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Elan

The Chort's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 734 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
I will completely skip them on my arcanist, I see little to no use for them.

If you're an Occultist Arcanist? Sure, it can be skipped easily enough. But if you're not an Occultist, it really pays to be able to spend Arcane Points instead of your spells to contribute to combat. You have far fewer spells per day than a Wizard or Sorcerer.

Spell slots level 5:

(Presuming 20 as casting stat)

Wizard:
6 1st level
4 2nd level
3 3rd level

Sorcerer:
8 1st level
5 2nd level

Arcanist:
6 1st level
4 2nd level

So 13 spells each to your 10.

Your spell diversity in combat is also inferior to the Sorcerer, generally.

Spells prepared/spells known at level 5:

Arcanist:
4 1st level prepared
2 2nd level prepared

Human Sorcerer:
7 1st level known
3 2nd level known

So it really is a nice perk to be able to not have to prepare blast spells, nor waste any spells per day on blasts. Hell, it may not even be a terrible idea to eventually take a 2nd blasting exploit with Extra Exploit, just to get around elemental resistances. (Level 7 or later)


the secret fire wrote:

Potent Magic makes the Arcanist, by default, the best SoS caster in the game, bar none. Counterspelling makes him the best against the scariest bad guys in the game, other casters. If Dimensional Slide can be used to escape grappling, which may well be the case (we'll wait for an FAQ on that one), the Arcanist is second only to the Teleport School Conjurer in terms of defensive/tactical movement ability, and the gap between him and 3rd place is huge. And that's just for starters.

The "few things" the class does better are quite potent, indeed.

First off, I want to apologize to you for becoming rude and snippy. It was 3am, you offended some of my sensibilities and I went on a warpath. Sorry about that. >_<

When I heard you wanting to ban the Arcanist from your games, I took the position of a whiny player caterwauling to his GM about losing his favorite toy. As I mentioned in my OP, I can't wait to play the Arcanist. Having played many a Wizard and Sorcerer and having seen someone else play an Arcanist I understood the weaknesses of this shiny new class, but want to embrace it all the same, because, as you've well noticed, it has some cool abilities. Do I think the class and its abilities are powerful? Well, yes. Do I think its powerful in such a way that it diminishes fun for surrounding players? Not so much.

I just don't see the Arcanist as a problem class. I would love seeing it at my table. It gives me nowhere near as much grief as other things I've encountered: Magus nova one-shotting bosses. Fey Kitsune Sorcerer spamming confusion, making the whole party wait while the monsters very slowly and boringly kill themselves. Crane Style users, before that was nerfed. An Oracle of Life altogether removing the fear of taking damage. Druid clogging up the battlefield with Animal Companion, Summons, and Cohort (Might reconsider my policy on Leadership for my next campaign) and bringing combat to a crawl. There's just so much out there that makes me grimace as a GM, it's hard to see why you singled out the Arcanist as the enemy of fun.

If some particularly feature of the Arcanist is just too destabilizing, perhaps just nerf one particular exploit. I just hate to see the death of a cool class.


the secret fire wrote:
The Chort wrote:
the secret fire wrote:
Of course a lot of people prefer the Arcanist's casting system (not his spell progression) to the Wizard's; it is strictly better. Saying that you prefer the system is like saying you prefer ten dollars to five.
That's borderline delusional; you must be reading the rules of the Arcanist without bothering to look at the numbers on the tables OR watch how a player actually runs one.

At this point, I can only suggest that you read for content. I specifically said that his spell progression is not as good as a wizard's. We were talking about the casting system, which incorporates the best of both of the core arcane casting classes. The point I was making wasn't terribly complex.

Quote:
The Arcanist's Quick Study is certainly a neat class feature, but honestly, a Wizard with Fast Study can accomplish much the same as an Arcanist. (Or a Wizard with an Arcane Bond. Or a Wizard with a few scrolls. Or...)

Fast Study is completely unusable in combat. If you have a full minute to look at your spellbook, you are not in any kind of combat that could be considered dangerous.

Bonded items and scrolls are both resource-intensive. They are not viable as default plans. You give up a familiar for the one (and get only one magic bullet per day), or gold for the other, and potentially lots of it if you plan on having a wide range of utility. Both of these are constraining factors on a wizard's ability to pull silver bullets out of his pocket. The Arcanist is not similarly constrained. Firing silver bullets can easily be his standard plan.

*apropos nothing, even if a 9th level Arcanist could cast the spell in the first place, which he cannot, why you would swap out for teleport and not feather fall in the above scenario is beyond me.*

... if you're wasting a Full Round Action and an Arcane Point in the middle of a combat to find a better spell... You're doing something wrong. As a full caster with metamagics and exploits at your disposal, and a reasonable diversity of spell preparation across your spell levels, you should have some kind of method to contribute to combat, although inefficient compared to "the best spell", that trumps wasting an entire turn. If you could Quick Study as a move action, I could understand outrage over such an ability. As it stands, it seems fine as one of the few things Arcanists can do better than other classes; out of combat versatility.

My theoretical 10th level Arcanist unrelated to your example can cast Teleport just fine.


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the secret fire wrote:
Of course a lot of people prefer the Arcanist's casting system (not his spell progression) to the Wizard's; it is strictly better. Saying that you prefer the system is like saying you prefer ten dollars to five.

That's borderline delusional; you must be reading the rules of the Arcanist without bothering to look at the numbers on the tables OR watch how a player actually runs one. The Arcanist's casting system isn't that great. In the heat of combat, (which is usually when a well timed spell matters most) the Arcanist is one of the least impressive casting classes. It has less versatility than a Sorcerer and fewer spells per day than any other full caster.

the secret fire wrote:
Solving the problem with the Arcanist took about as much thought as cooking a pot of coffee. The Wizard, on the other hand, actually had to do something clever with his resources, something that the players will remember much more than "ah, the Arcanist just spammed the spell we needed...like he always does."

The Arcanist's Quick Study is certainly a neat class feature, but honestly, a Wizard with Fast Study can accomplish much the same as an Arcanist. (Or a Wizard with an Arcane Bond. Or a Wizard with a few scrolls. Or...)

