Hello everyone,
I'm not totally sure if this has been discussed elsewhere and if so, I apologize for the repeat. I'm starting a new campaign soon and I know that one of my players wants to be a cleric that focuses on summoning monsters and I believe another player wants to be a druid or wizard that specializes in summoning as well. They have instructed another player to create a rogue, which (I'm guessing) is for flanking/sneak attack purposes; essentially, summon a bunch of crap, have those summoned creatures surround enemies, and have the rogue go in "guns blazing" with sneak attacks. While I understand that the idea is good, within all the rules, and that there are certainly ways to thwart this plan, I'm still worried that this takes any excitement and danger out of the adventure. If 2 out of 3 players are just sitting back summoning creatures, I fear for a "rinse and repeat" campaign.
I'm thinking about letting the cleric use summoning and telling the potential wizard player to go a different route. Furthermore, I'm thinking about limiting the number of summoning spells active for the cleric at one time in an effort to limit this situation: "Ok guys, the big boss is in the next room so I'm going to summon a bunch of fodder and when I complete this last spell, you bust open the door."
Any thoughts? Has something like this come up in other games? I'm thinking about limiting the active summoning spells to 2 at any one time. For example, the cleric can have Summon Monster IX and Summon Monster VII active with any combination of creatures allowed (such as 1 creature from the IX list and 1d3 creatures from the VI list). This way the cleric can do other things (such as healing) and I don't have to worry about enemies in the adventure just being overrun by a bunch of summoned creatures.
What level are you starting at? Summoning monster really has a pretty small "sweet spot" where it's effective; at level 1 it's pretty useless, and likewise the usefulness tapers off at high levels as well.
My two cents: it couldn't hurt to have a gentleman's agreement not to summon too many monsters at once.
Summoned monsters are a viable main combat strategy in very low levels (1-4 or so), and quickly tail off into meat shields and buffers after that. A level 10 caster (as an example) casting a summon monster spell is likely to be summoning a creature that's 4 or 5 CR under the one he's fighting. Really, summoning is NOT a terribly viable strategy in the long-term.
As for limitations, there's no real need to enforce any that aren't already in the game. For example, the first few levels of summon monster and summon nature's ally contain very few if any creatures that can understand speech. That means they cannot be given orders, which means the only thing they'll do is attack the nearest enemy. Also keep in mind that, at level 1, summoned monsters don't even get a full attack (they last for 1 round and only get a standard action in the round they're summoned), and even at higher levels, their duration isn't long enough to allow summoning a whole bunch of them before a fight starts. Another thing to remember is that they're a full-round action to cast, so they're very easy to disrupt with a little damage in combat.
The one thing I WOULD require of any would-be summoners is that they have their summoned creature stats already prepared BEFORE they summon the critter. In other words, they need to have an index card stack of potential summoned creatures, so they aren't slowing down the game by constantly borrowing the Bestiary and trading it back and forth between themselves and the DM.
What level are you starting at? Summoning monster really has a pretty small "sweet spot" where it's effective; at level 1 it's pretty useless, and likewise the usefulness tapers off at high levels as well.
My two cents: it couldn't hurt to have a gentleman's agreement not to summon too many monsters at once.
We are starting at level 1. I know it's pretty bad early on, but I think the big draw was to surround an enemy and provide flanking for a rogue at all times.
Thank you for your two cents haha. I think we may have some sort of agreement, possibly after I see exactly how things pan out in the adventure.
Summoned monsters are a viable main combat strategy in very low levels (1-4 or so), and quickly tail off into meat shields and buffers after that. A level 10 caster (as an example) casting a summon monster spell is likely to be summoning a creature that's 4 or 5 CR under the one he's fighting. Really, summoning is NOT a terribly viable strategy in the long-term.
As for limitations, there's no real need to enforce any that aren't already in the game. For example, the first few levels of summon monster and summon nature's ally contain very few if any creatures that can understand speech. That means they cannot be given orders, which means the only thing they'll do is attack the nearest enemy. Also keep in mind that, at level 1, summoned monsters don't even get a full attack (they last for 1 round and only get a standard action in the round they're summoned), and even at higher levels, their duration isn't long enough to allow summoning a whole bunch of them before a fight starts. Another thing to remember is that they're a full-round action to cast, so they're very easy to disrupt with a little damage in combat.
