Goblin Squad Member
|
The answer to the orginial question then seems to be confirmed: you need a tent to declare war.
So,
Army Shelter Half = I can punch you in the nose
Pup Tent = Tag Team Wrestling Match
Eight Man Tent = Bar Room Brawl
General Purpose (GP) Small = Skirmishes Only
GP Medium = War Bands Fight
GP Large = Settlement Goes Haywire
Ringling Brothers = All Out War!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The answer to the orginial question then seems to be confirmed: you need a tent to declare war.
Has it been confirmed that a settlement is all that's required to declare war? I thought they had said there was a minimum DI. Particularly since they've said there's a minimum DI that requires a PVP window.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I bet that there will be a minimum DI to build siege engines, and that DI will require a very large PvP window. If you can drop an aggressor below that DI, then they have to buy what could be the most expensive equipment from a supplier.
Ideally, the building which builds siege equipment will be possible to destroy or disable without it. That would create a big gap between "able to declare war" and "able to wage an offensive".
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Has it been confirmed that a settlement is all that's required to declare war? I thought they had said there was a minimum DI. Particularly since they've said there's a minimum DI that requires a PVP window.
The answer to the orginial question then seems to be confirmed: you need a tent to declare war.
There is no explicit dev confirmation and everything is subject to change. The balancing will happen sometime during EE when settlements and warfare is implemented.
However my clear understanding of the PvP window is that while higher DI requires larger windows, there is nothing to stop you from opening the window earlier. So, even if you require a PvP window set (which makes tremendous sense), that should be possible with a tent. A tent means you claim a hex and are part of the territorial warfare game.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
If memory serves claiming land in RL and where that plot has no previous claim upon it requires a permanent structure, but in practice that can be as simple as stacking stones one atop another at the corners of the area you claim.
The settlement is a permanent structure (or collection thereof) - it's just the administration building that starts out as a tent. Presumably there's houses and stuff around it, and not just a lone tent in the wilderness laughably calling itself a settlement :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
If memory serves claiming land in RL and where that plot has no previous claim upon it requires a permanent structure, but in practice that can be as simple as stacking stones one atop another at the corners of the area you claim.The settlement is a permanent structure (or collection thereof) - it's just the administration building that starts out as a tent. Presumably there's houses and stuff around it, and not just a lone tent in the wilderness laughably calling itself a settlement :)
The settlements of the Plains Indians begin with the first tent being placed, followed by a few others. None of the structures never quite become permanent, even at the maximum growth or complexity of the settlement.
@Being
Your memory is not serving you well or your own region has very different laws. I have at least 4 lots of land, surrounding my home that have no structure or stand of stones, and yet they are privately owned property that still require the payment of property taxes, based solely on land value.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...@Being
Your memory is not serving you well or your own region has very different laws. I have at least 4 lots of land, surrounding my home that have no structure or stand of stones, and yet they are privately owned property that still require the payment of property taxes, based solely on land value.
Those plots were previously owned, were they not? If they were your case does not fit the parameters I set.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The settlements of the Plains Indians begin with the first tent being placed, followed by a few others. None of the structures never quite become permanent, even at the maximum growth or complexity of the settlement.
And a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step - but you'd not find anyone who will believe you if you say you have a 1000-mile stride.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
All land is owned by someone or by the government, there are no unclaimed, trackless wastelands or undiscovered countries left in North America (USA), but I can't speak for N.A. Canada or Mexico.
Perhaps back in the early to mid 1800's you could still find unclaimed land, but once the lower 48 were made states, even that was gone. I'll research a bit and see if any unclaimed land exists in statute, or if it is by default government land.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Unclaimed property can be the result of a death in the family, a move, or perhaps simple abandonment. Every state has laws set aside for claiming property after a period of three to five years. While banks, insurance companies and other firms are required to attempt a return to the owners, they might be unsuccessful. If they are, the property is turned over to the state's abandoned land or property department. Some states have land dating back to the late 1800's.
