I have a question about the DCs I should set as a GM when my Thaumaturge player uses Exploit Vulnerability. Quoting the source, it says "Select a creature you can see and attempt an Esoteric Lore check against a standard DC for its level"
My question is about the use of the word "Standard". It implies to me that regardless of the rarity of the creature, I should use the default level-based DCs. For example, the party will soon be coming upon Doppelgangers. Doppelgangers are level 3 creatures, which means a Recall Knowledge check against them would normally be 18. However they are an uncommon creature, so the DC is 20.
Would a Thaumaturge's Exploit Weakness check against a Doppelganger be 18 or 20?
Right. It doesn't just imply that rarity is not a factor. It states that outright.
Also, there's nothing in the rules suggesting that rarity would be a factor. The key point here is that Exploit Vulnerability is distinct action. It is not a modification of some action like Recall Knowledge that modifies DC based on rarity.
Thank you both, :)
Also remember that Exploit Vulnerability is Not a recall knoweldge check. So the Thaumaturge couldn't get any recall knowledge specific bonuses, and wouldn't learn additional information beyond what's called out when using Exploit Vulnerability.
Thaumaturges can use their Esoteric Lore to make recall knowledge checks, but then that follows all the rules for recall knowledge, including higher DCs for rare creatures, etc.
Also remember that Exploit Vulnerability is Not a recall knoweldge check. So the Thaumaturge couldn't get any recall knowledge specific bonuses, and wouldn't learn additional information beyond what's called out when using Exploit Vulnerability.
Thaumaturges can use their Esoteric Lore to make recall knowledge checks, but then that follows all the rules for recall knowledge, including higher DCs for rare creatures, etc.
Diverse Lore can add a Recall Knowledge component though, with zero chance of critical failure.
Additionally, when you succeed at your check to Exploit a Vulnerability, compare the result of your Esoteric Lore check to the DC to Recall Knowledge for that creature; if that number would be a success or a critical success, you gain information as if you had succeeded at the Recall Knowledge check.
Also remember that Exploit Vulnerability is Not a recall knoweldge check. So the Thaumaturge couldn't get any recall knowledge specific bonuses, and wouldn't learn additional information beyond what's called out when using Exploit Vulnerability.
correct
Thaumaturges can use their Esoteric Lore to make recall knowledge checks, but then that follows all the rules for recall knowledge, including higher DCs for rare creatures, etc.
For reference for people reading this... for Esteroic lore though it says you can recall knowledge regarding haunts curse and creatures of any type. It doesn't say you can recall specific haunts, curses and creatures. So you would adjust for rarity but get the unspecific lore dc. Doppleganger would still be dc 18. A better example would be the Adult Blue Dragon dc 31. If Esteroic lore said specific creatures, the dc would be 26 as if you took additional lore Adult Blue Dragons. But instead it would be the same DC as if you took an unspecific lore but better than dragons lore. As if you took additional lore blue dragons or additional lore adult dragons, so the dc would be 29.
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I have a question about the DCs I should set as a GM when my Thaumaturge player uses Exploit Vulnerability. Quoting the source, it says "Select a creature you can see and attempt an Esoteric Lore check against a standard DC for its level"
My question is about the use of the word "Standard". It implies to me that regardless of the rarity of the creature, I should use the default level-based DCs. For example, the party will soon be coming upon Doppelgangers. Doppelgangers are level 3 creatures, which means a Recall Knowledge check against them would normally be 18. However they are an uncommon creature, so the DC is 20.
Would a Thaumaturge's Exploit Weakness check against a Doppelganger be 18 or 20?
There's a history behind why the rule is like this.
During the playtest, thaumaturges used Recall Knowledge to turn on all their abilities. It turned out that that made them pretty bad against rare creatures.
Thaumaturges are supposed to be specialists in the weird and obscure, so this was clearly not working as hoped for.
It also caused problems because Recall Knowledge has limits on how often you can use it (it gets harder each time, and once you fail you're blocked). This was bad if a thaumaturge would fight the same kind of creature more than once. Which is not really unusual; adventure paths love to re-use creatures. First time as boss or lieutenant, later on as groups of cheap mooks.
So, in the final version of the class, Exploit Vulnerability is not Recall Knowledge and doesn't have its hangups.
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So, in the final version of the class, Exploit Vulnerability is not Recall Knowledge and doesn't have its hangups.
Which is good but they really need to rework Recall Knowledge as well. At least with better guidance for GMs.
Recall Knowledge has limits on how often you can use it (it gets harder each time, and once you fail you're blocked).
Sorry this is totally irrelevant to this thread, but can you point me to where this is spelled out in the rules? I'm new(ish) to the game I'm playing an Investigator, which means I use Recall Knowledge a lot, and it sounds like I've been doing it wrong =P
Other than that, thanks for the insight into how this was designed and playtested =)
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Page 506, in the GM section:
"Sometimes a character might want to follow up on a check to Recall Knowledge, rolling another check to discover more information. After a success, further uses of Recall Knowledge can yield more information, but you should adjust the difficulty to be higher for each attempt. Once a character has attempted an incredibly hard check or failed a check, further attempts are fruitless—the character has recalled everything they know about the subject."