Hey all, sorry for the lengthy post...concision has never been a strong point for me. :-)
Anyway, I am interested in hearing about the numbers of players/PCs you folks normally have in your campaigns and how many is too many. Something that has been a bit of a challenge for the DMs in our group is the number of players in each session as well as over the course of the campaign.
Let me explain our situation. Our group has 4 pretty regular attendees, 4 occasional players and a couple 'guest' players that pop in a few times a year. Most people in the group can and/or will DM at some point and each player usually only manages one PC (including the DM who generally runs a low-impact DMPC). The 4 regular folks attend probably 99% of the sessions with the next four having varying levels of availability/commitment. Most nights we have at least 5 but can have as many as 7 or 8.
We are currently playing AoW AP (I'm not DM'ing) and are looking forward to the ST AP (which I will be DM'ing) and a couple of us have been talking about the number of PCs. Our concern is that we may have too many PCs at times during the campaign. This brings a couple of challenges:
1) It’s too easy – most adventures are based around a ‘balanced’ party of 4 (fighter, cleric, rogue, mage). We never manage to have a ‘balanced’ party, but that is another story. The real point is that when there are 7-8 PCs going up against an encounter built for 4, things get pretty easy for them. The additional mix of skills/powers/spells/firepower/melee combat strength makes most pre-written encounters too easy. Now, you can crank up the CR of an encounter (more baddies, tougher DCs to overcome something, etc) but since the number of players we have fluctuates, it’s tough for a DM to prepare in advance and there is the fear that changes on the fly could sometimes produce unpredictable or unwanted results (it becomes too tough or even insurmountable).
2) Combat complexity – it’s not really a linear progression when more players are added to combat in terms of the complexity of resolving combat. Our last big combat saw 5 or 6 concurrent wall spells all with different effects, areas of reverse gravity, disintegrations, mass healings (from both sides and with opposing effects), epic one-on-one melee battles, flying, summoning, ranged weaponry, spells and spell-like effects, areas of effect, etc. Even though a couple of things may have been missed, I applaud our DM for managing that much at once; I know it could not have been easy. I’m sure there are many of you who would say, “All combat is like that” or “Suck it up, princess” but my point is that with so many PCs capable of so many things, it can get complicated in a hurry and you can sometimes find yourself bogged down in the nuances of the rules to resolve some of these situations as well as increasing the chance of missing something really cool for the baddies. Smaller parties are less likely to produce so many such scenarios.
3) Keeping all players interested – it’s challenging enough to DM and produce an environment that is exciting and compelling for 4 players but it’s nigh impossible to do that for 7 or 8. As a DM, I strive to keep all players involved and give each PC at least a little bit of individual attention. It keeps them involved and gives them the assurance that their character is really important to the adventure. Failure at this leads to #4.
4) Distractions – more players means more non-game related conversation. We’re a pretty social bunch to begin with and getting 7 or 8 of us in a room is a recipe for chatter. We have a couple of folks who are worse for spawning such conversations, but at the end of the day we are all guilty of extended out of game chatting. This is not a bad thing, per se, but it can sure drag out an adventure which can then cause people to lose interest in the campaign. Add the challenges of not being able to draw people into the game by giving them all individual attention and things get worse.
So long winded way of saying that having many PCs is challenging. We certainly don't want to exclude anyone, but are just looking for some hints on how to manage things a bit better.
How many PCs do you have and how do you manage some of the above points for larger parties?
Thanks,
Jeff
My sweet spot for number of players is 4 to 5. Anything larger than that gets to be more chaotic and hard to manage. I end up getting frustrated that nothing is getting done. If the playing is secondary then I guess more players is fine. I currently am running three players. It is ok but when one is missing it really shows. Plus I had to make some adjustments for published products like AoW. I have done a large group of eight or so, but really I only like to do it for a one or two shot adventure not a continuous thing. Also I'm not big on players whos attendance is hit or miss. They just don't seem to have the investment that the other players do so they tend to be more prone to have non-game conversations. They are just not as engaged as the others since they have missed so much of the story.
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I understand some of your concerns regarding group size and commitments -- I have been there. Some of my biggest problems have been what to do as far as advancement for the people who are not regular attenders. Do you advance them with everyone else, or do you leave them behind in the dust just to be killed off later because they are so outclassed?
Since that isn't really part of your question...
1) Too Easy -- The best way to improve this is to add more goons. It shouldn't be too difficult to add one more Spawn of Kyuss, etc. At the same time, it shouldn't be too difficult to take one of the creatures away if needed either. The down side of this is that it causes combat to take longer. The other option is to create multiple versions of a creature depending on how many people might show up. This takes a lot more prep time from the DM.