No mention in the instructions that you are required to have any sort of a structure or stand of stones, or planted a flag for that matter.... Just a form to be filled out requesting a deed for the unclaimed land.
For previously owned land, usually all you need to do is pay the back taxes on it, and t is yours. Just try to beat the banks to it!
One website jokingly suggested that some of the Bikini Atolls will be up for grabs in about 30 years!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
My reference was from old hill folk in the mountains of Western Carolina who described to me the way things were back in the old timey days. Fascinating stuff. We were out hunting ramps one spring and came across a cairn. I wondered aloud about it, and over a jar of white liquor they told me some of how things were done when the settlers first came.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I guess maybe I just have more trust in the developers...
Yeah, as I had to point out elsewhere, the developers aren't retarded.
The "Consensual War" is the one where two sides agree to allow combat between their members anywhere, anytime.
Then there's "War" where you're taking out a Settlement, which is quite a different thing.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Nihimon
Glad you are back. I have an idea for a thread for you to start. Something about misused and misunderstood PFO terminology. Also clearing up myths like PFO will only have one server, alignment drift will get you kicked from your CC, etc... Things that people are writing and getting others worked up, yet the things are not correct.
What do you think? Feel up to it? :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Nihimon
Glad you are back. I have an idea for a thread for you to start. Something about misused and misunderstood PFO terminology. Also clearing up myths like PFO will only have one server, alignment drift will get you kicked from your CC, etc... Things that people are writing and getting others worked up, yet the things are not correct.
What do you think? Feel up to it? :)
Thanks! It's nice to be missed :) As I've mentioned before, I'm usually a ghost (not Ghoste!) around here on the weekends.
I think that's a great idea for a wiki, and I hope ours does a reasonable job of it someday, but that's a tremendous amount of work. I've been hesitant to dive into that kind of project because of the shifting nature of the current design. It's virtually impossible to keep a document like that updated right now.
I'll bring it with Valkenr, Decius, and Skwiziks (the other Stewards of The Seventh Veil). I know Valkenr has been putting some work into the wiki lately, and there are other Scribes who aren't members of T7V who have also contributed a lot.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Nihimon
Glad you are back. I have an idea for a thread for you to start. Something about misused and misunderstood PFO terminology. Also clearing up myths like PFO will only have one server, alignment drift will get you kicked from your CC, etc... Things that people are writing and getting others worked up, yet the things are not correct.
What do you think? Feel up to it? :)
Where have you confirmed that PFO will have multiple servers?
Have you confirmed with the many, many CCs that they will not kick out newer members or long term members, who do not follow the CC's alignment or Reputation goals?
I'm pretty certain even Nihimon won't even venture a guess on those two points. Considering Ryan Dancey's background with EvE Online, I'd wager their intention is to go with one server. There will certainly be only one sever for EE, they have said that much already. There will also be only one server type, again based on what Ryan Dancey's position is on creating separate server types, which he roundly rejected.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
It's virtually impossible to prove a negative, since there's not usually going to be a post where Ryan comes out and says "PFO will not have all NPC dialog only in Klingon", for example. So, it's virtually impossible to prove that alignment shifts won't automatically kick you out of your CC. However, it is my understanding currently that there are no system-enforced alignment restrictions for groups or chartered companies.
As for the single server thing...
2) One server for all players.We want the largest possible servers. If we can get everyone into one, that's the ideal outcome.
So, the plan is to try to have a single server, but technical limitations might force them to evaluate other options.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
So, it's virtually impossible to prove that alignment shifts won't automatically kick you out of your CC. However, it is my understanding currently that there are no system-enforced alignment restrictions for groups or chartered companies.
As for the single server thing...
2) One server for all players.We want the largest possible servers. If we can get everyone into one, that's the ideal outcome.So, the plan is to try to have a single server, but technical limitations might force them to evaluate other options.
