I was wondering how compatible the Iron Heroes rules are to Pathfinder, I know that Iron Heroes PC Classes were to work with 3.? balance of CR with a few exceptions here and there. So has anyone tried the two systems and if so how has it worked out for you?
The reason I ask is because Iron Heros base classes had been made with the idea of not needing any magic items and take on the creatures of the world, and that made them need to be more powerful then 3.* characters without all there magic gear, but Pathfinder Classes have been made more powerful then there brothers and sisters of 3.* so how bad would it throw the Iron Heros off balance whys in a Pathfinder setting?
6. Anytyhing that relies on dungeon based encounters will frustrate
IH characters
What do you mean by this? Maybe an example, and thank you for your info.
And at higher levels do you mean that they could not really hold there own?
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I ran IH for a while.
I didn't notice an increase in prep time really, just a change in what I prepped. Didn't need magic gear for bad guys and such, and didn't have to prep spells. Worked more on actual STORY! Amazing!
The IH characters do move around a LOT more, all the classes did, but my wife played a Harrier and she was insane moving. lol
I don't think they would fit smoothly with Pathfinder though. The pools are rather unique to IH, and can be over powering in a traditional game. Use common feat rules, don't use IH feats for IH characters and PF for PF characters, that just won't do. I would suggest using PF feats for all classes. But tame those two, make sure HP for IH classes follow the same system as PF, make sure skills are balanced and you are ready to go.
lol
Honestly I don't think it would be too hard to convert IH classes to PF, but would take some time.
I converted Curse of the Crimson Throne over to Iron Heroes. The game ran well enought, but broke down a bit at high level. Once you start catching opponents flat-footed with the damage high level IH characters do, those opponents die quickly.
Any conversion will require you accounting for magic and making sure high level NPCs can take the damage the PCs can dish out in order to be an actual threat.
It was a game that seriously needed a second Edition to iron out some of the bugs but that said for those who want a half way house between 3.? & 4th I would heartily recommend it
Spooky. I won't link, but an Iron Heroes Second Edition is apparently just now in the offing - they're even mentioning Pathfinder as a model for a few things, over on the IH boards (google around, you'll find it).
I'm currently running a Pathfinder-Iron Heroes hybrid campaign, with Pathfinder as the base. The IH additions are the full feat masteries, the combat and skill challenges, and a low-magic setting with no full casters: this leaves Bards as the preeminent spellcasters, and the players with seven class options: Barbarian, Bard, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, and Rogue.
It's going down a treat.
A couple of things:
(1) There are several different ways you could combine the two systems. A real melange would be tricky, I think, and an Iron Heroes+ bits of Pathfinder would be odd. I can verify that Pathfinder + a bit of IH is doable, and works very well indeed.
(2) The IH inclusions above may not look like much, but they're already a lot of work. Specifically, what is quite arduous is combining, rewriting and tweaking the two feats lists and systems, which together include, oh I dunno, 200-odd entries. As well as balancing all of them, you need to decide whether to adopt Pathfinder Power Attack and Cleave mechanics, amongst many other finickety things.
Having said that, I do think it's worth it. The result is a broad General feats selection, matched by an equally large Masteries menu. Both Pathfinder and IH contribute interesting and varied options for all classes.
(3) Pathfinder classes and feat mastery: we decided to give all the seven classes above Man-at-Arms mastery; that is, 1 mastery level per two levels, rounded *up*. This seemed to be rather generous to the Bard and Monk pre-game, but it's working out fine.
(4) Healing: if you're adopting an IH low-magic flavour, this is an issue. We've been using Reserve Points for a while now, so are simply continuing with them. The party also has a Paladin (who has just hit 2nd and so gained Lay on Hands), and are playing carefully.
I've removed the Cure spells from those classes who still have them on their spell lists (Bard, Paladin, Ranger). My feeling is that bountiful magical instamatic cures don't fit the IH flavour. The party still have their reserve points, their Heal skills, and a few rare bits of magical healing, but they have to tread carefully. So far, it's been enjoyable.
(5) Skill and combat challenges: these are one of the star points of IH, and whatever you do, do include them. You'll need to keep an eye on Pathfinder monster skills (who tend to gain racial skill bonusses fairly haphazardly; if you can convert those skills into damage or hit bonusses, you have to keep a closer check on them). Ditto your players: +2 masterwork items are a big deal when you have people stunting for damage.
That's all I can think of for the time being. It's a good combination, PF+IH, and I'd say go for it - the work will pay off in play.
Best,
The Porp.
Well I don't really want to gut and throw Iron Heroes into Pathfinder per say, I would like for Pathfinder to stand on its own. What I was thinking of doing was throwing some Pathfinder into Iron Heroes, I know that the IH Classes were suppost to be balanced with the 3.? classes, how have you found them to be with the Pathfinder classes, and for that matter the creatures?
I was going to do a home brew with IH as the base, and use some PF creatures and class as some of the foes, maybe not a bunch but maybe here and there, maybe have them come from another world or just another part of the world.... not sure yet, at first as scouts of an unknown empire. I did think of the magic problem and did not wan't IH characters getting there hands on such, as that would make things go out of wack in short. But believe I have that problem at least partly solved, maybe the magic from the tell now unknown empire is not so healthy for those of an IH base, think it would be to cheap to make them not work, but maybe prolonged use or not so prolonged use depending on the item, would hender the inborn self reliance of an IH character, have not worked that out.
