During the fight with the goblin commando, the players knocked out (via Color Spray and liberal application of a foot to head) on the goblins. They handed the goblin (now named Grracht, which my player simulate by clearing their throats with a good deal of phlegm)over the Sheriff Hemlock.
Two days later Hemlock sends them notice that the goblin has regained consciousness (they asked to question the goblin, so Hemlock sent them a note after he questioned the little guy - bribing with him with jerky). The player questioning the little guy goes well (they end up bribing the ravenous goblin with pastries from the Savories, the twins - blond, bubbly, and much too young (21) in the opinion of my incredibly hot elf bard (18 Cha, 21 App) - have a crush on Rana.
I made the little guy from the Birdcrusher goblins, so the players found out that some 'longshanks', somewhere between 3 and 10, got the tribes together -- and that one of them had pointy ears... the goblin also mentioned that one of them had boobies (the only PC that speaks Goblin is a Varisian veil dancer) but my players completely missed that reference.
So when they are done questioning Grracht, Hemlock mentions that if they are done with the goblin that he is going to put the little guy out of the town's misery (he was going to put poison in the food that he feed the little guy, so it would be quick and relatively painless). And to my surprise (my players switch from blood-thirsty bastards to ahh.. he's so cute way too fast) they ask fro a stay of execution for the little goblin.
The apprentice wizard in the group was raised by Madame Mvashti (his parents died when he was really young and he was a distant relative of hers). Additionally, Rana (our elven bard) collects stories so has already made friends with Quint, Gandethus, and Niska (who has taken a shine to the bard who treats her like a young, attractive woman - she's only 94 to his 124...).
So the party heads over to 'grandmas' house. And Jal (wizard) asks Grandma if she can find any use for the goblin. Right now she's over at the jail talking to the goblin.
Here's the question: Should Mdme Mvashti give Grracht a chance to live?
Points to consider:
1) My players are normally cold-hearted bastards and they don't give NPCs benefits of the doubt (not because I use NPC to backstab them they've just been playing since the early '80s) so I kinda want to reward them for trying to take the merciful route.
2) Grracht didn't actually hurt anyone during the attack (didn't get the chance) but he is evil. (note the little e) He even started yelling the goblin song at them when they were questioning him... which made Rana happy because he hadn't had a chance to take down the lyrics during the Festival. sigh...
So what do you guys think? (I've got about a week for thoughts 'cause next games isn't 'til Tuesday).
Thank you all!
EDIT: okay, it didn't get eated - I'll try to delete the other thread.
A search might turn up more information on this question as it has been asked before in regards to RotRLs.
That said the answer invariably comes down to 'its up to you'. There is no cannon that specifies whether Goblins can be reasonably changed to a new alignment.
Essentially the answer revolves around your answers to a number of questions regarding your game.
How often do people change alignments? If its fairly easy and fairly common to change alignment then that makes it more likely that the goblin can change its alighnemnt.
why do creatures usually have their alignment? This is a D&D version of the nature vs. nurture question. Did the creature get its alignment from teachings and its evil circumstance? Or is its alignment in its blood - genetic basically. If you view alignment as being more socially constructed then genetic then its easier to change.
Why do we change our world views? Does a change of personality , beliefs and values come about becuase of the kindness of strangers? Or is it something that needs to come from inside oneself? Fundamentally can I change how someone else acts and behaves through my willingness to act selflessly and show them the correct behaviour - or do they have to desire to become some one different themselves? If we can change others opinions and actions then that means that good modelling can change ones alignment. If its an internal thing than a Goblin that wanted to live a different life (i.e. wanted to change its alignment) would come to standpoint of its own accord driven to try and figure out how to go about becoming a whole new goblin.
Pretty much if you answer these questions for your game you should know whether or or not the people of Sandpoint can make use of a goblin - as more then material components anyway.
You already had Madame Mvashti agree to go talk to the goblin. To me, that indicates that Madame Mvashti, at least, already thinks there is a plausible chance the goblin can be spared. And she is a very wise old woman.
The goblins of Golarion are evil, stupid, and have a short attention span. They forget whatever important task they're in the middle of (even combat) if something distracts them. So basically, they're like young children, perhaps with some sort of attachment disorder (inability to empathize with others), or perhaps just with suitably abusive upbringings that they behave badly once they grow up.
In either case, it is reasonable that an individual goblin could be taught a set of required behaviors. Basic manners, not causing pain to people or animals, doing some chores around the house... In return, the goblin gets to live more comfortably than it ever has before, and good food (often including pickles!).
The problems would be, (1) how do others in the community react, and (2) how likely is the goblin to get bored, or just to forget, and break an important rule somewhere along the way (killing a child for bringing a dog nearby, for example).
Another option is that Madame Mvashti may know a place somewhere off in the wilderness where the goblin, and other members of his tribe, could relocate, away from the dangerous town of Longshanks. Again, a bribe (stored food, including a barrel of pickles) might help persuade the entire tribe to move along. Perhaps they end up moving to some area close to one of the later adventure sites, in which case the "friendly goblin" can help them find their way around the area at that point. Would the wilderness in the vicinity of the site in Pathfinder #5 work? If so, you could even mention the circle of 7 stones as part of your description of the area, if Madame Mvashti tasks the PCs with making sure the goblins relocate...or just let the goblin help them find it when they eventually go there.
