Reflex Save as Initiative


Homebrew and House Rules

Grand Lodge

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Here's a house rule I'm thinking of implementing: Remove initiative as a separate statistic. Instead, combatants start each battle by rolling a Reflex save, which becomes their initiative score. All of the class abilities, feats, and traits that normally add to initiative add to Reflex saves for determining combat order.

The reasons for this are:

1) I'm generally in favor of anything that streamlines or simplifies an RPG system. In many ways, initiative is redundant, being that it's really just a Dex check.

2) Classes with low Reflex saves are usually very powerful already (full casters or hybrid divine/martials). Classes with high Reflex saves are commonly thought of as underpowered (rogues, swashbucklers, monks, etc). So if this system buffs the latter category, it's a net win for balancing the system.

3) Reflex is pretty much agreed to be the weakest saving throw out of all three. Will is the most important because of mind-control nonsense and Fort covers a lot of save-or-die/suck effects. So any system that brings Reflex up to being just as important as the other saves is a good thing.

Any thoughts on this before I get started playtesting it?

TL;DR: I'm going to use Reflex saves instead of initiative, with all the usual modifiers applying normally.


Good idea! I think I'll try that as well.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

You should be prepared for the fact that most of your creatures will get sneak attacked by the party rogue in the first round, because he is most likely to win initiative this way in the long run.

Scarab Sages

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A couple of things to watch out for.

First, things that improve saves but not initiative are contributing more than they normally would. So that Cloak of Resistance +2 is now suddenly boosting your initiative score. Paladins getting charisma to saves? Well one of the balancing parts of paladins is that they typically have terrible initiative, now those Cha 17 paladins will be going near the front generally. Basically, initiative has very few things that add to it other than Improved Initiative (which would you houserule out then?) and the like, but a lot of stuff adds to reflex saves. Not a deal breaker, but something to keep in mind.

Second, initiative does not directly scale with level. I know this is part of the benefit of this, but it has an interesting side effect. When you are fighting a group of creatures that are lower level than the party (i.e. quantity over quality), under the new system their initiative scores will be in relative terms lower. Because they're not getting as much gain as the party members are, in comparative terms. So maybe you need 12 goblins instead of 10 ... I don't think it's a huge balancing factor, but it's one that will under a lot of situations increase the likelihood of having a boring combat in which all the enemies lose initiative to all the party.

Grand Lodge

Zaister wrote:
You should be prepared for the fact that most of your creatures will get sneak attacked by the party rogue in the first round, because he is most likely to win initiative this way in the long run.

Yes, that's one of the things I'm counting on, since rogues are near the bottom of the barrel in terms of class balance anyway. If this system gives rogues a bit of a boost, I count that as a positive side effect.

Grand Lodge

Duiker wrote:
First, things that improve saves but not initiative are contributing more than they normally would. So that Cloak of Resistance +2 is now suddenly boosting your initiative score.

Good point, but I still don't think it's a deal-breaker. Honestly, I was thinking of ditching the "big-six" as well, so this issue evaporates. I've seen house rules that halve the cost of cloaks of resistance, but makes their bonus only apply to one saving throw. Under that system, the Reflex cloak goes from being totally useless to on-par with Fort and Will cloaks.

Duiker wrote:
Paladins getting charisma to saves? Well one of the balancing parts of paladins is that they typically have terrible initiative, now those Cha 17 paladins will be going near the front generally.

Yes, paladins will gain some benefit, but not a lot. A paladin with 17 Charisma is still going to lose out to a rogue with a 17 Dexterity.

Duiker wrote:
Basically, initiative has very few things that add to it other than Improved Initiative (which would you houserule out then?) and the like, but a lot of stuff adds to reflex saves. Not a deal breaker, but something to keep in mind.

All the normal stuff that applies to initiative would still apply to Reflex saves made to establish turn order. So Improved Initiative would simply change to read, "You gain a +4 bonus on Reflex saving throws to establish turn order."

Duiker wrote:
Second, initiative does not directly scale with level.

It doesn't matter, because I'm just switching everyone (players and monsters) from a system that doesn't scale with levels to one that does, so it stays balanced across the PC/NPC line.

Duiker wrote:
I know this is part of the benefit of this, but it has an interesting side effect. When you are fighting a group of creatures that are lower level than the party (i.e. quantity over quality), under the new system their initiative scores will be in relative terms lower.

