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Raegos

Ravingdork's page

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 17,299 posts (17,833 including aliases). 1 review. 2 lists. 1 wishlist. 1 Pathfinder Society character. 8 aliases.


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James Risner wrote:
You can have things in an Intelligent item that you couldn't have in a non-Intelligent item.

Like what?


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Baleful polymorph appears as a curse in the Core Rulebook glossary under afflictions, which is why I think people are saying it needs a break enchantment or remove curse spell (that, or they've been mislead by unannounced house rules). That particular section even goes so far as to state, "Curses can be cured through magic, however, usually via spells such as remove curse and break enchantment."

I strongly suspect those people are mistaken, however, as baleful polymorph does not carry the curse descriptor presented in Ultimate Magic (and also, because it would imply a static save DC, which obviously isn't the case).

It is far more likely that the intent of the rules is that baleful polymorph can be dispelled as easily as any other ongoing spell effect and that the specific curse listed in the Core Rulebook glossary is for things like disturbing a cursed tomb, setting off a witch's trap or some other storyline-based hazard.


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Elicoor wrote:

And for my question about the studded leather being officially metal armor or not, in regards to special materials? Please only answer using official sources, as my DM only accepts them.

(My DM has finally ruled it would apply exactly the same for the silken ceremonial as both armors are studded almost the same way)

There is a table in one of the books, though I don't recall which one, that lists all the armor and weapons that were published at that time, and specifically calls out which ones are made of wood or metal for the purposes of qualifying for special materials.

EDIT: Ninja'd by those more knowledgeable than I.


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Below are a few excerpts from my "Weaponizing Stone Shape" thread.

Right here, is a geometry tool that I created to help me determine what shapes, sizes, and numbers I can get away with. It is one of many tools you can find in my Crazy Character Emporium's archive.

Ravingdork wrote:

DISCLAIMER: I know some of these are cheesy and may not be allowed by certain anal GMs. What of it? :P

Since I am playing an earth-themed spellcaster (aka an earth bender), I'm looking for advice on rules-legal ways to weaponize the stone shape spell, or to at least make it really awesome outside of combat.

I did some mathematical calculations and, as a 5th-level cleric or druid, I can manipulate 15 cubic feet of stone.

Some ideas that I had were as follows:

- Create spikes...big spikes...under enemies...impaling them. With 15 cubic feet I could create 45 right cones, each 5 feet long with a 3 inch radius at their base (if I did my math correctly). By reducing the radius, I can create well over a hundred spikes (albeit more fragile ones). At later levels, I could potentially impale small armies numbering in the hundreds.

- Prepare an action to create the above spikes (facing at an angle from the ground) when the enemy charges you and your friends so that they impale themselves.

- Touch a stone tower or similar structure and reshape a diagonal sliver out of it (moving it somewhere else in the tower) effectively cleaving the tower in half causing the top half to slide off the bottom half. I haven't done the math, but considering towers are rarely solid and I would only need to move a 1/2" x W' x D' or so, I should be able to pull this off even at low levels.

- Similar to the spike trick above, but the objective is to trap the victim(s) rather than to harm them. Simply have the cones spring up all around them thereby restricting their movement and making them helpless.

- Reshape a wall or ceiling into small spheres causing it to collapse on people standing nearby. Since I am not so much "turning the stone into spheres" as much as I am "reshaping/moving the stone from all the spaces BETWEEN the spheres," I can affect a surprisingly large amount of ceiling/wall this way.

- A combination of the above tricks: Instead of shaping a section of ceiling, shape them into cone spikes, then move a sliver of stone from their base causing them to fall on people below. I have no idea how much volume it would take to do that though...

- Cause a door in a stone frame to become blocked by stone cross bars in order to stop an enemy pursuit dead in its tracks.

- Seal a stone sarcophagi so that the horrible undead can't escape.

- Open a narrow passage (such as a door or series of murder holes) through a stone wall.

- Create a series of crude HOLLOW humanoid statues (I estimate about 1 per 5 cubic feet) to trick far off enemies or something.

- Create a mundane object such as thin slabs in the shape of a tent or shelter, or create a narrow bridge over a small chasm, or make a goblet or bowl for holding liquids or food.

