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877 posts. Alias of Peter Heleva.


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Hmm wrote:

First off, kudos for an original idea. I have a question though... Is this for PFS? If so, you'll probably get stuck with the -5, since the GMs there have to stick to rules as written for consistency.

If it is for a private game, run it past your GM. My GM would laugh, enjoy your originality, and let you get away with it. Other GMs might be more frosty. But you won't know until you try.

I do want to see you riding your ape. What is his name?


The Gnome is a she named Bixby. The ape's name is Joseph Young.

cheechako wrote:

If you attempt to ride a creature that is ill suited as a mount, you take a –5 penalty on your Ride checks.

If you are riding bareback, you take a –5 penalty on Ride checks.

So, you are at -10 if the GM decides that your mount is ill-suited. (This is totally up to the GM. There are no rules for this.) Add an exotic saddle, and that brings it back to -5 for ill-suited. Add an exotic military saddle, and you will be down to -3.

The fact that it is a companion instead of just an animal has no impact on this. You'll be able to train tricks and whatnot which will make it better than the untrained (normal) animal, but as far as I know, that doesn't change the inherent restrictions on what the animal can or cannot do.

Right, but is there a list of suited and ill suited mounts, or is the RAI referring to the size difference between the mount and rider? Like, it would make sense for a Medium creature to have the penalty riding a medium wolf or some such, and less sense for the small gnome riding an ape.


Ellias Aubec wrote:
Any ranged attacks. However note those penalties only apply if your mount does a double move - a single move will not give you any penalties to attack at all.

How about that! Good deal.

The extra +2 on the ride check is for the exotic military saddle I bought the Ape, which is leather and woven into his leather barding. Also, the gnome has leather armor.

I figure the "ill-suited" penalty for ride mentioned in the CRB relates to size. Also, I believe an Ape would technically be considered a quadraped. You don't often see them running on two legs.

I want to make the most use of Joe's climb in combat. Recommendations for spells?

EDIT: spell check turned barding into barfing.

Gnome Druid 1

Str 10
Dex 14
Con 15
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 12

Fort 4
Reflex 2
Will 5 (6)

AC 15
Touch AC 13

HP 11

Traits: Animal Friendship, Born Rider

Feat: Mounted Combat


Handle Animal 5/7 (AC)
Knowledge Nature 4
Perception 7
Ride 7/9 (Stay Mounted)

Sling +2/ +3 (Magic Stone)

Mighty Joe

Str 13
Dex 17
Con 10
Int 2
Wis 10
Cha 7

Bite +2, 2 Claws +2 (d4+1)

AC 16
Touch AC 14
HP 12

Feat: Toughness


Acrobatics +7
Climb +15

Do the penalties for ranged attacks on a mount apply to a sling or just bows?

Starglim wrote:

No. A creature that's not an appropriate mount for you can only benefit from an exotic saddle and if it doesn't have one, you take a further -5 for riding bareback.

A military saddle has its listed effects and is probably better suited than a standard saddle for unusual forms of movement. Whether it needs to be exotic depends on the mount.

Thanks for the input. I realize now that what I actually meant was "ill-suited" mount.

Basically I want my Gnome Druid to ride around on the shoulders of his Ape AC. Considering that it's an AC, can that cancel out the poorly defined ill-suited condition?



My small Gnome druid want's to ride on the shoulder of his Ape mount.

The rules say:

"If you attempt to ride a creature that is ill suited as a mount, you take a -5 penalty on your Ride checks."

This would appear to be open to interpretation, but I think even the most lenient GM's would rule that this applies to Apes.

But if I've raised the Ape from birth and he's completely used to me riding on his shoulders, and he's my Animal Companion, and I bought an exotic military saddle especially for him, shouldn't this negate the -5 "ill-suited" penalty?

Here's what I've put into Riding this guy:

One point in Ride plus +2 Dex.

Born Rider trait.

Exotic Military saddle - cancels out the "bareback" penalty and provides a +2 to "Ride checks related to staying in the saddle", which is another broad term.

So I'm seeing a +7 or possibly +9 to ride checks, which makes Mounted Combat totally worth it. But not if I still have that -5 cloud hanging over me.

