I wasn't quite satisfied with Imbue Spell, so here's another take on a buffing metamagic.
Charge Spell:
Prerequisite: Selective Spell
Benefit: Creatures that are selected to be safe from the effects of your fireball are charged with power.
Anyone affected by a charge spell gains 1 charge that lasts for 1 minute. You can expend a charge to gain one of the following benefits as a free action:
Gain HP equal to twice the level of this spell. If your HP is below 0, the charge is automatically expended to gain HP.
Gain a +2 to hit on a single attack roll. This can be used after the attack roll is made, but before results are revealed.
Move 5 extra feet when taking a 5 foot step, 10 extra feet when taking a move action, or 20 extra feet when charging.
An imbue spell uses a spell slot two levels higher than the spells actual level.
Basically a series of minor buffs that help you reach just a little bit farther when in a pinch.
And that metamagic inspired another one!
Phoenix Spell:
Prerequisite: Selective Spell, Charge Spell
Benefit: One creature selected to be safe from the effects of your fireball gains 5 charges. All charges are expended to give the creature HP; this healing functions as breath of life.
A phoenix spell uses a spell slot four levels higher than the spells actual level.
One thing to remember with this metamagic, is that I can control the level of the fireball from Micro, Mini, normal, to Heightened. (1, 2, 3, 4+) This will reduce or increase the healing accordingly, but it's nice be able to adjust the heal to the right amount. (Micro heals 10, Mini 20, normal 30, etc.)
These haven't been cleared by my GM yet, but I'm anxious to get the idea out of my head.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, Skill Focus with the class skill of bloodline selected for this feat (see below), character level 3rd.
Benefit: Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.
The character isn't eligible for the feat since Draconic is a bloodline she already possesses Further, Improved Eldritch Heritage says that effective sorcerer level for the power is CL-2, regardless of actual sorcerer level (which implies effective sorcerer level from other sources, such as Dragon Disciple). Even if you allow her to use the feat, I would not recommend allowing the effective levels to stack to over her character level.
Well the Bard/DD doesn't have a bloodline, really. There's this in the prerequisite for Dragon Disciple:
Quote:
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.
The character doesn't have a bloodline, until it's taken sorcerer levels.
Also this:
Quote:
Blood of Dragons: A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained. He must choose a dragon type upon gaining his first level in this class and that type must be the same as his sorcerer type. This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.
I don't think that's the same as having a bloodline? It's like "If you have a bloodline, X; if you don't, X"
However, you're probably right on the interpretation of it not stacking? Paizo is generally wary of abilities exceeding what character level would normally allow...
So my player is playing a Bard 5/Dragon Disciple X and she is curious if this would work:
Improved Eldritch Heritage: You gain Breath Weapon equal to character level -2.
Dragon Disciple: Bloodline abilities increase equal to dragon disciple level.
So at level 11, a Bard 5/Dragon Disciple 6 with IEH, would her breath weapon deal 15d6 damage? (6 from DD, 11 minus 2 from character level)
I have half a mind to allow it, since I like my players having a nice nova option, especially for a character who would normally be contented just slashing her opponents to death, but occasionally wants to smote her enemies to nothingness.
Prerequisite: Selective Spell
Benefit: You can teleport creatures within your spell.
In addition to the creatures you select with selective spell, you can select unoccupied squares within the area of the selective spell. (For example, if you have +7 Int modifier, you can select 4 creatures to be safe from the effects of your spell and 3 unoccupied squares)
You can teleport creatures safe from the effects of your spell to one of the designated unoccupied squares. A creature may make a will save to resist this effect.
Posting this as a half-idea. So far it's too powerful to use, the most worrisome abuse is when it's combined with Break Spell.
Thanks for the encouragement. ;3 Honestly, I wish I could lower the damage output of fireball. More than damage, I want to have my thesis capable of doing whatever I want! Want a debuff? Entangle with Rime Spell. Want battlefield control? Lingering Spell. Want to shut opponents down? Dazing spell!
I don't have much in the way of advice for you that hasn't already been said, I just wanted to chime in (a bit late, admittedly) and note that I love this idea. One spell fits all! And Fireball is a great choice for it.
Fitting with this theme, as long as you're playing with 3rd ed stuff, I would see if your GM will let you get Sculpt Spell, found in Tome and Blood, and Complete Arcane. It does the following.
"You can modify an area spell by changing the area's shape. The new area must be chosen from the following list: cylinder (10-foot radius, 30 feet high), 40-foot cone, four 10-foot cubes, or a ball (20-foot-radius spread). The sculpted spell works normally in all respects except for its shape. For example, a lightning bolt spell whose area is changed to a ball deals the same amount of damage, but the lightning ball affects a 20-foot-radius spread. A sculpted spell uses a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level."
This is a nice start for your proposed Break Spell homebrew feat.
Mix my homebrew break spell with sculpt spell? That's kind of genius; I'll have to think about that. (Or mini/micro spell with sculpt spell...) I continued the discussion of homebrew metamagic in this thread, if you're interested: Wizards can have nice things! Spell-like metamagic?
