I'm currently building a character for a gestalt game. He will be a paladin who has fallen and will be seeking redemption once he realizes what he has done and atones for it. Trying to figure out what to do with the other class. He is a melee wielding either a large sword two-handed or sword and board and very much a protector of the innocent. He is not a heavy magic user of any sort. Fighter is pretty easy to get lost behind the paladin side of the character, so it's an option. I was wondering if anyone had a better one.
The druid in the party has gotten stuck in wolf form, and the party doesn't know that the wolf is her. They let the wolf join them because she saved the paladin during a deadly fight he was in. She doesn't understand her ability to shapeshift. This is purely roleplay not mechanic. Before she shifted she was a healer. Her main role during battle will be in wolf form even after she has learned to shift back to human form. She will eventually become some sort of defender of nature, specifically nocturnal nature.
Generally you want to use gestalt to broaden your horizons, so I'd suggest Oracle. Only you don't really want spells. Fighter would be pretty redundant though.
Could you elaborate on your concept I suppose?
The druid could go Barbarian or Ranger (Natural Weapon combat style), or Monk with a focus on tripping.
Since you do not want to go spell why not add Slayer to your Paladin? Super Commando Paladin for the win.
Elaborating on concept.
He was trained all his life to take over the kingdom (heir to the throne). He was tricked by someone else who wanted the kingdom to kill the kingdom's guardian. At this point the rest of the kingdom has ostracized him for killing the guardian and have a price on his head. He refuses to admit that he is wrong and has gone out on his own. They are currently on a side quest with the eventual quest (once he realizes his mistake) being retaking the kingdom.
Sounds more like a Cavalier than a Paladin actually, they have some leader-ish abilities.
That may be because you didn't mention anything about his faith/convictions as a Paladin.
Slayer works even better for the Gestalt then. He is out on the mean streats with no help and has to learn the hard way how to fight the way the outcasts do. He'll need to adapt to the streets, learn how to sneak and make the most if his strikes.
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Paladin actually gestalts pretty well with bloodrager, which has no alignment restrictions. The bloodrager benefits from the high charisma in a way that most other full-BAB classes don't, and with Primalist you can take the Lesser Celestial Totem to add your level to your Lay on Hands ability. The Destined bloodline seems appropriate and is fairly subtle in its magical effects. It offers Lightning Reflexes as a bonus feat, which is nice because that's your only low save as a paladin (if a paladin can ever have truly low saves). Also Leadership.
Slayer's not bad, either, especially if you're looking for some shield bashing action, though you should check with your GM about whether certain abilities would qualify as dishonourable.
How long do you expect it will take the character to redeem himself? Effectively missing half your character is a pretty big penalty - since you're looking at martial classes you don't even have the BAB benefit compared to a fallen Paladin // Oracle.
The druid could go Barbarian or Ranger (Natural Weapon combat style), or Monk with a focus on tripping.
The Natural Weapons style for rangers is pretty poor. Both barbarian and monk are good and appropriate. The unchained monk, if you're allowed to use it, is probably better than core for this purpose because it grants true full BAB and the druid will patch the will save nerf and the poison immunity nerf (assuming the character hasn't traded away Venom Immunity). Feral Combat Training lets the character use the wolf's bite with monk abilities (including scaling damage).
That may be because you didn't mention anything about his faith/convictions as a Paladin.
Faith is really thick in the country he grew up in. His faith is lost at this moment, part of him falling. He feels betrayed by his faith.
He walked away from the throne when it was taken by the person who tricked him. This left the country in evil-oppressive hands. Setting things right is key to his atonement, not something he wants to do.
Slayer may be right, I'll have to read over it again.
What about the druid? Barbarian's rage doesn't feel right to me. Ranger/Druid could fit, but feels a little easy. I do want to help her enhance her fighting as a wolf.
Unsure on Slayer. Some pieces feel off without some re-fluffing of the abilities, esp sneak attack. I could call it opening attack, meaning he hits for extra damage when there is an opening (them becoming flat footed).
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What about the druid? Barbarian's rage doesn't feel right to me. Ranger/Druid could fit, but feels a little easy. I do want to help her enhance her fighting as a wolf.
Monk. Monkmonkmonkmonk.
For offense: spend two feats on Weapon Focus (Bite) and Feral Combat Training and gain the ability to flurry and use stunning fist and improved monk damage with the wolf's bite. Flurry is a really big deal for a druid with one natural attack. Full BAB for purposes of combat maneuvers (eg the wolf's trip). Also, bonus feat list includes Combat Reflexes, which is very useful if she plans on tripping things (please tell me the wolf will be tripping things).
