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So with the release of the PRPG, I'm about to do a reboot/AU of a high level on again/off again campaign I've run since undergraduate. Everyone is really excited (I think), I've been inspired by a book series to have a great story arc, people are statting up characters, etc.
There's just one problem (so far). Starting wealth. Specifically, some of the spellcasters are arguing that taking item creation feats entitles them to a discount on related items when choosing their gear for being above first level.
For example: 20th level characters are listed as having 880,000 gp in equipment. One 20th level spellcaster has the forge ring feat. Does his ring of protection +5 count as 50,000 gp of his equipment or only 25,000 (the cost to create it)? Multiply said questions by a large number of diverse feats, throw in the potential for failures/cursed items due to botched Spellcraft checks...
In the past (3.x) I have allowed this, usually as an encouragement to take the item creation feats. With the removal of the XP cost I'm not sure if this is necessary, besides there is no longer the threat of "abuse this and I'll dock you a level." For the record, I've NEVER had to follow through with that threat. I've been very lucky with regard to players.
Now, the non-casters as well as two of the spellcaster argue that, at least initially, no one should get a "crafter discount." This argument seems particuarly persuasive since the section on generating characters above 1st level does not mention the use of item creation feats. The proposed counter is that disallowing the discount penalizes the player for taking a "useless" feat.
What I was wondering is that for people who routinely start at mid to high levels what rules do you use? Do you give everyone the same amount of equipment or allow a "did it myself discount?"
I'd appreciate it if my players refrained from posting in this topic (I'm looking at you Taka, Lurion, and Sprith). I've heard your arguments, now I'd like to hear from other DMs/Players.
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Wealth by Level is an approximation of the value of equipment that's appropriate for a character of a given level, not a lump sum of gold that just appears on their doorstep to go shopping with or buy supplies to make their own stuff. If they want the item creation feats, that's great, but they should only apply to items made after the campaign begins.
Still, to be fair, I'd give them an extra 10% that can be spent on items their character has the appropriate feats for. That reflects some of the savings they've had, but doesn't blow the equations out of proportion.
[RBDM Mode] If they players insist on making the items themselves, that's fine too. Calculate the requisite DC's to make each item and make them roll for it for every item they create. Increase the DC for the prerequisites they don't meet themselves too (no help from other PC's or NPC's as it's in the pre-game).
Have the rolls made secretly too (behind your screen). Keep an eye out for failed rolls and cursed items. Keep track of how much gold they lost from failed rolls and subtract it from their totals starting wealth. Odds are they'll get most of what they want, but will have a few cursed items they don't know about and may even lose some gold from failing to make the more powerful items.
[/RBDM Mode]
Another, overly generous IMO, option is you may also want to allow a fixed amount of creation time. Allocate 1 year of creation time at 1000gp/day (365,000 gp) and let them spend it as they see fit. Anything they can make in that time is fine, provided they can make the rolls. The rest is purchased at normal costs.
Good luck in your campaign. It should be interesting. Not a lot of high-level PRPG reports are out there, so I'd be interested to see how it goes.
Oh no worries! I wont do anything to sway the views of the community on this one. BUT... I will bump this thread due to its great importance to me!
And if I have to, I'll bump it again, and again, and... well you get the idea.
with item creation feats, you are basically selling your feat slots for cash. i think the transaction should be rewarded with extra wealth.
That is where I disagree. If I'm setting a starting value for magic... it's because it's a measure of how much magic I want the characters to have. The payoff for item creation feats is the option of making your own in the future... not to break past my set starting limits for magical goodies. If you believe that this does not encourage the creation of item crafters... then you are right... It is not my intention to do so.
Obviously this is only my opinion, but....
1) If someone has taken an item creation feat for a character that is already generated, I think that SOME of his items should be crafted and some should be gained through normal channels. It is silly to think that someone has taken a feat (or multiple ones) and not used them up to that point. Now, if someone took craft wondrous item, I'd say that maybe 30% of his stuff was crafted. roll it randomly if you wish.or
2) What's to prevent someone in your game from saying "I've liquidated most of my items, and just have a big bag of gold. When the game starts, we aren't going anywhere for 2 months, as I'm going to sit in my little room and craft things for a while." ?
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A good compromise that I'm going to be implementing is the Craft Point system from Unearthed Arcana 3.5. If you don't know what it is, it basically gives players an allotment of points that they can use when crafting items. They get a set amount of points on every level up, and they do roll over, and when you take item creation feats you also get a specific amount of 'bonus points'. When you make an item, you spend the requisite amount of points (I think it's 1/10th the amount of gold the item costs) and gold, and the item is created one day later. This goes for both magic items and mundane items, and you can still work as normal to avoid paying craft points (as the only way to get more is to level up and/or taking creation feats). The logic behind it is that you were working on the item in your spare time for awhile now, and just now got around to finishing it.
I'm going to use it in my next game to encourage my party to do some crafting themselves, but it could easily be a nice tool for higher-level parties to start out as well. They can only start with as many crafted items as their Craft Point reserve would allow, since the point system cuts down the time to a single day of crafting no matter what.
Every level, you gain 100 craft points for every level you have. For instance, you start with 100, then at level 2 you gain another 200, at level 3 you gain another 300, and so on and so forth.
The way I ruled it for a few one offs was you "buy" durable magic items at market price, but single use items at crafter cost, BUT unless you craft it, you are restricted to "book" items. That last bit isn't much of an issue if you are using MIC or similar, but I used to LOVE stacking odd spell effects on my armor (Like emergency CSW 3x day) or designing my own staves and such. So potions and scrolls you get a discount, wands, items, weapons, etc no.
But I guess a party member could "sell" crafted items to other party members at or close to crafter cost, but I have yet to see players do this for one offs.
For my group, I always assign a percentage of their wealth that can be used to craft items. As well as a limit to the number of items depending on the level we are starting and the magic level of the campaign.
The reason i do this, is part of the benefit of taking this feat is reduced costs for some of your items. In my opinion, saying you dont get to use this feat untill sometime in the future is like saying a fighter's weapon focus doesnt apply untill the 5th session of the campaign. It isnt fair.
Now in the event the player wants to craft items for other members of the party, this is acceptable, but it still counts towards his percentage of starting wealth cap and maximum number of crafted items. So if he wanted to say, craft a wand and a rod for himself and a sword for the figther, instead of all items for himself, that is fine, but the total crafting must fall under the % limit based solely on his wealth, and must be fewer then the limit set for a single player.
I think a great deal of it depends on what the item is:
A really powerful weapon might give an unfair advantage over other players, but the +5 ring of protection you mentioned would simply be equalizing the Wizard's obscenely low AC since he doesn't use the armor other party members have. And would anybody worry if it was simply a half-price cloak of elvenkind?
Basic rule of thumb...let them get the discount unless you feel it give the caster an unfair advantage. Also if they are going to get the discount, you should still put a max limit: for example if you were going to let them make a 50K GP item for 25K, that would be fine, but don't let them make a 100K GP item for 50K, as it would be unbalanced. Let the caster use the discount for multiple items, fine but not one humongous one.