Nihimon, you are in fact a Myth Buster! Or whatever you call it when one claim is called a myth, and it is shown that it was in fact not a myth, and the assertion that it was a myth, becomes a myth itself......
It is really no one's fault. There is one much information, and changes, and conjecture, and not all Dev responses are clear cut, etc etc. it is hard to recall when, where and sometimes if something was written or said in the interviews.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Nihimon
Glad you are back. I have an idea for a thread for you to start. Something about misused and misunderstood PFO terminology. Also clearing up myths like PFO will only have one server, alignment drift will get you kicked from your CC, etc... Things that people are writing and getting others worked up, yet the things are not correct.
What do you think? Feel up to it? :)
Where have you confirmed that PFO will have multiple servers?
Have you confirmed with the many, many CCs that they will not kick out newer members or long term members, who do not follow the CC's alignment or Reputation goals?
I'm pretty certain even Nihimon won't even venture a guess on those two points. Considering Ryan Dancey's background with EvE Online, I'd wager their intention is to go with one server. There will certainly be only one sever for EE, they have said that much already. There will also be only one server type, again based on what Ryan Dancey's position is on creating separate server types, which he roundly rejected.
We are planning on putting some very basic game systems into this project which will allow us to begin testing various aspects of the game platform: servers, databases, the network layer, etc.
and this
The biggest reason the Beta is paid is that it is a real running MMO. We have bandwidth costs, server costs, a customer support team, and live operations to keep the servers online. We are running the Early Access period exactly the same way the final game will be run after Release, just on a smaller scale.
but there is always this
What you're about to read represents the current ideas in the game design. They're subject to change based on development, testing and community feedback. As always, we're interested in your suggestions and comments. Please let us know what you're thinking on the messageboards!
No I have confirmed nothing with the many, many CC's. The many, many CC's set their own alignment tolerances if they will be required. There is not a single word that I could find stating that CC's will have to set alignment parameters. Besides, the poster was concerned about being kicked from his friend's guild mostly. Would they allow him to be or stay kicked?
I am sure that you know Nihimon very well and that you can predict just what he will or won't do or speculate about.
That is truly amazing!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It is indeed truly amazing.... and true to Nihimon's form, he did not commit to a definitive answer, but instead posted a Dev response that he felt was relevant. You don't have to be amazing to predict that is what he would do, that is what he does.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
That is prolly what he was up to... on a Librassin mission.
I should sign up: My editor likely thinks I murder the English language already.
Your English seems great. Your choice of vocabulary and the way you put your sentences together may be a little above the understanding of the average (I.Q. 68) reader herein, however. I find it difficult, sometimes, to follow your meaning. Your subtle sarcasm and your subtext messages are difficult even for me (I.Q. 69). ;)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
It is indeed truly amazing.... and true to Nihimon's form, he did not commit to a definitive answer, but instead posted a Dev response that he felt was relevant. You don't have to be amazing to predict that is what he would do, that is what he does.
Gee Bluddwolf, I thought that people (Nihimon) would comprehend that when I wrote "correct" I meant correct as far as being confirmed our discounted by the Devs. Clearly, the first concept has been confused in their posts and the blog. The second concept has never had a single mention of an alignment requirement. It was the IDEA not the examples. Gee Bluddwolf, I am sorry that I did not explain that to you when I wrote that stuff.... Gee Bluddwolf, don't be mad.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I rarely if ever get mad.... Don't see why you felt that way. I was addressing the comment that it must be "amazing" to know what he would say. Not really, if you have been following his posts for these past few months, he tends to post a dev response that supports whatever he is making a point on. When there is no direct Dev response, he usually does not make a definitive statement.
He is far more measured than I am, but I don't mind making mistakes and having them pointed out.
BTW.... where did you write "correct" from your first line? I must have missed it, but I was not responding to that anyway.