Quick Study is a sweet get out of jail free card, sort of like the Arcane Bond but perhaps usable a couple more times in a day. But remember, it often costs 2 arcane points per use. At level 10, for example, you prepared something like Wall of Stone or Icy Prison as your 5th level spell. (You only have one slot, remember.) Then you Quick Study to change to teleport. After you've teleported, you'll want to switch back to something you can use in combat. So 2 points, and you only have 3 + 1/2 your level in your pool each day. (8 points.) So then you'll have to start consuming spells just keep Quick Study usable. ...and you already have fewer spells per day than any other full caster.

Anyway, I say all that to say that although the Arcanist has a neat trick to pull out whatever spell he needs, it's not without a cost. It's also not that exceptional, when you consider scrolls and the Arcane Bond. And if you overuse Quick Study, you won't even make it through the 15 minute adventuring day, let alone a proper session.

It'll take a clever Arcanist to properly manage his resources, or he'll end up spending most of his day as a glorified commoner.


Gargs454 wrote:
Monk levels would (sorta) in that you would add your BAB from the two classes. The problem though is that MoMS gives up Flurry for Fuse Style. So in your scenario you'd only have 1 level in a class with Flurry.

I understood that that much would work, wasn't quite sure about getting the extra attacks.

Well, that's not completely terrible. You get Full BAB, get two-weapon fighting, BAB iterative attacks, you still get a Ki Pool to add an extra attack, maybe add in haste... A Warpriest 1/MoMS X wouldn't be completely gimped by this.


Apologies if this is a double post...?

Undone wrote:
The Chort wrote:
Undone wrote:
The word swift action prohibits anyone from using anything. One does not simply take swift actions on a WP.

That's why it's nice to have Combat Style Master so you can enter styles as a free action.

Although swift action management is part of the reason I want only 1 level dip of sacred fist war priest and go MoMS monk with the rest of my levels.

This does not progress flurry of blows and is highly suboptimal as a result.

Additionally that enables divine favor at 9th which gives you +4 to hit and damage, effectively cap level rage.

Huh, I perhaps mistakenly assumed something cheesy:

Sacred Fist Flurry:
Flurry of Blows (Ex)

At 1st level, a sacred fist can make a flurry of blows attack as a full-attack action. This ability works like the monk ability of the same name.

Monk Flurry:
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so, he may make on additional attack, taking a -2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to use this ability). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

I was thinking monk levels would still progress this monk ability?


Undone wrote:
The Chort wrote:
Undone wrote:
The word swift action prohibits anyone from using anything. One does not simply take swift actions on a WP.

That's why it's nice to have Combat Style Master so you can enter styles as a free action.

Although swift action management is part of the reason I want only 1 level dip of sacred fist war priest and go MoMS monk with the rest of my levels.

This does not progress flurry of blows and is highly suboptimal as a result.

Additionally that enables divine favor at 9th which gives you +4 to hit and damage, effectively cap level rage.

Huh, I perhaps mistakenly assumed something cheesy:

Sacred Fist Flurry:
Flurry of Blows (Ex)

At 1st level, a sacred fist can make a flurry of blows attack as a full-attack action. This ability works like the monk ability of the same name.

Monk Flurry:
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so, he may make on additional attack, taking a -2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to use this ability). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

I was thinking monk levels would still progress this monk ability?


Undone wrote:
The word swift action prohibits anyone from using anything. One does not simply take swift actions on a WP.

That's why it's nice to have Combat Style Master so you can enter styles as a free action.

Although swift action management is part of the reason I want only 1 level dip of sacred fist war priest and go MoMS monk with the rest of my levels.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I just looked up Sohei and MoMS, and Alex is correct. They both either change or substitute the "Bonus Feats" and "Flurry of Blows" class features, so they are not stackable.

I don't think this is true;

Here are the Bonus Feat and Flurry of blow replacements for the MoMS:

Quote:

Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat... This ability replaces a monk's standard bonus feats.

Fuse Style (Ex): At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style... This ability replaces flurry of blows.

I think the Sohei replaces neither of these, but I guess you could very stringently determine that these don't stack? I don't think you have any ground to say that Flurry of Blows was replaced, but you could make the case that both change Bonus Feats.

Quote:

Bonus Feats: A sohei may select mounted combat feats as bonus feats.

Weapon Training (Ex): At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon.

It doesn't help that the Sohei doesn't use the "This ability replaces a monk's standard bonus feats." or similar language to leave no doubt.


Freaking sweet; I've always wanted to find a way to make Master of Many Styles function, but it was just too weak on its own. I think 1 level dip of Sacred Fist Wapriest and the rest Master of Many Styles would be fun.

Janni Rush looks like its not worthless when combined with Pummeling Charge. Just read that Horn of the Criosphinx everyone's talking about. Yowza, that looks like strong stuff, if I'm reading that correctly.

So...

Warpriest Sacred Fist 1 - Pummeling Style
Warpriest 1/MoMS 1 - Pummeling Charge
Warpriest 1/MoMS 2 - Janni Style/Janni Rush

...and then find a few more combat styles to throw in there. 3 Styles? 4 Styles? Too bad you can never reach the capstone, but I suppose it was never that good to begin with. (With Combat Style Master, it's hard to imagine more than 4 styles running at once would accomplish anything.)

...and finally! That monk fast movement will work well with flurry of blows!


Marroar Gellantara wrote:
The Chort wrote:
So no, the sorcerer is not strictly inferior. Just different.
I disagree. Sorcerers function just fine (still fullcasters).

I go to great lengths to explain the merits of sorcerers; 'how they function just fine' and you... Disagree with me? O.o


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Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
I think people's issue with the Arcanist is that it is better than a sorcerer and a lot of people thought sorcerers were as strong as wizards, just like people think oracles are as strong as clerics.

People throw that around like its a fact; the Arcanist is better than the Sorcerer. Would I prefer to play an Arcanist over a Sorcerer at my next opportunity? Sure. But that doesn't mean the Sorcerer is de facto weaker.