For defense: Wis to AC when wearing no armour (aka when a wolf), good ref save, evasion and improved evasion, and (if core monk) SR and immunity to disease.
Also, increased mobility via fast movement and abundant step. Stat requirements are pretty close to identical to the combat focused druid: Str > Wis > Dex = Con > Int > Cha
Take Quingong monk to trade out abilities she doesn't like (including the duplicate immunity to poison from diamond body).
As pointed out above, the Unchained Monk is also worth considering since it would improve her BAB to full, provide more flexibility with ki powers, and give access to some powers like abundant step early, though you'd want to make sure style strikes will still work with a wolf and some of the defensive abilities are not worth taking any more.
Wolf Style, Wolf Trip, and Wolf Savage might also be fun.
EDIT: If she doesn't like the LN alignment she can take Adopted (Enlightened Warrior) to be NG or TN. Or the GM might waive the alignment restriction if you ask.
Paladin//Rogue sounds like a lot of fun to me.
Adds good skills and Reflex saves. Plus sneak attack and rogue talents.
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It is a surprisingly good combo, especially when you consider you can get Weapon Focus and any one other combat feat from rogue talents. Evasion is also super handy with a good ref save and Divine Grace.
Unsure on Slayer. Some pieces feel off without some re-fluffing of the abilities, esp sneak attack. I could call it opening attack, meaning he hits for extra damage when there is an opening (them becoming flat footed).
Opportunistic attack?
Any other legit ways to wave off the lawful alignment? I think she is true neutral with leaning towards CG.
Not familiar with unchained (never heard about it 'til a few days ago).
I think the paly is leaning more towards ranger than rogue. Still debating slayer.
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The Martial Artist monk archetype has no alignment restriction. Gives you most of the benefits described above but different special defenses. Exploit Weakness is also very handy as a general combat buff.
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Bard would be more than decent for paladan, espically arcane duelist, or maybe celestial bloodrager, that would be fun,
Ninja would be powerful and would make for an interesting RP experience
The Druid could go for a ranger, the shape shifter, skin changer, and/or spelless archeptypes seem espically good for him.
If not that, warpriest would work well
Any other legit ways to wave off the lawful alignment? I think she is true neutral with leaning towards CG.
Not familiar with unchained (never heard about it 'til a few days ago).
I think the paly is leaning more towards ranger than rogue. Still debating slayer.
Go slayer. Look at sneak attack as street fighting he learned when he lost his way.
Right now you have lost your station, your faith, your throne and your Paladinhood. Your out in the REAL world for what may be the first time, being hunted like a criminal and your mind is full of dark thoughts and anger. Your gonna have to deal with the dregs of the world to survive and make your way and you will learn a few things about that world while you do so. Picking up a more ruthless set of combat skills would make sense for where your at. After all your high born education did little to help you when you were duped. Maybe some street smarts and a little common sense training learned from dark side will do you well once your a king.
As well it gives background for later when/if you regain your Paladinhood that you will understand the plight of the people in your kingdom a bit more from the time spent 'on the streets and in the gutter' and realise that the skills you learned will be well used against that evil that has taken your nation. An evil that deserves those skills.
Thanks for all the help so far.
At this point the exiled prince will be a Paladin/Slayer and the wolf will be a Druid/Monk (maybe). We have 2 other players. One is a priestess of Bahamut and the other is entirely open.
The whole party has just met. The priestess at this point wants to kill the paladin for his crime, but has been strictly forbidden to so by someone higher in her religious hierarchy and has been instructed to work with him to stop the current threat. She has some kind of tie to Bahamut beyond just being a priestess like a distant blood relative. She may be a dragon disguised as a human in order to work with the paly.
Eventually she converts the paladin to follow Bahamut, not sure who he used to worship. Her influence is what causes him to realize his mistake and want to atone.
How would you build this character?
Any ideas for the forth character? All we have for him so far is that he is young and arrogant. He will be in some kind of trouble when he meets the party and the paladin wants to save him.
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Kestral's suggestion for the priestess is sound. Oracle//Sorcerer is also worth considering. The Lore and Wind mysteries seem appropriate and the former lets her use Charisma defensively (via sidestep secret). Slightly better skills, but a poor Fort save (which you can partly compensate for by taking Great Fortitude as a bloodline feat). Matter of taste, I think.