I was just counter praising Nihimon for his efforts, deflecting the claim that I was some how amazing for predicting what he would write.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
'Servers' is subject to interpretation. A server farm can be running one instance which for the players' purposes is one big server. In terms of hardware it may be several physical server boxes.
This is my understanding of what Ryan means when he says "servers". A "single world server" running on many physical server computers, each hosting different services like chat.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I guess that my examples of "missinformation" and completely fabricated speculation were bad choices. The gist of my post was to ask someone that seems good at finding what has been written to clear up some of that. I have seen some threads go on for quite a long roll debating things that were claimed as "current content thinking" and were complete fabrication.
That is all well and good as EVERYTHING that we discuss is for an imaginary space and subject to change anyway. Still, it might be nice to have our discussion about imaginary things involve "imaginary cannon" that is written. As well as speculation so long as the speculation of "imaginary cannon" is not totally made up...
Did I really just write all that? Where are my meds...
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
'Servers' is subject to interpretation. A server farm can be running one instance which for the players' purposes is one big server. In terms of hardware it may be several physical server boxes.This is my understanding of what Ryan means when he says "servers". A "single world server" running on many physical server computers, each hosting different services like chat.
Wasn't this from his video Blog / interview or was it from one of his panel discussions?
I do recall Ryan saying what i placed in bold, from your text.
@ Bringslite,
Sometimes when I "quote" from something that I have seen or read, please remember, I have written over a thousand posts (some quite lengthy, as you know) and I've read easily five times that many or at least it seems so. I have read the Dev Blogs and watched every video blog, interview, and panel discussion, more than once in some cases.
Sometimes these ideas get muddled, become a blur and hard to pin point when and where I have seen or read them. Which is why I said, I don't mind making mistakes and having them pointed out. Some have also been overwritten by more up to date Blogs or individual Dev posts. I think sometimes even the Devs, over write what they have posted without even knowing it.
I hope cannons aren't imaginary. I plan on commandeering one, tying it to my ox animal companion, and riding around the world terrorizing people who can't defend themselves from a lunatic moving about five feet per round who will get nothing but a very dead ox if he actually fires the thing his companion is pulling around.
Hm. Maybe it's best cannons do stick to the realms of imagination...
That works out. Consider my above post non-canon.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Nihimon
Glad you are back. I have an idea for a thread for you to start. Something about misused and misunderstood PFO terminology. Also clearing up myths like PFO will only have one server, alignment drift will get you kicked from your CC, etc... Things that people are writing and getting others worked up, yet the things are not correct.
What do you think? Feel up to it? :)
If you listen to the newest Podcast (posted by Greedalox), Ryan Dancey stated "There will be only one server, just like in EVE." (paraphrased).
That means, specifically, no RP servers, no PVE servers and no multiple servers. Just one server where all of the players will learn to play together and hopefully respect each other's play style wishes, while playing their own style.
He also reiterated that PVE is an early, but limited function of the game, and mostly needed to give the players something they are familiar with early on and to supply gold to the game's economic system. Other than that, PVP is the focus of the game.
Remember, PVP is not just combat, it involves all player interaction.
The one thing I did find disappointing is that player generated content maybe as far as 3 years out. Not sure is that was 3 years from start of EE, or 3 years after launch of non beta game??
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The PvE is 'limited'? Well, that sucks, I was hoping to be able to avoid PvP for the most part except for bandit raids and joining the local Army to go deal with an Invasion from a rival Hex.
That said, so long as PvP doesn't involve stun-locking and other 'cheese', it should be fun.
I hope the PvEers aren't going to be left out in the cold, as PvP, especially on a single server, can lead to a bitter contest that locks down the major resource nodes to everyone ... but maybe that's intentionally? There's a war involving hundreds of players over the largest discovered iron mine in the Hex, the people who don't want to PvP or are sick to death of the camping and the corpse-looting all head south, open up a new Hex and institute strict 'laws' within 'their' Hex (assuming they can settle it) that prohibit PvP actions as much as the system will allow, making it an unpopular region for the die-hard PvPers.