Sorcerers have 2 additional spell slots per spell level. That's a lot of spells. The Sorcerer also has more spells known than an Arcanist has spells prepared, thanks to bloodline spells. And if you add in the human favored class bonus, you have a huge edge on in combat versatility, and your out of combat versatility isn't bad either.

And you still have some respectable class abilities; your bloodline, crossblooded and wildblood. Abilities as great as the Arcanist? Not at all, but you still have something.

So no, the sorcerer is not strictly inferior. Just different.


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Mystically Inclined wrote:

As someone who watched the Arcanist beta test threads and saw the "ZOMG Overp0wer3d" reaction, reading this thread and the 'yeah I won't be bothering with this class' comments make me laugh.

If people are saying that the Arcanist is just barely under the Wizard, and that the class has a "eh... some will take em, some won't" feel to it, then I think Paizo nailed things perfectly.

Thanks for responding to my OP. I was wondering if my message was getting lost; that the Arcanist is actually reasonably balanced. You get some sweet abilities that you can flexibly mix and match as you please, but it comes at a cost. (Inferior spell progression/spells per day, fewer spells prepared than spontaneous classes have spells known.)

I think someone else alluded that an Arcanist is a good introductory class for someone who's never played an arcane caster. It's like a caster that's not committed to any one way of doing magic.

1. Did you like schools of magic and having precisely the right spell for the occasion? Next time, try a wizard with Fast Study.

2. Did you like the flavor of bloodlines, enjoy using metamagic, but wish you had more spell slots? Next time, try a sorcerer.

3. Did you like alternating between casting spells and using non-spell abilities? Next time, try a witch.

The Arcanist is the ultimate generalist.


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the secret fire wrote:
Liam Warner wrote:
Do people think pearl or runestone would be more appropriate for an arcanist? Not thinking about the extra arcane pool exploit but simply using them as a wizard/sorcerer would to get an extra spell or two a day by expending the items power rather than the spell.
To be honest, I don't think this is entirely clear, either, though the consensus seems to be that the Arcanist should be treated as a spontaneous caster. The Arcanist both prepares spells, and casts them spontaneously. Strict RAW, he can probably use both items. I don't think this is actually a good idea, but it is yet another unclear aspect of how this class is meant to function in the game.

I'm fairly confident that they're treated as Spontaneous casters, it's just that they change what they can spontaneously cast each day.

Reading pearl of power, it makes no sense that Pearl of Power would function for an Arcanist.

Quote:
This seemingly normal pearl of average size and luster is a potent aid to all spellcasters who prepare spells (clerics, druids, rangers, paladins, and wizards). Once per day on command, a pearl of power enables the possessor to recall any one spell that she had prepared and then cast that day. The spell is then prepared again, just as if it had not been cast. The spell must be of a particular level, depending on the pearl.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
"Spells known" and "spells added to a spellbook" are not the same thing mechanically. The Human FCB adds the latter, not the former. So...that doesn't work at all.

Ah, I think you are right. Oh well, I guess just go for the Elf Favored Class bonus (Which has weaknesses of its own; it doesn't increase how many you gain daily.)

*double checks Arcane Reservoir text*

Quote:

Arcane Reservoir (Su)

An arcanist has an innate pool of magical energy that she can draw upon to fuel her arcanist exploits and enhance her spells. The arcanist's arcane reservoir can hold a maximum amount of magical energy equal to 3 + the arcanist's level. Each day, when preparing spells, the arcanist's arcane reservoir fills with raw magical energy, gaining a number of points equal to 3 + 1/2 her arcanist level. Any points she had from the previous day are lost. She can also regain these points through the consume spells class feature and some arcanist exploits. The arcane reservoir can never hold more points than the maximum amount noted above; points gained in excess of this total are lost.

Whoops, I was under the impression that even though you didn't regain your entire pool daily, you could stock up if you had leftovers from the previous day. The elf bonus is decidedly less shiny.

Hrmm. The halfling favored class bonus is starting to look good. Or maybe just bonus HP?


You also lose spells like Mirror Image, Invisibility, Phantom Steed, Haste, Slow, Pit Spells, Wall Spells... I think battlefield control in general is notably missing. Probably others things which I'm remiss not to mention?


K177Y C47 wrote:
Well the advantage of the Occultist is that it lacks the Stygma attatched to the Summoner and Master Summoner.

I suppose it's not that unheard of for the summoner to be banned in all its forms. Hopefully those same GMs won't ban this class or this archetype?


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Suichimo wrote:
The Chort wrote:

If you count school specializing for wizards, the comparison on even levels is this:

Level 6
Wizard - 4/4/4/3
Arcanist - 7/4/4/2

Arcanists cannot get extra spells per day from having a school:

1. The School Understanding exploit only gives you an ability from the school.
2. The School Savant archetype only gives you extra spells prepared, not extra spell slots.

Arcanists can, however get a Bonded Item. It's under the Bloodline Development exploit.

Quote:

...

If this ability is used to gain an arcane bond and a bonded item is selected, the arcanist can only use that item to cast spells of a level equal to the level of spell that could be

...

Now to see how many people continue to specialize and how many people take Exploits.

Yeah, that is why I crossed the school stuff out. I'd rather get the arcane bond through Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) since you should qualify for that easily enough. Sadly, I don't think you can take the Familiar exploit with this.

That's probably true; maybe go with Half-Elf for Skill Focus? Also, you'd have access to both the Human Favored Class Bonus and the Elf Favored Class Bonus, both of which I think are awesome.

Elf: Increase total number of points in the
arcanist’s arcane reservoir by 1.

Human: Add one spell from the arcanist spell list to the
arcanist’s spellbook. The spell must be at least 1 spell level
below the highest level the arcanist can cast.

So for the Elf FCB, I think I'd take it for the first three levels, maybe also level 5 and 7. The rest I'd take the human bonus. Why? If you look under Arcanist spellcasting, you find this interesting entry:

Quote:

Unlike the number of spells

she can cast per day, the number of spells an arcanist can
prepare each day is not affected by her Intelligence score.
Feats and other effects that modify the number of spells
known by a spellcaster instead affect the number of spells
an arcanist can prepare.

So from my understanding, that favored class bonus gives you extra spells prepared. Mind you, they're lower level slots, but that certainly adds some nice flexibility, just like the Human sorcerer bonus.


