CoT - Any Good?

[stuart haffenden]

DM's and players [what are you doing here!] what's it like as a whole compared to, say, RotRL and CotCT?

Edit: Where are the bad bits? What needs some DM work prior to playing?

[Demiurge 1138]

stuart haffenden wrote:

DM's and players [what are you doing here!] what's it like as a whole compared to, say, RotRL and CotCT?

Edit: Where are the bad bits? What needs some DM work prior to playing?

I'm currently running it, and my players are having a grand ol' time. I've only run through Bastards of Erebus so far, but I'm sorry to say that that adventure is a good chunk of the Bad Bits. There's a tedious sewer crawl that takes way too many words to describe, antagonizing of a major power group in the city (the Hellknights) with no consequences and a pretty pitiful big fight, and the final dungeon is as linear as a rail shooter.

Which is why I changed all of those things. I dropped the sewer crawl, made the Hellknights an abstract threat instead of someone to directly fight, and fleshed out some of the suggested side-quests into full-session events. I kept the dungeon linearity, although I did spice it up with terrain features and tactics.

There's a series of broken promises throughout the adventure's continuity, which is annoying. Suggestions for how to integrate NPCs into the next adventure are promised, then not delivered, and there's talk of statting a unique creature that never happens. Then again, this sort of thing happened a bit in Curse of the Crimson Throne (with talk of how Rolth could stir up trouble in Escape From Old Korvosa).

A major threat source throughout the adventures are the shadow beasts, although every time they're actually fought in the story, they're either shadows or shadow mastiffs. Likewise, adventure 5, Mother of Flies, has a very limited set of stat-blocks for its big dungeon crawl. I recommend taking the time to add in some variety of encounters. My random encounter table for Westcrown at night is full of darkmantles, cloakers, kytons and homebrewed critters.

The sixth adventure, The Twice-Damned Prince, is very good--probably my favorite of the series--but suffers from a lack of build-up. There's all sorts of characters who seem like they should be movers and shakers in town, but are introduced in The Twice-Damned Prince out of nowhere. I recommend foreshadowing some of the characters early: The Sixfold Trial has a dinner party sequence, to which some of these NPCs can be added as additional guests.

[Karui Kage]

Demiurge 1138 wrote:

Suggestions for how to integrate NPCs into the next adventure are promised, then not delivered,

You should check out this thread then. :)

[Demiurge 1138]

Karui Kage wrote:

Demiurge 1138 wrote:

Suggestions for how to integrate NPCs into the next adventure are promised, then not delivered,

You should check out this thread then. :)

I was thinking less the Children of Westcrown (who were explicitly "we're not going to do much with them--DMs go nuts") and more the two informant NPCs in The Infernal Syndrome, who are immediately replaced with a third informant NPC out of nowhere.

[DarkArt]

Demiurge 1138 wrote:

stuart haffenden wrote:

DM's and players [what are you doing here!] what's it like as a whole compared to, say, RotRL and CotCT?

Edit: Where are the bad bits? What needs some DM work prior to playing?

I'm currently running it, and my players are having a grand ol' time. I've only run through Bastards of Erebus so far, but I'm sorry to say that that adventure is a good chunk of the Bad Bits. There's a tedious sewer crawl that takes way too many words to describe<snip>

There's a note to make the sewer crawl as long or as brief as the group enjoys. If the group feels it's a slog, the AP has given a new way to make an otherwise slog into a rapid whatever-is-most-fun for the group chase under the heading "Maze Maps Don't Work" on page 16.

If a group loves dungeon crawls, escape from the fuzz, what's under the muck, and keep it going until we run out of coffee, then the chapter gives a green light to go until you're out of ideas. If the group gets bored, tired, frustrated after under a minute or before any encounters, than the group miraculously finds their sweet haven in a wink of the DM's eye. It's only a slog "if" the DM wants it to be.

[lokidr]

stuart haffenden wrote:

DM's and players [what are you doing here!] what's it like as a whole compared to, say, RotRL and CotCT?

Edit: Where are the bad bits? What needs some DM work prior to playing?

Is it good? Yes. It is also experimental which might require more work at least to understand and I've found it deadly.

Being single-city focused, as opposed to running off into the wilderness for half the path like CotCT or RotRL gives more continuity. Chelax is more detailed in books than Korvosa or Sandpoint so there is more you can do if you like. Any are better than Second Darkness which is positively schizophrenic in execution.

I'm through the first two adventures and I have to say I enjoy the open nature of the path but it does require work, especially up-front. There are three optional encounters you need to write from whole-cloth to maximize the fame of the group. Several NPCs can really benefit from being fleshed out and leveled as you advance but that isn't strictly necessary. I suggest creating "background" encounters, just brief scenes showing how the city of Westcrown can be improved based on the background traits.

Problem areas for us have been money in the first two adventures, which is pretty low. Also, check the obituaries for encounters that may be too difficult. There are 3-4 tough spots, especially early. The meta-plot is hard for the players to see, if that is a concern for them. Some NPCs can benefit from cameos early to get the players used to them so they don't seem to come out of left-field.

All in all, this is a great adventure path if you want to expand the story. If you are looking for a path to just pick up and play, I'd suggest RotRL, if for no other reason than difficulty. If you want a good framework, go with CoT. If you want really open adventure path, take a look at Kingmaker.

