As part of my Exalted conversion, I invented goons which are 'half monsters' in the way that minions are 'quarter monsters': Goons are worth half the XP of a standard monster; they have half HP, deal minion damage, have no encounter powers, but have slightly better effects than minions. In the case of the dragon-bloods below, I gave them each an ally-boosting aura. Feel free to comment, critique or just steal ideas.
The Dragon-Bloods: For those of you not familiar with Exalted, these guys aren't actually dragon-like at all; they're just elementally-themed.
Medium Exalt
Initiative +0
Senses Perception +0
Flame Aura aura 2; the fire-blood and its allies within the aura deal 2 fire damage with each attack.
Hit Points 11; Bloodied 5
AC 13; Fortitude 11; Reflex 15; Will 13
Resist fire 15
Speed 6
Flame Arrow (standard; at-will)
Ranged 25/50; +8 vs. AC; 4 damage and 2 fire damage.
Short Sword (standard; at-will)
+6 vs. AC; 3 damage and 2 fire damage.
Alignment Unaligned
Languages Common
Str +1 Dex +0 Wis +0
Con +0 Int +5 Cha +3
Equipment Great Bow, Long Sword, Leather Armor
Mature Fire-Blood, level 6 goon artillery
Medium Exalt
Initiative +3
Senses Perception +3
Flame Aura aura 2; the fire-blood and its allies within the aura deal 4 fire damage with each attack.
Hit Points 26; Bloodied 13
AC 18; Fortitude 15; Reflex 20; Will 18
Resist fire 20
Speed 6
Flame Arrow (standard; at-will)
Ranged 25/50; +13 vs. AC; 6 damage and 4 fire damage.
Long Sword (standard; at-will)
+11 vs. AC; 4 damage and 4 fire damage.
Alignment Unaligned
Languages Common
Str +1 Dex +0 Wis +0
Con +0 Int +6 Cha +4
Equipment Great Bow, Long Sword, Leather Armor
Medium Exalt
Initiative +7
Senses Perception +0
Wind Aura aura 2; the air-blood and its allies within the aura add 1 square to every shift.
Hit Points 16; Bloodied 8
AC 15; Fortitude 13; Reflex 15; Will 11
Speed 6
Wind Blade (standard; at-will)
+6 vs. AC; 4 damage.
Wind Bow (standard; at-will)
Ranged 20/40; +6 vs. AC; 4 damage.
Wind Step (standard; at-will)
The air-blood moves its speed and makes a wind blade or wind bow attack at any point during that movement. The air-blood doesn’t provoke opportunity attacks when moving away from the target.
Languages Common
Str +0 Dex +5 Wis +0
Con +3 Int +0 Cha +1
Equipment Long Bow, Long Sword, Leather Armor
Mature Air-Blood, level 6 goon skirmisher
Medium Exalt
Initiative +11
Senses Perception +3
Wind Aura aura 2; the air-blood and its allies within the aura add 1 square to every shift.
Hit Points 37; Bloodied 18
AC 20; Fortitude 18; Reflex 20; Will 15
Speed 6
Wind Blade (standard; at-will)
+11 vs. AC; 6 damage.
Wind Bow (standard; at-will)
Ranged 20/40; +11 vs. AC; 6 damage.
Wind Step (standard; at-will)
The air-blood moves its speed and makes a wind blade or wind bow attack at any point during that movement. The air-blood doesn’t provoke opportunity attacks when moving away from the target.
Languages Common
Str +0 Dex +6 Wis +0
Con +4 Int +0 Cha +1
Equipment Long Bow, Long Sword, Leather Armor
Medium Exalt
Initiative +0
Senses Perception +0
Earth Aura aura 2; the earth-blood and its allies within the aura gain resist damage 2.
Hit Points 20; Bloodied 10
AC 13; Fortitude 15; Reflex 11; Will 13
Resist 2 to all damage
Speed 5
Stone Maul (standard; at-will)
+4 vs. AC; 5 damage.