- Encasing your opponent in stone. About an inch thick layer of stone formed snugly over a creature's body will absolutely keep them from moving. A minor variation would be cement boots. It takes, what, 1 cubic foot of stone to totally encase a medium creature's foot and root it to the ground? So when I initially pick up this spell I can root as many as 15 medium creatures to the earth (one stuck foot each).


The inner voice within your ear
Maermana wrote:
That's...really confusing. Do you always get a +10 bonus for using/working the business for types of capital if the PC is involved? Where was that section? (Lots of rules and complexities.)

You can find it under "Running a Business" in the "Downtime Activities" section of the Downtime rules.

Here's the relevant rules quote:

If you have a building and that building generates any kind of capital, you can spend 1 day of downtime working at your building—increasing its productivity by inspiring your employees to work harder, using your expertise to get more done, or using your fame to attract more customers. This counts as using downtime to earn capital (see Gaining Capital), but you gain a +10 bonus on your check.

The capital you generate must be a kind that your building can generate. For example, an inn that generates gp and Influence can generate only those two currencies using this downtime activity; you can't use it to generate Goods, Labor, or Magic just because you're personally running it for the day. You must earn capital acquired in this way as normal.

If you mosy on over to the Rooms and Teams section of the Downtime rules, look under the Reading a Unit Stat Block header, 5th paragraph. It says the following:

If you have multiple buildings or organizations in a settlement and they can generate the same kind of capital, you don't have to roll for them separately—you may add all their capital modifiers together and attempt one check for that kind of capital. If you spend a downtime day earning capital on your own, you may add your building and organization bonuses to your roll instead of rolling separately for yourself and each of your businesses or organizations.

So now we know that you can combine your building's modifiers with your own, on top of the +10 bonus for simply being present. That's the method I was showing you in my examples of my previous post.

Despite what the rules recommend though, I'd suggest NOT combining rolls whenever possible. After all, with each additional roll you make, you get +1d20 added to your results (or 10, if you took 10), allowing you to earn more capital. I prefer to take 10 on everything to avoid the headache of math. If you're no fan of the paperwork and that is still too much hassle for you though, then keep to the guidelines shown above, add everything together, and take 10 for one easy calculation.

Please read the links I've posted as the quoted portions above are only small segments of the larger rule set.

Maermana wrote:
Also, I thought there was a mention of being able to use downtime while ruling?

If you scroll up after clicking the first link above, you will find the Lead a Kingdom downtime activity, which says the following:

If you are using the kingdom-building rules and have a leadership role in the kingdom, you must spend 7 days per month performing various leadership duties. In the downtime system, performing leadership duties for a day costs 1 day of downtime. You can't perform any other downtime activities on a day you perform kingdom leadership duties.

However, our GM has house-ruled that you can earn Influence while ruling. Neither the rule above nor the house rule prevents your businesses from earning capital for you while you are away (whether you are ruling or adventuring). Don't ever let a single day go to waste when it could be earning you capital!

Maermana wrote:
I didn't know there was a taxation rule, pretty much means there is no benefit/bonus at all from Aer's business/shop yet..the scriptorium alone only provides a +5 bonus.

The taxation penalty is another house rule from our GM. You can find the details for it on our Campaign Info Page under the header, "House Rules."

Maermana wrote:
Ugh, will have to re-do the whole thing and won't have time until sometime this weekend for that.

Don't feel bad. I find that I have to do mine two or three times every month just to make sure everything is as accurate as I can possibly make it (it seems I'm always forgetting something and have to readjust). It's one of the reasons why I would like to get rid of taxes next month. It's one less rule to worry about in an already complex system and our Kingdom is in a strong enough position that we can do without them altogether (the end result being -2 Economy and +3 Loyalty).


The inner voice within your ear

Also, feel free to revise your calendar entries to include more capital gains now that you have a little extra money, Maermana. Not much point in wasting half the month earning that pocket change when you already have some dough.

I also noticed you were apparently earning non-influence capital while ruling. Your character can't do that personally (you're too busy ruling), though you can have a business earning it for you while you rule (you won't be able to add your character's bonuses to the modifier though).

For example, if my character Riva wants to earn Magic Capital while she is ruling, she can use her library's +44 magic modifier. If the library takes 10, that's 54, or 5 Magic Capital each day (rounded down). If you have hired a manager, you can even use their skill modifier (typically +8), though their pay cut can really bleed your earnings.