On the contrary, some monsters have really awesome Reflex saving throws. Even at low levels, goblins and skeletons are both around +2, which isn't bad at all, but they both have Improved Initiative as well.

Thanks for the great feedback! I'll keep it all in mind as I go about playtesting this new system.


I like the idea in general. A few more things to consider:

Any dexterity based build with strong reflex save will profit, not just rogues - e.g. ranger archers. Further, it encourages dipping several high reflex classes, for each +2 initiative.

There are a few feats, traits etc. improving initiative but also other things, e.g. Warrior Priest or Cold Celerity. Do you want to keep the initiative bonuses as situational reflex bonuses (for initiative only)? Or do you remove them?

Grand Lodge

SheepishEidolon wrote:
Any dexterity based build with strong reflex save will profit, not just rogues - e.g. ranger archers. Further, it encourages dipping several high reflex classes, for each +2 initiative.

Not a problem. Once again, classes with good Reflex saves are often thought of as weaker than classes without (full casters and divine/martial hybrids).

SheepishEidolon wrote:
There are a few feats, traits etc. improving initiative but also other things, e.g. Warrior Priest or Cold Celerity. Do you want to keep the initiative bonuses as situational reflex bonuses (for initiative only)? Or do you remove them?

Yes, any class ability, feat, trait, or magic item that normally boosts initiative would instead be a situational bonus to Reflex saves made to determine turn order in combat.

Liberty's Edge

Dotting


Just wanted to point out some side effects that this would have:

  • Casters who have high initiative regardless will now suddenly gain a high reflex save as well. Wizards, in particular, can grab a +8 REF with Improved Initiative and a familiar, both of which are very desirable for a full caster. Ditto with familiar arcanists and sorcerers.
  • An Oracle's Sidestep Secret and Prophetic Armor revelations now give CHA to initiative for free, making them no longer need to take Noble Scion (and Oracles can do a ton more with feats than most other classes).
  • Walking while under cover from a shield or other effect gives you bonuses to initiative.
  • Without fractional saves, classes with strong REF saves are nonetheless going to multiclass to get that extra boost to initiative, which means it's less desirable to stick with pure rogue or monk.
  • Reactionary is now a true god trait.


I assume that feats that bonus reflex saves like lightning reflexes will be denoted as "just for saving throws" or would you allow this bonus to add to initiative?


SheepishEidolon wrote:
Further, it encourages dipping several high reflex classes, for each +2 initiative.

Theoretically, that shouldn't exist: the +2 is a start for having that save as a good save, so the answer is you don't keep getting +2's for taking a single level in a class that grants a good save that you already have, but instead just gives another +1/2.


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Felyndiira wrote:

Just wanted to point out some side effects that this would have:

  • Casters who have high initiative regardless will now suddenly gain a high reflex save as well. Wizards, in particular, can grab a +8 REF with Improved Initiative and a familiar, both of which are very desirable for a full caster. Ditto with familiar arcanists and sorcerers.
  • An Oracle's Sidestep Secret and Prophetic Armor revelations now give CHA to initiative for free, making them no longer need to take Noble Scion (and Oracles can do a ton more with feats than most other classes).
  • Walking while under cover from a shield or other effect gives you bonuses to initiative.
  • Without fractional saves, classes with strong REF saves are nonetheless going to multiclass to get that extra boost to initiative, which means it's less desirable to stick with pure rogue or monk.
  • Reactionary is now a true god trait.

Things that boost initiative doesn't apply to REF saves, they just modify an initiative roll. It might be worded better if Initiative was still a thing but your initiative total is "equal to your reflex save plus any miscellaneous initiative bonuses."

Initiative can't change during combat except when someone delays or goes unconscious (and wakes up again) so unless they had a tower shield pressed against the ground as cover they wouldn't even have a boosted REF save at the start of combat, not to mention the shield or cover doesn't increase reflex saves, it just gives them a bonus under certain conditions.

Grand Lodge

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Things that boost initiative doesn't apply to REF saves, they just modify an initiative roll.

Yes, exactly this. Your Reflex save now becomes a base stat that some things apply to at different times. Think about it like your flat-footed and touch AC - different things apply to each and some to both.

So the Reactionary trait would only give you +2 to Reflex saves made for initiative. Likewise, a cloak of resistance might only apply to Reflex saving throws. The Lightning Reflexes feat could apply to both.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
Things that boost initiative doesn't apply to REF saves, they just modify an initiative roll. It might be worded better if Initiative was still a thing but your initiative total is "equal to your reflex save plus any miscellaneous initiative bonuses."

