I'm starting a homebrew sandbox campaign and a number of my players have some cool concepts for characters that sound like they'd be weak mechanically.
Primarily, I'd like to design archetypes for the Druid and the Bard to more easily enable their concepts. The party is big enough that it's okay for them to be weaker, but as a GM wanting to see everyone filling their role as they imagined, I'd like to help. They don't have an optimizing bone in their bodies, but they do enjoy the benefits of a good build. (They've asked me to help optimize their characters in the past)
Beyond that, I'm totally feeling generous with my players and wouldn't mind tossing out freebies; hopefully freebies that won't dramatically individually warp their combat abilities, but I'm not too afraid of that either. Things like extra skill points, stealthy abilities, improved crafting and more.
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The druid sounds like a typical caster druid...and there is nothing wrong with that. Funny enough these kind of druids use the menhir savant archetype most of time , which is often considered a solid or better option than the regular druid. Caster druid just happen to be weak early but get much stronger than melee druid later on.
Classic support bard...its the vanilla bard, nothing needs to be done.
Now, really it depends, is there like a special ability that they are looking for? Because so far, don't think that I see anything unusual that they want to be doing.
Some additional points:
It's something of a Kingmaker campaign of my design, and it'll eventually use Mythic rules.
The Bard and the Druid don't seem interested in contributing to combat with traditional weapons. The Bard would like to be exceptional at buffing, and I'm thinking maybe a blasty ability would be good for the Druid. An Int-based ability, preferably. I want to find something for them that'd allow them to consistently contribute something to combat.
For the Bard, Inspire Courage, maybe a single buff spell, then what? For the Druid, cast a spell or two, then what? Do they wait for combat to end? I'd still like for them to have something to do. Like maybe an Arcanist exploit blast ability.
Some off the cuff ideas, no pretense of balance to them. Allow a couple more class skills and/or skill points in place of weapon proficencies. The wild whisperer in ACG might be good for the druid.
Some off the cuff ideas, no pretense of balance to them. Allow a couple more class skills and/or skill points in place of weapon proficencies. The wild whisperer in ACG might be good for the druid.
I was certainly considering that Archetype for her, since it would give her something for having a high Int score. Not a lot, but something.
The druid sounds like a typical caster druid...and there is nothing wrong with that. Funny enough these kind of druids use the menhir savant archetype most of time , which is often considered a solid or better option than the regular druid. Caster druid just happen to be weak early but get much stronger than melee druid later on.
Classic support bard...its the vanilla bard, nothing needs to be done.
Now, really it depends, is there like a special ability that they are looking for? Because so far, don't think that I see anything unusual that they want to be doing.
Well the druid is a little odd in that she's opting for the animal companion, despite the focus on casting. So I'm concerned she won't have enough spell slots or any other class abilities to use her standard actions on.
Most bards I've seen have had some kind of combat ability; bruisers with 18 Str 2 handing a falcata, or archery or something. But I guess pure support is an option. I'm not sure how much better she'll be at buffing by forgoing melee, so that's what makes me nervous.
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Bards can do anything that's the thing tho...frankly you worry too much. One of my friends did play a full support bard like that and still tell me that it is his favorite character ever.
As for the druid even for caster druid, would still recommend to get an animal companion, just to have an additional body is more than enough and the animal companion could provide flanking to the other melee people in the group. Domain while nice and all...aren't really that useful to the druid.
Thanks for the feedback. I'll give them some advice on archetypes that could go well with their concept, but otherwise let the players figure it out themselves. If they ask for help with their build even after the campaign starts, I'll work with them.
Your druid sounds like they mixed up druid and wizard.
I would say play a wizard with knowledge(dungeoneering) and knowledge (engineering).
Why exactly are the interested in the druid class at all? Because it doesn't fit anything they are suggesting.
Your druid sounds like they mixed up druid and wizard.
I would say play a wizard with knowledge(dungeoneering) and knowledge (engineering).
Why exactly are the interested in the druid class at all? Because it doesn't fit anything they are suggesting.
I Think they also wanted the animal companion. Which is the druids thing.
Is the mechanics of an animal companion necessary or is an animal friend (in the form of a familiar) acceptable?
Plus there are other ways to get animal companions.
Nature Soul --> Animal Ally --> Boon Companion (if desired) can do the job
Your druid sounds like they mixed up druid and wizard.
I would say play a wizard with knowledge(dungeoneering) and knowledge (engineering).
Why exactly are the interested in the druid class at all? Because it doesn't fit anything they are suggesting.
I had the exact same thought, I'll be sure to ask her "why druid?", and advise accordingly. (Will it be easier to modify a druid or a wizard to suit what she has in mind?)
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Show the bard
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b1hq_xhfCFjtAyjJMKrdtxRbtDEC1kNm6ZYfvS6 HqIw/edit?pli=1
...
This is a broken non-link. It's easy to make this work. Type the following, without the spaces:
[ u r l = " https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b1hq_xhfCFjtAyjJMKrdtxRbtDEC1kNm6ZYfvS6HqIw/edit " ]Guide to the Buffer Bard[ / u r l]
This is the result:
Easy!
I would get the Druid to reroll as a Shaman. Pick the class features that let them cast arcane spells as divine spells and give them the higher INT (forget the name). It will reflect the bookworm character aspect. It allows them to discard shapeshifting and get hexes in exchange. As a hybrid class it gets elements of the druid class that suit your needs far, far better IMHO.
High wisdom + High Intelligence...might I just suggest a Shaman with the Lore spirit?
She will be able to use arcane enlightenment, where she gets arcane spells equal to her intelligence modifiers + she uses wisdom for her other spells.