I've made 3 more that my GM approves of; Elemental Augment, Storm, and Imbue. Really adds a lot of options in debuffing, battlefield control... and even buffing!
Our group is contemplating this very issue right now. We've been playing EASY MODE under an unusually benevolent GM for about 5 years from now, and the new GMs that have popped up out of the group (Myself included, ~2 years ago) have followed suit.
However, I'm considering something like a 2 shot campaign on HARD MODE. Not to force players into becoming victims of the vicissitudes of fate, but just so they know that there is another side to Pathfinder. Although HARD MODE to me isn't 20, 20, 20 you're dead. HARD MODE is a lot of other things my players aren't used to:
15 point buy (We have ~42 point buy?)
Difficult terrain/weather
Some traps
Fudging exists, but is reserved to the GM (Right now a non-GM player will advise his friend: "Eh, interference; roll that again")
Smarter enemies
Players can die (At least, monsters will not go out of their way to not kill you, which is the current policy that guides monster behavior)
I like EASY MODE, so do my friends, but I think trying this out will at least be an interesting experience, but then we can go back to our family friendly adventuring. (Unless people really dig it!)
TL;DR: Enjoy the game how you want to! Our group loves EASY MODE and that's fine. Just don't be afraid to try out HARD MODE someday, as long as everyone is willing to give it a shot!
Well, talked with my GM, and it sounds like Elemental Augment, Storm, and Imbue have all passed the test for usage in our group. I'm still trying to come up with at least one more metamagic that branches off of lingering spell, but other than that, I'm pretty stoked with how these metamagic have turned out. Especially when used alongside my gifts from the GM!
Ok, somebody help me come up with some traits for an Aasimar life oracle with the tongues curse. This is the only aspect of the character I cannot decide on.
BTW, this is a PFS character.
dangerously curious and defensive strategist
Those are some awesome traits. Use Magic Device is fantastic for an Oracle. (Might even help you contribute to combat in other ways if just Bless and healing doesn't seem to be enough!) Defensive strategist is borderline overpowered. Good at keeping you alive at least, which is good for the healer!
Spell selection would seem to be an important part of the build. What do you want to do with this character? Just heal?
Well, of all the classes, an Oracle of Life can get away with "Just heal." They're nova healers. xD
Eventually, they can heal as a standard action, (channel, cure spell) a move action, (quick channel) a swift action, (combat healer) a few as free actions (life bond, energy body after you start it up)
So "just heal" is actually a decent contribution to the party, even in combat. Add in bless and some other support spells and it should go okay.
However, I'll admit I really liked the Oracle of Life in our group with the Blackened curse. Sometimes our level 7 Oracle of Life launching off 2 rays off a scorching ray is just what the party needs to win.
Ok, somebody help me come up with some traits for an Aasimar life oracle with the tongues curse. This is the only aspect of the character I cannot decide on.
BTW, this is a PFS character.
Well, traits can be whatever you want. Ideally, you'd pick traits that fit with your characters back-story.
However, here's a short list of suggestions:
Is there a saving throw you think is a little low? Well, you can add +1 to any saving throw you want with a trait.
Is there a skill you wish you had as a class skill? Well, you can take a trait for that.
Do you want more initiative? Reactionary is a solid trait. Although initiative on a healer doesn't seem all that great, since you do a lot of things in reaction to people being hurt. But I guess you can always kick off a combat with bless, etc?
I'm a fan of Exalted of the Society, but I'm not sure if PFS makes it so you can only take that trait if you're a cleric?
...
But really, traits aren't that huge; you don't have to worry about feat chains, so most builds aren't defined by their traits, unless they're taking Magical Lineage, which I don't think an Oracle needs.
Prerequisite: Selective Spell
Benefit: Creatures that are selected to be safe from the effects of your fireball can be imbued with the power of a spell. As you cast an imbue spell, sacrifice a 3rd level or lower prepared spell of one of the following types:
Targets one creature: This spell is cast upon one of the creatures selected by selective spell.
Targets one creature/level, no two... 30 ft apart: This spell is cast with creatures selected by selective spell as the targets; they can be farther than 30 ft apart.
Communal spell, targets creatures touched: This spell is cast and the duration divided among creatures selected by selective spell.
An imbue spell uses a spell slot three levels higher than the spells actual level.
Special: An imbue spell can only produce its spell effect once; even if Twin Spell, Break Spell, or anything makes you cast the same spell more than once. However, you may break up an imbue spell that targets more than one creature across your multiple spells.
I really like this one. Playing off of selective spell to buff with fireball! I like the image: my fireballs lay waste to my enemies, but invigorate my friends with haste!
But is it busted... I hope not? It does require you to sacrifice a prepared spell and is limited to 3rd level or lower spells, so that does help balance the +3 cost.
Prerequisite: Lingering Spell
Benefit: The edges of the area of this spell acts as the wind wall spell. This effect is active as long as a lingering spell persists. A storm spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.
Special: When you have this feat, increase the duration of Lingering Spell by 1 round. (This applies even if storm spell isn't being used)
Now works with any element.
