The upshot is that nobody knows how it's supposed to work.
Then it can't be recommended in any kind of guide if no one can agree how it works (:
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Try HEREOr copy and paste: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AcNyxDTKvAmqZGRtZzhzdjZfNTB3YzJ0NzlkOA&am p;hl=en
into your navigation bar
Thanks a lot Sir !
I owe you one ! :D
Sorry, I can't comment as I don't own the book.
The temple sword is an exotic weapon that basically a long sword that aids the trip attacks and allows a monk to use their flurry ability with it.
Can't decide if its worth the feat to be able to flurry with a long sword. The trip option is okay but as you said in your guide, the monk is better off bull rushing or overrunning.
Thoughts?
I'm stuck, guys. Can someone make a monk who can survive melee, but also does damage that isn't pitiful?
The ideal (theoretical) solution would be to reduce the price of Bracers of Armor. The idea that Bracers of Armor +4 should be 15 times as expensive as a mithral chain shirt is laughable.
In practice, you can at least buy some potions of Mage Armor and maybe try to rely on UMD to activate a wand of Mirror Image or something like that.
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I'm stuck, guys. Can someone make a monk who can survive melee, but also does damage that isn't pitiful?The ideal (theoretical) solution would be to reduce the price of Bracers of Armor. The idea that Bracers of Armor +4 should be 15 times as expensive as a mithral chain shirt is laughable.
In practice, you can at least buy some potions of Mage Armor and maybe try to rely on UMD to activate a wand of Mirror Image or something like that.
That doesn't work, as it also throws off spellcaster scaling, and if they are too much cheaper then classes like rangers and rogues will nab them too.
The problem is very specifically tied to the monk, so the solution needs to be something that is likewise monk specific.
There are several possibilities.
1) A way of enchanting fists while in humanoid form. Like allowing for "monk wraps" or the like that are worn in the hand slot and enchanted exactly like a weapon (i.e., not the goofy Amulet of Mighty Fists not needing a +1 bonus). This still has them facing the same problem that other melee do when fighting critters with material based DR, but reduces their overall equipment cost / bonus tradeoff to something approaching what a fighter has to drop. Letting Druids also benefit may be a problem, or it might be what Wild-Shape focused Melee Druids need to stay competitive - not sure about this one.
2) Amping up the class based AC bonus. The initial starting value isn't bad; only a little under where a rogue or ranger would be, but it doesn't scale as well at higher levels. Part of the problem is the high cost of Amulet of Mighty Fists AND the need to have backup weapons, which the first point would address, but I suspect giving the Monk AC bonus every other level instead of every four levels as it is now would help matters.
Sorry for the sidetrack on Bracers of Armor:
That doesn't work, as it also throws off spellcaster scaling
The ideal (theoretical) solution would be to reduce the price of Bracers of Armor. The idea that Bracers of Armor +4 should be 15 times as expensive as a mithral chain shirt is laughable.
Baloney. Most spellcasters can already use a mithral chain shirt with no problem, and wizards and sorcerers have access to a plethora of great defensive spells, not to mention that they could just suck up the 10% spell failure chance if they really felt like it.
If a monk had only a 10% ability failure chance when wearing a mithral chain shirt, I'd use one in a heartbeat!
and if they are too much cheaper then classes like rangers and rogues will nab them too.
Heavens to Murgatroyd!
I agree that Bracers +4 should be more expensive than a mithral chain shirt, but fifteen times?
I was thinking the other day of a homebrew feat:
Unfettered
Benefit: Whenever you have no armor bonus or natural armor bonus to AC, you gain a +3 circumstance bonus to your AC. This increase by one for every four levels you have attained.
Special: If a character takes a level in a class that has medium or heavy armor proficiency, he may forfeit all armor proficiencies gained in exchange for this feat.
A monk can full attack for this [non-ki] damage all day, against creatures that are crit immune as well.It doesn't matter.
Being able to attack for pitiful damage "all day" isn't a useful ability. The practical difference between doing 15 DPR and 25 DPR is essentially nil. Under both circumstances, you are completely failing to make a reasonable contribution to the fight, pose no threat to level-appropriate foes (meaning CR of party level -4 or higher), and should not risk getting involved in melee save desperate circumstances.