Stone Hammer (standard; at-will)
Ranged 5/10; +4 vs. AC; 5 damage.
Languages Common
Str +0 Dex +0 Wis +0
Con +5 Int +1 Cha +3
Equipment Mordenkrad, Throwing Hammers, Scale Armor
Mature Earth-Blood, level 6 goon brute
Medium Exalt
Initiative +3
Senses Perception +3
Earth Aura aura 2; the earth-blood and its allies within the aura gain resist damage 4.
Hit Points 46; Bloodied 23
AC 18; Fortitude 20; Reflex 15; Will 18
Resist 4 to all damage
Speed 5
Stone Maul (standard; at-will)
+9 vs. AC; 8 damage.
Stone Hammer (standard; at-will)
Ranged 5/10; +9 vs. AC; 8 damage.
Alignment Unaligned
Languages Common
Str +0 Dex +0 Wis +0
Con +6 Int +1 Cha +4
Equipment Mordenkrad, Throwing Hammers, Scale Armor
Medium Exalt
Initiative +5
Senses Perception +0
Wood Aura aura 2; the wood-blood and its allies within the aura gain a +1 power bonus to AC.
Hit Points 13; Bloodied 6
AC 18; Fortitude 15; Reflex 13; Will 11
Speed 5
Thorn Spear (standard; at-will)
+8 vs. AC; 4 damage and target is marked until the end of the wood-blood’s next turn.
Vine Javelin (standard; at-will)
Ranged 10/20; +8 vs. AC; 4 damage.
Languages Common
Str +5 Dex +3 Wis +0
Con +0 Int +0 Cha +1
Equipment Great Spear, Javelins, Scale Armor
Mature Wood-Blood, level 6 goon soldier
Medium Exalt
Initiative +9
Senses Perception +3
Wood Aura aura 2; the wood-blood and its allies within the aura gain a +1 power bonus to AC.
Hit Points 33; Bloodied 16
AC 23; Fortitude 20; Reflex 18; Will 15
Speed 5
Thorn Spear (standard; at-will)
+13 vs. AC; 6 damage and target is marked until the end of the wood-blood’s next turn.
Vine Javelin (standard; at-will)
Ranged 10/20; +13 vs. AC; 6 damage.
Languages Common
Str +6 Dex +4 Wis +0
Con +0 Int +0 Cha +1
Equipment Great Spear, Javelins, Scale Armor
Medium Exalt
Initiative +3
Senses Perception +0
Water Aura aura 2; allies within the aura gain a +1 power bonus to Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses.
Hit Points 18; Bloodied 9
AC 15; Fortitude 16; Reflex 14; Will 12
Speed 6
Water Blast (standard; at-will)
Ranged 10; +4 vs. Fortitude; 4 damage and the target is pushed 3 squares.
Long Sword (standard; at-will)
+6 vs. AC; 4 damage.
Long Bow (standard; at-will)
Ranged 20/40; +6 vs. AC; 4 damage.
Languages Common
Str +0 Dex +3 Wis +0
Con +5 Int +0 Cha +1
Equipment Long Sword, Long Bow, Leather Armor
Mature Water-Blood, level 6 goon controller
Medium Exalt
Initiative +7
Senses Perception +3
Water Aura aura 2; allies within the aura gain a +1 power bonus to Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses.
Hit Points 39; Bloodied 19
AC 20; Fortitude 21; Reflex 19; Will 16
Speed 6
Water Blast (standard; at-will)
Blast 3; +9 vs. Fortitude; 6 damage and the target is pushed 4 squares.
Long Sword (standard; at-will)
+11 vs. AC; 6 damage.
Long Bow (standard; at-will)
Ranged 20/40; +11 vs. AC; 6 damage.
Languages Common
Str +0 Dex +4 Wis +0
Con +6 Int +0 Cha +1
Equipment Long Sword, Long Bow, Leather Armor
The Mortals: These guys exist only in the heroic tier.
