|
ok I do understand NO magic works within the mana wastes...
but there is mention of haunts and undeads in the Mana Wastes... so while I do believe no golem or other simialr construct would work within the Mana Wastes, we have undead... so at least those with a powerful connection to the negative plane can exist there (not tose created and controled by necromancy, mind you)
meaning... could a priest, otherwise cut form their magic, channel possitive or negative energy within the mana wastes?
what would be the official common sense? or what would people believe?
so while I do believe no golem or other simialr construct would work within the Mana Wastes
I'm not sure of that. They're not spells.
, we have undead... so at least those with a powerful connection to the negative plane can exist there (not tose created and controled by necromancy, mind you)
Undead is undead. If you take someone killed by a fireball into the mana wastes, he won't live again, even though he's killed by magic.
Whether an undead is animated by magic or spontaneously, the magic used to animate them is gone the moment it's cast. After that, there's the connection to Unlife, to the Negative. That works no matter how you get it.
meaning... could a priest, otherwise cut form their magic, channel possitive or negative energy within the mana wastes?
I'd say yes. It's not magical, it's supernatural. You channel the power of the energy planes.
|
Contributor
|
Hopping around the Campaign Setting to the various places where the Mana Wastes are discussed (thank goodness for PDFs), the Mana Wastes are generally described as "magic-dead".
I suppose that term is somewhat open to interpretation, but if you take a "magic-dead" zone to be equivalent to an "anti-magic field" then all magic ceases to function, including supernatural and spell-like abilities, and "always on" magic applied to weapons and items would be suppressed. That would, of course, remove the ability to channel energy of any kind.
I'm not sure if that is the intent, though. If so, it would mean that the creatures that do exist there (aberrations and undead seem to be prominent), would have only extraordinary abilities.
Allowing creatures in the Mana Wastes to use supernatural or spell-like abilities while taking them away from players would require some kind of story-based explanation. In my view, it would also mean that a character who could discover the secrets of the Mana Wastes might be able to get his own magical abilities to function there, too.
|
|
no Paris, my intent was just to determine if or not energy channeling works...
when reading about dragons it mentioned that in a place without magic (or dead-magic zone) they would slowly die, in the same way if a magic weapon is not magic any more I would say a Golem and similar would stop...
my point is... there are undeads, I suppose magic effects and sepll like abilities would not work, but supernatural abilities connected to the engative plain would... otherwise the undeads should languish and stop existing in a similar way as dragons would...
that brought to me, if there is a connection with the negative plane, considering its just the opposite it should exist to the possitive, as KaeYoss I read that surely its available the option...
but I want to hear the opinions of others
by the way thanks Paris, I do understand your perspective, and no the idea is not take things from the players and leave them to the monsters, but to look for options for some monsters to exist, and maybe for not so heavy existance for those living there.
Haven't read that part about dragons and magic-dead zones. Where is that from?
|
Contributor
|
Sorry for the confusion, Montalve. I understood your question, but I didn't really provide a very good answer. ;-)
What I meant was, I'm not sure if the intent of the writers (whichever one of the Paizonians it was who contributed the Mana Wastes to the setting), was for the place to be completely magic-dead or just "magic-twisted" to the point where "normal" uses of magic don't function.
In my view, no spells, supernatural abilities or spell-like abilities work in the Mana Wastes, which means that channeling won't work, either.
As KaeYoss said earlier, the magic that creates an undead creature ends the moment the spell takes effect. In my view, undead don't have an open connection to the Negative Plane. What they have is some amount of negative energy in them that forms a mockery of life...it is a reflection or the opposite of a soul. Unlife is a condition...a form of existence, rather than a magical effect, so it wouldn't be undone just by having the undead enter a magic-dead area.
The fact that undead can exist in the Mana Wastes is similar to the fact that mortals can stay in the Mana Wastes without automatically dying. Other things might kill them, but simply being there won't drain away or snuff out their life force.
Channeling energy is an action...it requires forming a connection to the Positive or Negative Energy Plane so that you can bring that energy through you and into the Material Plane. The fact that clerics have to call upon their deity to do this indicates to me that there is some active magic involved in the process. I believe it is that magic that the Mana Wastes would disrupt, preventing the channeling of energy from taking place.