Now, if Riva were to spend a day personally working at her library, whipping her employees into shape, then she could add her own skill modifier (+18) to that. What's more, she gets a +10 bonus just for being there (employees work harder when the boss is around. If she takes 10 on her check to get Magic Capital, then she gets a total of 82 (10 + 10 + 18 + 44), or 8 Magic Capital a day.

In either case, she can't make use of the capital until she pays the earned cost for it (that's why some of my calendar entries have asterisks, to denote what Riva has already payed for and what she hasn't).

Don't forget to apply a -5 penalty to all your businesses' checks to earn capital, to account for the GM's tax house rule (as far as I know, this doesn't apply to checks made to earn capital by yourself). I plan on getting rid of taxes at the start of Kuthona though, so we won't have to live with that penalty much longer. :D


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Hogwash I say.


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(I'm generally wielding a bow rather than a polearm.)


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The whirlwind form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if the creature enters the space another creature occupies.


The inner voice within your ear

Mallichatti, Maermana, you both need to catch up on your calendar entries. Try to finish up the month of Neth if you can. If you need help with it, just let me know.


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I'd recommend Destructive Dispel and Dispel Synergy, as your last two feats if you don't already have them. They help to make a successful dispel all the more punishing.


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Make sure you meet the feat prerequisites for everything. Spell Perfection alone requires three metamagic feats and 15 ranks in Spellcraft.

I think I doubled the bonus from Lore Seeker since it was acquired through the Additional Traits feat. (You may want to check with your GM though, as he might not interpret it the same way.)

Bad guy: Hahaha! Your pitiful servants cannot hope to overcome my defenses!

Master summoner/dispeller: Oh? *Dispels defenses*

Bad Guy: What!? No! How could-- *much gnashing of teeth, tearing of flesh, and high-pitched screaming ensues*

:D


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thejeff wrote:
Protoman wrote:
If it's a continuous effect, how do you change the appearance the hat of disguise is granting?
Take it off and put it back on?

This is actually how I've always interpreted it. There's something to be said for someone able to change identities like others change hats. ;P


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The Human Diversion wrote:

One of my favorite uses for quickened true strike:

Wizard 12, Arcane Archer 2, use Arcane Archer "imbue arrow" to put antimagic field on your arrow and shoot it at a caster.

No save, no SR, no magic happening around that caster.

Still defeated by a wind wall.


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I've played variations of my witch, Hama, and my conman, Nives, and my trick fighter, Marcellano, a couple of times apiece. Everything else has been unique one-time experiences though. It may also help to know that all three of those characters died before I could really get a feel for them, someone necessitating my playing them a second time.


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Senko wrote:
The problem with magical lineage is that its only ONE spell which leaves a lot of room to go wrong and waste it.

If you take the Additional Traits feat to get it, you can retrain the spell choice with the retraining rules. :D


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Technically, there's nothing stopping him from passing over them multiple times with the same move action, forcing so many saves that they can't possibly pass them all.

My players have done this to devastating effect against mobs of weaker enemies.


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My abjurer chose greater dispelling for his Spell Perfection feat. The doubling of feat bonuses are HUGE when they grant caster level bonuses. He can dispel people's effects as though he were THIRTEEN levels higher, possibly FIFTEEN! All thanks to Spell Perfection.


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Calth wrote:
jimibones83 wrote:

Initiative is not character knowledge. Your argument uses it to determine character actions, which is not how the game works.

I don't blame them for killing the demon outright, nor are they penalized in any way. In fact, I thought it showing up with a sword in it's hand was a great reason to immediately kill it. So did they, until they found out ooc that it wanted to help them. Then they thought it was unfair. So to sum it up, they made a decision using ooc knowledge, then acted as if they should have been able to act differently based on more ooc knowledge. I find the absurdity of that to be pretty funny.

How Combat Works

Combat is cyclical; everybody acts in turn in a regular cycle of rounds. Combat follows this sequence:

1. When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.

2. Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.

3. After the surprise round (if any), all combatants are ready to being the first normal round of combat.

4. Combatants act in initiative order (highest to lowest).

5. When everyone has had a turn, the next round begins with the combatant with the highest initiative, and steps 4 and 5 repeat until combat ends.