Medium Mortal
Initiative +3
Senses Perception +3
Hit Points 1; a missed attack never damages a minion
AC 17; Fortitude 15; Reflex 11; Will 13
Speed 5
Long Spear (standard; at-will)
Reach 2; +8 vs. AC; 4 damage.
Alignment Unaligned
Languages Common
Str +5 Dex +1 Wis +3
Con +0 Int +0 Cha +0
Equipment Long Spear, Scale Armor
Captain, level 6 minion soldier
Medium Mortal
Initiative +6
Senses Perception +7
Hit Points 1; a missed attack never damages a minion
AC 22; Fortitude 20; Reflex 15; Will 18
Speed 5
Great Spear (standard; at-will)
Reach 2; +13 vs. AC; 6 damage.
Alignment Unaligned
Languages Common
Str +6 Dex +1 Wis +4
Con +0 Int +0 Cha +0
Equipment Great Spear, Scale Armor
Medium Mortal
Initiative +5
Senses Perception +3
Hit Points 1; a missed attack never damages a minion
AC 13; Fortitude 11; Reflex 15; Will 13
Speed 6
Long Bow (standard; at-will)
Ranged 20/40; +8 vs. AC; 4 damage.
Short Sword (standard; at-will)
+6 vs. AC; 3 damage.
Alignment Unaligned
Languages Common
Str +1 Dex +5 Wis +3
Con +0 Int +0 Cha +0
Equipment Long Bow, Short Sword, Leather Armor
Expert Archer, level 6 minion artillery
Medium Mortal
Initiative +9
Senses Perception +7
Hit Points 1; a missed attack never damages a minion
AC 18; Fortitude 15; Reflex 20; Will 18
Speed 6
Great Bow (standard; at-will)
Ranged 25/50; +13 vs. AC; 6 damage.
Short Sword (standard; at-will)
+11 vs. AC; 4 damage.
Alignment Unaligned
Languages Common
Str +1 Dex +6 Wis +4
Con +0 Int +0 Cha +0
Equipment Great Bow, Short Sword, Leather Armor
Medium Mortal
Initiative +0
Senses Perception +0
Hit Points 1; a missed attack never damages a minion
AC 15; Fortitude 11; Reflex 13; Will 15
Speed 6
Staff (standard; at-will)
+6 vs. AC; 4 damage.
Dragon’s Curse (standard; at-will)
Ranged 10; +4 vs. Will; the target takes a -2 penalty to defenses until the end of the priest’s next turn.
Alignment Unaligned
Languages Common
Str +0 Dex +0 Wis +0
Con +1 Int +3 Cha +5
Equipment Staff
Bishop, level 6 minion controller
Medium Mortal
Initiative +3
Senses Perception +3
Hit Points 1; a missed attack never damages a minion
AC 20; Fortitude 15; Reflex 18; Will 20
Speed 6
Staff (standard; at-will)
+6 vs. AC; 6 damage.
Dragon’s Curse (standard; at-will)
Ranged 10; +9 vs. Will; the target takes a -2 penalty to defenses until the end of the bishop’s next turn.
Alignment Unaligned
Languages Common
Str +0 Dex +0 Wis +0
Con +1 Int +4 Cha +6
Equipment Staff
Medium Mortal
Initiative +7
Senses Perception +0
Hit Points 1; a missed attack never damages a minion
AC 15; Fortitude 13; Reflex 15; Will 11
Speed 6
Short Bow (standard; at-will)
Ranged 15/30; +6 vs. AC; 4 damage.
Short Sword (standard; at-will)
+6 vs. AC; 4 damage.
Shifty (minor; at-will)
The bandit shifts 1 square.
Alignment Unaligned
Languages Common
Str +3 Dex +5 Wis +0
Con +0 Int +0 Cha +1
Equipment Short Bow, Short Sword, Leather Armor
Bandit Warlord, level 6 minion skirmisher
Medium Mortal
Initiative +11
Senses Perception +3
Hit Points 1; a missed attack never damages a minion
AC 20; Fortitude 18; Reflex 20; Will 15
Speed 6
Long Bow (standard; at-will)
Ranged 20/40; +11 vs. AC; 6 damage.
