smite something, or Detect Evil. If this was an NPC, it would be tough not to allow the smite, or not to register a faint aura here.
When I think of CN, I think of a Wemic or a Wild Elf. Sure they might make a necklace out of teeth as a primitive custom. They'd get a decent circumstance penalty in civilized areas if they wore their necklace.
There's an alignment system somewhere where you can be something akin to C3E10 which is 3 clicks Chaotic, and 10 clicks Evil. When determining alignment, I tend to look at a system similar to this. It only takes CnE1 to register as evil. Using a system like this, you can't be "truly neutral". You could be CxG1 or CxE1 where you are the slightest click to good or evil.
Are you out for your own gain at the expense of others, or just out for your own gain? Will you actively hurt others to further yourself or your own pleasure? When debating neutral vs evil, these are the 2 questions I always ask.
This is the key in my games also.
Is he also a kender? He sounds like the type who would make a kender. Does he ever comment about how hilarious it is to be SO RANDUMB XD?That is uncalled for Kender can be RPed well.
I have yet to hear a good* Kender story. When the word is mentioned the player's faces fill with fury. I am not saying its not possible, but the typical kender is nothing short of annoying.
*good in the sense that people did want to strange the kender and the player.
Edit: 3 supporters of kender in one thread. I might have to start checking aliases. :)
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What separates this character from another BBEG for the party to defeat?Killing "other evil guys" doesn't make someone good. Evil guys kill each other all the time.
Would the party all cheer or feel relief if this character died?
If this character wasn't in the party, and they encountered him in a dark dungeon where he was manufacturing his trench coat from faces of other evil creatures, how would they deal with him?
Usually the question about "is this evil" comes up because someone wants to Smite something, or Detect Evil. If this was an NPC, it would be tough not to allow the smite, or not to register a faint aura here.
When I think of CN, I think of a Wemic or a Wild Elf. Sure they might make a necklace out of teeth as a primitive custom. They'd get a decent circumstance penalty in civilized areas if they wore their necklace.
There's an alignment system somewhere where you can be something akin to C3E10 which is 3 clicks Chaotic, and 10 clicks Evil. When determining alignment, I tend to look at a system similar to this. It only takes CnE1 to register as evil. Using a system like this, you can't be "truly neutral". You could be CxG1 or CxE1 where you are the slightest click to good or evil.
Of course they would mourn my loss! Just because I'm crazy doesn't mean I don't have friends. They'd miss me. And I told them if they killed me I'd roll up a sullen two-weapon fighting ranger who has been expelled from his home for being different and is now moody.
If they met me in the darkness...they couldn't kill me because I'm a player and there is no PVP combat allowed at our gaming table. Schemeing, yes, murder no. Also, darkness grants concealment, so I'm pretty sure Chimichanga would have the advantage. So I'd win.
And they aren't just faces, they're SMILING faces. I DID tell them they'd be much happier on my coat than they were in life.
What sets me apart from the BBEGs I kill? I'm not evil, I don't kill innocent people, I have saved a few lives, the list goes on. So I have a fetish for wearing the most dangerous game, so what? It may be a bit evil, but is it EVIL? I didn't know fashion sense was a crime.
A well played kender is like a child. If handled well the crazy little bastard is very useful. Think about your kids and use the same techiques of manipulations to control them. If you need some thing stolen show it to the kender it as likey to be stolen as returned. Also kender must be played by some one you can handle the race. Few gamers fit that last.
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Is he also a kender? He sounds like the type who would make a kender. Does he ever comment about how hilarious it is to be SO RANDUMB XD?That is uncalled for Kender can be RPed well.I have yet to hear a good* Kender story. When the word is mentioned the player's faces fill with fury. I am not saying its not possible, but the typical kender is nothing short of annoying.
*good in the sense that people did want to strange the kender and the player.
Edit: 3 supporters of kender in one thread. I might have to start checking aliases. :)
I assure you that I am not those other two... :) Up until my last player, I had only had bad experiences with kender, but it took a good friend of mine that has two young children to capture the essence of what I believe a kender was truly supposed to be... ^_^
WTF is a kender?