[hogarth]

I started playing in a (PbP) Council of Thieves game, but I dropped out halfway through the first adventure. I had a few problems with the plot of Bastards of Erebus:

• Your PC really has to be ready to jump into a revolutionary group right off the bat, and I didn't realise that when I was creating a character.
  
• Not only do you have to be a revolutionary, but you have to be willing to immediately break a stranger out of the custody of the Hellknights. I thought it would be very odd for a 1st level character to be willing to openly defy a powerful organisation.
  
• I built a PC eager to face off against shadow beasts, but we ended up fighting (wannabe) Hellknights, Hellknights and more Hellknights instead. And some torbles. That didn't really excite me as far as variety goes.

There were other issues with the game, but those three plot details were a bit of an immediate turn-off for me.

[Makarnak]

Hmm. I'm running it right now (just finished Bastards of Erebus), and there's a few things I can think of:

1) I suggest really investing the characters in the setting. Have them grow up in Westcrown, have their families be in Westcrown, so that something other than treasure and magic items motivate them. Give them friends and contacts and homes, brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. That way, even if they're questionably aligned, they have something to fight for. Plus, then the DM has something to threaten to motivate them... muhahahaha!

DM spoiler:

2) The initial encounter is not an endearing one. My group found it hard to trust the Children of Westcrown, feeling that they were incompetents. Encourage the PCs to take leadership roles.

3) The first adventure has some good moments, but, in my opinion, far too much of 'throw stuff at them until they're 2nd level!' We had more fun with the side missions, including a full-fledged goblin lair that I built on my own, with 'Whitechin' the wererat goblin chief, guarding his treasure horde of pickles. Heh.

4) Interestingly enough, after the first adventure, the threat of governmental retribution dies off a bit. Mostly because the government sort of goes to pieces. It doesn't seem to be about rebellion, per se, but about seizing the opportunities presented. Like if the French had tried to foment revolt in the Colonies, and the Colonists had taken the opportunity of the chaos they presented to break free, instead of a direct rebellion.

5) Also, it pays to take some time, as a DM, to read ahead as much as possible to tie characters, places, and events together. I finally made an enormous map of Westcrown to plot important locations together, and I'm working on character files (for information, contacts, etc.).

It takes some work, but it also has some unique concepts that are really worth it. The play, the disaster, the haunted house and a very picturesque final battle.

[hogarth]

Makarnak wrote:

Hmm. I'm running it right now (just finished Bastards of Erebus), and there's a few things I can think of:

1) I suggest really investing the characters in the setting. Have them grow up in Westcrown, have their families be in Westcrown, so that something other than treasure and magic items motivate them. Give them friends and contacts and homes, brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. That way, even if they're questionably aligned, they have something to fight for. Plus, then the DM has something to threaten to motivate them... muhahahaha!

If I were DMing, I would probably even go one step further and require the PCs to be members of the Children of Westcrown before the adventure even starts rather than trying to shoehorn them in afterwards.

[Makarnak]

hogarth wrote:

Makarnak wrote:

Hmm. I'm running it right now (just finished Bastards of Erebus), and there's a few things I can think of:

1) I suggest really investing the characters in the setting. Have them grow up in Westcrown, have their families be in Westcrown, so that something other than treasure and magic items motivate them. Give them friends and contacts and homes, brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. That way, even if they're questionably aligned, they have something to fight for. Plus, then the DM has something to threaten to motivate them... muhahahaha!

If I were DMing, I would probably even go one step further and require the PCs to be members of the Children of Westcrown before the adventure even starts rather than trying to shoehorn them in afterwards.

That's a very good idea. Makes things a LOT simpler.

DM suggestion spoiler:

Then, you could have the PCs and Janiven meeting a potential contact that sold out Arael and the meeting, and it's not perceived as the Children of Westcrown's fault.

But I like the idea of giving them friends/family, too. Makes the whole thing more dramatic because something other than an abstract city with no street names is at risk. It also gives them a why to fight the powers that be.

[lokidr]

hogarth wrote:

I started playing in a (PbP) Council of Thieves game, but I dropped out halfway through the first adventure. I had a few problems with the plot of Bastards of Erebus:

• Your PC really has to be ready to jump into a revolutionary group right off the bat, and I didn't realise that when I was creating a character.
  
• Not only do you have to be a revolutionary, but you have to be willing to immediately break a stranger out of the custody of the Hellknights. I thought it would be very odd for a 1st level character to be willing to openly defy a powerful organisation.
  
• I built a PC eager to face off against shadow beasts, but we ended up fighting (wannabe) Hellknights, Hellknights and more Hellknights instead. And some torbles. That didn't really excite me as far as variety goes.

There were other issues with the game, but those three plot details were a bit of an immediate turn-off for me.

I saw those problems before I started running the game, but I think the solutions are pretty easy:

Before character creation, I told the players to make characters willing to join a rebellion. It's on the back of the first adventure, after all. As Makarnak said, investing the characters in the city is good rout. The background traits help as well. Being a shadow hunter means you are willing to fight unknown evils in the night who plagued the city for 30 years. Fighting Hellknights shouldn't be that scary at that point.

In the series of sewer encounters, there were a number of encounters that could be random. I chose my encounters to prevent the same thing happening over and over. The adventure also says the DM should go as long as the party is having fun. I think the PbP might have been the problem here: the DM can't hear you sighing at another Hellknight-wanabe encounter.

CoT can get lost in random tables and a lack of direction. I don't recommend it for a first-time DM.