The one thing I WOULD require of any would-be summoners is that they have their summoned creature stats already prepared BEFORE they summon the critter. In other words, they need to have an index card stack of potential summoned creatures, so they aren't slowing down the game by constantly borrowing the Bestiary and trading it back and forth between themselves and the DM.
Thank you for some good insight. It skipped my mind that speech could be a big problem with this strategy. I think the player is planning to get extended summoning (through meta-rods or the feat) so he'd have a bit more time to let his creatures fight. And again, I think my big issue was that 2 players were looking to focus on summoning so even at higher levels with the time restrictions there would be many creatures present before the fight started.
I definitely agree with your last point. That player will be require to have all stats ready when the creature is summoned and be pretty familiar with the choices available to him.
Perhaps I'm worrying a bit more than I should. I may just have to see how their ideas work out in game before making any decisions.
To add my own perspective to this thread, I thought I'd chip in with a personal story.
The last long-term campaign I played was as a Conjurer who focused on summoning. At least, he did at the beginning. My character concept was very similar to that of your two players- conjure a bunch of stuff to bog down the battlefield and have your allies do the dirty work. With 3 combat encounters per day, it usually worked out to spending 1 of my highest level spells & 1-2 of my mid to lower level spells filling up the battlefield each encounter. Do you know what I found?
That crap gets boring fast. After a couple of months (1 session a week) I was so bored with summoning and never really contributing that I eventually lessened it to casting a single summon during the first round of combat and then providing battlefield support, buffs, and the occasional blast if the circumstances were good (9 enemies in a perfect square? Nemorga help me). You might have good luck with your players by simply letting them see the "glory" in summoning.
Some other things that constantly thwarted me as a summoner were:
*Narrow passages that only allowed enough room for my melee companions, but not my minions
*Archers- low AC and 1 round casting always lead to concentration checks
*Single-enemy encounters - if you've got melee support, summoning minions isn't usually a very effective response to a one-baddie encounter
*Mass-enemy encounters - again, if there were too many enemies that were quickly felled, it felt worthless to summon at all.
*Small Rooms - As the summons get higher, the rule seems to be "bigger is better." In small rooms its hard to summon the larger, and thus more effective, allies. This was a constant irritation.
*Enemy Spellcasters - I can't tell you how many times I had a summoned minion counterspelled or out right dispelled.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't let your players take this approach- in fact, I'm against you stopping them. However, by setting up the circumstances properly you can teach your players that the strategy is good -at times-, but it's not a one size fits all approach.
I think it's valid to worry over. I've seen it wreck games before. Definately institute the rule that no monsters can be summoned unless the summoner has a card prepared. Go through the lists yourself though, and read over various monsters your party might be throwing at you. You don't need to memorize every single stat, just look them over, see if anything sticks out that you didn't know before. Possibly keep your own stash of cards that have monsters your party summons often, that way your intelligent NPCs/monsters can plan accordingly.
Don't be afraid to use the tactic against the PCs. If they're outside the BBEG's door summoning a small hord to rush in, have the villian in his lair summoning away as well. Or use the environment to his advantage. Not alot of the lower level summons (if memory serves) can fly, or have good ranged attacks...
Absolutely keep in mind that celestial dire monkeys of doom don't understand common. They don't follow orders, they don't go to the square opposite the rogue, they attack the summoning character's enemies. This gives you a pretty wide range of wigle room to adjudicate. Has anyone attacked the wizard yet? If not, does he have an enemy then? Is the cleric and rogue still arguing over who should get the wand of cure VD? If so, would the rogue be considered an enemy? I'm not suggesting you be as big of a duchebag as possible, just keep the options you have in mind.