If you are doing less DPR than the druid's pet you need to stand in the corner until you figure out how to do better.
so a 1-2 round kill on an appropriate CR monster is "pitiful"? Whatever ...
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It is and I'll say why. It's a 2 round kill in the best of circumstances; monster needs to move into you and is unable to chew through your pitiable AC for the kill. Monks are part of the one-trick pony world for the most part; sure they can charge-grapple casters, but mostly they are there to punch things. And as a one-trick pony, you expect way more advantages; Pally two-handers are a good example here. Instead, there's no melée class that you can point to that can't do your trick better.
That's the issue; people talk about the monk like they can do some neat flexible tricks that Nobody else can do; they should be able to, but they can't. They are about on par with a non-caster Druid without an animal companion, and just don't have the flexibility/ac of the fighter or the sustainability of Paladins. Of course their will save is a good bit better than the fighters, but even that is just on par with the pally.
I'm stuck, guys. Can someone make a monk who can survive melee, but also does damage that isn't pitiful?
Your wish is my command. You had the right idea with Melvin 1.0. Melvin 2.0 is a disgrace to optimization...I actually laughed when I read it. It was EXACTLY the kind of Monk I was discouraging with this guide.
I switched Melvin 1.0 with Melvin 1.1 - DPR does go down, but not much (around 50/round without Ki, around 62/round with Ki).
His AC went up by 6 for that price. This brings the AC overall in line with the other melee builds you posted (lower base by 1 or 2, but higher touch and flat footed). HP remained at the very respectable level they were at in the first place (near par with the fighter builds you posted).
I haven't statted the Fire Giant's damage to him now, but suffice it to say it will be significantly less.
Here's a solution, but it has some tricks in it. . .
* Dwarf vs. Fire Giant is obviously slanted to the dwarf. But that was the example creature and, as TM points out, dwarf is the best race for monk.
* I think it's a bad idea for the fire giant to Power Attack things with high AC. I had him Power Attacking anyway, but I don't think in the end the final outcome would have changed.
* I assume the monk has access to a large city to get a permanent magic fang spell cast on him.
Edit: swapped out useless Power Attack (for this example) for Improved Critical. . .
15 point buy monk, level 10, dwarf
18 (+2 belt) (+2 levels) (5)
16 (+2 belt) (5)
18 (+2 belt) (+2 racial) (5)
8 (-2)
18 (+2 head) (+2 racial) (5)
5 (-2 racial) (-3)
favored: +10 hp
ki pool: 11 points (5 level/2 + 4 Wis + 2 feat)
feats (free): Improved Unarmed Strike (1), Stunning Fist (1), Dodge (1), Deflect Arrows (2), Mobility (6), Improved Critical: Unarmed Strike (10)
picked: Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike (1), Extra Ki (3), Improved Initiative (5), Spring Attack (7), Vital Strike (9)
skills (3): acrobatics, perception, stealth
Gear: 62,000 gp for a level 10 character -- no item more than 50% of total gear (31,000)
20,000 holy amulet of mighty fists
16,000 belt of physical perfection
13,000 monk's robe
4,000 headband of inspired wisdom
2,950 permanency: magic fang (2,500 gp component + 450 spell casting)
4000 bracers of armor +2
2000 ring of protection +1
50 left overs
Initiative +7 (vs fire giant -1)
AC ~ 24 (+3 monk, +4 Wis, +3 Dex, +1 dodge, +2 bracers, +1 ring) FF 20, T 22
AC vs Fire Giant (+4 dwarf racial) using Ki Point: Dodge (+4) fighting defensively with acrobatics (+3) ~ 35
Assume Fire Giant uses Power Attack (-3 to hit, +9 damage /w greatsword)
Fire Giant needs 17 (.20), 20 (.05), 20(.05) to non-crit hit --
Chance to crit (19-20 threat) .02, 0.0025, 0.0025
damage: 3d6 + 24 ~ 34.5 per hit, +34.5 per crit
.20 * 34.5 + .05 * 34.5 + .05 * 34.5 + .02 * 34.5 + 0.0025 * 34.5 + 0.0025 * 34.5
6.9 + 1.725 + 1.725 + 0.69 + 0.08625 + 0.08625 = 11.2125 damage per round on average
hp: 8 first + 5 * 9 levels (45) + 4 * 10 Con (40) + 1 * 10 Favored (10) = 103
monk would survive, on average, for 10 rounds (assuming monk goes first, he'd die at the end of the 10th round)