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Suichimo wrote:
Liam Warner wrote:

Minor quibble but on a purely personal note I don't like the fact you still need to memorize the spells each day. Sure you can cast any of them as long as you have spell slots remaining (or at 20th level arcane poolpoints) but I was under the impression once you memorized a spell it remained until you memorized a replacement rather than just fizzling away after 24 hours requiring you to rememorize it.

Not to mention the fewer spells and delayed casting I'm honestly losing a lot of interest in the arcanist class because of this.

You only have fewer spells per day, not counting items, than the Wizard on levels where it has a spell level over you. Take levels 6 and 7, for example:

Level 6
Wizard - 4/3/3/2
Arcanist - 7/4/4/2

Level 7
Wizard - 4/4/3/2/1
Arcanist - 7/4/4/3

Both of them can get a school specialization and a bonded item to allow for casting more spells throughout the day and both run off of the same casting stat for bonus spells.

Technically, the Arcanist doesn't even have fewer spells per day than the Wizard, it's just that at odd levels the Wizard has a higher level spell than you.

Edit: I'm not entirely sure why I thought they could get a bonded item through an exploit. They can only get the familiar. They can get it through a feat though.

If you count school specializing for wizards, the comparison on even levels is this:

Level 6
Wizard - 4/4/4/3
Arcanist - 7/4/4/2

Arcanists cannot get extra spells per day from having a school:

1. The School Understanding exploit only gives you an ability from the school.
2. The School Savant archetype only gives you extra spells prepared, not extra spell slots.

Arcanists can, however get a Bonded Item. It's under the Bloodline Development exploit.

Quote:

...

If this ability is used to gain an arcane bond and a bonded item is selected, the arcanist can only use that item to cast spells of a level equal to the level of spell that could be cast by her equivalent sorcerer level (limiting her to 1st level spells unless she spends a point from her arcane reservoir).


Suichimo wrote:
The Chort wrote:

I'm absolutely in love with the new Arcanist class. However, I've GM'd a game with one of my players playing an Arcanist and here's what's stood out to me:

1. Their spellcasting is okay. They can prepare the same amount of spells as spells known by a Sorcerer or Oracle, except they don't have any bonus bloodline/mystery/cure spells to broaden their on the fly versatility. Sure, there's Quick Study, but how often do you want to burn points and full round actions on that? I wouldn't even recommend Quick Study until probably 5th level or later, since you’re limited on resources at low levels.

Arcanists are prepared casters, shouldn't they be able to leave some slots open in the morning? And one thing I think you're missing in this point is that they have a library of spells available to them rather than only a few.

Eh... True, but for all practicality, no, you probably rarely leave slots open as an Arcanist. Lets look at 5th level spells at level 10:

A wizard has 4 slots; (At 20+ Int, assuming it's not 30?) he can choose to prepare 3 of them and leave the 4th open. Maybe for teleport or something. No big deal.

An Arcanist has 1 slot to prepare with. 1. True, you could leave it open, but you really shouldn't.

My thinking: Arcanists need to prepare all of their slots each day as though they were a Sorcerer and then use Quick Study to utility cast like a Wizard. I think you'll get more out of having as many spells as possible at your fingertips while in combat, since you have so few prepared slots.

Suichimo wrote:


Quote:
2. They have less spells per day. They have the fewest spells per day of any full caster and you feel it. No bonus School Slots and so on. However, they can somewhat make up for that, but more on that later...
School Savant solves this, on the even levels before 18.

School Savant does not give you extra spells per day. It gives you extra spells prepared. A nice benefit, but not quite the same.

If you want extra spells slots, you try Eldritch Font archetype, which while kind of cool, can be like being 2 levels behind a Wizard in casting your highest level spell.

Suichimo wrote:
Despite it being the most commonly resisted element in the game, I personally like Flame Arc. It doesn't have any debuffs tacked on, unless you get the greater version, but it has a very nice area of effect.

Hrmm, I sort of like it too, but it's a vastly different ability; things I'm considering:

You can reflex save to halve damage. Acid Jet always deals full damage so long as you can make the touch attack. Flame Arc might be more attractive if your Dex isn't great...

I'm unfamiliar with using line spells. Perhaps this actually is better than I suspect; I haven't practiced positioning a 30ft line and that could hit quite a few enemies. I mostly practice aiming fireball. =P

The Acid Jet debuff is nice. Sickened can put a nice cut in their combat potential and make it easier to land subsequent spells.

So... Hard to say. I like Acid Jet better and preparing a spell like fireball if I need area blast, but that's just preference.


The Occultist Archetype indeed does seem quite strong. Although part of me thinks that if I'm going to be a summoner, just go all in and play Master Summoner. On the other hand, it's a very powerful trick at very little cost (2 Exploits).

It also seems like a good option if you're going to completely dump Charisma and but still want a way to spend reservoir points to contribute to combat. (Acid Jet seems lackluster with 8 Charisma)

Another nice thing is that it helps the Arcanist match the Wizard with the "Flight by level 5" benchmark; summoning a large flying creature (Dire Bat) that lasts for 5 minutes.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Yeah, examining it, my conclusion is basically that they're on-par with Wizards (which makes them one of the most powerful classes there is, mind you). But not necessarily power creep per se.

I would still say Wizards have the edge, but its easy to make the case that the Arcanist is better at certain things, especially at certain levels. Here's my new tier for arcane full casters:

1. Wizard - Wizard is still king. They have more spells per day than the Arcanist, (even comparing at level 2 and subsequent even levels) but more importantly, they get to the next level of spells earlier. This isn't just a tremendous advantage in combat, but also benchmarks of utility, like being able to cast Fly at 5th level and Teleport at 9th level. That kind of power to override obstacles your GM puts in your way in addition to the sheer power of higher level spell slots cannot be made up for with a few shiny abilities.
2. Arcanist - I think the Arcanist edges out the sorcerer. They have many strong abilities, and importantly, all of your abilities aren't locked in at level 1 like when you choose a bloodline; you can mix and match whatever you want and even take Extra Arcanist Exploit.
3. Sorcerer - If you examine JUST the spellcasting of sorcerers, I'd say they're better casters than Arcanists. They have more spells known than spells you can prepare and they have more spells per day. However, Arcanist Exploits are enough to erase this edge that Sorcerers have.