Does having an exotic military saddle cancel out the penalty for Ride checks for having an "inappropriate" mount?

Imbicatus wrote:
This thread may be useful for you.

It led me to the answer of most of my questions. Now I'm trying to find a way to get around the -5 Ride penalty for bareback and the -5 for "inappropriate mount", so that Mounted Combat might be useful.



EDIT: Found FAQ clarification on the followup.

Anyone ever play an Ape-rider?

Can a small Druid ride his Ape as a mount without any extra feats?

Followup: as this is my first druid, I need a little clarification on how the tricks work. Is it assumed that a first level druid begins having filled all the available trick slots on his animal companion plus the bonus as laid out on the chart?


I'm rolling up my first Druid character. I'd like this to be a gnome that rides around on an Ape's shoulders.

I'm a little confused about the rules regarding the tricks an animal companion can do. For example, how many are you allowed to start out with? All six that the companion can take, plus the bonus trick? Or do you get the bonus trick and then need to spend in-game time training the animal to do other things (which is less than ideal for PFS)?

Can an Ape serve as a mount? I'm not sure whether to call it a biped or quadraped.

A Wild Child archetype from the ACG will give you an animal companion with a full BAB.

No juice for an archer though. This is possibly the most melee-dedicated class I've seen. In fact, the critter eats up four of your bonus combat feats.

Not that you could have used them on non-melee...

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Here's what I'd like:

My gnome Summoner is sitting in a field, petting his rabbit (tiny). Bigger, possibly Bugbear-type thugs come to harass her.

Suddenly the rabbit leaps out of her lap and bites their heads off.

Afterwards the rabbit grows to Medium size, the gnome climbs on its back and the pair hop off into the sunset.

How close to that do you think I can get within the rules?

Is there a way for an Eidolon to have an adjustable size beyond simply casting Reduce Person before, Enlarge Person after? Like, can the Rabbit's normal size be Medium

Is there a way to grant an Eidolon's bite the Agile quality? Or to add Dex to Natural Attacks some other way?

Is there a way to make Natural Attacks Vorpal?

Angry Wiggles wrote:

Mad Dog Barbarian (animal archive) is viable, it's full BAB and gets an animal companion.

You could also play a Sacred Huntsmaster Inquisitor (Advanced Class Guide) or take the Chivalry Inquisition (Magical Marketplace) on an inquisitor or cleric to have a full progression animal companion along with a class that typically supports archery mixed with casting fairly well.

And unfortunately, Mad Dog and Urban Barbarian don't stack because they both change Rage.

You might let a DM allow you to mix them both, since Urban B changes the way you rage, and Mad Dog simply pushes Rage off til level 4. But this is suboptimal if you're interested in the dex bonuses at first level.

Jeff W wrote:

Occultist and School Savant are the optimizer's choices imo.

For school savant, I think diviner schools are less useful than they are for a wizard because the bonus spell being divination hurts way more for Arcanists. Spellwise, Earth is great but you won't be able to fly until 12th level w/ Phantom Steed.

One of the things I liked about the Arcanist was the lifting of Opposition School restriction, so School Savant strikes me as suboptimal. Unless maybe you go for the transmuter's ability score boost. And you can have that at full power for an exploit and a swift action.

Can one Slide as a five-foot step?

For example, could one use Dimensional Slide and Quick Study in the same round?

It's a spell. In the ACG.

Apocryphile wrote:

I made a 5th level Arcanist for Tears of Bitter Manor

I used the Occultist Archetype for a Summon Monster III Standard action SLA at level 5 (which is nice, cos I only have 2nd level spells).

The School understanding (Admixture) and See Magic exploits give me combat versatility and investigatorial abilities.

I've invested in an intelligence headband, and a page of spell knowledge and ring of spell knowledge to boost my prepared spells (I can prepare 6 first level spells.

Feats are extra reservoir, Spell Focus (Divination) and Arithmancy, which doesn't slow down the game at all because I've already worked out all the DCs for it.

Spell mix is mostly combat to be honest. The character is working really well so far.

I think you can do just about anything with an Arcanist. What spells are you thinking of?