WTF is a kender?
"You lucky, lucky man"
Kender info here and Also here and here as well
"Now as spreading knowledge of kender is an a unholy and act of the most unspeakable evil, I think I just made my quota for this quarter, In fact this along with the holy avengers I gave away may put me up for next quarter as well. A Demon lords job is just never done "
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WTF is a kender?"You lucky, lucky man"
Kender info here and Also here and here as well
"Now as spreading knowledge of kender is an a unholy and act of the most unspeakable evil, I think I just made my quota for this quarter, In fact this along with the holy avengers I gave away may put me up for next quarter as well. A Demon lords job is just never done "
Chaotic AND Evil! Way to demonstrate a point man!!! ^_^
Ok, so you purposely put a greeting gesture on the tip of your spear? That sounds like you are trying to insult the people you attack, a mildly evil act.
The tricking the evil wizard I can see as any alignment. Removing competition (evil), removing an enemy who will harm you (neutral), removing an evil threat to the common-folk (good). Taking the spear and then dismissing it seems like greedy & opportunistic behavior, once again mildly evil.
The more you talk, the more I would put your character right on the verge between evil and neutral. I think he can fall on either side. I would understand a GM adjusting your alignment, but personally wouldn't yet.
Is elimiating competition evil?
I run a company in real life and there are some competitors that we have driven almost completely out of business. (OK, they were snake oil people, but still)
I mislead my competitors all the time.
That's just good business.
I wouldn't mislead my customers, but I let my competiton hang in the wind.
As one of my staff said:
"Crush your competion...see them penniless before you...and hear the lamentations of their Managers. That is best!"
In my games, most of my merchants are evil... At least the successful ones.
Eliminating competition in this matter I meant more in A. Killing, B. people who will summon the demons you want to summon, C. People whose stuff you want, like spellbooks.
"No, no. The swords where just cheap abyssal iron katanas I just etched "Holy avenger" on em and made sure they looked and detected right is all. Man it took a while to place em like Easter eggs all over the place I'll tell ya that. I don't think I missed a forgotten temple, ruin, decrepit graveyard, feast-hall or brothel in three worlds"
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I am assuming that the OP is asking the question from the perspective of a GM adjudicating whether to force the player to change his alignment to CE from CN?
If you are looking at it from a fellow player perspective, they would see:
1- someone who knows or claims to know what is a delicacy in the Abyss, an evil plane, and wants to share it with others.
2- Wears dead faces on his clothes, and yes there is something far more disturbing about wearing a face vs a fingerbone, tooth, or even ear.
3- Carries a demon hand openly.
Unless this character is a demon hunter who is the absolute paragon of Lawful Goodness and oozes love and kindness, I would think any civilized good-aligned character would see them as either evil, or wanting to be thought of as evil. Even if they did not detect as evil, if I were a fellow player, I would assume they were so close to the edge of becoming evil that a slight breeze would push them over.
That being said, more primitive characters, like wild druids, barbarians, witches, etc, might not perceive them that way, just because their cultural mores are a bit more permissive with body part wearing.
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I am assuming that the OP is asking the question from the perspective of a GM adjudicating whether to force the player to change his alignment to CE from CN?
If you are looking at it from a fellow player perspective, they would see:
1- someone who knows or claims to know what is a delicacy in the Abyss, an evil plane, and wants to share it with others.
2- Wears dead faces on his clothes, and yes there is something far more disturbing about wearing a face vs a fingerbone, tooth, or even ear.
3- Carries a demon hand openly.Unless this character is a demon hunter who is the absolute paragon of Lawful Goodness and oozes love and kindness, I would think any civilized good-aligned character would see them as either evil, or wanting to be thought of as evil. Even if they did not detect as evil, if I were a fellow player, I would assume they were so close to the edge of becoming evil that a slight breeze would push them over.
That being said, more primitive characters, like wild druids, barbarians, witches, etc, might not perceive them that way, just because their cultural mores are a bit more permissive with body part wearing.
Woe be to those who seek to harm me. Remember, CN has no qualms about killing things that attack them without provocation no matter what they claim to be.