I dropped the min damage over time, as it could get kind of ugly when combined with dazing spell or the homebrew elemental augment spell. (New save every round)
Also, extend may no longer be house-ruled to stack with lingering in response to the new special clause within storm spell.
Our group just started a 4th campaign, our 4th GM being our first female GM. She's doing great! I think we enjoy it more than any other campaign. Another one of our female players is thinking of GMing a one or two shot evil campaign and it sounds like it'll be a blast. (Lawful evil, since that's the easiest way to get a vaguely coherent plot)
So my first metamagic was imitating Ray of Exhaustion, Grease, Glitterdust, or Stone Call. So now let's try Wind Wall! (And actually use lingering this time!)
Firestorm Spell:
Prerequisite: Lingering Spell
Benefit: The following effects are active as long as a lingering spell persists. At the beginning of your next turn and every round thereafter, creatures within the area take damage from the spell once again, except it's the minimum damage. (8d6 becomes 8 damage) The edges of the area of this spell acts as the wind wall spell.
A firestorm spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.
Could also call it Blizzard/Lightning Storm? Make it only work on Fire/Elec/Cold damage? Anyway, interesting? Balanced?
Getting to apply whatever spell effect I want, whenever I want, in any combination I want seems kind of dull, so how about this?
Elemental Augment Spell:
Benefit: Choose one of the following abilities below; you can only select the ability if the spell deals the appropriate kind of damage.
Fire: When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become exhausted for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw, a successful save negates the exhaustion effect. If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a fort save to negate the exhaustion effect.
Cold: The area of the spell becomes slippery for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. When a creature takes damage from this spell, they fall prone. If the spell allows a saving throw, a successful save negates falling prone. If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a reflex save to negate falling prone. A creature can walk within or through the slippery area at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details). Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.
Electricity: The air is laced with charged particles that glow, covering everyone and everything in the area, visibly outlining invisible things for the duration of the spell. When a creature takes damage from this spell, they are blinded for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw, a successful save negates the blinding effect. If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a will save to negate the blindness effect. Each round at the end of their turn blinded creatures may attempt new saving throws to end the blindness effect.
Acid: The area of the spell becomes difficult terrain for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become sickened for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw, a successful save negates the sickened effect. If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a fort save to negate the sickened effect.
An elemental augment spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.
Elemental Augment Spell (Fireball Only, For Less Clutter):
Benefit: You can only apply this metamagic to fireball. Choose one of the following abilities below; you can only select the ability if the spell deals the appropriate kind of damage.
Fire: When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become exhausted for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. A successful save negates the exhaustion effect.
Cold: The area of the spell becomes slippery for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. When a creature takes damage from this spell, they fall prone. A successful save negates falling prone. A creature can walk within or through the slippery area at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details). Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.
Electricity: The air is laced with charged particles that glow, covering everyone and everything in the area, visibly outlining invisible things for the duration of the spell. When a creature takes damage from this spell, they are blinded for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. A successful save negates the blinding effect. Each round at the end of their turn blinded creatures may attempt new saving throws to end the blindness effect. (This is a will save)
Acid: The area of the spell becomes difficult terrain for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become sickened for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. A successful save negates the sickened effect.
An elemental augment spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.
Interesting? More importantly, balanced? Not quite happy with acid yet, (redundant with Sickening Spell?) but otherwise, I think I like it.
@Tacticslion: Glad the topic seemed interesting enough to warrant a dot. :3
So for a casual game I have been ludicrously richly endowed by my GM:
- I can research existing metamagic or make my own metamagic for 5k
- I have Arcane Thesis (-1 level adjustment for each metamagic applied; ex. Dazing (+2), Lingering (+0) Fireball takes a 5th level slot to cast)
- I have Magical Lineage
- I have Preferred Spell (Cast fireball spontaneously by sacrificing a prepared or unprepared slot)
You may have seen this Arcane Thesis fireball wielding wizard in another thread. At first, I was scared of out-damaging the entire party; however thanks to that thread, I'm stoked about the possibilities of turning fireball into less of a damage spell, and more of a control spell.
Metamagic I intend to use a lot:
Dazing
Rime (Thanks to admixture evoker and Preferred Spell)
Lingering
Extend (House-ruled to extend lingering to 2 rounds)
Beyond those metamagic, I have the flexibility to research my own and already have one approved by my GM. (Actually, it's 2 metamagic for the price 1!) These two feats give me low damage, highly versatile fireballs across the battlefield. Imagine combining Break/Lingering/Rime/Extend together! Imagine littering the battlefield with 8 2x2 squares that last for 2 rounds, can do minor damage and entangle creatures for 3 rounds, and do the same to those who enter those squares later.
Break Spell:
Benefit: You may apply this metamagic only to a fireball spell:
You can break a spell, as if casting a weaker version multiple times.
A creature does not take any additional damage or suffer any effects beyond the first effect if an area is hit by more than one part of the Break Spell.
This feat has two modes:
Break - Break Spell splits into 2 mini spells or 4 micro spells of this spell. A Break Spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than it's actual level.