That's fair. I apologize for not reading that part carefully enough.

It would still leave Sidestep Secret, though I imagine that won't be too much of an issue.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
SheepishEidolon wrote:
Further, it encourages dipping several high reflex classes, for each +2 initiative.
Theoretically, that shouldn't exist: the +2 is a start for having that save as a good save, so the answer is you don't keep getting +2's for taking a single level in a class that grants a good save that you already have, but instead just gives another +1/2.

I agree it's questionable but it works that way in Core Rulebook. That's why it was addressed in Unchained.

Depending on build you could say it's a tradeoff for getting more than usual -1s to BAB since the first level of 3/4 and 1/2 BAB classes provides no BAB. But that's also adressed in the same Unchained section.


Would adding BAB to initiative, plus your base Reflex save bonus (i.e. the one from class levels) be a another way of getting the results desired by this? One could then simply grant a class feature to rogues and monks saying they count their class level as their BAB for this effect. This seems like it would benefit everyone you want it to, while neatly putting casters even further behind. Or would that be to big a nerf to full casters?

Grand Lodge

Ethereal Gears wrote:
Would adding BAB to initiative, plus your base Reflex save bonus (i.e. the one from class levels) be a another way of getting the results desired by this? One could then simply grant a class feature to rogues and monks saying they count their class level as their BAB for this effect. This seems like it would benefit everyone you want it to, while neatly putting casters even further behind. Or would that be to big a nerf to full casters?

It's not entirely about nerfing casters or buffing martials; it's more about making Reflex as important as Fort and Will, while overall simplifying the game system by eliminating a redundant stat.


I do see the point of that. There's just something about a rule which makes bards a lot more likely to leap first into the fray than fighters that seems to me to be lacking somehow, but I get that's not the focus of this.

Grand Lodge

Ethereal Gears wrote:
I do see the point of that. There's just something about a rule which makes bards a lot more likely to leap first into the fray than fighters that seems to me to be lacking somehow, but I get that's not the focus of this.

"Leap into the fray" isn't a phrase I'd use to describe "winning initiative." The end result here is that classes with good reflexes act first in battle, which I think is both realistically accurate and a positive design shift for Pathfinder.


Oh, no, totally. I think this house rule is (no pun intended) a very good initiative. There's just a part of me wanting to somehow combine this with the idea of BAB influencing initiative (since the latter should reflect combat training as well as natural reflexes, in my book).

But!

As pointed out, that's not exactly the idea of this thread, so I'm sorry for a mild derail, as it were.

Cheers,
- Gears

Grand Lodge

I'm very interested to hear how this works out in everyone else's home games who tries it. Be sure to post and let me know!


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Ethereal Gears wrote:
Oh, no, totally. I think this house rule is (no pun intended) a very good initiative.

We have seen what you did there. Our reflexes are very fast, and this house rule has increased our Initiative and allowed us to register your statement in the International Registry of Puns (tm) faster than we could have accomplished without this house rule. Therefore, we formally approve of this proposed house rule.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It seems adding Reflex Base Save Bonus to Initiative would be easier than reclassifying Initiative in any other way.

Grand Lodge

Majuba wrote:
It seems adding Reflex Base Save Bonus to Initiative would be easier than reclassifying Initiative in any other way.

One of my primary goals is to get rid of initiative entirely, actually. It's a redundant stat, being basically just a Dexterity check with a handful of potential bonuses from various sources. I think it makes much more sense to just say "roll Reflex" instead of "roll initiative, then add your base Reflex bonus," or to add another calculation into the base initiative score and track that separately.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Headfirst wrote:
Duiker wrote:
First, things that improve saves but not initiative are contributing more than they normally would. So that Cloak of Resistance +2 is now suddenly boosting your initiative score.

Good point, but I still don't think it's a deal-breaker. Honestly, I was thinking of ditching the "big-six" as well, so this issue evaporates. I've seen house rules that halve the cost of cloaks of resistance, but makes their bonus only apply to one saving throw. Under that system, the Reflex cloak goes from being totally useless to on-par with Fort and Will cloaks.

Duiker wrote:
Paladins getting charisma to saves? Well one of the balancing parts of paladins is that they typically have terrible initiative, now those Cha 17 paladins will be going near the front generally.

Yes, paladins will gain some benefit, but not a lot. A paladin with 17 Charisma is still going to lose out to a rogue with a 17 Dexterity.