It sounds like the alignment change might not even be necessary, if I'm correctly interpreting the emphasis of the small "e" in "evil".
I think you have great potential here for humour. Sandpoint is shorthanded in terms of guards, and maybe Grracht could be probationally added to the watch. After this ends in disaster, perhaps he could look for charity from Father Zantus, who hires him as an alter boy. When this goes horribly wrong, maybe Gorvi (the half-orc) could hire him as a trash collector.
It's hard to do humour properly in an RPG without turning it into farce or something even sillier. You could accomplish it here by having Grracht sincerely take on these tasks and just act according to his nature; you wouldn't ever have to resort to movie parodies or literary quotes.
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Another vote here for "spare the goblin". I lean heavily towards having mortal races being disposed to alignments by their predominant societies rather than being genetically hardwired as good or evil, so I'm biased in that regard. But in the situation described it looks like you're halfway there already.
I'd be interested in seeing how a good-aligned Paizo goblin would work out in civilized society, especially with their craziness kept intact. I'd be VERY interested in seeing what kind of society a bunch of goblins like that would wind up with.
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It sounds like the alignment change might not even be necessary, if I'm correctly interpreting the emphasis of the small "e" in "evil".
I think you have great potential here for humour. Sandpoint is shorthanded in terms of guards, and maybe Grracht could be probationally added to the watch. After this ends in disaster, perhaps he could look for charity from Father Zantus, who hires him as an alter boy. When this goes horribly wrong, maybe Gorvi (the half-orc) could hire him as a trash collector.
Picks up a few Druid Levels with Father Zantus, and then stumbles across a Druid Steampistol in the trash while working for Gorvi...So then you have a Goblin Druid with a steam Pistol.
This is gonna end bad the instant he Panics and holds up the General Store by accident.
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Short answer: Using Paizo goblins as "allies" has been one of the best things about my campaign. Play them as just useful enough not to kill, and too funny to get rid of.
Long answer: What follows isn't a campaign journal. It's intended to be amusing, but also to indicate one way that you might make Paizo goblins part of the party without an Evils campaign.
I run a 1 PC campaign. 'Cause it's a one PC campaign, I wanted to start them on this path later than first level, but prepare the way for it. The one PC is a CG Bard 5/Rogue 1, with two CG NPC companions. They're privateers who hunt pirates, amongst other missions.
And their crew is partially composed of Paizo goblins.
My player, like yours, finds them cute as the dickens. She describes the appeal as the "they're so ugly they're cute" thing. ("Chihuhua syndrome" is her other term for it.)
She found them as part of the crew of a smuggling operation run by a seriously frightening pirate captain outside of my campaign's Saltmarsh. She captured them all after using the bard's fireball against the captain (a.k.a. charm person). After a great deal of maneuvering, she got the captain captured in town, then got the crew arrested by the Town Guard after that.
At the climactic trial she claimed that "Goblins are people too." (You could have knocked me over with a feather.) She said that they weren't responsible for their actions because they had been bullied by the human pirate who commanded them. She then nailed the Diplomacy check, which bards are wont to do.
So the court gave her custody of them. And assigned a LG Cleric to watch both the goblins and her.
How this has worked out:
She is trying to wean them away from being evil little bastards to being neutral little bastards. She's been using candy (saltwater taffy), crunchy foods, and utterly disgusting garbage as rewards like a behavioral scientist. (Figuring out what goblins eat caused her quartermaster to get arrested for being a public nuisance when he took a goblin to a number of different restaurants in town to figure that one out.) And they HATED working during the day, rather than staying nocturnal.
She's actually succeeded in civilizing ONE of them, the alpha male, named Max. He's become the bo'sun and he bullies the others mercilessly as the resident "big-big." That's a term of power, reserved only for the alpha male and the matriarch (the captain). I gave them dual power structures as a society, because I was riffing on the BBEGal's role in Runelords 1 while still holding to the male tribal chief.
Goblins as Crew:
Since they'd been found as the grunt labor of pirates, I ruled that they had been pain-stakingly taught their single rank in Profession: sailor. The PC captain always takes a penalty for her crew's quality, which is usually made up for by bardic music, her navigator's skill, and the ship's excellence.
They get into everything, of course. The PC locks away the really valuable stuff, but she's lost some kegs of brandy to them already. Another goblin sailor was found unconscious with claw marks on him, having lost a battle with the ship's cat.
One goblin sailor, Noorick, found a gold piece in the bilge, which produced a fight between all the goblins, then a sustained search of the bilge by them when the captain ordered them to stop fighting. When Noorick got money for being the first to sight a ship, a rivalry with Max was born. They each watch each other like hawks.
As a result, Max insisted on a display of his big-big status. The PC built a separate room for Max, as all the other "officers" got separate quarters. Max then insisted on a throne, which was... a chair.
(I think my PC lets them divide and conquer themselves rather than impose peace and harmony on them.)