Long Sword (standard; at-will)
+11 vs. AC; 6 damage.
Shifty (minor; at-will)
The bandit shifts 1 square.
Alignment Unaligned
Languages Common
Str +4 Dex +6 Wis +0
Con +0 Int +0 Cha +1
Equipment Long Bow, Long Sword, Leather Armor
The Death Knights
Medium Exalt
Initiative +9
Senses Perception +0; darkvision
Shadow Ward aura 2; the death knight and its allies within the aura gain concealment.
Hit Points 22; Bloodied 11
AC 15; Fortitude 13; Reflex 15; Will 11
Resist necrotic 15
Speed 6; shadow teleport 6
Sly Blade (standard; at-will)
+6 vs. AC; 1d4+4 damage.
Sly Blade (standard; at-will)
Ranged 5/10; +6 vs. AC; 1d4+4 damage.
Hungry Blade (standard; encounter)
+6 vs. AC; 1d6+8 damage and ongoing 5 necrotic damage (save ends).
Combat Advantage
The Death Knight deals an extra 4 damage to foes against which it has combat advantage.
Alignment Evil
Languages Common
Skills Stealth +10
Str +3 Dex +5 Wis +0
Con +0 Int +0 Cha +1
Equipment Jagged Blade, Leather Armor
Mature Death Knight, level 6 lurker
Medium Exalt
Initiative +13
Senses Perception +3; darkvision
Shadow Ward aura 2; the death knight and its allies within the aura gain concealment.
Hit Points 52; Bloodied 26
AC 15; Fortitude 18; Reflex 20; Will 15
Resist necrotic 20
Speed 6; shadow teleport 6
Sly Blade (standard; at-will)
+6 vs. AC; 2d4+5 damage.
Sly Blade (standard; at-will)
Ranged 5/10; +6 vs. AC; 2d4+5 damage.
Hungry Blade (standard; encounter)
+6 vs. AC; 2d6+10 damage and ongoing 5 necrotic damage (save ends).
Combat Advantage
The Death Knight deals an extra 4 damage to foes against which it has combat advantage.
Alignment Evil
Languages Common
Skills Stealth +14
Str +4 Dex +6 Wis +0
Con +0 Int +0 Cha +1
Equipment Jagged Blade, Leather Armor
Since no one else commented, I applaud your concept of a Goon. I have no idea what the XP would be and whether it is balanced. I don't play Exalted, but Goons should be fun.
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Player - "I hit him for five damage; so the Minion is dead."
DM - "Did I say he was a Minion? He is still alive and as a matter of fact he hits you for 24 fire damage."
Player - "What? He must be a Minion; there are twelve of them! You are cheating."
DM - "No, he is not a Minion and I am not 'cheating'. I am using exciting new monsters concepts to keep you on your toes. Did you take that fire damage? Oh, and On-going Fire Damage 5."
Where's this conversion. I love Exalted and I'd love to play a 4E version.
As part of my Exalted conversion, I invented goons which are 'half monsters' in the way that minions are 'quarter monsters': Goons are worth half the XP of a standard monster; they have half HP, deal minion damage, have no encounter powers, but have slightly better effects than minions. In the case of the dragon-bloods below, I gave them each an ally-boosting aura. Feel free to comment, critique or just steal ideas.
Hi - I'm a relative newbie so I'd take my comments with a grain of salt. Nonetheless, I'm going to make them anyway. :p
It seems to me that putting goons on half hit points is a significant increase in their power level to that of a minion, perhaps moreso than the experience differential you outline would suggest. I think the onehitandtheyredead-ness of minions is a big factor in how they work - as you have set it up, I suspect a group of goons would be far more troublesome than a group of minions constructed with the same experience point 'budget'.