If you think you can handle it, I strongly recomend you control the summoned creatures. Yeah, it adds a lot more to your plate, but it puts control back into your hands. Say you've got the party rogue fighting a lizard man about thirty feet away from the wizard. Wizard summons a fiedish dire chicken to give the rogue a flanking bonus, so he places it right behind the lizard man...within range of his spell. Fine. Next round another lizard man enters the room from the cave on the other side of the area as the wizard, and not wanting to shoot into melee, tosses his javalin at the wizard. On his turn, the chicken would (in my game), turn and attack the lizard man who showed direct hostilities to the summong character...leaving the rogue to go toe to toe alone.
If you think you can handle it, I strongly recomend you control the summoned creatures. Yeah, it adds a lot more to your plate, but it puts control back into your hands. Say you've got the party rogue fighting a lizard man about thirty feet away from the wizard. Wizard summons a fiedish dire chicken to give the rogue a flanking bonus, so he places it right behind the lizard man...within range of his spell. Fine. Next round another lizard man enters the room from the cave on the other side of the area as the wizard, and not wanting to shoot into melee, tosses his javalin at the wizard. On his turn, the...
Horrah! And now the Rogue, who already struggles to remain a combat presence, is almost as useless as a wizard in melee. Go DM!
|
Furthermore, I'm thinking about limiting the number of summoning spells active for the cleric at one time in an effort to limit this situation: "Ok guys, the big boss is in the next room so I'm going to summon a bunch of fodder and when I complete this last spell, you bust open the door."
This doesn't work anyway. Summon Monster spells last 1 round/level and time passes in minutes outside of combat. So the combat has to begin before summoning becomes useful at all. (And no, having one PC slap another doesn't start combat. >D)
I wouldn't worry about it. They will, of course, take Augment Summoning and similar feats, but even with those the summoned creatures won't stand up to the typical opponent for very long.
time passes in minutes outside of combat.
You're thinking of pre-3rd edition. As far as I know, there's no difference in the time frame between combat and non-combat in 3.0 and up. For sure, there's no difference in Pathfinder.
|
time passes in minutes outside of combat.You're thinking of pre-3rd edition. As far as I know, there's no difference in the time frame between combat and non-combat in 3.0 and up. For sure, there's no difference in Pathfinder.
So, once they start casting, everyone goes into initiative, and thus the clock starts ticking on their spells. this works only if they are aware of the combat ahead of time (being taken by surprise will stop this), and if they are aware, and close enough for the summons to have a good effect, then there is a good chance that the enemy in question would hear them casting (perception check) and thus act accordingly (disrupt, go invisible, etc..)
|
time passes in minutes outside of combat.You're thinking of pre-3rd edition. As far as I know, there's no difference in the time frame between combat and non-combat in 3.0 and up. For sure, there's no difference in Pathfinder.
Actually there is a difference, it's in the Additional Rules Chapter under Tactical movement and Local movement. If you're not in combat and you're just exploring the dungeon level time is tracked in minutes.
--Vrock Salt!
time passes in minutes outside of combat.You're thinking of pre-3rd edition. As far as I know, there's no difference in the time frame between combat and non-combat in 3.0 and up. For sure, there's no difference in Pathfinder.Actually there is a difference, it's in the Additional Rules Chapter under Tactical movement and Local movement. If you're not in combat and you're just exploring the dungeon level time is tracked in minutes.
--Vrock Salt!
That section is only referring to movement, not to characters who are not moving and are, in fact, preparing to enter combat. This is fairly obvious since the only reference to time is actually a reference to speed: "feet per minute".
|
|
That section is only referring to movement, not to characters who are not moving and are, in fact, preparing to enter combat. This is fairly obvious since the only reference to time is actually a reference to speed: "feet per minute".time passes in minutes outside of combat.You're thinking of pre-3rd edition. As far as I know, there's no difference in the time frame between combat and non-combat in 3.0 and up. For sure, there's no difference in Pathfinder.Actually there is a difference, it's in the Additional Rules Chapter under Tactical movement and Local movement. If you're not in combat and you're just exploring the dungeon level time is tracked in minutes.
--Vrock Salt!