But as you say, if there's a class that you can claim "It's kind of a toss up whether it's better than a Wizard" it's instantly a class worth looking into.


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I'm absolutely in love with the new Arcanist class. However, I've GM'd a game with one of my players playing an Arcanist and here's what's stood out to me:

1. Their spellcasting is okay. They can prepare the same amount of spells as spells known by a Sorcerer or Oracle, except they don't have any bonus bloodline/mystery/cure spells to broaden their on the fly versatility. Sure, there's Quick Study, but how often do you want to burn points and full round actions on that? I wouldn't even recommend Quick Study until probably 5th level or later, since you’re limited on resources at low levels.

2. They have less spells per day. They have the fewest spells per day of any full caster and you feel it. No bonus School Slots and so on. However, they can somewhat make up for that, but more on that later...

3. Being a level behind wizards is a really big deal. Just like with Sorc vs Wizard debates, a level 3 Arcanist vs a level 3 Wizard is no contest in terms of spellcasting, and the same holds at all odd levels. Although the Arcanist does have some nice abilities.

4. Abilities like Acid Jet are actually quite good, if you didn't dump Charisma. For a level 3 character, it's akin to more than doubling your spell slots for the day. Prepare some good first level spells like Grease and Color Spray and backing that up is quite the nasty little blast spell. A ranged touch attack dealing 2d6+Cha damage (2d6+3, in this case) and if they fail their save, sickening the target for d4 rounds is really quite a nice alternative to using spell slots, which you are lacking. It never becomes irrelevant, as the damage keeps scaling up, and the DC also scales with your level.

Obviously, campaigns aren't always stuck at level 3 and maybe some of the Arcanist's weaknesses will dissipate after a while, but those are my initial impressions of how they work in practice vs theorycraft “HOMG Arcanist is completely busted.” All that said, I've played my fair share of wizards (Which are still the strongest casting class) and can't wait to roll up an Arcanist. Lots of fun new stuff to try out!


With 10 new classes and a lot of archetypes, I'm wondering if anyone is inspired to try new multiclass characters?

A new favorite way to get into classes with very specific prereqs:
Mystic Theurge
Eldritch Knight
Arcane Trickster
Battle Herald
Mammoth Rider

Or how about new lead-ins to classes with more forgiving prereqs:
Golden Legionnaire
Duelist
Horizon Walker
Noble Scion

Any other multiclassing/prestige classing/1 level dipping that's got you excited?


pauljathome wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I heard it said that 12 ranks guarantees 100% success rate with any spell of 9th-level and lower.
I think thats "effectively" 100% chance. I think that very low rolls like all 1's still screw things up. So, "only" really a 99.99% chance :-)

That's correct; the largest number you can get out of 12 1's is:

(1+1+1)*(1+1+1)*(1+1+1)*(1+1+1) = 81

And the 2nd largest number you can create, is 72 so there are gaps in between... But yes, eventually you can hit anything, having rolled enough 1's.

Of course the chances of rolling 12 1's is 1 out of 2,176,782,336 so... yeah, you're still EXTREMELY likely to be able to come up with any amount when you have 12 ranks. Heck, you're extremely likely to succeed when you have 9 ranks.


Hrmm... Nope, I can't suggest much better than a Zen Archer Monk/Inquisitor gestalt if your goal is an awesome archer.


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Azten wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Like that matters if your sole intent is to troll the group.
If someone's intent is to troll the group, they are soon out of my group.

I play games with friends. Hopefully other people play games with friends too? I love everyone in my group. Certain people have weaknesses like terrible attention span outside battle, some are terrible at math, (Who should never, ever, ever use Sacred Geometry...) but all of them are committed to everyone having fun. Because we like each other. I also think it helps that we take turns GMing separate campaigns so everyone knows what its like to be GM? Not everyone has an active campaign, but everyone has done it at least once.


Ascalaphus wrote:

One of the slowdown factors is going to be proving to the GM that your math adds up. Every time.

---

If I run into any math buddies I'm going to ask them if there's a proof that with a sufficient number of dice you can always reach one of the three primes. I have a suspicion that's the case.

It gets tricky if you roll nothing but 1s (Which gets astronomically unlikely as the pool gets bigger) But even then, with 9 1s you're already reaching 27 (3 * 3 * 3) Obviously you'd whiff on that roll. But if you got up to a die pool of 20? I don't think you can ever miss it. Where it reaches the tipping point of "never whiff" I guess you'll need a proof?


Belafon wrote:

Chort, I can see that this would be fine in your hands. But a lot of other players aren't nearly as fast/good at math as you are. Off the top of my head I can name 4 PFS players and one person in my home game that just couldn't make these calculations in a reasonable time. (There's probably dozens more I see regularly that fall in that category.) Three of them are self-conscious enough to realize they shouldn't try to use this feat. But the other two - if they see someone else using it to good effect - are going to take it no matter what. Maybe 7 or 8 minutes later they are going to declare they have a correct solution. I'll take a look and find it to be wrong 75% of the time.

Hence the reason I said I wouldn't allow this without a time limit.

Agreed, and why I supported the idea of banning it in PFS. I would encourage also GMs in non PFS games to have strict terms for time limits, calculating it in advance, or just outright banning it in home games.

Whatever promotes efficient fun!


Ravingdork wrote:

When I first read this upon the arrival of my subscription materials, I too was stunned at the possibilities for power and game slow-down. I too wondered "who on earth wrote this feat?"

This feat appears to be tailor made to troll gaming groups. Imagine a player of a master summoner with two dozen minions on the field trying to do the math for his metamagic'd spells while also playing out the turns for two dozen minions he's summoned onto the battlefield. Every turn would eat up an hour of game time!

At first I thought "Busted for Summoners!" since they have more powerful spells at lower levels. Kind of like Spell Perfection. However, this feat's uses are somewhat hampered by:

"You can apply any number of metamagic effects to a single spell, provided you are able to cast spells of the modified spell's effective spell level."