Big Break - Big Break Spell splits into 4 mini spells or 8 micro spells of this spell. A Big Break Spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than it's actual level.
These mini and micro spells are as described in Micro/Mini Spell, except are treated as a 3rd level spells and have a range of long.
Micro/Mini Spell:
Benefit: You may apply either form of this metamagic only to a fireball spell:
A micro spell is treated as a 1st level spell for all purposes, has a reduced range of close, a reduced radius of 5ft, and all variable damage becomes the minimum amount. (Ex. 6d6 becomes 6 damage) A micro spell uses up a spell slot two levels than the spell’s actual level.
A mini spell is treated as a 2nd level spell for all purposes, has a reduced range of medium, a reduced radius of 10ft, and all variable damage becomes 2. (Ex. 7d6 becomes 14 damage) A mini spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than the spell’s actual level.
Special: Micro/mini spell is not treated as a metamagic for the purpose of abilties that would reduce a spell’s slot when metamagic is applied, such as Magical Lineage.
Anyway, my goal right now is to create some spell-like metamagic. What does that mean? Researching metamagic (many that would branch off of lingering spell) that would make fireball immitate different kinds of spells, such as:
Wind Wall
Glitterdust
Antimagic field (Well, maybe not)
Ray of Exhaustion
Icy Prison
Grease
Stone Call
The idea is to turn fireball into battlefield control and debuffing. So, suggestions on developing some fun and balanced homebrew spell-like metamagic that I could apply to fireball? (Or frost/shocking/corrosive ball if that better suits the flavor of the metamagic?)
Not sure if it's available in PFS, but there's an Aasimar curse that gives a -4 on attack rolls, but gives you access to a few spells like burning hands, scorching ray, and flaming sphere.
Another idea, going off of that is to take the dual-cursed oracle. I'd take the above curse and tongues together, if you can.
Another thought is that you definitely want to use your favored class bonus to add 50% to your class level for determining the power of your channel energy. So you channel 8d6 by level 10, for example.
Also, quick channel is a nice feat to pick up at level 5, to channel as a move action. If you can take Exalted of the Society as a trait, that gives you an extra channeling per day. Extra Channel can also help if you're really interested in channeling.
That's... actually kind of a mid to late game spell. I like preparing a couple magic missiles at level 9+ to get in some no save, no miss, no resist damage when there's nothing better to do. As Treantmonk would say, fulfilling your quaternary role as a wizard.
There's also the travel domain, which you could take as a cleric or inquisitor which would grant +10 to movement speed. I think travel domain as a cleric also gives you longstrider, a spell that gives you +10 movement speed for 1 hour/level.
...but that might be even less desirable than a barbarian dip, since you do lose BAB.
Monks also get a lot of bonus movement, eventually.
You CAN have your dumpstat, its just that whatever you dumped in wont be all that amazing... if someone dumped CON then complained they didn't have enough HP to be a good Fighter, would you even listen to them?
So why is INT fair game?
Well, it may be a poor reflection on the community or perhaps the game, but the perception is that whether a character has 1 skill point per level or 10 skill points per level, the character's power is the same. So why not open the skill system to more classes since it hardly affects game balance?
Not saying this is a good thing, but just stating what I see. Skill points seem barely relevant to the power of your character.
remember that someone that has a 7 int has a IQ of 70, with that IQ they would be lucky to know 1 or 2 skills trained after that they would be untrained in almost everything. Its not the skill points that need to be changed its the ability for people to dump stats that needs to be changed, think if someone had a 70 IQ would anyone want to adventure with them for any amount of time, would you want them on watch at night or watching your back?
INT has no clear connection to IQ, and certainly not a simply * 10. One in a billion is six standard deviations; there's no reason to expect any human on Golarion to have above a 100 + 6 * 15 = 190 IQ. But human characters with 20 INTs are a dime a dozen, not unique.
If 10 is an average stat, then "no dump stats" means that you can't have a character who is subaverage in any way. That's quite a limitation on character concepts.
True, there is no such correlation to Int to IQ, but this is fantasy we're talking about. So fantasy IQ is bound to stretch the bounds of plausibility, and no, 20 Int is not a dime a dozen among the commoners of Golarion, it's just a dime a dozen among wizard builds on these forums.
Our group made a trait that gave you +1 skill points per level. A little powerful for a trait, but in a way that we like it.
...so someone dumped Int, but still wants a few skill points to spend? Take the trait! You're a rogue and want ALL DA SKILLZ? Take the trait. Whoever you are, if you care enough to have some skill points, you have your trait.
Thus, talk this over with your DM. I am pretty sue he’ll be OK with it, but he’s thank you for being considerate and it will prevent the whole game from crashing to a stop the first time you use it and he has to figure out how the heck you’re getting those numbers.
Explained to my GM all of the gritty details, he liked it and will keep my capabilities in the back of his mind. Actually he said it gave him an idea for another one of his characters. Scary. xP
So, this sort of thing can lead to DM frustration due to him having to come up with scenarios that challenge the whole party.