Duiker wrote:
Basically, initiative has very few things that add to it other than Improved Initiative (which would you houserule out then?) and the like, but a lot of stuff adds to reflex saves. Not a deal breaker, but something to keep in mind.

All the normal stuff that applies to initiative would still apply to Reflex saves made to establish turn order. So Improved Initiative would simply change to read, "You gain a +4 bonus on Reflex saving throws to establish turn order."

Duiker wrote:
Second, initiative does not directly scale with level.

It doesn't matter, because I'm just switching everyone (players and monsters) from a system that doesn't scale with levels to one that does, so it stays balanced across the PC/NPC line.

Duiker wrote:
I know this is part of the benefit of this, but it has an interesting side effect. When you are fighting a group of creatures that are lower level than the party (i.e. quantity over quality), under the new system their initiative scores will be in relative terms lower.
On the contrary, some...

It's probably simpler to just make it a class ability of Rogues at 5th level or so. "The Rogue adds his class Reflex save to his initiative roll." Or have a Talent that does the same + Improved Initiative. "Talent: The Rogue's base initiative modifier is now his Class Reflex save + Dexterity +4."

I just added his Danger Sense instead, since it did a better job conveying situational awareness. Sucked in about 4 different Talents and made them part of Danger Sense, a nice scaling class feature.

==Aelryinth


Headfirst wrote:
Majuba wrote:
It seems adding Reflex Base Save Bonus to Initiative would be easier than reclassifying Initiative in any other way.
One of my primary goals is to get rid of initiative entirely, actually. It's a redundant stat, being basically just a Dexterity check with a handful of potential bonuses from various sources. I think it makes much more sense to just say "roll Reflex" instead of "roll initiative, then add your base Reflex bonus," or to add another calculation into the base initiative score and track that separately.

As I mentioned earlier, it is probably simpler, both wording and functionality wise, to leave initiative there but make the reflex save be the base initiative - instead of just DEX mod - before adding initiative specific bonuses. This way what your wanting is there and people aren't confused by naming.

Grand Lodge

Aelryinth wrote:

It's probably simpler to just make it a class ability of Rogues at 5th level or so. "The Rogue adds his class Reflex save to his initiative roll." Or have a Talent that does the same + Improved Initiative. "Talent: The Rogue's base initiative modifier is now his Class Reflex save + Dexterity +4."

I just added his Danger Sense instead, since it did a better job conveying situational awareness. Sucked in about 4 different Talents and made them part of Danger Sense, a nice scaling class feature.

That achieves none of my primary goals. This is not a thread about buffing rogues.


You can't get rid of initiative unless you allow all the bonuses that apply to normal reflex saves to also apply to the reflex save for initiative. You've combined them and then separated them again, it's not streamlining it. I'm still going to be writing down my initiative score separately on my sheet from my regular reflex save. Effectively what you're doing is exactly what Majuba suggested, you're just calling the initiative check a reflex save.

However I think it may actually be a really good idea for the class reflex save bonus to also apply as a base initiative score. Makes sense and could help balance if only a tiny little bit in some cases.

Grand Lodge

AwesomenessDog wrote:
As I mentioned earlier, it is probably simpler, both wording and functionality wise, to leave initiative there but make the reflex save be the base initiative - instead of just DEX mod - before adding initiative specific bonuses. This way what your wanting is there and people aren't confused by naming.

Wouldn't that be redundant? Your Initiative and Reflex bonuses would be exactly the same, barring a handful of potential bonuses to one or the other. I'd really like to just eliminate initiative entirely.

I think one of the big deterrents to newbies picking up RPGs in general is the "noun shotgun" effect, or the confusion that sets in when they're hit with a bunch of new terms all at once. One way to combat that is to slim the game system down by trimming off redundancies, which I think Initiative is.


"Roll a reflex save but don't apply any of your normal bonuses for reflex saves, subtract those and add the special bonuses you have for initiative reflex saves only"

Grand Lodge

vorpaljesus wrote:
You can't get rid of initiative unless you allow all the bonuses that apply to normal reflex saves to also apply to the reflex save for initiative.

So when you play an elf, do you write down your Will save, then a completely separate calculation of your Will save versus enchantments? Or do you just make a quick note that you get +2 on Will saves versus enchantments?

That's essentially what I'm suggesting. So your rogue has the Reactionary trait. You just note that you have a +2 bonus on Reflex saves for initiative.