Since they never can cast 7th, 8th, 9th level spells, they can never metamagic up to 7th, 8th, 9th.

Still, quite powerful for every class all the same.


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This is going to be somewhat difficult to explain in words how quickly you can see the patterns, but here's an example:

9 ranks in Engineering, attempting to cast effective level 5 spell. Prime numbers are 43, 47, 53

Here's my dice pool:

3 6s
2 5s
2 4s
1 3
1 2

Here's how I group it (After having thrown it many times, you'll know what kind of multiplication you're looking for instantly)

To get us in the ballpark 6*6 + 6 = 42.

Then group the remaining 6 dice:
5/5 = 1
4/4 = 1
3-2 = 1

So 42+1 * 1 * 1 = 43.


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Belafon wrote:
The Chort wrote:
Quote:
Chort, how many times have you failed to hit your number?
I have yet to fail. I must have thrown 50 times so far. Mind you, these have been pools of 8 or 9, so it might be trickier at a pool of 5. Although I've thrown that 5 times and still succeeded each time. It might be more difficult/time consuming if there was only 1 target number. But 3? Very easy.
Just to verify: you are using all your dice? Not discarding any?

I'm using all my dice. "Discarding" the remaining dice is a simple matter of matching similar numbers.

5/5 = 1
4-3 = 1
(6-4)-1 = 1

Then add/subtract/multiply 1's. It really goes very quickly.


Robert Young wrote:
The Chort wrote:


After some practice, I wouldn't be surprised if you could do it in ~30 seconds each turn. I've practiced several rolls of 9 and it's taken 15 to 20 seconds. And perhaps a sensible GM would allow you to roll before your turn starts?
Chort, how many times have you failed to hit your number?

I have yet to fail. I must have thrown 50 times so far. Mind you, these have been pools of 8 or 9. And it'll only get easier as you pool increases, and really shouldn't slow you down as long as you "match 1's".

...but it might be trickier at a pool of 5. Although I've thrown that 5 times and still succeeded each time. It might also be more difficult/time consuming if there was only 1 target number. But 3? Very easy.


Well, I would support banning it from PFS for time concerns.

However, it can actually go quite quickly if you're reasonably good at math and have practiced with the feat.

Let's say you roll 9 dice as a 9th level wizard trying to cast an effective level 5 spell. The prime numbers are 43, 47, 53. Usually you only need ~3 dice to get you in the ballpark of where you want to be, or even 2 dice (6 * 6) Then you fit in the rest of the dice. Which is often a simple matter of adding/subtracting back and forth, (+6, +3, -4. +4, -2...) or "making 1's" i.e.

6/6 = 1
5-4 = 1
2-1 = 1 (You can pair a 2 with a 1 at any time to remove it from your pool of dice)

Then you just multiply by 1 or add and subtract 1's until you get there.

After some practice, I wouldn't be surprised if you could do it in ~30 seconds each turn. I've practiced several rolls of 9 and it's taken 15 to 20 seconds. And perhaps a sensible GM would allow you to roll before your turn starts?


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Whoops, missed this line of text of the feat:

You can apply any number of metamagic effects to a single spell, provided you are able to cast spells of the modified spell's effective spell level.

That does limit it somewhat, but still very strong. Maybe makes Quicken a mediocre first choice, but you'll likely take it as you get into higher levels. (9th level at the earliest.)


Artemis Moonstar wrote:
The Chort wrote:
Artemis Moonstar wrote:

When this gets locked for going off topic, or we all get B#($^-slapped for derailing it... I'm all for a new thread to flesh these guys out... Funny, you'd never have expected the Druish to be so radical.

I throw my hat in for Greenwar or D.E.T.A. As long as DETA does more than run up to someone and throw a bucket of sap on them... Because that wouldn't work all that well depending on how cold it is.

Edit: Have you tried it with Calculating Mind gained at 5th level, Chort? Using d8s instead of d6s, or in any combination of the two.

...I would guess d8's would make this feat more difficult to use, strangely enough? As you get up in levels, you'll be glad to roll several 1's and d8s decrease your chance of that.

I suspected as much... The feat wouldn't be so horribly over powered, I think, if it scaled the dice size as you increased in level. Make it harder for you to hit those primes....

And are we sure that's how it works with Quicken? It says it negates the increased casting time, and it doesn't say it negates Quicken's decrease either... But perhaps it was intended to?

Edit: Oh look! Numerology!

You'll also be glad for lots of similar numbers for slight adjustments

i.e.

6-6 = 0
4/4 = 1
5-4 = 1

There are so many ways you can manipulate the numbers to reach your goal it becomes trivial as your ranks go up.


Artemis Moonstar wrote:

When this gets locked for going off topic, or we all get B#($^-slapped for derailing it... I'm all for a new thread to flesh these guys out... Funny, you'd never have expected the Druish to be so radical.

I throw my hat in for Greenwar or D.E.T.A. As long as DETA does more than run up to someone and throw a bucket of sap on them... Because that wouldn't work all that well depending on how cold it is.

Edit: Have you tried it with Calculating Mind gained at 5th level, Chort? Using d8s instead of d6s, or in any combination of the two.

...I would guess d8's would make this feat more difficult to use, strangely enough? As you get up in levels, you'll be glad to roll several 1's and d8s decrease your chance of that.


I've been practicing die rolls several times with the premise of using 8 ranks in Knowledge (Engineering) casting an effective 8th level spell. I haven't missed it yet after 10 attempts. It's extremely easy to multiply your way up to the number you need and then add subtract back and forth until you reach your goal. The more 1's you roll the better of course, because add 1, subtract 1, multiply by 1 makes it easy to make adjustments. And it gets all the easier as you get more ranks.

I'm imagining casting a Quickened Empowered Mirror Image. Or an Empowered Summon Monster. Or even a quickened empowered Magic Missile..

Quicken is essential; it means you can make a Sacred Geometry attempt and only ever risk losing you swift action, not your standard action.(...and free freaking Quicken. Sweet.) Empower just seemed like a flexible metamagic that can be applied to a lot of spells. Other good targets might be Persistent, Selective, Extend, Maximize, Dazing... On and on. And taking this feat more than once is worth it!