monk single attack 7 BAB + 4 Str + 1 WF + 1 MF - 4 defensive ~ +10
monk FOB 10 BAB + 4 Str + 1 WF + 1 MF - 4 defensive ~ +12 (+10/+10/+5/+5)
damage (assume fire giant is evil): 2d6 Base (7) + 4 Str + 2d6 holy (7) + 1 MF ~ 19 per hit, +12 per crit
Fire Giant AC 23, 142 hp
Monk needs 13 (.40), 13 (.40), 18 (.15), 18 (.15) to non-crit hit
Chance to crit (19-20 threat) 0.04, 0.04, 0.015, 0.015
.40 * 19 + .40 * 19 + .15 * 19 + .15 * 19 + 0.04 * 12 + 0.04 * 12 + 0.015 * 12 + 0.015 * 12
7.6 + 7.6 + 2.85 + 2.85 + 0.48 + 0.48 + 0.18 + 0.18 = 22.22 damage per round
fire giant would survive, on average, for 7 rounds (assuming monk goes first, he'd attack 6 rounds and die on the 7th)
***Verdict***: monk wins solo versus fire giant on average if monk goes first, monk and fire giant threaten each other, fire giant is evil, fire giant Power Attacks all the time.
Sorry, I can't comment as I don't own the book.The temple sword is an exotic weapon that basically a long sword that aids the trip attacks and allows a monk to use their flurry ability with it.
Can't decide if its worth the feat to be able to flurry with a long sword. The trip option is okay but as you said in your guide, the monk is better off bull rushing or overrunning.
Thoughts?
I think it's worth a feat. At high levels you may want to switch to unarmed anyways - but until then, if nothing else it does more damage than normal Monk weapons (2 per hit on average - not including increased chance of crits)
Then it can't be recommended in any kind of guide if no one can agree how it works (:
Agreed. I hadn't considered that a Force Shield ring would be any more intrusive to Monk abilities than a Shield spell (being a force effect).
However, I do agree that it's debatable, and the way I read it (after your bolding) makes me concerned it may not work.
Therefore, I'll remove it from the guide.
Unarmed strike in 3.X/PF refers to all parts of the body -- head, knees, fists, etc. Magic fang buffs either a single natural weapon *or* all forms of unarmed strike.
I think you are right again. Hmmm...this creates some possibilities!
So... how does one get masterwork fists? Good genes?
I agree that enhancing fists is probably not a realistic option.
My opinion: Improved Unarmed Strike = Masterwork Fists. YMMV
It doesn't matter if he's not really carrying a shield, he wields the ring's force shield as a shield -- thus he loses AC bonuses.There's a 150 post thread about this very dumb argument around here somewhere. The upshot is that nobody knows how it's supposed to work.
Mage armor is not armor but force shield is a shield? LOL. Yes it is a dumb argument.
My opinion: Improved Unarmed Strike = Masterwork Fists. YMMV
This has been adressed (sorry can't find the thread).
fists can't be enhanced. If I find the thread I will post it.|
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okay, Zark?
listen.
150 post thread arguing about nothing but that point means that there's at least as many people who feel just as strongly as you obviously do, but in the exact opposite direction.
150+ post thread means drop the topic, don't express opinions on it, and certainly don't take a pot shot at a discussion you were not involved in.
I never saw it I don't think, but I have seen what happens when people just dismiss something that clearly is a source of much contention - they get eaten alive. Either they dive into the discussion and bring all the raging posts back without any new resolution, or they slide into the background and get tagged as trolls.
I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm just saying leave it completely alone, accept that half the player base will strongly disagree with whatever your opinion happens to be, and move on.
So lets NOT bring it up again and stay on topic.
okay, Zark?
listen.
150 post thread arguing about nothing but that point means that there's at least as many people who feel just as strongly as you obviously do, but in the exact opposite direction.
150+ post thread means drop the topic, don't express opinions on it, and certainly don't take a pot shot at a discussion you were not involved in.
Point taken. Thanks for the advice.
Defense is always a sucker bet.