For the last guy, what about Alchemist (Mindchemist) // Wizard or Arcanist? Tons of spells, all good saves, an intelligence-boosting cognatogen, bombs, and discoveries to improve bombs or defenses. It's a fantastic combo. Even if the priestess does take sorceress, It'd be pretty easy to select spells such that there's not much overlap.
Bard // Sorcerer is also pretty good, and thematically really feels suitable to a younger character who has somehow gotten in over his head, perhaps due to an innocent mistake or relatively well-intentioned mischief. Character gets lots of spells, skills, support abilities, good charisma synergy, and two good saves. Might be worth grabbing a longspear (or Elven Branched Spear as a half-elf with free proficiency) to sneak in a few attacks of opportunity. Are you familiar with reach clerics?
Another option is to go archery, since the Paladin//Slayer and Druid//Monk(?) are melee-focused, though a little magic still seems like a good idea.
Fighter // Alchemist (Grenadier) gives you full BAB, lots of feats, weapon training, good Fort and Will saves, 4 skills/level (plus a bit for high int), a Dex-boosting mutagen, and the ability to enhance arrows using alchemical items via the Grenadier abilities and the Explosive Missile discovery. Some bombs can be really useful for battlefield control, and the alchemists' extracts can be used for utility and buffs. Archer archetype optional.
Fighter // Bard gives you the full BAB and feats, but also all good saves, 6 skills/level, and a selection of support and utility abilities. The Archer archetype is a strong choice here because unlike the alchemist the bard has problems in heavy armour, so armour training is not very useful.
Read this as: be Batman.
ROFL I never intended that but on a reread I can see it. :-)
Oracle/Sorcerer is kinda what I was looking at. I think she needs some kind of breath weapon to play up her dragon heritage.
The last character is throwing us through a loop as he is without a real concept. We like our characters to be interconnected, the more the better. All the characters are super serious at this moment, so someone to ease tension could be ideal. Also the druid want to find him obnoxious.
Using Unchained Monk as the druid's 2nd class. What suggested Ki powers should she get. Game is starting at 6th level and she should be able to regain human form between 8 and 10 or so.
I think that the 4th character is going to be a dagger wielding thief type character. Unchained rogue/??? looking at slayer, fighter, ranger, and open to suggestion.
What do you guys think of animal companions for this group? The druid could have an animal companion, but it feels a little strange since she is in wolf form all the time. What non wolf animals would make sense? If the 4th character goes ranger or hunter what animal should he chose?
It would be weird? Not sure how to explain it. I guess it would feel likeit would detract for the druid's uniqueness. Although she could gain the companion on the road...
arrogant... theres is nothing better than a cavalier of the cockatrice. or maybe a barbarian that is so hotheaded he rages? a cavalier of the cocky and rogue is very nice tough, and can play the archer well. even use guns if you use the right cav arch.
There is a knife-fighting rogue archetype that gets 1d8 sneak attacks when fighting with daggers.
1d8?
Rogue/Ranger?
What feats would you suggest?
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The archetype he mentioned is the knife master.
The TWF feat line is pretty solid for rogues, especially a gestalt rogue with full BAB (which solves the usual TWF rogue's accuracy problem).
Rogue//Ranger is not bad, but I don't know if it's the best option. Some of the ranger's advantages - high skill points, good ref save, evasion - are redundant with those of the rogue. The combat styles are also not particularly exciting. TWF is the best style for the rogue, and the big advantage of the ranger is that you can do that without the dex investment... but the Unchained Rogue has a finesse ability that makes a dex build more attractive. I'd almost suggest taking the Archery style for some switch hitting (You can use many of those feats with thrown daggers, though you'll need Quickdraw to use Rapid Shot). If he does go ranger, I would consider the Guide archetype, which replaces the redundant evasion abilities.
Rogue//Cavalier with Order of the Cockatrice is a pretty thematic combo as the xiao pointed out. The Daring Champion archetype is worth considering. Finesse is partly redundant and Precise Strike doesn't work with TWF, but it makes a good backup when you can only make one attack, and overall the benefits of the archetype are solid for a knife fighter - dodge bonus to AC, swashbuckler deeds, plus Challenge, banner, your order abilities, tactician, and a few bonus combat feats.
Rogue//Urban Invulnerable Barbarian can boost Dex during rage and trades out the redundant Uncanny Dodge for excellent DR (on top of more HP than the other combos). Rage powers are a lot of fun, and some like surprise accuracy or reckless abandon can boost your accuracy when you really want to deal a debilitating injury.