In other news, wildly overpowered feat that's somewhere between inspiring and infuriating.


Eoxyn wrote:
Arcane Discoveries can be taken in place of normal feats, similar to Masterpieces.

True, but you cannot take a feat in place of an Arcane Discovery, which I think is what Samasboy1 was getting at.

Between meeting Magaambyan Arcanist prereqs and getting the core summoning feats, you'll gladly look at a mediocre arcane discovery that improves summoning. There's not much else you could have done with the 5th level ability anyway. Metamagic is bad as a summoning specialist and Fast Study is redundant since you get it for free as a Magaambyan Arcanist class feature, so the list of decent options is thin.


♣♠Magic♦♥ wrote:

Remember that the deku in Majora's Mask could fly with his propeller thing and the butler with his umbrella.

If you want versatile seed examples use the seeds from Oracle of Seasons as a base.

At first when looking at the Oracle of Seasons seeds I wasn't too inspired, but after I spent some time on it, (Apparently a month?) something finally clicked; I attempted to infuse every +8 BAB monk move into a seed. (Elemental Fist, Punishing Kick, etc.) However, it would be quite powerful to have access to the same number of these as if I had the feats. (Several different pools of 1 seed/level) So I’m trying to balance how I gain access to them.

Scent Seed (Ex): When you hit a target with a scent seed, you gain the scent ability for the purposes of tracking the target hit. (All deku gain the scent ability?) This effect lasts for 10 minutes/level. If the attack misses the target by 5 or less, no damage is dealt, but this ability still functions. On one attack before the end of your next turn, you can make a Perfect Strike attack against the target. This Perfect Strike improves as a Zen Archer. (Roll 3 dice at level 10)

Ember Seed (Ex): This seed is treated as an unarmed strike modified by Elemental Fist. You can only deal fire damage. This Elemental Fist improves as a Monk of the Four Winds.

Gale Seed (Ex): This seed is treated as an unarmed strike modified by Punishing Kick. This Punishing Kick improves as a Hungry Ghost Monk.

Pegasus Seed (Ex): This seed is treated as an unarmed strike modified by Touch of Serenity. This Touch of Serenity improves as a Monk of the Lotus.

Mystery Seed (Ex): After making an attack roll with a mystery seed, but before results of the attack is revealed, roll a d6. Depending on the result, you could get one of 6 seeds:

1: Deku Nut
2: Scent Seed
3: Ember Seed
4: Gale Seed
5: Pegasus Seed
6: Tangle Seed

(I sort of want to rewrite this to include a “Mystery Seed only” effect; partly depends on how I implement all these seeds.)


It's on this page, if you do some digging:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html

Use the "Find" feature and search for "Difficult Terrain"

It's #6 of 17.


I think I'm going to draft up a compare and contrast of:

Wind Listener Void Wizard/Varisian Pilgrim Cleric vs. Arcane Sorcerer/Lore Oracle

And look at 3 points of comparison:

Level 2, 4, and 5. I won't be factoring in Eclectic Training for the sake of simplicity.

Level 2: What are you able to do with 1 level in each class?
Level 4: Wizard has 2nd level spells.
Level 5: Sorcerer now also has 2nd level spells. Cleric has 2nd level spells too.

...and break down other advantages, like having one casting stat vs 2, being able to dump Dexterity as a Charisma caster, Spontaneous Divination, Caravan Bond...


"Difficult Terrain" is not a generic catch-all phrase; it's referring to a specific thing. Grease, etc. is not Difficult Terrain by the Pathfinder definition of "Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement." Agile feet lets you treat those squares like 1 square of movement instead of 2.

Difficult Terrain:
Difficult terrain, such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs, hampers movement. Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement. Each diagonal move into a difficult terrain square counts as 3 squares. You can't run or charge across difficult terrain.

If you occupy squares with different kinds of terrain, you can move only as fast as the most difficult terrain you occupy will allow.

Flying and incorporeal creatures are not hampered by difficult terrain.


Gregory Connolly wrote:
I think coming at it from Sorcerer 2/ Oracle 1 might be better than Wizard 2/ Cleric 1. You only have one casting stat this way and do you really need 9th level divine spells?

I'm certainly considering that split, as it has several advantages. But I'm thinking being a Wind Listener (Sylph archetype) Void school wizard and a Varisian Pilgrim Cleric with Travel/Growth domains and Earth Channel will be a sweet mix too. Also, I have a generous point buy. Since I can dump Str and Cha quite easily, I think I can swing a very high Int and a reasonably high Wis.

Sarrah wrote:
Is fame per person or per group of adventurers? Is it possible to acquire 10 fame points by level 3?

I believe fame will be based upon your individual fame within that organization.

Chevalier83 wrote:
Actually, I'd rather take Magus / Cleric... you need 2 level of magus to gain spell strike and spell combat and you need magical lineage (Shocking Grasp). You can take Int / Wis and than use guided hand (feat) to add wis to hit.

An interesting thought, but not really what I had in mind.


Here's the race I have in mind at the moment. Bwahaha.

Ashen:
Aasimar Sylph Half-Elf Noble
People thought you couldn’t find a way to be more effete and refined than being an Aasimar or Elf or nobility? Well screw that! You’re the freaking kid of Arwen and Aragorn and then some.

My character's name will probably be Eldarion, at this rate...


So thanks to a generous GM, I have most everything I need to make an fantastic Mystic Theurge:

1.) Per the recent FAQ, I can enter Mystic Theurge at level 4 by using SLAs to meet the casting requirements.

2.) I have the latitude to create my own 20 RP race (With some oversight) But I should be able to meet the Mystic Theurge entry requirements easily with a couple racial SLAs.

3.) I have access to magic schools and guilds such that I can obtain Eclectic and eventually Esoteric Traing.

Eclectic/Esoteric Training:
Eclectic Training (5 Fame): Guilds often require members to master and train in different subjects. When your Fame score in a guild reaches 5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in—you increase your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to your total Hit Dice. Single-classed spellcasters should still pick a class to which this bonus applies, since this bonus is retroactive.