You look evil, therefore I smite you, also your choice of leather is in bad taste...isn't good enough an excuse. They have the right to be appalled, but that is it.
I would have to say man your damned close to Evil if ya have not drifted over yet.
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CN is a challenge to play and shouldn't be an excuse to be disruptive or out of control. As a player you still have to work within a group.
CH shouldn't be too far removed from CG. Whilst you value the lives of innocents, you aren't going to risk your own skin for them. A CG character would step in and help a slave being beat by his master. A CN character may or may not, depending on his mood.
A CN character has little regard for the law and values person freedom. He/she believes the end justifies the means. He/she is not necessarily criminally insane and if I was DMing I certainly wouldn't too enthusiastic about someone playing a character who was.
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You look evil, therefore I smite you, also your choice of leather is in bad taste...isn't good enough an excuse. They have the right to be appalled, but that is it
Well, first off, I didn't suggest that your character should be killed or attacked because they are evil, just viewed as such with all the presumptions and prejudice. Of course, this is from a roleplaying perspective assuming that your world's basic mores were reasonably close to the typical european middle ages fantasy "norm". If this same character were hanging out in Kaer Maga for example, hes just your average joe, but then, most people in Kaer Maga aren't good aligned either.
Walking around a street in Magnimar or Andoran with a 10 year old kid in chains on a leash is going to be offensive and piss a lot of people off, who are going to view you as "not good". Doing the same thing in Katapesh might not raise an eyebrow. As a player I usually take my cues from the DM as to the morals of a world when I play neutral characters, but good on the other hand is usually considered a lot more "black and white".
Calling wearing skinned faces bad taste in leather sounds like something Hannibal Lecter would say honestly, and certainly not how your average society would view his apparel. Your character sounds very interesting and certainly would be very entertaining to play with from a player to player perspective, but if I were a good character in your party, I would find him very disturbing... like sleep with one eye open and hope that eventually he goes far away or is eaten by something disturbing :)
While I see the character as wacked, he just doesn't really strike me as evil.
Creepy, sure. Evil, no.
If he started specifically *looking* for bad things to add to his coat, that would push it over the line. At that point you are no longer just mutilating corpses, you are actively searching for things to turn in to corpses so you can mutilate them.
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You look evil, therefore I smite you, also your choice of leather is in bad taste...isn't good enough an excuse. They have the right to be appalled, but that is itWell, first off, I didn't suggest that your character should be killed or attacked because they are evil, just viewed as such with all the presumptions and prejudice. Of course, this is from a roleplaying perspective assuming that your world's basic mores were reasonably close to the typical european middle ages fantasy "norm". If this same character were hanging out in Kaer Maga for example, hes just your average joe, but then, most people in Kaer Maga aren't good aligned either.
Walking around a street in Magnimar or Andoran with a 10 year old kid in chains on a leash is going to be offensive and piss a lot of people off, who are going to view you as "not good". Doing the same thing in Katapesh might not raise an eyebrow. As a player I usually take my cues from the DM as to the morals of a world when I play neutral characters, but good on the other hand is usually considered a lot more "black and white".
Calling wearing skinned faces bad taste in leather sounds like something Hannibal Lecter would say honestly, and certainly not how your average society would view his apparel. Your character sounds very interesting and certainly would be very entertaining to play with from a player to player perspective, but if I were a good character in your party, I would find him very disturbing... like sleep with one eye open and hope that eventually he goes far away or is eaten by something disturbing :)
Did you know they have leashes for children for sale now? I'm completely serious. They put them on leashes when they go to the store, I s!## you not.
And Chimichanga would never eat children, now. I beat the taste of child flesh out of his mouth for licking my adoring fans. It's going to be hell when I give him acid claws though. All of my gold will be going to buying new sofas.
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While I see the character as wacked, he just doesn't really strike me as evil.
Creepy, sure. Evil, no.
If he started specifically *looking* for bad things to add to his coat, that would push it over the line. At that point you are no longer just mutilating corpses, you are actively searching for things to turn in to corpses so you can mutilate them.