Griefers will still come and try to teabag, but that's the nature of the beast.
So the 'Contested' Hex is still the site of a grueling PvP battle over the largest mine in game, but the 'Peaceful' Hex has smaller mines that produce adequate materials, and now there are farms, taverns and small settlements springing up, creating a thriving community where ramming three feet of steel into somebody's face because you want their shinies is punishable by NPC Wardens and such.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Nihimon
Glad you are back. I have an idea for a thread for you to start. Something about misused and misunderstood PFO terminology. Also clearing up myths like PFO will only have one server, alignment drift will get you kicked from your CC, etc... Things that people are writing and getting others worked up, yet the things are not correct.
What do you think? Feel up to it? :)
If you listen to the newest Podcast (posted by Greedalox), Ryan Dancey stated "There will be only one server, just like in EVE." (paraphrased).
That means, specifically, no RP servers, no PVE servers and no multiple servers. Just one server where all of the players will learn to play together and hopefully respect each other's play style wishes, while playing their own style.
He also reiterated that PVE is an early, but limited function of the game, and mostly needed to give the players something they are familiar with early on and to supply gold to the game's economic system. Other than that, PVP is the focus of the game.
Remember, PVP is not just combat, it involves all player interaction.
The one thing I did find disappointing is that player generated content maybe as far as 3 years out. Not sure is that was 3 years from start of EE, or 3 years after launch of non beta game??
Yes, as I have already stated(but now have to write again), my choice of examples of what I was writing about were poor choices. What does that have to do with our current exchange though?
I guess that the original blogs that I read were a little misleading to me. I have found that confirmation at 24:06 or so. I concede that point to Bluddwolf and all others. Like I said, bad choice of examples for a whole different point.
Yes, PVE will be a good way for PCs to get gold into circulation. One of my ALTs will definitely be taking advantage while the faucet is running fast.
I do know that about PVP, but I thank you for the reminder. I look forward to PVP combat with an ALT but my merchant will be doing economic PVP.
The player content will be great. Stating that it is way out in the scheme of things makes me fear for it's appearance ever though.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Ryan says "PvE is an important foundation, but not the focus of the game."
I think it's more that you should be thinking of PvE as a factor in your settlement's PvP success, rather than thinking about PvE success as a goal in itself.
This might just be my impression, but I get the feeling that whenever he downplays PvE, it is in relation to the themepark model of questing & dungeoneering and especially the themepark end-game: large-group raiding, difficult scripted encounters, getting the best gear, etc.
None of those things are priorities in PFO... end-game or otherwise. In fact, you won't need to PvE at all (or maybe not much: merit badges, alignment, etc).
That isn't to say that PvE won't be important, or that you won't be able to spend all your time PvEing. I expect that just as one player might focus on PvP, another might focus on PvE. I also expect that there will form an alliance of settlements that take special care to protect their PvEers. They will put extra effort to attract those PvEers that shy away from PvP. We will need PvEers to harvest resources (and fight the mobs that spawn at harvesting camps), to delve into dungeons for items that can be crafted into settlement buildings or equipment, and to craft the items we will need in order to be successful in PvP.
TL;DR: In short, I believe that PvE will be 'limited' in comparison to the MMOs that we are used to. In PFO, there is more PvP going on than PvE (which is different than we are used to), and the end- meta-game will revolve around PvP interactions. PvE will be a means to a successful end-game, rather than an end-game in itself.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The PvE is 'limited'? Well, that sucks, I was hoping to be able to avoid PvP for the most part except for bandit raids and joining the local Army to go deal with an Invasion from a rival Hex...
I'd like to point out that limitations are often very good things. I'd like to limit North Korea and Iran in certain specific ways and those limitations would be a good thing. Limiting the tones in music to those that are 'in tune' is generally thought a good thing. Limiting which side of the road you drive on is a good thing.