Esoteric Training (35 Fame): The bonus to caster level you gain from Eclectic Training increases to +3 (but is still limited by your total Hit Dice). You may select a second spellcasting class to gain a +1 bonus to effective caster level.

The plan is to go Wizard 2/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Magaambyan Arcanist 4/Loremaster 3 (Something like that?)

Now, what do I do with this? Part of me wants to just go full blaster; go Admixture wizard, Preferred Spell (Fireball), Magical Lineage (Fireball), Rime Spell, Dazing Spell, and just go to town. I have spell slots to burn, and I can spontaneously turn any of my spells into a cure spell or a fireball.

However, I was hoping for a different style of play since I've gone blaster before. ...any suggestions?

a) What kind of feats/traits would you take?

b) What would your daily preparation look like? How about using slots you leave empty?

c) How would you use scribe scroll?

d) If not fireball, what spell would you consider for Preferred Spell/Greater Spell Specialization? Spontaneous casting seems especially solid with the sheer quantity of spell slots.

e) How do you think it will play differently from a traditional single caster? (Roles inside AND outside of combat)


Excaliburproxy wrote:

Oh. If it counts as a natural attack, then I am willing to call it all copacetic.

For elemental fist: you might want to have a high-ish con and str so you can pick up dragon style and dragon's ferocity to get elemental fist earlier (and make it much better). That may not work out if you don't have a pretty impressive point buy, though.

I do have an impressive point buy; I think my stats at level 1 will be...

Str 6
Dex 16
Con 18
Int 16
Wis 21
Cha 6

I figure since Str isn't added to damage, I may as well dump it. Sure, it'll decrease my CMD, but eh. Hopefully I'll be able to keep a safe distance from my opponents, and I should still have a reasonable CMD thanks to my Monk AC/CMD boost.

I'll have a 15lb light load carrying capacity, but given I have no armor or weapons to haul around, I think that'll work okay.

As for Elemental Fist; if I wanted to, I could just say "At level 3 a zen deku gains Elemental Fist. A zen deku may treat seeds as if they were unarmed attacks for the purpose of Elemental Fist." I don't think I will, since my goal isn't necessary super competitive dpr, but just saying. I can design my own archetype. (Will require GM approval, but yeah)


Excaliburproxy wrote:

I worry that the deku seeds still do not compare favorably to a sling (a simple weapon that adds strength and has a range of 50 feet).

Tangle and smoke probably compensate for that maybe, though. Will the class give you any better seeds later? (something that deafens and dazzles maybe)

Can you enchant seeds like arrows?

Well, for damage at least the damage die is now d6. I also intend to have some minor wildshaping that will get me to a medium sized deku. (Seeds won't shrink like arrows from enlarge person) Also I'll eventually qualify for Improved Natural Attack. (I qualify by level 7) So if I wildshape and use the feat, my damage die will go from... d6 -> d8 -> 2d6. So eventually not so bad.

I could enchant seeds, I suppose, for bane seeds or something?

I would like for my class to give access to some more interesting seeds; although I haven't designed them yet. For starters, I'll be looking at Alchemist discoveries that modify bombs and monk special attacks for inspiration. (Elemental Fist & Touch of Serenity, for example. Oh, and qinggong powers)


I submitted some counter-offers to my GM/race designer and here's the Deku race we settled on. (Changes could still happen, but this should be about it.)

Deku:
Fey (includes low-light vision)
Normal Speed
Small size
Ability Scores: Standard (+2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha)
Standard Languages
Skill Traits: Camouflage (forest) +4 stealth in forest terrain
Defensive Traits: Natural Armor +1
Water Skipping : You can move across liquids, but if you end your turn on a liquid, you fall in.
Slow Fall: As an immediate action, Deku can flare their head-leaves outward to catch air and slow down when falling. This functions as an at-will feather fall, but can target only the Deku and has indefinite duration.

Deku Shooter: Deku can shoot seeds from their mouth. This is a ranged natural attack and does not provoke an attack of opportunity. These attacks do not add Strength to damage. The Deku Shooter is a masterwork weapon and can be enchanted as such.

Notes: You generate 2 + 2*level + Con modifier Deku seeds every day. You can load Deku seeds as part of an attack action. Deku seeds are available at 100 seeds for 1 rupee. Deku Shooter is a weapon with a range increment of 30ft. It deals d6 bludgeoning damage and crit is 20/x2

Special Seeds: You can create a variety of seeds. These seeds all deal damage as though one size category smaller.
Spiked: Deals piercing instead of bludgeoning
Flight: Increase range increment by 20ft
Smoke: Creates 10ft cube of smoke. (You can generate 1 Smoke seed instead of 3 normal seeds. Max 1 per day.)
Tangle: Creates 10ft radius, as entangle. DC is 10+1/2 level + Wis. (You can generate 1 Tangle seed instead of 5 normal seeds. Max 1 per day. This seed turns into a regular seed after 24 hours. Cannot be purchased.)

Building off this will produce something inferior to the traditional Zen Archer Monk, at least DPR-wise, but I think it'll be interesting and strong in other ways. The smoke and tangle seeds should be fun, and the Deku Nut (Stunning Fist in a seed) should be great. I'm looking forward to designing the rest of the class features.


Random Aside:
The race design was outsourced to someone other than the GM and he probably gave preferential treatment to certain races. Sheikah currently have a swift action, no dazing, dimension door "ninja poof" that they can use 1/level per day. 10ft range, but still. Little bit more powerful than the Deku 1/level per day Seed Shot.

Those are some good points about trying to keep competitive with damage. Although I'm okay falling behind the standard ZAM in damage if I get some added versatility. (Like Stunning Fist at range, minor wildshape, other debuffs, battlefield control, etc.) ...but I at least should be able to upgrade my ranged weapon. And I'll think about requesting strength to damage.

Perhaps all Deku begin with a "masterwork" Deku shooter? (Mouth) I believe my GM was planning us on having us bring our rupees to his GMNPC in town to upgrade our equipment. So I imagine he'd allow a similar thing for my Deku: Bring him 2000gp, now you have a +1 Deku shooter! Maybe accompanied by a shiny fairy fountain-esque cut scene.

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