Funnily enough, bad things seem to find him. Such is the life of an adventurer. If only he could have gotten the face of that Babau, though. It dissipated back into the hell it came from before I could do anything :(
Also, it sneak attacked me! I was trying to be nice and trade my figurine of wonderous power for his spear, but he ended up breaking out of the circle and sqewering me before I could seal the deal. It cost him his life, as he forgot that I have a spear too. Shouting the traditional Osirian war cry of FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH Que!, I didth slew it. And the land rejoiced, and joyness reigned. Verily, ye.
Evil is as evil does. Being a prick is not evil if it was then Mr. Fishy would be the Devil. Wearing the skin of the fallen is evil or not. No wishy-washy cop outs. Wearing your enemies is evil or not.
The act is "less" evil if the victim is on the "list of evil"???
WTF?
Want to piss off a Fishy call on the "list of evil" to justify an action. Evil is evil for everyone and hiding behind "they were evil" is the Pot murdering the Kettle.To the OP your character is a jackass but not Evil. Evil would kill the bard and add the face to his Coat of Many Colors. Has the GM called you out on your alignment.
I disagree (not with the whole lot of this (Kudos Mr Fishy) rather the highlighted section.
Evil characters still have a sense of self preservation and are run by a metagaming player. the bard probably lives because A) the bard is probably the same level and can probably dish out an equal portion of revenge - not to mention the other character may also have an issue with murder and B) the player will just make a new character and may get his 'revenge' later on. I doubt the Bard is alive for any reason involving morals.
Also, Facecoats....that's just wrong.
Batts
(and facecoats are still wrong)
I like the line of reasoning staying that:
picture what you would think of the BBEG doing that action(s) and then see if you still think they are fine to do.
As for Kender.. every single one i've ever seen has been an attempt to wildly and blindly steal for personal gain all under the guise of their racial klepto tendencies.. and therefore I adopted the simple procedure of killing them on sight.
As the DM.
True, I was alot newer to the game then and alot less mature.. but I haven't seen a kender yet who didn't deserve to be treated in that time treasured fashion.
-S
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I'm in the Chaotic Neutral camp myself. What he does is sometimes creepy, but if he didn't actually seek these creatures out to harvest the skin, then it's just a gruesome trophy. I once played a barbarian who had the habit of eating the heart of a worthy vanquished foe, to gain his strength. Was this a disgusting habit? The elven spellthief sure thought so, but I still have a hard time calling it evil.
On the tangent, advocating genocide of any sentient race, especially one that hasn't done anything wrong (really!) is evil. I may be a sock puppet, but I am not the sock puppet of any other Kender booster here.
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I guess the larger question is why are you asking? Are you looking to begin a spirited debate regarding alignment? (which i personally have no objection to--it's fun :D) Or does this have potential in-game ramifications? (aside from the fact that your character walks around in a buffalo bob(bill?) style cape)
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I guess the larger question is why are you asking? Are you looking to begin a spirited debate regarding alignment? (which i personally have no objection to--it's fun :D) Or does this have potential in-game ramifications? (aside from the fact that your character walks around in a buffalo bob(bill?) style cape)
Oh, I'm just having fun with an off-the-wall character. However, the DM has stated if we ever get transported to Ravenloft, it will all be my fault. And I'll have issues there.
I love how most people seem to think that GOOD is how people naturally are, and treat CN as an excuse to act however they feel.
Look at the typical frontier; full of people trying to make it on their own sweat and merit, exempt from supervision, taxes and rules that deprive them of freedom. People who think that your wits and your own strength is the most reliable defense, and that no man should answer to another without choosing to do so themselves. THIS is to me how you should play a CN character.
In my campains, neutrality is acting like a regular human being, chaotic ones favoring freedoms, individuality and personal merit, while the lawful ones favor tradition, stability and an orderly community. Being evil is easy, as it is simply to disregard ethics and good virtues for your own gain, however "just/justified" YOU might think these actions to be (in his own eyes, Hitler was saving Germany from financial ruin, and crafting a better future for his people). And actually being GOOD in my campain requires people to stop and think about what they are doing, and actively seek to do well for all parties involved, even the ones you initially do not like.