You keep claiming player knowledge, but initiative is both player and character knowledge. Telling players to roll initiative is explicitly telling them a combat has begun, as that is the only time initiative is rolled. You are telling them the creature has begun attacking them, as that is what an initiative check means in pathfinder. Initiative is literally the measure of how fast the characters react to the attack.

This. You aren't supposed to roll initiative unless combat has begun. Them's the rules.


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For me, it's the "reveal" of a spellcaster who turns out to be far more powerful than is initially assumed by their enemies.

The venerable and helpless crone who overpowers the mighty warrior, disarming him of his own sword and impaling him upon it. Or the simple forest hermit who transforms into a horrible monster and suddenly bites the storm giant in half. Or the little halfling girl who petrifies a demigod. Or the bent-backed wizard with stronger melee might than many of the world's strongest warriors.


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There are specialty healing salves you can use for when the flaking feels like its getting that bad. Maybe see a dermatologist?


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I would very much like to get clarification and, if possible, actual change for this item as well. FAQ'd.


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To be clear, weapons do NOT take up a slot. Magical item slots are clearly established within the rules.


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Isn't that "1.5 x cost" for multiple abilities rule only really there for slotted items, like headbands and rings?


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HangarFlying wrote:
Just a Mort wrote:


Lets assume our shadow has been hiding in the wall. It's up to gm fiat if you're considered denied dex. In which you just wasted a standard action doing nothing.
Perhaps I've misread something, but I'm not seeing what would deny a character's DEX bonus by having a shadow be in a wall. Incorporeal /= invisible.

But you can hide as part of movement (such as that being used to disappear into the pillar), and being in a pillar breaks line of sight, effectively granting total concealment, which allows one to hide quite effectively.

My incorporeal creatures usually ignore a PCs' Dexterity and Dodge bonuses as a result. After all, there is no way for the PC to really know which direction the next attack is going to come from.


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I use spiked gauntlets for this purpose.


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If Weapon Finesse said it works with "whips", plural, then I'd agree that it works with whips of all kinds, including the scorpion whip and the nine-section whip. However, it doesn't say that. It says "whip" which is singular and is clearly only referencing the whip in the core rulebook.


The inner voice within your ear

Mind you we don't have too much evidence of that yet. We know neither the full capabilities of Lady Greengrass or Vordakai's Death.


The inner voice within your ear

Sounds like a bureau.


The inner voice within your ear

Yes, though if you construct the building using downtime capital first, you only need to pay 5 BP.

Also, if you can convince the other town leaders to go along with it (that is, us), you can just use BP from the Kingdom's treasury rather than paying for it out of pocket. Currently, at the end of Neth, we have 20 BP in the treasury, and we generally gain several more points each month.

So you can make an Herbalist shop using the downtime rules/with capital, in which case it is your character's business. You own it, run it, can LOSE it, etc. If you follow the example Herbalist shop, this will cost you 2,030gp (to buy the building outright), or half that in earned capital (to build it yourself). From that point forward you can use its facilities however you like, including to get various bonuses (see the individual Rooms in the Downtime rules) or to earn capital (which can help with item crafting, calling in favors, or expanding your business empire).

If you were to create one using the Kingdom Building rules/BP, then it is NOT your business. You don't own it. In fact, it likely belongs to some unnamed NPC. Creating a building or business this way is more like a ruler saying "We need an herbalist shop" and then creating incentives to make that happen. It benefits the kingdom, not you. However, you do indirectly benefit since you are a ruler. Also, since you are a ruler, you might be able to persuade or bully an NPC into allowing you to use their business' facilities, but that might have a unintended consequences as determined by the GM.

Starting the business yourself with downtime resources AND BP (which is a gray area in the rules, which is why our GM set up the above house rule) gets the best of both worlds. Not only is it YOUR business, but as ruler, you were able to pull strings to get it that normal people wouldn't have been able to (such as pulling from the royal treasury or throwing your weight around to lower prices just for you). The result is a government-funded business that you also own. Kind of like former President Bush and how his family is big into oil.


The inner voice within your ear
Dragonflyer1243 wrote:

That sounds like a good use for Kuthona.

I'm afraid that I don't understand how to determine whether or not a building should apply to the Kingdom level, could you explain how we determine the BP value of a building?