Well what is preparing to enter combat? Either you are in combat or you are out of it. Rounds do not begin until initiative is rolled, if your PCs are aware of the enemy but the enemy is not aware you get a suprise round. Beyond that it's minutes.
Well what is preparing to enter combat? Either you are in combat or you are out of it. Rounds do not begin until initiative is rolled, if your PCs are aware of the enemy but the enemy is not aware you get a suprise round. Beyond that it's minutes.
You have not backed up your assertion with data. As I said, the section you referenced only refers to movement speed. It does NOT say "outside of combat, time is measured in minutes/hours". In fact, if it did, it would take an hour to drink a potion if you were travelling over land.
|
|
I didn't realize that would stir a hornet's nest. ;)
I agree with KoV: combat begins when initiative is rolled. This is a basic requirement of combat, in which everything is measured in rounds.
If you want to run your non-combat actions in rounds as well, that's up to you I suppose. But there's no reason why I have to do the same thing...
Gray area, I suppose.
|
|
You have not backed up your assertion with data. As I said, the section you referenced only refers to movement speed. It does NOT say "outside of combat, time is measured in minutes/hours". In fact, if it did, it would take an hour to drink a potion if you were travelling over land.
Well what is preparing to enter combat? Either you are in combat or you are out of it. Rounds do not begin until initiative is rolled, if your PCs are aware of the enemy but the enemy is not aware you get a suprise round. Beyond that it's minutes.
The rules don't directly state non-casters HAVE to sleep either. It is inferred in rules about other things however, Force March, Natural Healing, etc. The rules don't state how far you see in Moonlight & Starlight either but there are modifiers for those conditions in Tracking and mentions in Low Light Vision. You have to glean a lot of information from may different rule sets in the d20 game. Timekeeping is no different.
Hopefully the Gamemastery guide can add some light or advice to the situation. I've always used minutes to track time outside of combat because you have a local table in the first place.
--Vrock n' Roll
Summoning is a one round action(longer than a full round). That is long time to wait to get hit in the face, and have your spell disrupted. I don't think its a big problem though as long as the stats are ready, which has already been mentioned.
The rules don't state how far you see in Moonlight & Starlight either but there are modifiers for those conditions in Tracking and mentions in Low Light Vision.
Actually, they do. Moonlight would be unfavorable conditions and starlight would be very unfavorable conditions. You make a Perception check with a DC of (base to notice whatever + 2 or 5 + 1 per 10' of distance). Assuming a DC of 0, to notice something obvious, you would be able to see, on average, (Perception Bonus - 2) * 10 feet in moonglight and (Perception Bonus - 5) * 10 feet in starlight.
You have not backed up your assertion with data. As I said, the section you referenced only refers to movement speed. It does NOT say "outside of combat, time is measured in minutes/hours". In fact, if it did, it would take an hour to drink a potion if you were travelling over land.
Well what is preparing to enter combat? Either you are in combat or you are out of it. Rounds do not begin until initiative is rolled, if your PCs are aware of the enemy but the enemy is not aware you get a suprise round. Beyond that it's minutes.
The rules don't directly state non-casters HAVE to sleep either. It is inferred in rules about other things however, Force March, Natural Healing, etc. The rules don't state how far you see in Moonlight & Starlight either but there are modifiers for those conditions in Tracking and mentions in Low Light Vision. You have to glean a lot of information from may different rule sets in the d20 game. Timekeeping is no different.
Hopefully the Gamemastery guide can add some light or advice to the situation. I've always used minutes to track time outside of combat because you have a local table in the first place.
--Vrock n' Roll 1d100
If there are only 60 feet from point A to B you find out how long it takes to get there*. There is not slower movement outside of combat. I generally make the walks longer than they need to be because I can't see someone walking around the dungeon in that amount of time, but it is a house rule however. The thing for minutes is because most of the time when you walk things are at least minutes away.