I guess if that's too complicated, you could just add your base Reflex save bonus to your Initiative score and keep both, but now you've not streamlined the system at all; you've just added an extra bit of math to one redundant stat.

But you're right: The overall point is to make Reflex more important and give a buff to classes with good Reflex saves. As long as those goals are maintained, I really don't care how the rest of you keep track of the numbers. :)


vorpaljesus, Initiative is just a normal reflex save + things like improved initiative and other already written in initiative bonuses, nothing is being lost, words are just being shifted and the rest of reflex saves are added in.

Headfirst, if you are introducing new players (and I'm assuming you are sitting there with them the entire introduction course) then you are still teaching them initiative then reteaching them another way (i.e. your houserule) for the sake of them understanding what Initiative is, but now they are using something that is named different but feeding into something that has the same original name and has specific bonuses with the original name in their wordings. While the "noun shotgunning" isn't changed, its crossing the streams of the nouns which as we all know, "you don't cross the streams." Leaving the name "initiative" in and just saying that "reflex save is treated as dex mod..." crosses terminology a lot less.

Grand Lodge

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Headfirst, if you are introducing new players (and I'm assuming you are sitting there with them the entire introduction course) then you are still teaching them initiative then reteaching them another way (i.e. your houserule) for the sake of them understanding what Initiative is, but now they are using something that is named different but feeding into something that has the same original name and has specific bonuses with the original name in their wordings. While the "noun shotgunning" isn't changed, its crossing the streams of the nouns which as we all know, "you don't cross the streams." Leaving the name "initiative" in and just saying that "reflex save is treated as dex mod..." crosses terminology a lot less.

If I were using this system, I'd just start every battle by saying, "Roll Reflex to determine turn order."


I think it's a good idea, and it neatly folds scaling Initiative (so higher levels are faster than lower levels, yay experience!) and improving Reflex saves importance (since Initiative is a big important thing, and Reflex tends to just avoid hitpoint damage or trap-like effects: ie falling in a pit).

I'm curious how things like Trap Sense would work... +Reflex vs traps. How do you have an Initiative "vs something". Doesn't make sense really.
Unless that's one of the situational/circumstantial modifiers that wouldn't apply to Initiative rolls.

Grand Lodge

Kaisoku wrote:

I'm curious how things like Trap Sense would work... +Reflex vs traps. How do you have an Initiative "vs something". Doesn't make sense really.

Unless that's one of the situational/circumstantial modifiers that wouldn't apply to Initiative rolls.

Well, just like almost every other stat in the game, you have pluses and minuses in different situations. A rogue might have a base Reflex save of +4, with a +1 versus traps and a +2 on initiative from Reactionary.

And if he's an elf, he has a base Will save of +1, with a +2 versus enchantments. It works the exact same way and would be noted as such on his character sheet.


Kaisoku wrote:

I think it's a good idea, and it neatly folds scaling Initiative (so higher levels are faster than lower levels, yay experience!) and improving Reflex saves importance (since Initiative is a big important thing, and Reflex tends to just avoid hitpoint damage or trap-like effects: ie falling in a pit).

I'm curious how things like Trap Sense would work... +Reflex vs traps. How do you have an Initiative "vs something". Doesn't make sense really.
Unless that's one of the situational/circumstantial modifiers that wouldn't apply to Initiative rolls.

A better way to look at it is just to treat it as UC Rogue's "danger sense", bonus to initiative as a flat thing instead of to traps.

Grand Lodge

Just checking back in here to let everyone know that, after a couple games in my home group, the Reflex as initiative house rule has been overwhelmingly positively received.

1) The players vs. monsters balance has not been upset (it's not like one or the other suddenly started winning initiative every battle).

2) The rogues in each party are getting more first-round sneak attacks in, which gives the class a much needed boost.

3) All of the additional rules tweaks required were just kind of obvious and easy to understand. "Does Improved Initiative make me better at dodging traps now? No, of course not, it only adds to Reflex saves for initiative."

4) The handful of new players in each group enjoyed the reduction in overall stats to keep track of (though Pathfinder is still a bit heavy on numbers). One of the newer players even assumed Reflex was used for initiative before I even declared it a house rule. "When we see bad guys, it seems like whoever has the best reflexes should go first; is that what that stat is for?"

So, good news all around with just a little bit of redesign in terms of the feats, traits, and magic items that affect saving throws and/or initiative.

Has anyone else tried this out yet?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

IT's long been presented as an option for Initiative on the boards, and generally positively. Especially since it favors Rogues.