No one will deny in a 3.X/PF system, defensive stats (saves/AC) are weakened by a natural 1 auto-failure. Without damage reduction built into armor (like the Unearthed Arcana armor as damage reduction variant), the natural 1 always haunts player characters. This is even more true for saving throws -- there's nothing like being disintegrated with a +30 Fortitude save bonus. That's where the save reroll feats and "luck" rerolls are so powerful.
Offense isn't always the best focus. I had a monk in one of my 3.5 games virtually always hit -- he was Strength based and had flanking feats to push his attack rolls very high. Still, he often found himself "tanking" and wishing he could push his AC ever higher. This guide advocates monk damage output as a focus -- which can be a good idea given the right situations. I prefer a "balanced" monk strategy with all physical stats pumped, a large Wisdom, and Cha/Int as "in the negatives" drop stats. With the consolidation of hide, move silently, spot, listen, search, balance, tumble, and jump into just 3 skills, you never really need more than that. I focus on offense and stats with gear. . . TM is right in that teamwork (particularly cheap mage armor wands) can make defense much easier.
If you buff your AC, saves, and energy damage reduction very high, you can withstand a large amount of punishment from lower CRs. Of course a level 10 character is going to have a rough time against a CR 10 monster solo -- that's a fight designed for around 4 to 5 level 10 players. I think in a long term comparison of the classes, the monk will probably have the capability to fight the largest amount of lower CR encounters. Monks can self-heal, monks can avoid many types of damage (evasion, SR), and most significantly -- monks can get away.
Offense is easier than defense, that's true. But I guess I make Wing Chun monks -- "The hand which strikes, also blocks."
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Did your balanced monk take less damage because he had better defenses? Or was it because he just didn't contribute much to a fight and thus didn't get attacked much? If you spend a significant amount of your resources buffing defenses, of course you'll take less damage. Not because defenses work well (they don't, the math really speaks to this) but because a defensive character flails ineffectively at foes and attracts no attention.
You're working off an assumption that damage = threat. That's not always true. . . in fact, in many situations it's not true. "Contributing" to a fight isn't always about damage. But a poorly geared character is never going to be as effective as a well-geared character. And let's face it, monks are poorly equipped by most players because the gear often sucks -- particularly in 3.5. The 3.5 amulet of mighty fists was pretty horrible for its cost and gave monks a pretty bad rep for damage output. A PF holy amulet of mighty fists + a permanent magic fang is pretty close in cost to a +3 weapon now -- a huge difference compared to the past.
It's telling that you highlight being able to run away from lower CR enemies as an advantage of the monk. I've never heard anyone complain about any other class's inability to run away from low-CR foes. Why do you suppose that is?
Generally speaking, no one can fight infinite enemies. At a certain point, you have to escape -- you generally have to sleep, eat, drink, refresh spell slots/uses per day, etc. There are ways around this with gear. . . but given a base class, the monk is best at fighting lots of smaller CR encounters partially because the monk *can* escape if he needs to. A wizard is very good at escaping too -- but no one will suggest that he can consistently deal with a huge number of monsters (unless they were all grouped in a 20-foot radius) with no consumable use. Sure, a bag of infinite fireball scrolls would be a nice item (:
You're working off an assumption that damage = threat. That's not always true. . . in fact, in many situations it's not true. "Contributing" to a fight isn't always about damage.
How else is the monk going to contribute the majority of the time?
Generally speaking, no one can fight infinite enemies. At a certain point, you have to escape -- you generally have to sleep, eat, drink, refresh spell slots/uses per day, etc.
Resting and running from a fight(escaping) are not the same thing.
How else is the monk going to contribute the majority of the time?
He can skirmish. Dodging melee and grappling an enemy spellcaster isn't big damage, but it can greatly contribute to a fight.
Resting and running from a fight(escaping) are not the same thing.
No, but they aren't mutually exclusive. A monk is good at escaping by being fast. By being good at escaping, it's easier for him to move to a safe place and rest.
I'm not arguing that the monk has had some serious problems in the past. Design-wise, I'm not saying they're great. But I think monks can be both effective team players (the skirmish role) and effective solo classes (excellent mobility, self-heal, evasion/strong saves).
And Wizards/Sorcerers often have grapple defenses too.