All of the sample buildings that you could construct from the Downtime rules (shown here) also appear in the Kingdom Building rules (shown here), so you would just have to find the matching building from one rule set in the other rule set.

For example, if you are building a temple (or something closely resembling a temple) using the downtime rules, you would likely spend 28 Goods, 2 Influence, 29 Labor, and 2 Magic (or 1,400 gp) to build it. However, if you also wanted it to have an impact on the Kingdom as a whole (as opposed to just being your personal business) then you would need to spend an additional 16 BP (half of the 32 listed for the temple under the Kingdom Building rules).

However, if you are building a wholly unique building that doesn't correspond well with any of the existing buildings listed in the Kingdom rules, then you should probably ask the GM what he thinks the BP cost should be.

Note that your downtime building doesn't have to exactly match those given in the examples (a temple to Cayden Cailean may well have a bar and common room, for example). Use your best judgement when deciding the primary purpose of your building (and thus what kingdom-level equivalent it most resembles), or else ask the GM if you are uncertain. Also, try and have the resource expenditure be approximately the same. Don't go abusing the rules/house rules/GM's good nature by building a one-room bar for (125gp), calling it a Cathedral to Cayden Cailean, and then saving yourself 28 BP on your new cathedral at the Kingdom scale. (Which would normally be equivalent to ~112,000gp!)

It's already quite generous of the GM to allow us to start said cathedral using the Downtime rules for 4,960 gp (or half that if you earn capital and build it yourself) in order to get the 28 BP discount later on.

I hope that helps. :D


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messy wrote:
can a potion of a spell with "range personal" and "target you" (like divine favor or false life) be crafted and consumed by someone else?

There's no such thing as personal range potion according to the rules. Totally illegal without house rules.


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He did some neat things with it. Nothing terribly spectacular. When the retraining rules came out he ended up retraining the selection out for a different spell.


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I was about to post to the OP just how weak a combo this was, but then I realized the OP was me. Hurrah for thread necromancy. :|

I wonder how well this might work with a spell slinger? They're known for shooting ray spells from their guns and what not, right?


The inner voice within your ear

Now that it looks like the Education Edict house rules have been finalized, I've implemented them into the Kingdom's statistic sheets for all months going forward (starting with Kuthona, 4707 A.R.). Currently, it is set to "Secondary Education" (which is the second to the highest education level offered).

This has the following effect on our Kingdom Stats:
+3 Stability, +2 Consumption, +1 Crime/Lore to all settlements; 15% of NPCs in our kingdom possess 1 or 2 heroic class levels, an additional 3% possess 3-5 heroic class levels (all others are assumed to have only NPC class levels).

Overall, a positive effect for our nation, though the additional consumption may delay our ability to build an army.


The inner voice within your ear

Also, if you intend for your business/building to have an effect at the Kingdom level*, then you should probably check the Castle District map to see if there is space for it.

If there is no space for it, then we need to start a new district, which will take one month to prepare, cost us 2 BP, and raise the Kingdom Check DCs by 1. Alternatively, we could start a whole new settlement with it's own district(s).

* Remember the GM's house rule: When you create a building using downtime capital and/or gold, it does NOT apply towards Kingdom scale statistics unless you spend half its listed BP value (the other half having already been represented by the downtime resources you've already invested). Such buildings are marked on the district maps with a large "C" for "under construction." You may still use the building/business to receive non-kingdom level bonuses. If you never intend to upgrade your building to have an impact on the kingdom-scale, then we don't even need to put it on the district map (though it still exists within the settlement).

EDIT: Gah. I keep forgetting about that Taxation house rule. Adjusting my business gold amounts...

Next edict phase, we're getting rid of kingdom taxes entirely. That ought to increase the Kingdom's loyalty substantially.


The inner voice within your ear

Should we run through another Kingdom month then?


The inner voice within your ear

When should we set out again? I have a lot of downtime activities that I'd like to complete first (as already marked on the calendar).


The inner voice within your ear

Maybe we can find some more ruins in the Narlmarches? Those tend to have treasure. We will have to watch out for the trolls though. Maybe we should get a few more hexes/farms built up, then get that army going and then assault the trolls' fortress?