2) Combat Complexity -- I believe that it was Monte that had a number of articles in Dungeon Magazine that talked about ways to help speed up combat around a year ago. I think that mapping things out helps people stay focused. Reminding people to think about what they will be planning on doing when it gets to be their turn helps as well. I have told my group that with larger battles, I will be asking some of them to "control" some of the lesser goons and keep track of hit points, to hits, etc.
3) Interested -- I am going to try and keep things going between sessions by email to help keep people interested. This is really a tough one -- especially when people want to do different things (go shopping, go to the bar, visit a friend, etc.).
4) Distracting -- I have had to take some of the instigators of this aside and ask them to keep it to a minimum and let them know that I would be reminding them as needed. Usually they have understood and been onboard with it. I hate to squash too much of this though since a lot of this talk is what makes getting together fun. There just needs to be a balance.
Ultimately the best advice that I can give is to communicate. Let everyone know what you want to do/try and why. Explain some of the frustrations and see if anyone else has any suggestions to assist with it. I don't think that it is too much to ask that people give you (the DM) at least 4 days warning as to who will be there or not. Especially if they have all been the DM before, they should know how frustrating it is when the DM plans on certain people being there when they don't show up.
Just a few random thoughts.
Good luck with it.
I once ran a game with 11 people in it. My players kept inviting people. Never again. EVER.
For the last several years I have always shot for 4-6. A smaller group of 4 is easier to deal with, and easier to give time to each, and makes for a better dynamic. However, 6 allows for some more classes and bigger encounters.
Sicne 4-6 is good, 7 is too many. Just seems like a lot of trouble, and it is hard to give everyone the time they need.
Our group is currently running with 9 people (two of us alternate campaigns as DM), and that's a serious handful. I'm constantly having to adjust the encounters to account for the larger numbers, and right now there's a serious lack of loot to go around (I don't bother adjusting the amount of loot. Helps keep the party under control, methinks).
While it might be a little bit of a relief to reduce the number of folks, I still like it better than the 'standard' size of 4-5. However, I wouldn't recommend, or want, any more than what I have now.
REINFORCEMENTS
One thing that generally bugs me when playing in other people's games or (worse still) computer RPGs is that enemies seldom seem to have decent backup. Seriously, how many of You had an "oh sh**" moment when the Crazy 88 arrived during Kill Bill part 1? A fight that is on a single front with warriors up front and casters at the rear will become a lot more dangerous when enemy reinforcements flood in behind the party or if the party is surrounded and cut off from "tactical highground".
BAIT & SWITCH
If the party is so big that they are on a rampage, then use the momentum to trip them up. If they like to charge headlong after retreating "bait" have them run into a room full of proverbial "Storm Troopers". (If Lucas can do a rewrite of a given scene then so can You!)
DIVIDE & CONQUER
Whether a trap dumps or teleports half the party (or even the main heavy-hitter) into a different area or two equal threats force the party to divide into two taskforces, this is a time-honored classic in storytelling. Granted some DMs might not be as good at this as others, but if You can tell an engaging enough story (even in combat) then the players who are "watching" will stay interested. This is particularly true if they have an emotional attachment to the other group or if the success/failure of each group is tied to that of the other. Again, Star Wars has many good examples of this technique.
SEATING ARRANGEMENTS
If You split up the party, then change the seating around so that (if You can't keep their interest) the folks who are not in the active scene can raid the fridge, take smoke/bathroom breaks or hit the computer at the same time. Also, I've found that it helps to have the biggest side-conversation-starter sitting NEXT to me rather than at the opposite end of the table. That way, You don't have the players turning their heads in the wrong direction (i.e. away from YOU). If they are that well-liked and sociable, You might also task them as an assistant DM. If all else fails, it's also easier to kick someone in the shin when they aren't 6 feet away. ;)
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Ive DM'd 12+ player characters w/o problems. Keep in mind that these players are familiar with the rules and were required to bring in the appropriate texts describing their characters in detail. As far as balanced, and i am sure that i speak for most DM's our there, that balance is never an issue; it is so easy to strengthen the enemies resolve, so to speak.
Please note that i am pretty liberal on what i will allow into a campaign-regarding character classes and races. In short, i pretty much allow anything somewhat reasonable. This, i find, keeps the players interested and me up to date on all the classes and race variations out there. In fact, i find it so enjoyable to consistently stump my players with enemies of unknown classes. They get somewhat panicked when in combat with an unknown class or a monster they have never met before. I love to make them sweat. I also make my campaigns tough and dont mind pointing out that if you dont play well, then, you will most likely die-and most often do. Another thing my players have learned is that more isnt necessarily better. More players always seem to equate to difficulties in stealth. I even enjoy giving my players characters choices on what campaign missions to take and some are way above their levels, so its up to them to know when to run and accept another mission more to their skill level. I have even been known to run little mini side adventures with, lets say, an assassin in the group to have him assassinate someone, but i digress.