Dimension door for example is an excellent way to end a grapple.
Contingency is often set up specifically to deal with being grappled.
Spell Trigger items are also often specifically intended for "when I get grappled"
Sorcerers will also often have still spell in reserve for just such an occassion.
Nevermind that Wizards tend to fly around, often are more maneuverable than a Monk (Monks never come close to the speed of a phantom seed), etc.
Basically, making your Monk's primary focus grappling spellcasters is going to leave you pretty dissapointed I think.
I think grappling is a good secondary focus for Monks (since they can qualify for the greater version - and grappling is something that can be initiated with a standard action - for when Flurry isn't an option), but Str based Monks are better at grappling too, and grappling is never going to be your regular tactic in combat...it's too situational.
Caster level 7 + 6 Int + 4 combat casting = 17+d20 at the earliest level you can cast dimension door against 10+ 7(BAB) + 6(Str) +4(greater grapple) +4 (spell level)= 31...
The caster needs a 14... 18 if the grappler has disruptive, which only a fighter could have, and no monster (the most common grapplers) has.
That's assuming the following:
Int 20 at first level one level boost and a +2 item at level 7 with combat casting
against:
Fighter or other Full BAB with 20 str to begin with and a +2 strength item and improved and greater grappling.
So the wizard as a 35% chance of getting the spell off at the earliest possible level he can cast it but this is against the worse possible odds he could face at the time.
Casting defensively would have a DC of 15+8=23 so he could cast defensively (in comparision) on a 6 or better.
As a somewhat belated aside, if you want a melee character who can change into an animal, you're probably better off with potions (enough for Beast Shape I), 1/day magic items (skin of the bear, 1/day command word, 5400 gp), or similar.
If you have an easy going DM, she may allow you to split up minutes of Beast like some other items (boots of speed, items of Fly, etc.)
Even better, the thematic coolness of 'I drink a potion that transforms me into Mr. Hy... er, a big bear' or adopting animal skins to become that animal (skindancers, selkies, etc) is great.
Taking a bunch of levels of druid just for one of the class abilities? Meh.
As a somewhat belated aside, if you want a melee character who can change into an animal, you're probably better off with potions (enough for Beast Shape I), 1/day magic items (skin of the bear, 1/day command word, 5400 gp), or similar.
You can't make a potion out of Beast Shape since it's a "Personal" range spell.
Woops, I always miss that. Never made sense to me, but so amended.
Although it's more economical to go with a wondrous item, in this case.
Are there any magic items that would help a shuriken focused build? Aside from stat boosts for strength and dexterity, I'm not seeing anything that would help the damage output. Too bad bracers of archery don't work for all ranged attacks.
Magical shuriken also seem out of the question; given that they're treated as ammunition, getting them enhanced would quickly lead to the poorhouse.
If it helps, you can use TWF with shuriken. Easiest way to get a high rate of fire.
Maybe some sort of item that casts 'greater magic weapon' 1-2 times a day? That would help the ammunition costs.
IIRC there's some kind of quiver of energy in the MIC.
Gives 1d6 elemental damage to ammunition stored in it, you could custom create a shuriken holster of energy, or holy...
Are there any magic items that would help a shuriken focused build? Aside from stat boosts for strength and dexterity, I'm not seeing anything that would help the damage output. Too bad bracers of archery don't work for all ranged attacks.
Magical shuriken also seem out of the question; given that they're treated as ammunition, getting them enhanced would quickly lead to the poorhouse.
Good point. A shuriken that hits the target is used up (which I think is a little odd to be frank).
I think I would discuss the Shuriken build with the other players to see if GMW is an option. With the rate of fire a dedicated shuriken thrower will have, buying enchanted shuriken is going to hurt badly.
If it helps, you can use TWF with shuriken. Easiest way to get a high rate of fire.
Maybe some sort of item that casts 'greater magic weapon' 1-2 times a day? That would help the ammunition costs.
Would that stack with Flurry of blows? That would put out an impressive number of shuriken, if it were the case, though between that, deadly aim and rapid shot my attack bonus might not be incredibly good.
I think I would discuss the Shuriken build with the other players to see if GMW is an option. With the rate of fire a dedicated shuriken thrower will have, buying enchanted shuriken is going to hurt badly.