I know PF has made its classes a cut above 3.?, so does it balance now, or would PF rule? I want a conflict not total domination. I know it has some bugs that need squashing but before I get to far along trying to get a grip on what is going to be the largest bugs.
Oh and has anyone tried out any prestige like classes on an IH character, and if so how has that worked?
Oh and thanks to everyone that has given ther two cps so far!
Necro -
no problem. And good luck!
Just to check I have it clear: you want to run an Iron Heroes game, and introduce Pathfinder monsters and classes as adversaries? Or are the players able to choose between IH and PF classes themselves also?
Anyway, issues:
(1) Save or dies. Iron Heroes classes have great saves, but once they fail against petrification or the like, they're out of the game - unless you introduce a plot device specifically to get them out of jail, which is awkward.
(2) No save and no progress. Iron Heroes classes have no way to Dispel Magic, no magical means to bypass Walls of Force etc, and are pretty stuffed by water, air, or earthly barriers. PF monsters and classes are made for a world where progress against those challenges is possible, and where combat can make use of such territories. If your game is set at middling levels or above, you'll need a solution to that - preferably a broad mechnical one, since, once again, too many helpful plot devices gets old fast.
(3) IH classes against PF classes will work at low levels - I've done this in a previous game, and I'd say 5th is about the cut-off. After that point, top tier full spellcasters will blow the IH classes out of the water if you're standing them off against one another. As a low-level example from my old game, I had a 4th level wizard, invisible and levitating, summoning creatures vs a 2nd level IH party of four. That would have been a TPK all by itself, had I not pulled punches. The Iron Heroes party was pretty optimised, but had no solid means of dealing with any of the challenges the wizard presented: frankly, even reaching a levitating foe is hard for many Iron PCs.
A 5th level wizard could be adding Fly, Gaseous Form, Hold Person, Major Image, or Phantom Steed, all of which mess with Iron Heroes classes in ways they're just not ready for.
Long and short of it: I think adding Pathfinder bits to Iron Heroes is harder than adding Iron Heroes bits to Pathfinder. You'll have to be careful with all the things above, and also watch out for many more mundane things, such as the skills Pathfinder monsters bring to Iron Heroes skill challenges. It's doable at low level, though.
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I'm really not sure I would bring the Pathfinder Classes into Iron Heroes as NPCs. Like Porp said, the IH PCs have very limited resources to react to some of the magics that can whipped up. About their only chance really is to get the drop on the NPC and catch them flatfooted, win initiatives and kill them in the surprise round.
I do think dropping IH classes into a Pathfinder game would work much better and easier though. Harrier is a mighty nice alternative to Fighter, and the Archer is a great alt for the Ranger. But some of the Pathfinder monsters have those nasty magical abilities that you really need a Cleric and Wizard to counter with.
Necro -
Just to check I have it clear: you want to run an Iron Heroes game, and introduce Pathfinder monsters and classes as adversaries? Or are the players able to choose between IH and PF classes themselves also?
Yes, PCs would be IH Class only.
(1) Save or dies. Iron Heroes classes have great saves, but once they fail against petrification or the like, they're out of the game - unless you introduce a plot device specifically to get them out of jail, which is awkward.
Well on this one that could ruin a game quick, I would us some of the advice out of one of the books I have from IH, cant remember the exact one at the time, that said how to handle such spell, as for petrification, as you used that as an example I believe it said make those type of spells only last a given amount of time, vs. your stone and its done. Others I would have to look over and decide if I could do something along those lines or just not even put it in play.
(2) No save and no progress. Iron Heroes classes have no way to Dispel Magic, no magical means to bypass Walls of Force etc, and are pretty stuffed by water, air, or earthly barriers. PF monsters and classes are made for a world where progress against those challenges is possible, and where combat can make use of such territories. If your game is set at middling levels or above, you'll need a solution to that - preferably a broad mechnical one, since, once again, too many helpful plot devices gets old fast.
I have a couple couple of books that I am looking at that may replace the base magic user of Iron Heroes without loosing the flavor of said class, have not decided on the one to use yet, but I will use it as a guideline on what the invaders may be able to use or not use.... and from the sounds of it will need to do the same with any creature that is brought in. Maybe that could work?
(3) IH classes against PF classes will work at low levels - I've done this in a previous game, and I'd say 5th is about the cut-off. After that point, top tier full spellcasters will blow the IH classes out of the water if you're standing them off against one another. As a low-level example from my old game, I had a 4th level wizard, invisible and levitating, summoning creatures vs a 2nd level IH party of four. That would have been a TPK all by itself, had I not pulled punches. The Iron Heroes party was pretty optimised, but had no solid means of dealing with any of the challenges the wizard presented: frankly, even reaching a levitating foe is hard for many Iron PCs.
This is a great example thank you very much and has given me much needed info, it will give me a good few things to go over. Thank you very much it has really helped open my eyes to the things I need to look for. And its really great to hear it from someone that has gone through the trial of using the rules in play.
Long and short of it: I think adding Pathfinder bits to Iron Heroes is harder than adding Iron Heroes bits to Pathfinder. You'll have to be careful with all the things...
That very well may be the thing I do after going over a few things.
Again thank you and everyone, it has all been very helpful helpful.