FWIW I'd suggest reducing goons to 1/3 or even 1/4 hit points of a standard monster, whilst still giving them the exeperience value of half a standard monster. I'd also be curious whether you intended that they take damage from a miss attack - I think that makes a difference to what I wrote above.
As I said though - I dont have much experience with 4th edition. I'm more bumping this in the hopes that someone who does know the system well will comment.
Since no one else commented, I applaud your concept of a Goon. I have no idea what the XP would be and whether it is balanced. I don't play Exalted, but Goons should be fun.
Honestly, I don't use XP. I design encounters using the Equivalency Rule: an average fight is 1 monster per 1 PC. A solo is worth 5 PCs (although usually not much fun), an elite is worth 2 PCs, four minions are worth 1 PC and two goons are worth 1 PC. Works out well for me, and I don't have to use a calculator.
Where's this conversion. I love Exalted and I'd love to play a 4E version.
There's still a lot to do, but you can find a pdf of Exalted's 'monsters' here and a pdf of Superior Implements and Weapons here that'll work for any campaign. For exalted, I'll give each PC a free Superior Implement or Weapon proficiency to ensure a reasonable amount of wackiness.
It seems to me that putting goons on half hit points is a significant increase in their power level to that of a minion, perhaps moreso than the experience differential you outline would suggest. I think the onehitandtheyredead-ness of minions is a big factor in how they work - as you have set it up, I suspect a group of goons would be far more troublesome than a group of minions constructed with the same experience point 'budget'.
FWIW I'd suggest reducing goons to 1/3 or even 1/4 hit points of a standard monster, whilst still giving them the exeperience value of half a standard monster. I'd also be curious whether you intended that they take damage from a miss attack - I think that makes a difference to what I wrote above.
I'm actually worried that goons will be too easy; with half hit points a couple hits will kill them (they do take damage on a miss FYI) and the only do as much damage as minions. You may be right, but I'll wait until they get play tested to render judgment.
Personally, I think that this adds unnecessary complication to minions. One of the main reasons to use minions is so that you don't need to track hp for them... by creating a stronger version of minions that have a relatively small number of hp, that advantage is completely negated.
Perhaps, instead of a numerical value for hp for these guys, just give them a bloodied state. So now, the first hit on the goon reduces it to bloodied (with all the mechanics that are included in that), and another hit kills it.
Perhaps, instead of a numerical value for hp for these guys, just give them a bloodied state. So now, the first hit on the goon reduces it to bloodied (with all the mechanics that are included in that), and another hit kills it.
I was think of 'two hits equals kill' but i like this better. The Bloodied idea works other aspects of the system.
I like the idea of two hit minions, with the first making them bloodied. Great idea!
In the last combat in which I had minions, I had included an elite of 2 levels higher than the party and then 4 minions 2 levels higher than the party... but to just let the minions die on one hit was too boring, so I gave them about 1/3 normal hit points, which translated to about 2 to 4 hits to kill them, depending on who was doing the hitting.
Because it was only 5 monsters total, it wasn't an accounting problem and it worked really well at giving the party some danger but keeping the combat short.
Perhaps, instead of a numerical value for hp for these guys, just give them a bloodied state. So now, the first hit on the goon reduces it to bloodied (with all the mechanics that are included in that), and another hit kills it.
That is a great idea, but I'm torn about it: on one hand it would be simpler, and it would assuage my conscience in raising goon damage to normal values. On the other hand goons beyond 1st level with hit points will give players a reason to use their encounter powers, and I have a striker-loving player who brings me snacks as long as she's happy. What can I say? Minions do take away strikers' shtick, and I'm not above accepting bribery. ;)
I guess I haven't decided yet.
After some reflection, I think I can have my cake and eat it too:
Goons have 2 hit points, and are bloodied at 1 hit point.
--A goon takes 1 damage from any damaging at-will power.
--A goon takes 2 damage from any damaging encounter or daily power, from a critical hit caused by any damaging power and from any damaging power augmented by a striker's bonus dice.