I only picked the book up last night. Still sifting through the new spells.

I'm loving Sonic Form. Makes me want to try and build a character around this this guy as a concept.

Zwordsman wrote:

Im trying to figure out a cha skills build.

When u heard he blade archetype I was hoping I could use that and slas, and just burn my spells for arcane points.

Its doable but honestly just doesnt seem to be very effective, not thay I thought it would be effective, but might be fun

I don't get the Blade Adept, honestly. Why not just play a Magus?

Necromancer wrote:
The Force Strike exploit duplicates a single-but-powerful shot of magic missile for a point. Slide might be useful, but I'd grab Force Strike first to better round out your combat options.

Sure, Force Strike is a good example.

I think they should go for it. Let the Eidolon player pick his/her own feats. Also, give the Eidolon his own initiative, which is usually handwaved away.

If you decide to go the "Eidolon is alive while master sleeps" route, then make them earn it. Have it be granted as an item at the end of their first adventure.

How are you guys building your Arcanists?

What I focused on right away was the fact that some of the best exploits don't seem to require Charisma. For example, Dimensional Slide, Familiar, Quick Study.

Spell Resistance seems to be the most important Cha-based exploit from my first perusal.

So right away my brain is working on making this guy a super-intelligent Controller, ala Mr. Treantmonk. I'm more interested in battlefield control than I am in dealing out HP (and a lot of those abilities require an attack roll anyway).

Am I approaching this the wrong way? Is this maybe not the right class for a controller, given the emphasis on damage powers and Sorcerer Spell progression?

Played with this build (Mouser only) last night. It was a really RP/Social heavy mod. I didn't expect the melee character to do too well; for example, the first (and only) combat encounter didn't start til the last ten minutes of scheduled playtime. But I think she did pretty well in the social encounters. Bluff, Intimidate, and Oratory Perform do well to make up for a lack of diplomacy in a pinch, if you have a decent CHA.

One of the benefits of shrinking as a move action (accelerated drinker) is the boost to Dex skills without nerfing your speed. Helps you Acrobat through a glass window and tumble through people's spaces.

SunsetPsychosis wrote:
Inspired Blade and Mouser don't stack, as they both replace the Bleeding Wound deed.

(Sigh). Right you are. Okay, so the main difference is -1 to Rapier attacks and two fewer Panache Points.

As I look through the ACG, four levels of Sleuth will give me:

A boatload of skill points, and stealth and disable device and diplomacy and all the knowledges.

A grit/luck/panache pool of 8 points, unless I'm very wrong about them stacking. And I don't think that I am.

Half of an improved initiative (should stack with the nimble bonus that the swashbuckler level could eventually give me).


Four Inspiration points. Good for a bonus to skill checks but more importantly, +d6 to a saving throw or attack roll twice per day. Which as I read it comes after seeing what the result is (probably won't work on a natural 1).

The ability to use one of those points to avoid being flatfooted (!).

+2 to melee rolls against a target as a swift action (for the cost of one Extra Investigator talent feat). Which I can do while I'm occupying a big bad's square.

Sneak attack damage rolls if I hit against said target.

For +3 BAB and +4 Will, I think that's pretty good. I might even consider taking exclusively fighter levels from then on to free up a few feats for extra inspiration or extra investigator talents.

Can one "attack" defensively when the action being taken is not, strictly speaking, an attack? For example, a disarm or feint?

The main reason is that the Spellcasting will already be 2 levels behind, which is terrible. Still doing 1st level extracts at level 5? No thanks.

Also, this is a melee-focused build (I'm not even going to sink any feats into it). I'd want to hang around with Sleuth for at least 4 levels, to pick up inspired alertness (with so much invested in Dex, not being caught flatfooted will be handy) and studied strike. If I hop back to Swashbuckler after, I've only lost 1 BAB.

So now my thinking has shifted completely around. I'm approaching more as

Inspired Mouser 1/Mysterious Stranger 1/Sleuth X

with the original stats. Also, doing away with all of the ranged feats, except maybe Deadly Aim. If precise shot is required, she'd rather ditch the gun and just hop in the fray. And guns target Touch AC, and eventually she'll be able to make a studied strike with her Rapier.