Example1:
I cautioned them that killing someone who acted under the influence of insanity, without a chance to redeem themselves is an evil act. Bickering ensued. "Well you obviously have a different take on what is good than we do". Whereupon I shrugged and pointed out that I am wearing the GM hat. (Also, being college-educated child protection service worker with extensive knowledge of ethics, morals and psychology made me feel validated in this decision)
Example2: There is a rogue character in my Kingmaker campain, who set his alignment to True Neutral. He is the spymaster of the kingdom, and in the early parts he was callously murdering incapacitated NPCs he thought might be troublesome for the kingdom or group later on. I said that if he doesn't research his kills properly, and made sure the guys he kills are evil people who will do more harm if let loose again, I will soon force him to change to NE. So far he is been keeping the balance nicely, and been a better spymaster for it.
Short and simple: If you use CN as an excuse to be a psycho, you are really CE.
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I don't see how robbing the face of a corpse so you can glory in wearing it as clothing is a good OR a neutral act. In most societies (including the one I live in and the one in which the writers of the game live in) defiling a corpse is considered evil.Making a trenchcoat out of skinned faces taken from BBEGs: EvilEven if they're already dead? It's not like he kept em in a hole and made them lotion themselves up for awhile before he skinned em...While I do agree with you, doesn't it also depend on the culture of the character?
What if it is the norm for a barbarian (not the class, but the "culture") people to take the ears of slain enemies and wear them as a necklace. Is this then the same as saying all people from that culture are evil? What if they do it to remember and honor their enemies?
Intent. One doing it to honor an enemy and another doing it for the lulz are very different moral dimensions.
Kind of goes back to the OP. Exactly why is he defiling corpses and making a grim spectacle of himself?
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Calling wearing skinned faces bad taste in leather sounds like something Hannibal Lecter would say honestly, and certainly not how your average society would view his apparel. Your character sounds very interesting and certainly would be very entertaining to play with from a player to player perspective, but if I were a good character in your party, I would find him very disturbing... like sleep with one eye open and hope that eventually he goes far away or is eaten by something disturbing :)
Dr. Lecter would never do something so crass, he simply makes a delicacy from those he kills. Pay attention to who he kills btw....
You also have to consider alignment as a moving target, so whatever you may believe per your own customs, will change when you experience other cultures. So just because your customs and/or culture may not view a particular act as evil, this may change as your character progresses. Therefore, your alignment can not be a veil for ignorance, or an excuse to continue practices, that in the long run, will change your alignment.
I also agree the best role played kender are treated like children, I often view chaotic neutral to be along the same lines, and are not constrained by society. Feral, or wild backgrounds fit this as well.
Ok, so you purposely put a greeting gesture on the tip of your spear? That sounds like you are trying to insult the people you attack, a mildly evil act.
The tricking the evil wizard I can see as any alignment. Removing competition (evil), removing an enemy who will harm you (neutral), removing an evil threat to the common-folk (good). Taking the spear and then dismissing it seems like greedy & opportunistic behavior, once again mildly evil.
The more you talk, the more I would put your character right on the verge between evil and neutral. I think he can fall on either side. I would understand a GM adjusting your alignment, but personally wouldn't yet.
Is elimiating competition evil?
I run a company in real life and there are some competitors that we have driven almost completely out of business. (OK, they were snake oil people, but still)
I mislead my competitors all the time.
That's just good business.
I wouldn't mislead my customers, but I let my competiton hang in the wind.
As one of my staff said:
"Crush your competion...see them penniless before you...and hear the lamentations of their Managers. That is best!"
Evil in general is about creating more harm than good. Competition isn't evil if its above board, and isn't in the extreme (extreme being that it leads to criminal activity). Providing a service to your customers isn't evil. Rightfully telling them your service is better than the other guys isn't evil. Lying to your customers to make a profit ... that's at least a little evil, because it takes advantage of them. But then there is a lot of grey area here.
The store I work at has a lot of great products, but there are still some that I don't think are good. I don't call that to the customer's attention. If they ask me about something I don't like, I just say "its not for me, but some people like it for this reason ..."