As for dragons, montalve's recollection is from page 67 of Pathfinder #4. Dragons who spend an extended period of time cut off from magic (i.e., years), will enter a state of hibernation that they call pakthryxl, which translates roughly to "doomed life". After decades in this condition, the dragon simply dies.
|
|
As for dragons, montalve's recollection is from page 67 of Pathfinder #4. Dragons who spend an extended period of time cut off from magic (i.e., years), will enter a state of hibernation that they call pakthryxl, which translates roughly to "doomed life". After decades in this condition, the dragon simply dies.
of course the only dragon who would have died that way would have to be really foolish or already hibernating
I understand your point, and would usually agree, but there are many undeads with a direct connection to the negative plane... while zombies and skeletons don't have it... for example haunts and vampries do have it...
this connection is represented in their dran energy ability, where they transfer some of the engative energy inside them to destroy life (and levels, je sorry old Ravenloft fan... that is why I believe the connection to be open)
and having read the Great Beyond to see if somethign is explained about those 2 plains or i will need to wait for Classic Horror Revisited
|
Okay, my take on the Mana Waste was that no arcane magic works there. I would still allow divine magic to work, because that comes by channeling godly energy. Obviously, if divine powers did not function there and the gods ceased to be if they entered that domain, the gods would have disposed of the rough beast there a long time ago.
As for dragons, montalve's recollection is from page 67 of Pathfinder #4. Dragons who spend an extended period of time cut off from magic (i.e., years), will enter a state of hibernation that they call pakthryxl, which translates roughly to "doomed life". After decades in this condition, the dragon simply dies.of course the only dragon who would have died that way would have to be really foolish or already hibernating
I understand your point, and would usually agree, but there are many undeads with a direct connection to the negative plane... while zombies and skeletons don't have it... for example haunts and vampries do have it...
this connection is represented in their dran energy ability, where they transfer some of the engative energy inside them to destroy life (and levels, je sorry old Ravenloft fan... that is why I believe the connection to be open)
and having read the Great Beyond to see if somethign is explained about those 2 plains or i will need to wait for Classic Horror Revisited
Re-read the description for anti-magic field. Incorporeal undead are negated within the confines of an anti-magic or magic dead area. Corporeal undead, golems, outsiders, basically anything not summoned, are fine. Their supernatural (su) and spell like (sp) abilities are suppressed, but (ex) abilities remain.
Okay, my take on the Mana Waste was that no arcane magic works there. I would still allow divine magic to work, because that comes by channeling godly energy. Obviously, if divine powers did not function there and the gods ceased to be if they entered that domain, the gods would have disposed of the rough beast there a long time ago.
According to the time line present in the Campaign Setting and Gazatteer, the Mana Wastes were created many millenia after the Rough Beast was imprisoned. I doubt the Gods would chance freeing the Beast just to move it to a magic dead area.
|
|
Re-read the description for anti-magic field. Incorporeal undead are negated within the confines of an anti-magic or magic dead area. Corporeal undead, golems, outsiders, basically anything not summoned, are fine. Their supernatural (su) and spell like (sp) abilities are suppressed, but (ex) abilities remain.
thanks F33b
mmmm ok now we have a discrepansy here... we have haunts inside a castle in Aklenstar....so how would oen explain that... mmm
|
Contributor
|
Re-read the description for anti-magic field. Incorporeal undead are negated within the confines of an anti-magic or magic dead area. Corporeal undead, golems, outsiders, basically anything not summoned, are fine. Their supernatural (su) and spell like (sp) abilities are suppressed, but (ex) abilities remain.
Right. Which goes along with what I went back to verify. A vampire's energy drain ability is supernatural, which means that it wouldn't work in a magic-dead area. I see the energy drain working very similarly to channeling. The vampire calls on a magical connection to the Negative Energy Plane, and uses himself as a conduit to siphon the character's life energy. That's my view, anyway.
By the "magic-dead equals anti-magic" argument, a 3.5e vampire in the Mana Wastes would only get the blood drain special attack (losing children of the night, dominate, create spawn, and energy drain). He would also lose alternate form, damage reduction, and gaseous form. He'd still have fast healing, resistances to cold and electricity, spider climb, and turn resistance (although he wouldn't really need it, given my stance on channeling positive energy. ;-) )
This goes back to my original point, which was poorly worded. I'm not sure exactly what creatures are lurking in the Mana Wastes, but if the region truly is magic-dead, they would have to rely solely on extraordinary abilities. In order for them to have any other kind of ability, then the description of the Mana Wastes needs to be clarified to explain how some supernatural or spell-like abilities can function while others can't.