(We could get that army now, but we will be at a net loss on consumption for a while, which might be fine with a 20 BP buffer.)


The inner voice within your ear

Once we get the unrest to a more manageable level, we may be able to tap the treasury a little to give your business a boost. Alternatively, we can go adventuring some more and hope to get money/treasure that way.


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HangarFlying wrote:
*shakeshead* Why am I not surprised that the thread devolved?

In what way has the thread "devolved"? It looks like a perfectly fine thread to me, up until your snide and unhelpful comment, that is.


The inner voice within your ear

Is your building completed, or are you adding more to it, Dragonflyer1243? If it's done, give me the info (rooms, teams, etc.) and I will apply its stats to Toran's PDF character sheet for you.

Does anyone else have any completed buildings/businesses they would like added to their sheets as well?


The inner voice within your ear

I've finished filling out my calendar month for Neth. Riva earned a little gold (and then promptly spent it), crafted a blessed book (finally!), sold her old spellbook (after transferring the spells of course), and purchased 2 new spells (alter self and invisibility).


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Can anyone think of any existing items where this FAQ might make for unintended consequences?


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Nothing really happens if you're familiar is far away (though you can only use empathic link up to 1 mile). You just can't prepare new spells (but you can still use all your currently prepared spells until they are exhausted).


The inner voice within your ear

Toran, I noticed you are marking the calendar with "2.2 Influence." You're supposed to round down with each check. You can't keep the remainder (excepting gold, which can be rounded to the nearest silver).

Powergaming DM wrote:
I really should check for random events in the downtime system, but it is a real pain.

Especially since you have to do it by the day...


The inner voice within your ear

I've uploaded an updated Exploration Map. It includes markers for some of the places we've explored recently as well as a new "red diagonal" pattern to denote areas that have been explored, but not yet cleared.

I've also uploaded an updated Kingdom Sheet.

All of the old links for them should continue to function, so there's no need to update your bookmarks or whatever.


The inner voice within your ear

Step 1 — The -4 for unrest is included in the final +22 modifier. We'd have 26 otherwise, GM, so we actually passed by 1 point.

Step 3 — I think all of the item slots are full. Currently, a pipe of the sewers and wand of magic missile (37 charges) are up for grabs currently for anyone with the money to buy them.

Step 4 — There are risks to the enforcer attempting to reduce unrest. If you attempt it, you must succeed at a Loyalty check or Loyalty decreases by 1.

I personally would not recommend it unless under dire straights or near automatic success is assured.

For those of you still learning the Kingdom building rules, you can find a refresher on the Kingdom turn rules here.

Powergaming DM wrote:
Looking that the downtime calendar I think the newer players might not be aware that time spent ruling can also double as time working for influence.

Yes, a logical house rule.


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wraithstrike wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
HangarFlying wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Even if you ignore all of literature and many players' expectations that stem from said literature, it just doesn't make logical sense for someone to create a ring that is more likely to get you caught then if you didn't have it in the first place. Why would anyone ever make such an item? Unless they were made, or the itme cursed, they generally wouldn't.

That's a big part of why a lot of us are unhappy with the ruling. There is a serious logical disconnect there.

No, you all are unhappy because you're used to playing it in a way that didn't actually comport with the language in the rules, and when that is finally pointed out, you collectively get butt-hurt.

No one said you had to play it that way. It's the crappy attitude that comes along with the complaints that's a problem.

Dude, how about you stop with the insults and inventing other people's motivations for the discussion. It's a real dick move. You don't know me, and you don't know the other people in the discussion, so how about you just focus on the arguments instead of making it personal.

I don't play with the ring the way it is, and I don't play with it the way I thought it was. It's just not a good enough item to spend the gold on, command word or not.

Ravingdork actually admitted he thought it was stupid and he was not used to playing it that way.

lol. Meant to say "Unless the creator was mad, or the item cursed, they generally wouldn't [make it that way]." Edited my previous post for clarity.


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Even if you ignore all of literature and many players' expectations that stem from said literature, it just doesn't make logical sense for someone to create a ring that is more likely to get you caught then if you didn't have it in the first place. Why would anyone ever make such an item? Unless the creator was mad, or the item cursed, they generally wouldn't.

That's a big part of why a lot of us are unhappy with the ruling. There is a serious logical disconnect there.

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