Thus, talk this over with your DM. I am pretty sue he’ll be OK with it, but he’s thank you for being considerate and it will prevent the whole game from crashing to a stop the first time you use it and he has to figure out how the heck you’re getting those numbers.
This is good advice for any “one trick (but it’s a darn good one) pony build”.
Well, I'm currently at level 2 and my character has a mostly linear growth of power, so I think it'll be okay? Crane Style won't be until level 7, Improved Stalwart won't be until level 11... And other things will be going on, like superstition at level 4, pounce by level 10, Come and Get Me level 12...
So I'm not sure there's any one point my build gets "out of control", I think it's just strong most of the way along. xD
But yes, fair point, I'll let my GM know what I'm up to. He's pretty good at adapting anyway, since we're in the world that he made up.
Personally I prefer the versatility of prepared casters, but I also like to have some spontaneous options as well. I loved The Chort's "God Fireball" wizard concept but didn't like Admixture as a whole. My version includes Preferred Spell (Dragon's Breath) as his weapon of choice, while using the Foresight school for it's awesome abilities.
Glad you liked my idea! Fireball certainly isn't the only spell you can use within that concept. I think it works well and I certainly enjoyed making the much maligned fireball into a more respectable spell.
I actually had an earlier version of the build as a Foresight Diviner, in fact. Being able to sacrifice unused divination spells is very handy, since those spells are particularly situational.
Who cares. They both get 9th level spells! Its like asking whats worse... getting hit by a 9.5 earthquake or a Nuke... either way your dead.
I like this comparison.
Are wizards/clerics better than sorcs/oracles? Yeah, probably. However, they can perform much the same devastatingly powerful role that you might as well screw the theoretical "optimal" class and choose your favorite style. Having fun is the true victory, as much of the forum is wont to say.
*random side note* I prefer playing Wizards over Sorcerers, yet oddly enough prefer Oracles over Clerics.
It's funny, but for all the evo-bashing I'm seeing here, Treantmonk rated evocation green, and that was core only. Professor Q rates it blue, using all the other PF books.
As a highly regarded expert, it's good to see that these intellectual giants agree with me. It gives further weight to my assertion that evocation is a good specialty school, and that evokers can do more than just blast.
I love how flexible evocation is; and yes it can do more than blast, but even its blast spells shouldn't be underestimated;
Icy Prison can range from a disable spell to a deadly blast spell.
Cold Ice Strike is a spell with a 6th level saving throw, yet only takes a swift action to cast for very respectable amounts of damage.
The much maligned fireball can become a wonderfully flexible control spell if you're mindful to apply metamagic like rime (admixture + spontaneous casting through feats) or dazing spell.
It's great that evocation can do more than blast as all it's proponents are apt to mention, but it's also noteworthy that a few of the blasts are also good spells.
The general reasoning behind our feat buy system is to encourage less popular tactics (combat maneuvers, channel energy as an attack) and to enable interesting but feat intensive builds, so the first feat of a number of feat trees can be gotten (dodge, improved trip, iron will, improved unarmed strike and so on)
Perhaps most interestingly is feats as a form of loot. GMs can give great fortitude after a particularly harrowing ordeal. A GM can have the poor, but well trained town guard teach the fighter effective combat maneuvers. A wizard can research new ways to manipulate his spells. GMs even have the latitude to hand out feats we don't actually allow you to buy, like teamwork feats.
So... It's not a particularly crucial homebrew rule, but we enjoy it.
Haha, thanks for the tip. I like to do things proper, so, really, good to know. XD
...what VRMH said. We have some feats we're allowed to buy, like the improved combat maneuver feats, the alertness line of feats, metamagic, and a few others.
Barbarians are rather feat starved and have a lot of interesting feats they can take, especially with Extra Rage Power. However, an interesting opportunity opened up with some homebrew rules; first, there are a select few feats that can be trained instead of taken, for a price, such as:
Well the best synergy of those builds lies with the fighter/cleric, given it's just a regular cleric except really good at combat.
Might I suggest going for Sorcerer/Monk, if you want to do an arcane/monk mix? If you choose the Empyreal bloodline, you'd be able to cast off of wisdom. While 25 point buy is generous, it's not so generous that you don't mind reducing MAD-ness.
*random aside* I absolutely adore your guide to adventure, Ashiel. Really gave me a lot of ideas on how I could do so many fun things, especially at low levels. I've started using nets, alchemical items, cure light wounds and lesser restoration scrolls and wands, a locket of heightened continual flame... ...and rope. Can't believe I didn't always carry rope.
Well, I dunno if I'll ever get rid of XP. I've always liked amassing XP points. It creates a sense of accomplishment to tally down the XPs after an adventure, and anxiously awaiting the next level. :P
And I don't actually know of anyone who would actually slaughter peasants for XP but I've heard horror stories from other non-d20 games. :P
Haha, I wouldn't recommend most of our homebrew ways of doing things. It just works for us, since we're lazy in a number of ways. For one, it means there's no leveling up in the middle of the session, which, although can be kind of exciting, can drain quite a bit of time.