*If you can walk from dungeon room B2 to B5 in 12 rounds, and the spell last for 2 minutes then it should still be active when you get there.
|
|
The rules don't state how far you see in Moonlight & Starlight either but there are modifiers for those conditions in Tracking and mentions in Low Light Vision.Actually, they do. Moonlight would be unfavorable conditions and starlight would be very unfavorable conditions. You make a Perception check with a DC of (base to notice whatever + 2 or 5 + 1 per 10' of distance). Assuming a DC of 0, to notice something obvious, you would be able to see, on average, (Perception Bonus - 2) * 10 feet in moonglight and (Perception Bonus - 5) * 10 feet in starlight.
See you've illustrated my point exactly!
You had to extrapolate that number from looking at the Perception charts modifiers and footnotes, not directly from the Vision and Light section, nor it's table which really would've made life so much easier!
You had to extrapolate that number from looking at the Perception charts modifiers and footnotes, not directly from the Vision and Light section, nor it's table which really would've made life so much easier!
Uh, that's because it's impossible to give an exact number. Every character has a different Perception modifier, which means they can identify things at different distances even in the same lighting conditions. There IS no such thing as "the distance you can see in moonlight". Perception is ... get this! ... based on your Perception skill. Only in the case of absolute lack of light can you tell exactly how far a character can see.
It's also completely irrelevant to your assertion that measuring speed in feet per minute somehow means you can't take actions that only last for rounds per level outside of combat.
i would have my player using small cards with the summoned monsters stats on. i dont alow in combat calculations of monster stats or the effect of smite evil that many celestial monsters have.
if you want to be a summoner then you must do a little homework and have you own list of monster stats, so you dont drag out your turn.
Golly i hope they don't discover the new Summoner class! With summons that last minutes a level.
... but only one at a time can be active.
Misinformation is fun!
Horrah! And now the Rogue, who already struggles to remain a combat presence, is almost as useless as a wizard in melee. Go DM!
Care to explain how a rogue strugles to remain a combat pressence? I don't think I've seen this ever actually happen. Also, how is it the DMs fault if the party is relying on poor tactics (aka sending the rogue into melee backed up by said fiendish chicken)? How is the DM being unfair by having animals act like animals under the guidelines of the spell? Read summon monster. It doesn't state that the spell caster's player controls the creature, doesn't state the character gains any specific ability to communicate with the creature. Go assumption! :)~
|
|
You had to extrapolate that number from looking at the Perception charts modifiers and footnotes, not directly from the Vision and Light section, nor it's table which really would've made life so much easier!
Uh, that's because it's impossible to give an exact number. Every character has a different Perception modifier, which means they can identify things at different distances even in the same lighting conditions. There IS no such thing as "the distance you can see in moonlight". Perception is ... get this! ... based on your Perception skill. Only in the case of absolute lack of light can you tell exactly how far a character can see.
It's also completely irrelevant to your assertion that measuring speed in feet per minute somehow means you can't take actions that only last for rounds per level outside of combat.
Sorry let me reword, why isn't there a distance a character can see in Moonlight and Starlight similar to the chart for torches, lanterns, light spells, etc. In the full moon with no other light (out in the woods or a farm field, not in the city or burbs) I can see at least 10 to 20 feet perhaps more (though I'd call it dim light and creatures would have concealment) in starlight alone it's far closer, maybe only 5 to 10 feet or so in an open field. But it would definitely not be complete darkness. A creature with Low-light vision can see as clearly as in the noontime sun under moonlight and starlight, but what about human? What about dwarves and half orcs beyond 60 feet?
Either way, the movement tables are the only hint we get at timekeeping mechanics at the tactical, local, and overland scales. Unless you see another place in the rules where there are suggestions as to how to trck time. I think it's pretty simple.
--Plymouth Vrock!
Sorry let me reword, why isn't there a distance a character can see in Moonlight and Starlight similar to the chart for torches, lanterns, light spells, etc.
Uh, because the moon and stars light the entire local area pretty much equally (barring blocking objects, of course), while torches, lanterns, and especially magical light do not?
I think it's pretty simple.
So do I. Time is time. With no specific rules telling me that time changes, time does not change.
Are you suggesting that the rules for Perception used to search are only for searching in combat? Because it only takes one round to search a 5' square according to the rules, but your interpretation of the rules would make it take a minute per 5' square.