However, do all the normal init-buffing feats and powers stack with it? You could get some REALLY monstrous Init rolls if it's just a 'free boost' to Wizards who can already reach some incredible heights of init.

==Aelryinth


Change the name from reflex saves to reaction checks or something. "Saves" makes it sound like you're trying to protect yourself from something.


Goddity wrote:
Change the name from reflex saves to reaction checks or something. "Saves" makes it sound like you're trying to protect yourself from something.

Pretty sure the OP's intent was to cut down on paperwork. Renaming initiative as "Reaction" doesn't seem to accomplish that.

Grand Lodge

Aelryinth wrote:
However, do all the normal init-buffing feats and powers stack with it?

Yes, all traits, feats, and class features that buff initiative are instead added to the Reflex save to determine turn order. However, they aren't added to normal Reflex saves, so no +4 versus traps for having Improved Initiative. :)

Grand Lodge

Goddity wrote:
Change the name from reflex saves to reaction checks or something. "Saves" makes it sound like you're trying to protect yourself from something.

How about "save versus surprise?"


Headfirst wrote:
Goddity wrote:
Change the name from reflex saves to reaction checks or something. "Saves" makes it sound like you're trying to protect yourself from something.
How about "save versus surprise?"

That works much better.


Aelryinth wrote:

IT's long been presented as an option for Initiative on the boards, and generally positively. Especially since it favors Rogues.

However, do all the normal init-buffing feats and powers stack with it? You could get some REALLY monstrous Init rolls if it's just a 'free boost' to Wizards who can already reach some incredible heights of init.

==Aelryinth

numbers per se don't matter, it's all relative...

assuming all reflex bonuses and init bonuses still stack,
numbers will get huge, but wizards end up net disfavored vs. rogues/etc.
it does end up net favoring high level vs low levels, esp. considering general save bonuses from items etc.
which honestly is pretty reasonable, even if you don't specially invest in Init, high levels should be quicker on draw etc.
it does have net effect of decreasing value of Init specific boosts, and increasing value of Save/Ref Save boosts.
(by Init boosts becoming less exclusive, and broad-coverage Save boosts becoming even broader effect)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Well, the only problem is monsters tend to have monster physical stats and good Reflex saves, and Imp Init is a VERY common feat for them. That translates to monster init stats that only a good Reflex save class could possibly catch up to. Leaving things like fighters and barbs in the dust with paladins, clerics and non-Diviner mages.

But wizards can still take a familiar for +4 to Init, and the other classes have no such equalizer.

==Aelryinth

Grand Lodge

Quandary wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

IT's long been presented as an option for Initiative on the boards, and generally positively. Especially since it favors Rogues.

However, do all the normal init-buffing feats and powers stack with it? You could get some REALLY monstrous Init rolls if it's just a 'free boost' to Wizards who can already reach some incredible heights of init.

==Aelryinth

numbers per se don't matter, it's all relative...

assuming all reflex bonuses and init bonuses still stack,
numbers will get huge, but wizards end up net disfavored vs. rogues/etc.
it does end up net favoring high level vs low levels, esp. considering general save bonuses from items etc.
which honestly is pretty reasonable, even if you don't specially invest in Init, high levels should be quicker on draw etc.
it does have net effect of decreasing value of Init specific boosts, and increasing value of Save/Ref Save boosts.
(by Init boosts becoming less exclusive, and broad-coverage Save boosts becoming even broader effect)

Cool, everything you just said is part of the core design of this feature. Remember, the basis of this idea isn't just to get rid of initiative as a redundant stat, but to bring Reflex up in importance compared to the other two saves. :)


Right, sounds like we're on the same freq here...

re: Ael's points, I just don't see enough to persuade against this...
If you think a monster's Init is too high, then swap out II for another feat,
possibly Lightning Reflexes if a +2 boost is still reasonable, or anthing else...
Honestly, that is probably one of the easier adjustments I can imagine from a fundamental rule change.

PCs in reality have effective access to broader array of Save boosts, as well as Traits that mosnters don't.

Not sure if it was brought up yet, but IMHO (REF) Save Re-Rolls should NOT apply to this Init roll:
That would be over-kill.
Of course if you have explicit Init Re-Roll abilities, those still work using the new Init bonus.


I've been in Star Wars mode for so long, Quandary, that I saw your avatar and first thought "Zabrak" rather than (presumably) "Tiefling". :)

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