This is mostly why I said "yes, no, maybe" in my post. It depends on how you view it and I don't particularly consider myself self-limiting but others might. I've met those who believe if you have knock then you're only holding back by not using it at every opportunity, probably just for the rogue's sake (of course such activity tends to be really dumb in my opinion since spell slots and/or scrolls aren't to be flushed opening random diaries and stuff).
So yes, smart management is in a way a self-imposed limit. It's just one that sane people use all the time (you don't immediately spend all your money frivolously merely because you could). But it's probably not the sort of limits that some are expecting or may even view as limits.
To be a wizard is to be a resource manager. Well, unless you're in a game that lets you rest and restore all spells after one or two encounters. ...which has been known to happen in my group. But I try to always keep something in reserve.
Ashiel wrote:
Well, sort of. I'm mostly poking fun at the idea of self-imposed limits. See, by strict comparison, any time I did something that didn't somehow progress my character merely because I won't do so is an instance of self-limiting. Of course, this measure of self-limiting is by its nature just roleplaying or again just not being clinically insane. :P
I have to admit, I chuckled at the prospect of outright killing all NPCs since they're EXP on legs. xD
Maybe it's a good thing we sort of abolished the EXP system. We pretty much just say, "Okay it's been two sessions since you last leveled up and I think you've gotten enough experience... Everyone level up." Without really counting anything.
Well, I'm under the impression that the game imposes enough limits on you already so why help it out? But, I recall a passage from a game (can't remember which) which discussed the differences between "good" magi and "evil" magi. It went something like this;
'Good wizards hold themselves back. They possess the power to bend reality to their will, but they exhibit care and caution to avoid harming innocents nearby. As a result, their fireballs tend to be not as explosive; their lightnings more direct. But when a wizard loses that caution, when they no longer care about the safety of those nearby, their true and terrible power is fully unleashed.'
If you want the system to mechanically reflect this, maybe a houserule that so long as you maintain a 'Good' alignment, all your spells have -2 damage but +2 to hit or save DC and while 'Evil' you invert them (+2 dam, -2 hit/save).
Hrmm, doesn't seem very balanced. Being good would be gamebreaking, since your DCs would be all the higher, especially with things like a Dazing Fireball.
I think I'll leave alignment out of how spells manifest and have good or evil only determine how the spell is used. (Burn down the village? Or save the village from menacing monsters?)
Are you dead set on using Fireball as your focused spell? Magic Missile makes a great low-damage, high-versatility metamagic carrier. Think Quickened Toppling Dazing MM for the low, low cost of a 4th level slot.
People have run the numbers on Toppling and it isn't terribly impressive. I think Ravingdork tried it and it never tripped anyone. Ever. :(
Dazing on magic missile seems kind of a waste; it will only daze them for 1 round, and this turns it into a will save, since magic missile doesn't have a save. An attractive thing about fireball is that it turns a spell with a reflex save into something of a save or die. Failing a reflex save usually only means extra damage, but this makes it deadly. I think someone ran the numbers and said, on average, the lowest saving throw in the game is reflex.
...and finally, fireball has been "my spell" over years past, and I'm trying to make a point out of doing something cool with it. (Take a look at my "Break Spell" homebrew feat I posted earlier) In my very first campaign, I made an arcane thesis fireball wizard. (Ah, 3.5 and its brokenness) I wasn't very restrained back then and at least 1 of my friends was unhappy from me hogging all the glory, so arcane thesis on this character with fireball is also something of a test for myself to see if I can't be a better player when working with the same conditions. (heck, even worse now with magical lineage)
EDIT: Oh, and I don't want it to be low damage ALL the time. Just most of the time. At key points when it makes sense to go all out, I intend to do so!
Well, uh, we can sell loot at market price, so we usually just do that, split the gold evenly and buy what we want. ~.~
Yeah, I know; we're doing it wrong/loot is never exciting/we broke the game/whatever. It's worked for our group. The GM doesn't need to carefully plan out magic items according to the players' needs, so that's one less burden for the GM to carry. We also never have any disputes on who gets what. We just divide it evenly and shamelessly spend our GP on whatever items we'd like to have.
I am the bookkeeper, by the way. So no running tabs, but I still have to valuate all the loot. Oh, we also don't really appraise or use identify. We're just given the value of all loot. (Unless it's directly related to plot; like we could sell this rare item to one of two different buyers who desperately want it.)
Finally, our items don't need a story; we're the story. If we want to make some big deal about a magical item, I guess we could and it has happened before. (Acquired an intelligent item in the very first campaign we played) But generally speaking, it's beside the point and only occasionally needs to be a point of focus. Let's get our characters leveled up, slap on our big six, and get back to enjoying the story and each other.
So has anyone had success with imposing limits on yourself for the sake of letting the rest of the party shine/giving your GM a break? Or a limit to fit your character's personality? Help coming up with a good guideline for when to use it would be much appreciated!
Yes and no, sort of, and maybe. Most of my characters aren't going to outshine the rest of the party if the rest of the party is being pro-active. I generally enjoy playing spellcasters like wizards and it's more productive for myself if I let the other PCs do what they can before I step in (I may keep a scroll of knock handy, but any door that can be opened without using it is a door I won't use it on).