Thoth-Amon
Honestly I don't have much more to say on this subject than has already been said.
I have currently seven players in my group and agree that it is really tough to keep them all interested.
Solutions? Fights, lots of them. This type of kick down the door and wade into the enemy game keeps all of my players on the same page. When we get to the story telling and out of combat puzzles and traps, half my players either litterally fall asleep, or pull out D&D books and begin planning their next set of skills and feats combos.
just my two coppers - Rath
My SCAP has 7 players, a guard dog, a snake animal companion, next level the Warforged Artificer can build homunculi and the Urban Ranger gets his animal companion.
For those of you not counting thats potentially 10 combatants, I've said it before. I don't have an adventuring party, I have a small army.
Recently our gaming time has decreased to basically about 4-5 hours each fortnight. I'm going to have to really push my braincells into action to keep the party thoroughly challenged and engaged.
Part of what helps me is that the party tends to split up into little sub-groups every so often, while I DM the actions of one half of the party, the other takes the opportunity to chat, eat and take a break from gaming. When the party comes together the players tend to recap what just happened and we keep moving.
I've only really just started doing this 2 sessions ago, and we're still at low levels so who knows how it'll turn out. If things become too difficult to DM I may split my players into 2 groups and start a tangent campaign for one of the groups, only bringing the two forces together for Big Event games.
I'm not sure if any of that was helpful but it should be great for me! :)
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ok, am not quite sure if your thread title is correct. I am guessing that you are running a large group and looking for ways to manage it. i have written a lengthy thread on this topic in another discussion a few months ago about this, but would be glad to give some things that have worked for me when running 11 or 12 people. 8 is about the max I can feel comfortable with at my current game level; I think 6 is about perfect. The question of number for me is directly in proportion to what what kind of players we are talking about and how much time in the game is going be about them; some people are only in the game for power; glory, items; killing things; this is brainless and they take very little maintenance; but some people; the best imho, are in it for the story and the development of plot lines and the complex threads I weave in my game. These guys take a lot of work, fun and enjoyable work, but it takes a lot of time both outside the game and during play. If you have more than 3 or 4 of these type players, then you will be doing a conderable amount of preparation work and notewriting to keep it all straight; I can help here also. I have been doing this for so many years it is second nature by now, but then my world is very, very developed. If I were to create or get a new world and run it; the workload to gm would probably double or more and your pcs would be laying the foundation for development of the areas that they exist in.
So, 8 for my current world; 5 or 6 if I ran a new one, any more would be to many which equates only to takes to much other time.
1) I haven't had the "it was to easy or simple" for neary two decades; this is probably just an experience for the feel of the game thing learned over decades of play.
2) Combat complexity is easily handled and my technique also cuts down on distractions. In large, complex battles, I run the bosses and have my players somewhat run the thugs. This means they roll for the thugs initiative and make sure they do their thing on their initiative, and make rolls for their attacks against the party and hit points. I roll the damage, and decide what the thugs are trying to do. Try giving one of the more talkative or disrupting guys an assistant gm job of keeping track of attack rolls or tracking hps; for instance; I have 7 things with 30 hps each; this guys does the administrative tracking for these thugs; when a player does hps to them; he tracks it, makes sure they go on their init; and rolls attacks for them; not special attacks; just the swing the sword; club; ect. The larger your battle the more players you may need to help. Might sound cumbersome; but you only have a few climatic battles like this a year, and it goes much faster; cleaner; and keeps everyone involved. As a gm; it is very easy to look at the sheet of hits the player is keeping to determine if your monsters need to change tactics.
3) keeping interested; lol, I have the opposite problem; several of my players are too interested and call me all week long at all odd times to talk about their character and plotlines, they are obsessed and I like it that way. If you have problems keeping interest up or people attuned to the game; you may have players that want something else from your game; ie more fighting; less fighting; more puzzles; whatever, you just have to find it. I find that the least interested and therefore, most distracted players dont know or care or have not developed their characters. Everybody like a good joke and the like; dont get me wrong; this is not what I am talking about, I dont know your gm style or how you gm or how you develop a storyline or side plots in your game so i cant really comment; I can tell you some of my techniques if your interested; but they are in another post.
4) distractions; here I am talking about the kind you dont like; side talk about the football game or shopping or whatnot that distracts from the game environment. these only come from people you really dont want in your game anyway, like the significant other of the guy playing, who is there because he is and doesnt really want to play anyhow; or they guy made at some other player who cant keep it out of the game room; or; well, you know them; we all have these from time to time creep into our games. I found that having whatever the players says is what the characters says without giving the OOC hand signal; cuts down upon this tremendously. We have several hand signals in our game for OOC, thieves cant, druid cant, telepathy, etc, we also use whisper paper.