Skipped this one. But yes.
There's a prestige class for a wizard who wants a little druidic magic - the Magaambyan Arcanist. I'd take that and call it a day.
I had the exact same thought, I'll be sure to ask her "why druid?", and advise accordingly. (Will it be easier to modify a druid or a wizard to suit what she has in mind?)Your druid sounds like they mixed up druid and wizard.
I would say play a wizard with knowledge(dungeoneering) and knowledge (engineering).
Why exactly are the interested in the druid class at all? Because it doesn't fit anything they are suggesting.
Based on your post of "wants to be very intelligent, reads a lot of books, and is fascinated with ruins. Or runes? Maybe both. She has no interest in being a frontliner/using wildshape, etc and would like to cast from the back row." you've described a wizard with a fascination for ruins and runes. That's pretty much all wizard, no modification needed. The skills I mentioned can represent the knowledge about ruins, and runes would fall under knowledge arcana, with a side of spells that involve runes (which are primarily arcane spells).
Druid:
I see several options.
- druid with the nature fang archetype. It gets rid of wildshape and his studied targets have a higher save DC against the druid's spells.
- Wood or earth wizard worshipping a nature deity. Has a familiar instead of a companion. Give him bleliever's boon for some nature domain stuff.
- Hunter. A little less casty (only 6th level) but good spells because of early access from the ranger list.
- Cleric with the animal domain
For the bard
Either wave or change to a different reputation the Kitharodian Academy TPA requirement if it does not exist in your game.
Also the FCB for aasimar bards is amazing.
The inspire courage buff will be huge, and by pumping charisma bard spells stay relevant for a while.
For the bard
Either wave or change to a different reputation the Kitharodian Academy TPA requirement if it does not exist in your game.
Also the FCB for aasimar bards is amazing.
The inspire courage buff will be huge, and by pumping charisma bard spells stay relevant for a while.
Yeah, those feats are awesome. They apply to ALL performances? From the way that bard buffing guide mentioned them, it sounded like it only applied to one (Pick Inspire Courage), which would honestly still be worth it, but all is better.
I was intending to use Magic School system for my game, so I think I could use some sort of performing art school to fulfill the reputation requirement.
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I must say I like your approach to looking after your players and trying to ensure they are having fun.
On creating archetypes for players with sub-optimal ideas, its a reasonable idea, but less challenging than creating archetypes for players with sub-optimal minds. That can be really challenging.
I must say I like your approach to looking after your players and trying to ensure they are having fun.
On creating archetypes for players with sub-optimal ideas, its a reasonable idea, but less challenging than creating archetypes for players with sub-optimal minds. That can be really challenging.
That's nice of you to say! I guess I've just been shaped by being in a group where we have an even-split of optimizers and non-optimizers. Players with system mastery shined. To help balance things out, rather than restrict/restrain anyone, we work together during character creation. Non-optimizers explain the concept of the character they'd like to play, optimizers look into it and list some of the strongest mechanical options to accomplish their concept.
Similar to how I just researched the support bard. Well, this time the forums researched the support bard for me and explained how it can be viable. Now I'll let the player know about possible builds to choose from and awesome feats like Master Performer that will enhance her concept.
Now to find out what my druid player wants. (Or is it a wizard player?) When I find that out, I'll advise accordingly.
This is the result:
Easy!
Thanks for the fix! Glad this guide was pointed out.
I would get the Druid to reroll as a Shaman.
It's certainly another good possibility. Most players don't have a character sheet yet, so less of a reroll than create her character to begin with. :)
There's a prestige class for a wizard who wants a little druidic magic - the Magaambyan Arcanist. I'd take that and call it a day.
I considered this, but I have a sneaking suspicion my player is not choosing druid because she's enamored with the spell list. (I'm not sure she knows the difference between the two, other than one is more nature-themed) Still, this may yet fill the concept she's after.
Druid:
I see several options.
- druid with the nature fang archetype. It gets rid of wildshape and his studied targets have a higher save DC against the druid's spells.
- Wood or earth wizard worshipping a nature deity. Has a familiar instead of a companion. Give him bleliever's boon for some nature domain stuff.
- Hunter. A little less casty (only 6th level) but good spells because of early access from the ranger list.
- Cleric with the animal domain
Something I was looking at was Druid with Animal/Feather domain and just take Boon Companion. Seems like a strong and even somewhat flavorful option for the druid with her Roc companion.
If the druid just wanted an animal companion, maybe going as a wizard instead and picking the familiar (be sure to check out the familiar archetypes). A wood school wizard might otherwise be "druid"-y enough. Maybe checking out witch instead (still gets a familiar and has a lot more "nature" feel to it)
A familiar with an archetype may fit the bill; I'll have to ask. As for a Witch, considering we have another Witch in the party who also happens to be her brother in game and that she'd prefer to be mechanically different... She probably wouldn't go for it.
Just an update:
The Druid has decided to instead become a Void Wizard. (Glad I asked "Why druid?") I'll still need to walk her through some spellcasting tips to get her on a strong footing.
The Bard has taken the tips from the buffer guide to heart and will be a phenomenal buffer. Also, she opted for the Duettist archetype, so she has a performing familiar now.
The Witch is now a Lore Shaman, oddly enough. Too bad about the loss of the potential of sharing spellbook/familiar spells, but very happy to have a full Divine caster on board.
The Swashbuckler is going for the Inspired Blade archetype, allowing her to dominate with a rapier.
The Synthesist... Not really sure what he's up to. I'll discuss his character with him closer to when my campaign starts.