It's just theoretical at this point, so no party members to help along. I'll use it as an NPC boss fight eventually in a game I'm running though, but that I'm not too concerned about since I can bend whatever rules I need to make the monk beefy enough to pose a challenge for a party.
Does deadly aim work off the Monk's FoB attack bonus when making a flurry attack? The way the feat is worded makes me think not, but also seems like it should.
@ Sarandosil Yes, it would.
To carry the topic back a bit, grappling a spellcaster? Still a good move, provided they don't have freedom of movement. Contingency? You only have one of those at all and it's for grapple? Cool, I'll just grapple again next round. Dimension door? OK, you're out, my insane movement speed lets me charge tackle you like a football player with rockets for legs, enjoy wasting all your escape spells on this and eating an action every round. By the way my fighter buddy's sword thinks your keester looks like a good sheath. Freedom of movement is the only real answer to that, and if you cast it first turn then you're just blowing smoke and will get shoryuken'd when it's the monk's turn, if it's your contingency spell then you're actually doing something with it.
Just one spellcaster will get torn to bits by a monk and his buddy, or possibly by just the monk provided he can sneak up on the caster.
Oh, everyone forgot about that, did they? Well, let me ask the question then: Monk stealth- how can you use it?
Does deadly aim work off the Monk's FoB attack bonus when making a flurry attack? The way the feat is worded makes me think not, but also seems like it should.
For determining the -/+ of deadly aim, you would use the Monk's base BAB, not his flurry of blows BAB (so a 10th level Monk would use -2/+4)
@ Sarandosil Yes, it would.
Flurry of blows: "For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus."
Why would that not apply to Deadly Aim?
To carry the topic back a bit, grappling a spellcaster? Still a good move, provided they don't have freedom of movement.
I don't think anyone was suggesting it wasn't. Merely that it is circumstantial.
Contingency? You only have one of those at all and it's for grapple? Cool, I'll just grapple again next round.
Dealing with grapple is a common use for contingency. I've seen contingencies to deal with silence, but those are better dealt with by metamagic rod IMO.
In 3.5 the obvious choice was Benign Transposition with the party fighter or other big bruiser who is much happier grappling.
In Pathfinder I might go with a Mirror Image should anyone attempt a grapple against me. Not 100%, but pretty safe. It also keeps you safe in following rounds.
Dimension door? OK, you're out, my insane movement speed lets me charge tackle you like a football player with rockets for legs, enjoy wasting all your escape spells on this and eating an action every round.
Monk speeds are good - but they aren't "dimension door" good (Monk's can dimension door too - but can't do anything after a dimension door - so it's really not a solution in this case). Monk's more importantly lack the ability to use that speed when flying - making it less relevant as levels increase.
Just one spellcaster will get torn to bits by a monk and his buddy, or possibly by just the monk provided he can sneak up on the caster.
Oh, everyone forgot about that, did they?
I think nobody forgot, they just remembered Jack B Nimble trying to steal a chicken..
Monk speeds are good - but they aren't "dimension door" good (Monk's can dimension door too - but can't do anything after a dimension door - so it's really not a solution in this case). Monk's more importantly lack the ability to use that speed when flying - making it less relevant as levels increase.
That's why a source of continual Air Walk is important, but a little bit expensive,112 000 GP (2(duration modifier)*4(spell level)*7(caster level)*2000(base)). Or a freindly PC cleric, the monk is more buff dependant than other meeles, any way.
I think nobody forgot, they just remembered Jack B Nimble trying to steal a chicken..Just one spellcaster will get torn to bits by a monk and his buddy, or possibly by just the monk provided he can sneak up on the caster.
Oh, everyone forgot about that, did they?
If a monk sneaks into dimensional door range and then dimensional doors into the caster it would have a surprise round.
Its easier to sneak upon a person than upon a safe haven, also Jack B. Nimble example was rigged to fail.
Humbly,
Yawar
It is and I'll say why. It's a 2 round kill in the best of circumstances; monster needs to move into you and is unable to chew through your pitiable AC for the kill. Monks are part of the one-trick pony world for the most part; sure they can charge-grapple casters, but mostly they are there to punch things. And as a one-trick pony, you expect way more advantages; Pally two-handers are a good example here. Instead, there's no melée class that you can point to that can't do your trick better.