The quantity of PvE opportunities should be acceptably great with the 'hex escalation' function but long term it can only be a means to an end. And really I wish to offer that in PvE-only games, where PvE is the end-all be-all, the games ultimately lack significant meaning. There is no elementary 'WHY' to it all: it is only the environment, after all. The 'WHY' is the player, and in consequence all the means-to-ends point toward PvP because that is where the competition is.
So PFO rightly, in my view, relegates the function of PvE to the status of ornament, tool, and furniture. PvE content is not mistaken as an objective but as an environment for the sake of a greater good: namely Us.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
"This might just be my impression, but I get the feeling that whenever he downplays PvE, it is in relation to the themepark model of questing & dungeoneering and especially the themepark end-game: large-group raiding, difficult scripted encounters, getting the best gear, etc."
Here is the good news on all of these points...
No PVE grinds
No Dungeon Raids that have to be repeated over-and-over again to get phat lootz
Best gear in the game is player crafted
No theme park, what do I do now "end game" that you hit in 60 days! The character you play IS the END GAME!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If I may addend some thoughts related to my preceding post, it is this 'meaningfulness' that most strongly argues for the primacy of alignment in the PFO cosmology for our characters. 'Meaning' as the game's objective makes the player, rather than the environment, the key feature of the game. This is what informs me that alignment is neither irrelevant nor arbitrary.
Making consequences of alignment matter, for example excluding characters from citizenship whose alignment is incompatible to the settlement seems integral and intrinsic to making in-game behaviors meaningful. If there are no 'in-game real' consequences to behavior there is no meaning to 'in-game real' behavior, thus no meaning to 'in-game real' role playing.
If the player-character finds his motivation intrinsic then he will accept alignment-shift consequences as natural, in context of the game. If the player-character finds his motivation extrinsic, derived from the requirements of his preferred alignment, he will not find alignment-shift consequences natural, but feel they are forced upon him.
The intrinsically motivated role-player finds meaning and motivation for his role internally. Hazarding a guess, then, it may be that the extrinsically motivated role-player finds meaning and motivation for his role artificially.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The PvE is 'limited'?
I think as Being is alluding to: We're looking at how each system combines with the others and at what level of player organisation: Eg PvE:
- players doing alignment quests to improve their standing
- players doing achievement quests/tasks as part of skill-training
- party of adventures to go out exploring maps
- party finding a dungeon to raid
- CC going out via a contract to gather/collect/harvest
- CC going out to a wilder hex to gain more profits and shore up against an escalation
- Settlement sending out contracts from crafters, leaders to get goods to run the settlement and increase trade. Some serious expeditions and logistical operations eg running a camp/dig and hauling.
That's the picture I'm forming of PvE. Naturally it might be tempting to take what others have already have secured with hard work...
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I quite like PvE, but I despise WoW's 'Grind', in that it's never over, there's always more factions to spend several weeks harvesting buzzards' asses for and the gear is always traded out over the course of several days, weeks or months, depending upon the raid schedule.
Pathfinder Online .... gear is not a wall, it's a baby-step, from what the Blogs say. Being 'low level' isn't that big a leap in overall power from being 'mid level'. Instances will NOT be repetitive grinds, as almost all gear, weapons, armor and utility items will be PLAYER made.
PvE-ers will be 'wilderness/ruins' gatherers. We'll be the guys and gals going out into the wilds, mapping out potential trade routes, taking the fight to hostile Monsters and Humanoids before they can encroach on our territories and taking their shinies back to be turned into cold, hard coin or other useful materials.
I hardly think we will be 'marginalized', but I am aware that PvP was always intended to be the 'focus' of the game. Pitting rival players against each other in a massive sand-box, Heroes against Heroes, Frontier Outposts against Bandit Kingdoms, so on and so forth.
Going back and re-reading the Blogs, the 'PvE is Limited' line that made my blood run cold doesn't seem so bad now.