There is something to be said about personal responsibility. However if you were lying about products that are unsafe? that would be trying to make a profit on something that harms the customer. Both evil and bad business.
Kender do not steal things of "value" they steal worthless things
things Kender steal
a rock off of a trail, a key, a map, the trash receptacle, feathers, chalk, flint & steel (or just one of the two), boot laces, a spoon, maybe a dagger, holy water, thunderstones, tindertwigs, smokesticks, tanglefoot bags, brightly colored beads, chicken bones, a sling.......Kender never take things of value (on purpose).......
Smokestick 20 gp
Thunderstone 30 gpTanglefoot Bag 50 gp
Not worthless, especially if a character is low level.
If a Kender can refrain from stealing from the party, they must do so or face the consequences.
If a Kender truly can't help himself, why should any character adventure with him ?
If a Kender can refrain from stealing from the party, they must do so or face the consequences.
If a Kender truly can't help himself, why should any character adventure with him ?
Maybe the kender's a decent guy that you get along with... you just have to go through his bag every once in a while to find the stuff that was in your bag but isn't any longer. There's plenty of reasons, in character, to adventure with someone who tends to collect stuff that isn't his.
Anyone recall that sign on the rock of bral?
"Your responsible for the actions of your kender"
Still makes me laugh
What Would Conan Do?
Clearly he would crush his enemies, have them driven before him, and hear the lamentations of their women.
I would think this character is CN with evil tendencies. I would also let the player know that the character is close to the line to CE.
I do use this as the definition of CN though:
Chaotic Neutral, “Free Spirit”
A chaotic neutral character follows their whims. They are an individualist first and last. They value their own liberty but don’t strive to protect others’ freedom. They avoid authority, resent restrictions, and challenge traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, they would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those different from them suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but their behaviour is not totally random. They are not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it.
Chaotic neutral is the best alignment you can be because it represents true freedom from both society’s restrictions and a do-gooder’s zeal.
I'm thinking I might need to make a little sidebar about the differences between similar alignments(LG to LE, N to NE, CG to CN, CN to CE, etc...) for my campaign setting. I'll have to sit down and mull this over...
The way I look at the good <-> evil alignment axis is this.
A good person will go out of his way to help others, even at risk or cost to himself. A good person also won't harm others unless he has a good reason, such as self defense.
A neutral person won't usually go out of his way to help others, unless there's some benefit to him or little risk to himself. He may put himself on the line for a good friend or loved one, but he's unlikely to intervene to help people he doesn't care about. He also won't harm others without cause, though he may still be motiviated to harm others out of revenge.
An evil person will usually never help others unless there's some benefit to himself for doing so. He also has no compunctions about harming others, even innocents, to get what he wants.
Here's an analogy:
The good person will go help someone being murdered, even at risk to himself.
The neutral person won't usually help the person being murdered, unless there's little risk to himself, he's motivated by a reward, he's duty bound to do so, or it's someone he personally cares about. For someone he doesn't know, he may at least alert the police, but he's not likely to stick his own neck out for a stranger.
The evil person is the one doing the murder.
The Taco Bell and chimichanga references are just annoying to me as a DM and I'd blackball the character on those grounds alone.
Other than that, the character seems like a sociopath, which is pretty much the definition of CE. The coat of BBEG faces is obviously an attempt to freak the mundanes, as is the business of giving rats as hostess gifts. Let him learn that two can play at that game.
Let the party encounter someone who I'd call the Unflappable Duchess, an exquisite mistress of etiquette who would accept the rat with delight at such a thoughtful delicacy and get him to accept the best her servants have to offer in return: exfoliation with the finest salt (as is the custom in the Abyss's next layer, Mar-gar-Itiv-Ille), rubbing the fresh skin with lime and alcohol until he says the ritual safeword ("It burns, mommy! It burns!") and while that is being done, incinerating the face coat (those are so last season), and presenting him with a beautiful new Shirt of the Leech. No, not one of the items from the Magic Items Compendium. We're talking the original: a straightjacket with a thousand inner pockets each holding a leech.
Then ask him to come up with a character with a motivation beyond being annoying and disruptive.