That's the issue; people talk about the monk like they can do some neat flexible tricks that Nobody else can do; they should be able to, but they can't. They are about on par with a non-caster Druid without an animal companion, and just don't have the flexibility/ac of the fighter or the sustainability of Paladins. Of course their will save is a good bit better than the fighters, but even that is just on par with the pally.
I am not sure I follow some of the reasoning here. It seems to me the general opinion is if the monk cant kill the monster in less then 2 rounds, it is horribly inferior. At the same time, if he dies in a round or 2, that is bad as well. Am I understanding the logic here?
And my giant post got deleted. Thanks, Paizo boards.
@ Treantmonk
I thought they were talking about using the feat, I agree that the BAB pertains to feat progression. Flurry BAB never even comes into play.
One fun trick to use stealth is to carry a pebble and cast darkness on it, or rub oil on the pebble to do so (Which sounds like dwarf erotica, but I digress). You carry this with you while in stealth mode. Never mind that the globe in incredibly obvious, you can hide from creatures with it. You can even hit them with a bunch of ranged attacks, since only creatures with darkvision can see into it. The trick was much more viable in 3.5, since darkvision was useless against the spell. Should you want to melee with it, either play a half-orc or dwarf or get blind-fight if you must.
There's also staying invisible for long periods of time, but wizard with arcane sight shuts that down as well as Batman wizard who has see invisible prepped (who does that?)
Also I agree with AMIB in that the actual stealth entry is a piece of garbage. I mean, single-celled organisms are "creatures" by definition. Someone should stat up micro-organisms and use them in their setting to completely stop stealth from working. CAN'T HIDE, THE BACTERIA CAN STILL SEE ME
Now, to stay on topic, how would it affect the monk's damage/other stuff if I houseruled the following:
1. Gauntlets can be used like unarmed strikes. They have the damage of the unarmed strike instead if it would be higher.
2. They can use ki strike through the gauntlets as well.
3. The bonus doesn't stack from magic fang/whatever (Most people already know this, but I like to be clear).
What about enchanting the gauntlets? Why should/shouldn't the monk have access to the damage boosting enchantments? Would the extra gold they get back really matter all that much?
And my giant post got deleted. Thanks, Paizo boards.
@ Treantmonk
I thought they were talking about using the feat, I agree that the BAB pertains to feat progression. Flurry BAB never even comes into play.
One fun trick to use stealth is to carry a pebble and cast darkness on it, or rub oil on the pebble to do so (Which sounds like dwarf erotica, but I digress). You carry this with you while in stealth mode. Never mind that the globe in incredibly obvious, you can hide from creatures with it. You can even hit them with a bunch of ranged attacks, since only creatures with darkvision can see into it. The trick was much more viable in 3.5, since darkvision was useless against the spell. Should you want to melee with it, either play a half-orc or dwarf or get blind-fight if you must.
There's also staying invisible for long periods of time, but wizard with arcane sight shuts that down as well as Batman wizard who has see invisible prepped (who does that?)
Also I agree with AMIB in that the actual stealth entry is a piece of garbage. I mean, single-celled organisms are "creatures" by definition. Someone should stat up micro-organisms and use them in their setting to completely stop stealth from working. CAN'T HIDE, THE BACTERIA CAN STILL SEE ME
Now, to stay on topic, how would it affect the monk's damage/other stuff if I houseruled the following:
1. Gauntlets can be used like unarmed strikes. They have the damage of the unarmed strike instead if it would be higher.
2. They can use ki strike through the gauntlets as well.
3. The bonus doesn't stack from magic fang/whatever (Most people already know this, but I like to be clear).
What about enchanting the gauntlets? Why should/shouldn't the monk have access to the damage boosting enchantments? Would the extra gold they get back really matter all that much?
First of all, in regards to stealth - if you can get a blur spell, that's a great way to use stealth (since you always have concealment). Same level as invisibility but doesn't go away if you attack someone.
As for gauntlets - I would houserule them with a clear conscience. It's really not going to unbalance anything IMO.
And my giant post got deleted. Thanks, Paizo boards.
Ctrl-A, Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V :) Either that or use the Lazarus plug-in for Firefox!