I'm hanging on to the gunslinger level for the proficiency, free gun, boost to grit/panache/luck pool, and Fort save. Not to mention BAB and HP. Also, a deed that boosts damage for the gun - by third level there'll be 8 points to spend.


Str 12
Dex 16
Con 13
Int 14
Cha 14
Wis 10


1 Dodge, Mobility
3 Quick Draw
5 Battle Cry

Can't see past level 5. Might want extra talents or something by then. Or Canny Tumble.

This build has become less of a damage dealer and more of a battlefield manipulator. For level one, she'll have a tactic of attacking defensively, running circles around a bad guy hoping he'll take an opportunity attack. If he swings and misses she hops in his square to provide the flanking bonus and debuff. At level two she can shoot the bad guy (defensively) and then drop her gun to run circles around him. At level three she can shoot the bad guy in the face, dodge his attack, and then draw her weapon as a free action once she's in his square.

Okay, so that build would be more like:


Str 07
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 12
Cha 14
Wis 12

Accelerated Drinker
Indomitable Faith

1 Point Blank Shot, Fencing Grace. (Bonus Feats: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus Rapier).
2 Gunslinger Level (Mysterious Stranger). +2 to Grit/Panache Pool, Will Save bonus, Proficiency with firearms, battered Musket.
3 (Charmed Life). Quick Draw
4 (+1 ?, Nimble +1)
5 Dodge. Bonus Feat: Mobility
6 (Rapier Training)
7 Battle Cry (Charmed Life)
8 (Nimble +2, +1 Dex)
9 Deadly Aim. Bonus Feat: Canny Tumble

Level 01

HP 13

Rapier +6/d6+4
Longbow nope
Heavy Xbow +6/d10+1

AC 17 (Studded Leather)

Fort 2
Reflex 7
Will 2


AC: 19

Rapier +8/d4+4
Longbow still nope
Heavy Xbow +8/d8+1

I'm wondering if a switch hitter really needs Precise Shot. If there's melee, I should be hopping in there.

Do I really need a 14 INT without the investigator level?

Level 02

Rapier +7/d6+4
Musket +7/d12+1

Deadmanwalking wrote:
You should definitely leave room for the Fencing Grace Feat. It's not available in PFS yet, but Dex-to-damage in melee is great on this build, and only a Feat away once it is available in October. I'd swap out Mobility for it, personally.

Wow. With that I would absolutely swap Strength for Wisdom.

So, a halfling with a 20 dex can have a +6/d4+5 melee weapon at first level? Crazy.

Level 1:

Initiative +3
HP 12

Rapier: +5, d6+1
Longbow(30'): +5, d8+1
Heavy Xbow (30'): +5, d10+1

Fort +1
Reflex +5
Will +1

50gp will get me a Reduce Person potion if there's no willing caster to buff me to get under a Medium bad guy and provide a flanking buddy/debuff vs. notme.

Level 2:

Rapier: +6, d6+1
Musket (30') +6 vs touch AC, d12+1 (Focused Aim: d12+3)

Fort +3
Reflex +7
Will +1

Level 3:

Rapier +7, d6+1
Musket: +7 touch AC, d12+1/+3

Fort +3
Reflex +8
Will +1 (yikes!)

Add +2 to a save 2/day

Level 4:

+2 inish, draw Rapier for free
+1 Dodge (nimble)

Rapier: +8, d6+1
Musket: +8, d12+1/+3

Fort +5
Reflex +8
Will +2

After hitting a big bad with the rapier, can try for a steal CM as a swift action, no AoO.

By level 5, I should have about ten grand. That's +1 for each weapon and a belt of dex +2, with enough left over for a ring of deflection. However, given that the character's will save is only a +2 at level 5, the ring will have to be replaced by a cloak of Resistance +1 and a +1 for the chain shirt.