Another way to read the book is that the Mana Wastes, themselves are a region of twisted, unreliable magic and only Alkenstar is magic-dead. The very first paragraph on Alkenstar says, "on the edge of the reality-warping Mana Wastes, hides the magic-dead but resource-rich Grand Duchy of Alkenstar" (Pathfinder Campaign Setting Hardcover, pg 56). I could interpret that sentence to mean that the Mana Wastes are a region of wild magic (though I don't like the connotations of the term), while Alkenstar is a sub-region of dead magic.
However, it still doesn't explain how non-corporeal undead can exist in the magic-dead zone of Alkenstar.
|
Contributor
|
Okay, my take on the Mana Waste was that no arcane magic works there. I would still allow divine magic to work, because that comes by channeling godly energy. Obviously, if divine powers did not function there and the gods ceased to be if they entered that domain, the gods would have disposed of the rough beast there a long time ago.
I don't know, David. Blocking a mortal's connection to divine power is a far cry from snuffing out a deity. I would say that the magic-dead zone only applies to the kind of magic that mortals can currently wield. I mean, if the pre-ascension Aroden were around, I bet he'd have a way do deal with the Mana Wastes--at least on a temporary basis. That was a guy who called up an entire city just because he felt like it. Similarly, Geb and Nex were powerful enough to create the Mana Wastes, but that was over 4000 years ago.
Montalve, I've done some more digging and found this reference in the chapter on Geb: "Rogue elementals, barghests, sandkrakens, and will-o’-wisps all occasionally wander across the border, as do the mana-twisted undead personifications of the warped magics found in the Mana Wastes" (Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, pg 76).
There's that use of the term "warped magics" in relation to the Mana Wastes, as opposed to dead magic.
|
|
Montalve, I've done some more digging and found this reference in the chapter on Geb: "Rogue elementals, barghests, sandkrakens, and will-o’-wisps all occasionally wander across the border, as do the mana-twisted undead personifications of the warped magics found in the Mana Wastes" (Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, pg 76).
There's that use of the term "warped magics" in relation to the Mana Wastes, as opposed to dead magic.
thanks, I was goint to mention it... so the question is how warped, and why magic doesn't work, but clearly aberrant creatures can survive and prosper...
Creative Director
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Magic is magic, whether it's divine or arcane. In a magic dead area, mortal magic doesn't work, no matter where it's coming from. That does include divine magic—sure, it's granted by the gods, but it's wielded and created and manipulated by mortals.
The church of Nethys, in fact, has a subset of its followers who view magic dead areas and other trouble spots like the Mana Wastes as the greatest problem facing the world today; I suspect there's a pretty strong presence of crusading Nethys clerics in the Mana Wastes trying to figure out how to reverse the process or combat it.
But in any event, anything that's supernatural or spell like or spell doesn't work in a magic dead zone. A deity could probably get stuff to work if they came down in person, but Golarion's deities don't normally get that physically involved in the world.
HOWEVER: Creatures created by magic, such as undead and constructs, can still function in magic dead areas. Their supernatural abilities won't work, and they can't cast spells, but they do still function since the magic that created them only created them. It doesn't keep them going or linger on in that sort of way.
|
|
An entreprising archmage might want to study it so that he can replicate its effects while making himself immune. The only magic-wielder (and a high-level one at that) in a wide area.
I guess the Nethys crusaders would not be amused, especially if he used them to get the knowledge about how the Mana Wastes work :P
|
|
HOWEVER: Creatures created by magic, such as undead and constructs, can still function in magic dead areas. Their supernatural abilities won't work, and they can't cast spells, but they do still function since the magic that created them only created them. It doesn't keep them going or linger on in that sort of way.
still this leaves one question... how are there still hauntings attacking certain castle in Alkenstar...
I suppose the answer would be linked both to the hauntings and attacks and those of yetis
|
Contributor
|
I suppose the ghosts and haunts would have to be undead created or warped by the Mana Wastes, themselves...changing their properties in a way that allows them to materialize in a magic-dead zone. Might make for some interesting undead variants.
I also like the idea of a wizard experimenting on a way to duplicate the effects of the Mana Wastes in order to use it as a weapon. The "doomsday spell" concept fits right in with Pathfinder's pulp fantasy motifs. It also sets up the possibility for an array of antagonists. That cult of Nethys could either be an ally or an opponent.