She uses the goblins as red shirts in melee, albeit red shirts that run away when things go badly. She does heal them afterwards, however. She also never, ever leaves them alone on the ship, lest they sail away with it.
Even though sacrificing large numbers of goblins to achieve military goals is a typical tactic for goblin tribes, it would have led to trouble eventually.
And it did.
During one mission, The captain, some of the goblins, and her officers were looting a derelict ship. After a climactic battle, the derelict started to list and sink. Her navigator/wizard-in-training came over from her ship with a launch, rowed by a goblin, to rescue them. (They
lacked the manpower to sail the ship over there in time.) The party, although occupied with a giant octopus grappling several of their number, lowered a chest full of treasure down to the launch. Hoping to escape and let everyone else drown, the goblin on the launch then
pushed the navigator overboard, ruining this wizard-in-training's only spell book.
That goblin got the brig and then exiled.
But she gave the other goblins a taste of the gold that an adventurer brings in. And that never happens in goblin tribes.
Max showed real leadership potential when he stole everyone's dog slicer while they were playing in their piles of coins. The greed-driven melee that night was all nonlethal damage as a result. (They then got fined for fighting.)
Goblins on Shore Leave:
As captain, she's been using strict discipline on ship while giving them utter freedom off the ship. She studiously avoids checking up on the rumors of chaos on their shore leaves. Those shore leaves, man, have been a blast as a DM. I just drop seeds and let them flower off screen.
At a lot of ports, the PC goes to the outlying farms to resupply the foodstuffs, never realizing that her goblins are raiding those same farmer's hen houses. (Perhaps she does, actually. Getting rid of the middle man and buying direct would be the chaotic way to make up for what her crew's doing to those same suppliers.)
In one port, the PC captain caught them all leaving ship en masse. They informed her they were going on a "religious observance" break in the woods. They didn't inform her that the rituals involved tormenting things smaller than goblins. It was a very religious experience for them.
When they returned to Saltmarsh, she found them working as the garbage men under the half-orc in charge of these town duties. During this visit, Max the Bo'sun, insisted on being taken shopping like the other big-bigs, having already scrounged the city dump. (Max's smart, so after a few ports he realized that the only way he'll get the shinies from the shopkeepers is if the Captain chaperoned him.) My player was awfully tired and absently allowed him to get a battering ram. The humans on her crew hit the roof when they found out, particularly the navigator, who kept a cat in her room.
When they visited Freeport, the goblin crew disappeared into the slums of Scurvytown. Weeks later, the PC ran into her crew in a burning building. She was searching for trapped survivors. They were working as firemen for the town's privately-run "fir dept," under Glitch, a goblin arcane caster. (It essentially works as some of the first fire departments did: you pay for the service or they let your building burn.) As firemen, their job was to go into the burning buildings and ... loot them. They were biting the heads off pet birds, scavenging valuables, going through peoples things, etc. Max was a big-big here too, because he owned a battering ram. Max, however, would occasionally save someone if they were small and portable. The look on my player's face when Max toddled off saying "Me go find babies" was worth all the effort.
AFterwards, the goblins celebrated by taking the PC off to a goblin club (read: basement) for warchanter songs. Never fear: wackiness and mayhem from the presence of a long-shanks ensued.
Max also helped the captain on her shore leave on one occasion. She was wondering how far to go with her new man in this port, a brawny blacksmith. Max advised her to dump him, as he'd make her a "little-little." He advised her to find a smaller and more easily bullied man as a mate.
Communications:
The bard learned goblin from a goblin cookbook, so communications are still a work in progress. (The cookbook was captured from an exiled goblin, so it makes sense as an heretical text, although she's not put that together yet.) There are times when I make the PC use Listen checks to "keep up" with their jabbering when they're excited.
The goblins use the goblin term "me" and "not-mes" to refer themself as an individual and the latter term for everyone else. When the PC is good at communicating human values, they use the Common language terms Me and You. They dislike the term "gobbo," recognizing it as a human slur and thus prefer "gobbo-lin."
RogueRouge - Thanks for sharing that. Wonderful stuff! I'll share it with my husband tonight - or maybe I won't, in case I need to borrow bits of it when our Runelords campaign finally gets going...
Thank you - all.
Just so you can understand - I normally play the only non-bloodthirsty character in a party of hardened killers, so them NOT wanting to kill something IS something I want to encourage.
However at the same time, while I believe the common races are born neutral and have an alignment based on the experience when growing up (Yes, I'm a nurture over nature... although I have examples in my own family of the opposite).
I like Grracht trying his best but his goblin nature popping up. Poor little guy is going to have a uphill battle - the people of Sandpoint are anti-goblin at the moment.
Still keep the opinions, advice, stories, and ideas following.
I think one of the best ways to aproach this is to have a goblin immitate what a goblin would think human society is all about. Alot of our habbits taken out of context would be very strange. Just the basics, cooking our food, washing our clothing, how humanoids treat their children, how we treat each other. Imagin trying to explain the moral difference between killing a criminal, VS murdering someone on the street. What about why we eat some animals, but keep others as pets?
I love using goblins and goblinoids in my games. I'm always glad to hear about someone else doing the same.
Remember: they're only USUALLY neutral evil...