Level 5:

Initiative +5
HP 49

AC: 21
Touch AC: 16
FF AC: 15
+4 vs movement Opportunity Attacks

Dex (4) + Dodge (2) + Chain Shirt+1 (5)

Rapier: +10, d6+2
Musket: +10, d12+2/ Focused Aim d12+4

Fort +6
Reflex +10
Will +3


AC 23
Touch AC 18
FF AC 16

Rapier +12, d4+1
Musket: +12, d10+2/d10+4

Fort +6
Reflex +11
Will +3

Level 6

Let's hope that we can afford that ring by now, as well as an aegis or recovery.


AC 22
Touch 17
FF 16

Rapier: +12/+7, d6+4
Double Musket: +11/+6 vs touch AC, d12+2/d12+5

Fort +6
Reflex +11
Will +4

Littled: Rapier +14/+9, d4+3
Double Musket: +13+/+8 vs touch AC, d10+2/d10+5

At this point, we're saving up to add the Agile Quality to the rapier, at which point we can more or less save the musket for when it's really needed. Bad guys across a canyon, or feet stuck in liquid stone or some such. Or rapier fell off a cliff.

I don't play melee characters in PFS too often; does this look pretty good?

Okay, how about a Mysterious Stranger for level 2? Gets me the weapon proficiency (and a free gun), trade Fort save for Will, and inspiration for BAB. Two fewer skills and I lose a boatload of trained skills, but I retain the basic concept.

Requires me to swap Survivalist trait for Indomitable Faith. Luckily I have a Charmed life.

If I cough up the Battle Cry for Quick Draw, it looks more like:

1 Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot. (Bonus Feats: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus Rapier).
2 Gunslinger Level (Mysterious Stranger). +2 to Grit/Panache Pool, Will Save bonus, Proficiency with firearms, battered Musket.
3 (Charmed Life). Quick Draw
4 (+1 Con, Nimble +1)
5 Dodge. Bonus Feat: Mobility
6 (Rapier Training)
7 Battle Cry (Charmed Life)
8 (Nimble +2, +1 Dex)
9 Deadly Aim Bonus Feat: Canny Tumble

Also, she can't do two immediate actions on the same turn. So either she's dodging or she's mousing. However, I think it's possible for her to fire a shot defensively, then step into threat range and drink a potion. If the attack misses, she should be able to drink the potion and then spend her immediate action to slide under his legs. And then draw a weapon as a free action. If the DM doesn't allow it, she can drink the potion, then fire the smaller weapon and try the same thing without the dodging panache bonus (but with an equivalent small sized, dex-boosted bonus).

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Steel Hound is not allowed in PFS play.

For real? What a bummer.

I'm trying to put together a Dex-based switch hitter using the goodies from the ACG. Not sure how well I did.

Clever Clevermouse

Clever Swashbuckler build:

Clever Clevermouse
Human Investigator 1 (Steel Hound/Sleuth)/ Swashbuckler X (Inspired Blade/ Mouser)

Str 12
Dex 16
Con 13
Int 14
Cha 14
Wis 10

Traits: Accelerated Drinker, Survivalist

Feats (Features):

1 Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot. (Bonus Feats: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus Rapier).
2 Investigator Level. Gain Inspiration (3 points), Skills, +2 to Luck/Panache Pool, Will Save bonus, Proficiency with Musket/Double Musket
3 (Charmed Life). Dodge
4 (+1 Con, Nimble +1)
5 Battle Cry. Bonus Feat: Mobility
6 (Rapier Training)
7 Deadly Aim (Charmed Life)
8 (Nimble +2, +1 Dex)
9 Dazzling Display? Bonus Feat: Canny Tumble?

This would be intended for PFS and is intended to act as a swiss army knife to fill different roles based on what other folks have brought to the table. So, for example, if the party is mostly melee muscle, our girl can stand back and take pot shots with her longbow (musket or double musket after level 1) while the big boys mess him up.

Seems to me like there's a lot of wiggle room for action economy.

Level One - let's say our girl starts her turn ten feet away from the bad guy (and I'll make it my business to make this happens). She drinks her Reduce Person potion as a move action, then five foots forward and takes a shot with her 'lil longbow - defensively - at a bonus of +2 to hit and a mere d6+1 damage (unless there's a bard or some other buffs). This ought to trigger an opportunity attack. This triggers a Dodging Panache deed, which bangs her effective AC up to 22 in studded leather or 23 in a chain shirt. If that attack misses, our heroine can now slide under his legs and has the option of either going throw with the (short) longbow attack or draw her Rapier for a potential opportunity attack.