My characters are self-limited in countless ways outside of the mechanics however. This is virtually entirely a matter of fitting my character's personality. See, I try to have most of my characters act like real people. Strange as though it might sound, that generally means having mercy on enemies, not starting conflicts if possible, not stealing everything not nailed down, and so forth. By it's nature, choosing not to do something is a self-imposed limitation. As a fighter, as long as I had no repercussions from an authority (such as the law), I could cut down every NPC weaker than myself for the XP or the lulz. I don't, because that is not the character I want to play.
Oh, definitely. I'd almost call it selfish, but situations like this come up all the time:
"Eh, I could end this combat now by casting a powerful spell, but my friends can do it within a round or so, so I'll just cast a cantrip or whatever instead."
That sort of limitation is just good resource management, with maybe some added virtue for not caring who gets the glory.
And your other point seems to be about the dull, decent thing to do. We're no group of paladins, but our characters do have a sense of morality. Whether the players are concerned about dubious actions resulting in repercussions from the GM, or they roleplay that their character actually cares about such things, we do the right thing. Case in point:
Our group entered a 10 vs 10 competition and we teamed up with some NPCs to win the prize of 10k gold. After we had won, one of our NPC allies contracted something that turned him into a ghoul. We had to kill him, but we gave the NPC's family the 1k gold that would have gone to him.
Ooh, that's a good idea; I was thinking of asking my GM whether I could use a preparation ritual in my spellbook from UM, Harmful Surge.
Harmful Surge (Su):
You can maximize a spell, but doing so damages you. Spend this boon effect as a free action when you cast a wizard evocation spell. When you do, you can treat that spell as if it were cast with the Maximize Spell metamagic feat, but you take 1d4 points of damage × the level of the spell that you are maximizing. The damage you take cannot be reduced in any way.
Seems like the perfect ability to only use in a moment of desperation.
And add on empower and intensify for good measure! Those also seem great to keep in my back pocket for dramatic situations. Technically, with arcane thesis, it would make sense to add intensify every time I cast fireball, but I don't think I will, just like the barbarian who holds back his rage for something rage-worthy. :3
Random Aside:
Intensify should become relevant quite quickly; as early as level 7, since I have +2 to caster level from Spell Specialization and +2 to caster level from Arcane Thesis, so breaching the 10d6 cap will come soon after acquiring fireball. I wonder what I'll do with all this extra caster level when I get Spell Perfection (doubles to +8!) I guess overcome spell resistance. Maybe I'll research a greater intensify metamagic at some point. Ah, the joys of homebrew.
I think it's cute that this thread ended up revolving around Evokers. Who knew it was such a point of contention? Are Evokers as "God"-ly as Conjurers and Diviners? Well no, but to say the specialization sucks is just...
Having Played both a God Wizard and the Invincible Alchemist Mega Bomber I self limit reactively during combats and non-combat challenges.
for example as a god wizard its very easy to bypass non-combat challenges so as a rule I'd give others in the group a chance to come up with a non magic solution first before I jumped in with a spell to get around the problem.
As as a god wizard even though I could lock down 2/3 of a fight I didn't always to allow others in the group a chance to mark thier mark on the combat, I considered myself the groups ace in the hole if things were getting bad or we need a quick end to a fight then I'd pull out the broken stuff to get the job done quick.
For the Mega Bomber Alchemist who could throw a bajillion bombs per round and kill anything I relegated myself to using 1-3 at most per round often spread around the damage to soften up and debuff multiple targets to let others in the group take the glory. because honestly many of the fights I could have solo'd.
When you know how to make characters that punch far above their level you need to be mindful of the fact and make sure you give other people in the group their screen time as well. being awesome all the time is boring for everyone.
My wizard should be very good at solving out of combat problems, given a wizard cohort to help keep my spellbook full with a variety of spells, my ability to sacrifice unprepared spell slots to spontaneously cast spells* means I can easily leave slots open without worry of being caught unprepared for combat, and I'll eventually gain Fast Study for very much on the fly solutions.
*:
Well, uh, sacrificing unprepared spell slots to spontaneously cast is actually only found in Preferred Spell, not GSS. However, homebrew rules eliminated heighten and consolidated Preferred Spell into GSS, so you CAN use unprepared spell slots AND adding metamagic doesn't increase the casting time. Huzzah for homebrew!
So it's a solid point on the God wizard perhaps being too good with out of combat problems. I'll be mindful to wait until other options are exhausted before solving everything for the party.
...and I hear you on the alchemist. I've never played an alchemist, but my beleaguered GM I mentioned in my previous post wanted to play an gnome alchemist in another campaign, so I helped make one for him. Good gravy, going through my usual course of optimization, figuring out just how many bombs you could get per day, how much damage they could deal, and how many you could throw per round... Yeah, they've got a nova option like nobody's business.
I played a game that was ran by a new GM. He gave out a few very powerful items to our low level characters. He was still not sure how to balance the items to the levels etc. I spoke to the two other players durring our pizza break. We all agreed to limit our use of these items or in one case not to use it at all.