Thoughts? It looks somewhat awkward in writing but I think they're pretty intuitive, so it shouldn't cause any fuss during play.
After some reflection, I think I can have my cake and eat it too:
Goons have 2 hit points, and are bloodied at 1 hit point.
--A goon takes 1 damage from any damaging at-will power.
--A goon takes 2 damage from any damaging encounter or daily power, from a critical hit caused by any damaging power and from any damaging power augmented by a striker's bonus dice.
Thoughts? It looks somewhat awkward in writing but I think they're pretty intuitive, so it shouldn't cause any fuss during play.
I say play with it a bit. You're on a good track, I think. I think you're really bridging the "goons have 2 hp" rule with your initial "half hp" rule. Encounter powers and dailies do much more damage anyway, so the fact that these powers do 2 points to a good makes some intuitive sense to me, too (although it creates yet more of a gamist abstraction).
My advice instead would be to have a damage 'threshold'. Say, a level 5 minion has a 15 point threshold. If they take damage less than that, they become bloodied, and any future hit kills them. If they take damage equal to their threshold or higher, the attack slays them out-right.
Not a bad idea. You'd need to do some math to get the exact threshold right... would 10+level work out, even through the epic levels? How much damage will a non-optimized 30th level character do with an at-will attack?
Another idea is to mix in Vulnerabilities in there as well - undead goons auto-killed by any radiant attack, etc.
High damage barbarian at-wills count as striker damage, even though there are no actual bonus dice involved. Man, there's just no good way to define that strikery-focus without listing examples.
The threshold idea could work, but I don't feel motivated to work it out right now. At-will damage increases only glacially until 21st level, when it jumps up...so the numbers would look odd...or change in dynamic significantly...it would make specific damage values important unlike minion hp does...and I just kinda don't like shaman companion-style 'popable' combatants...meh. Maybe I'm just having a frumpy moment.
Another idea is to mix in Vulnerabilities in there as well - undead goons auto-killed by any radiant attack, etc.
I do like this; any attack that goes above and beyond basic at-will damage should kill a goon.
I would to know if anyone has addressed minions or goons, and found a successful way to incorporate them into the game. I like the idea of minions or "cannon fodder" but never liked the static damage or 1 hp to take one out. It is hard not to metagame when hit by one, and I was curious if anyone has implemented the idea on this thread or something similar.
I would to know if anyone has addressed minions or goons, and found a successful way to incorporate them into the game. I like the idea of minions or "cannon fodder" but never liked the static damage or 1 hp to take one out. It is hard not to metagame when hit by one, and I was curious if anyone has implemented the idea on this thread or something similar.
I don't think it's metagaming to recognize a minion/goon after it deals a flat amount of damage, and then act accordingly. When one of my minions/goons hits a PC for a flat amount of damage, the character can tell how unskilled and relatively defenseless the monster is because its attack was so clumsy.
I would to know if anyone has addressed minions or goons, and found a successful way to incorporate them into the game. I like the idea of minions or "cannon fodder" but never liked the static damage or 1 hp to take one out. It is hard not to metagame when hit by one, and I was curious if anyone has implemented the idea on this thread or something similar.
You could just toss dice and not pay attention to the result...but I tend to agree that by the time the PCs are taking hits from the minions or smacking them down the shctick is up anyway and its probably not worth the trouble of hiding this info from them. At this point the gig will be up as one dies to a hit probably within the next half a round or so anyway.
Oh and I love the two hit minions with a bloodied score in between. Personally I have no qualms at all about the issue of a player with high damage suddenly not being 'better' then the rest of the players - in fact I'd go so far as to say that situations that push the players away from maxing out pure hp damage are always a big plus in my book. There are more then enough cases where high damage output is a good thing to mean that the Barbarian Striker is not going to suddenly morph into an underpowered class.
Typically, for static damage, I just take the closest die and roll randomly. As to 1 hp to kill, I do like the idea of two hits, with a bloodied state because that falls in line with normal creatures, and is one more method of blending minions in with the rest.