Now everybody who wants a flanking bonus only has to be adjacent to me (and therefore the bad guy). Hi rogues! (Did ACG make them an endangered species?) Hi ninjas and slayers! Bad guy meanwhile suffers a

At level 2, this can be done with a musket. Small size is a mere d10 versus touch AC . If the bad guy is Large - which will happen more often as she levels - she can forego Reduce Person; at the end of that sequence she can fire for d12+1 and draw her Rapier as a move action. Guy's already taken his Opportunity Attack. I've been trying to find a place to squeeze Quick Draw in without sacrificing too much too early.

Any suggestions? The goal is to create an effective switch hitter with a gun. The melee part of this build is more focused on "anvil" than on "hammer".



The Compy only gets one feat, and that's Improved Initiative.

If one were to swap out a Compy familiar's Improved Init for something else, does Master still get the +4 bonus for inish?

My inner munchkin is dying to know.

While a Familiar's HP and BAB are locked to the caster's HD, a Familiar gets its own HD and therefore feats, right? Every other level?

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

No, I'm pretty certain he is talking about sacrificing his regular familiar once he has replaced it with his improved familiar.

As to the evil of the act...
A voluntary sacrifice, which is to say, if the sacrifice itself volunteered, would not particularly be considered evil. Involuntary...

That leads us into an interesting debate, wherein the former familiar, once a non-sentient animal, has gained sentience and shares the master's religious beliefs. Even has enthusiasm, since, as an actual reptile, the familiar is closer to "God" than the master him/herself.

Knowing that it will be replaced, the familiar might be perfectly willing to be sacrificed rather than end up a "Charly Gordon" dumb animal again.

However, once it loses familiar status, it goes back to being an animal, right? So now it loses recognition of higher divine authorities and of the very concept of prior consent. Is it still okay to sacrifice it, even though the familiar knew this was coming and agreed (or even had the idea to be sacrificed) ahead of time?

Hang on, we're talking about the ex-familiar, which was not an intelligent being to start with. I meant the "normal" unimproved familiar you need to dismiss to get the improved one.

thegreenteagamer wrote:

I don't think whether or not you ate the creature is relevant to how evil the act was.

How did you kill it? Was it a merciful, quick death? Or drawn out and torturous?

Course not. I'm thinking let the critter have its fill of wine/grog, fill up on its favorite food, then a sleep spell and snicker snack - off with its head.

Well, it's a sacrifice. So, not like on a whim or anything. Rather than letting the critter just run around in the wild - and probably get killed - sacrifice seems like a fitting end if the caster worships Bokrug.

Bokrug is a CN Great Old One Lizard God. Worshipped by lizardfolk, among others, who are True Neutral, I believe. Not an evil deity but worshippers do commit sacrifices to him (it?), which are sometimes sentient creatures (which I would call an evil act).

If the ex-familiar were a lizard, would this improve things? What if the ex-familiar didn't so much mind?

If the sacrifice happened and the eating didn't, would this improve things?

Let's say you gain a new familiar via the feat.

Let's say that instead of dismissing the old familiar, you keep it and sacrifice it to your diety, Bokrug.

And maybe eat it after. And maybe share some with the new familiar.

Is that an evil act?

Duriel_Jones wrote:

The trait is called clever wordplay. It allows you to use your intelligence modifier instead of your Charisma on any one charisma based skill. So if you really want you could use it for UMD if you want to max it out. Oh, regarding the familiar and UMD: it uses your skill ranks not your skill modifier so any traits, buffs, or abilities you have regarding the skill will not be shared by your familiar.

I also initially shared your dislike for cackle due to it keeping you locked in one place. However I realized that if you were mounted you can direct your mount to move as a free action(DC 5 ride check) then take your standard and a move equivalent (aka a hex then cackle).

Fair enough on the familiar. The familiar can take skill focus as a feat, though, no?

Btw, how often does a familiar gain feats? Every other level (HD)?

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