Some time later as the GM grew in undestanding of the game, he realized what we had done. He thanked us all and we "traded" in the artifacts for lesser items. The game was a lot of fun and the self limiting helped us grow as a group.
That sounds like a great group you have there, where the players are concerned whether the GM is having fun and vice versa.
I'm sometimes a little concerned about how our group's original GM treats one of our new GMs. (Not the GM of the campaign this thread is about, but another one) Besides me, he collaborated with the rest of the group so everyone had darkvision (All Aasimars and a min/max'd human synthesist) and spams darkness every round to blind the GM while the players can still see. Now I'm the elf who can't see in the dark. :P
Well it might not be meant as mean, but sheesh, take it easy on the poor guy. Not only is our new GM new to GMing, he's new to the group; while the rest of us have been playing for 5 years and known each other for even longer, our new GM joined us only about a year ago.
Sleet, that's not stated anywhere that I can find.
True, (at least I think so; this has come up in the past, so I wouldn't be surprised if a lead designer has spoken on this) but I believe it is in fact a 3rd level spell for Dark Tapestry Oracles. Just as an Oracle of Life gets mass heal as an 8th level spell.
Based on what you wrote in this and the other thread (42pt buy, no PC deaths, wealth, rerolls, etc.) it sounds like you haven't been playing "by the numbers" for years now. If your group has been able to deal with all of those things, why would this particular combo be so different then what can be pulled off using other character concepts? For example, direct damage (especially fire damage with a reflex save) is generally far less nasty then Hold, Dominate, Flesh to Stone, Blindness, etc.
Yeah, our group has generous power available to us, but rarely do our players make good use of it. I'd say there's only one other optimizer/strategist in the group and the rest have strong characters, (they have a concept, we sometimes help them do that concept better) but they don't push any limits on what people might call "broken."
When my fireball can overcome any SR with ease, can change to whatever element I want, can get a very high save, and can be focused, selective, piercing, intensified, persistent and dazing all with a 5th level spell? (Or a 3rd level spell if you have Spell Perfection) Yeah, that could be cause for concern if thrown at the start of every fight.
If all our players were min/max-ers who made threads in this forum asking for tips on how to make their character more broken, then sure, I'd have no qualms going all out. But our group isn't like that.
Fergie wrote:
As for intentionally limiting your power, I find that it takes an agreement up-front with the GM and other players. The more defined and understood the better. Otherwise, a player is going to feel betrayed when they have been deliberately holding back, only to be killed when the GM decides to throw in a more challenging encounter.
Reminds me of a campaign I played in years ago as a mid-high level wizard. In addition to 3.5 glitterdust, our group kind of stopped using the feeblemind spell as we felt it was a little too vicious. Sure enough, my wizard gets feebleminded by an opponent the GM wanted to be really nasty. Because of things like this, I felt that it was best to give the players a specific limited set of tools (feats, spells, classes, etc.) that they can use however they please, rather then giving them ALL the tools, but saying, "don't build anything too powerful with these."
I chose to take Arcane Thesis, which my GM graciously allowed me to use, and now as a courtesy to the rest of the group and my GM, I'm taking time in considering how I'm going to use this gift. I don't want combat to become all about me. Thanks to a couple ideas in this thread, I think I've found some fun ways to contribute to combat without just ending it AND without it seeming like I'm holding back the whole time. (Thanks to metamagic like my homebrew Break Spell, and also metamagic like Lingering Spell and Rime Spell.)
Alright, a homebrew feat with a subfeat have been developed! I can get both for 5k.
Break Spell:
Benefit: You may apply this metamagic only to a fireball spell:
You can break a spell, as if casting a weaker version multiple times.
A creature does not take any additional damage or suffer any effects beyond the first effect if an area is hit by more than one part of the Break Spell.
This feat has two modes:
Break - Break Spell splits into 2 mini spells or 6 micro spells of this spell. A Break Spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than it's actual level.
Big Break - Big Break Spell splits into 4 mini spells or 12 micro spells of this spell. A Big Break Spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than it's actual level.
These mini and micro spells are as described in Micro/Mini Spell, except are treated as a 3rd level spells and have a range of long.
Micro/Mini Spell:
Benefit: You may apply either form of this metamagic only to a fireball spell:
A micro spell is treated as a 1st level spell for all purposes, has a reduced range of close, a reduced radius of 5ft, and all variable damage becomes the minimum amount. (Ex. 6d6 becomes 6 damage) A micro spell uses up a spell slot two levels than the spell’s actual level.
A mini spell is treated as a 2nd level spell for all purposes, has a reduced range of medium, a reduced radius of 10ft, and all variable damage becomes 2. (Ex. 7d6 becomes 14 damage) A mini spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than the spell’s actual level.
Special: Micro/mini spell is not treated as a metamagic for the purpose of abilties that would reduce a spell’s slot when metamagic is applied, such as Magical Lineage.
May do a little more tweaking, but there you have it! Low damage, but massive flexibility and fun to be had when combining with other metamagic.
