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Raegos

Ravingdork's page

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 17,142 posts (17,636 including aliases). 1 review. 2 lists. 1 wishlist. 1 Pathfinder Society character. 8 aliases.


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This comic directly addresses this very issue.


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Wow. Just. wow.

This is WAY BEYOND even MY reputed shenanigans.


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I'm Batman!

Or perhaps Santa Claus or the Marshmallow Man!


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Sorvin wrote:

spell combat was erratad and faqd be a full attack action.

srd says you can't take ANY MOVEMENT during a full attack except 5 ft step.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

The specifics of the spell trumps the general combat rule.

EDIT: Ninja'd!


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I just LOVE Andorian Avengers!

Oh...wait...


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Several days later I talked to the player in question after he had calmed down a bit. It would seem he blew up because of several things leading up to that incident, as I've described in more detail in the spoiler below. In short, he was upset because of my "railroading tendencies" as a GM.

Skull and Shackles 4 spoilers:

In his own words, the player positively hated that no matter what steps they took during the adventure, nothing they did changed anything.

***

When the whores came upon their island, the player in question (the "Captain" of the crew) wanted to kill them, or otherwise get rid of them. Their timing was too convenient for his liking, and he never trusted them, even after they passed mundane and magical interrogation with flying colors AND after the PCs contacted Mediagalti island (the PC being a Red Mantis Assassin already) and obtained proof of their story.

He really wanted to kill them, and let us know that he was upset that, logically, his character had no reason to do so.

***

After clearing the island of every single threat, the player in question had no desire whatsoever to go through the tests given by the Pirate Lords visiting his island. The way he saw it, they had already proven themselves by taming the island. All of the trials ended up feeling forced, because the players knew they were working on a point-based scoring system and they HAD to do the trials if they wanted to get anywhere with the Pirate Council.

***

The PCs took steps to check the food for poison, but due to the nature of the Eel's sabotage, they never detected anything wrong with the food until their guests started getting sick (the Captain even stood in the kitchen and watched it get cooked). Though they managed to discreetly cure everyone after the fact (leaving only one council member feeling ill for a brief 5 minutes). Having to deal with the scenario despite all of their precautions left a bad taste in their mouths, even after it was explained how the Eel pulled it all off.

***

It was well known that the PCs had used magic to fix up the fort and surrounding areas in preparation for the feast, including judicious use of stone shape to seal up all of the cracks in the walls and foundations, and to seal off all of the tunnels to the underworld.

So when it was later revealed that the Eel infiltrated their island by slithering through just such a crack (that by all rights shouldn't have existed in the first place), they all threw up their hands in discontent. I explained to my players that I had simply forgotten about the detailed nature of their repairs and that the Eel could nevertheless have simply come up on shore on an unguarded part of the island just as easily--or via a thousand other routes/methods.

But the damage had already been done.

One of the most exciting modules I have ever had the pleasure of reading quickly became one of the worst games I have ever hosted. It was universally reviled by my players who, insofar as I can tell, just want to be ruthless pirates, not politicians. I now have little hope for the future of the campaign.


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Diego Rossi wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I remember when folks first discovered the knowledge pool "exploit" during the early magus days, only to have a developer turn around and tell them that it was a "feature."
Citation please, as SKR said the opposite.

Jason Buhlman started it off by asking us, the players, whether we thought it was a feature or a problem.

Not quite as I remember it. Still, they were well aware of the potential problems and never once bothered to close the "exploit." Such an omission of errata/change is tantamount to a general acceptance of it, at least on the "ask your GM" level.

I've also shown in other threads that, mathematically, using this "exploit" only saves you ~25,000gp at 16th-level, the price of a single Medium-power magical item. Hardly a balance problem at those levels (and the lower level you are, the less it saves you, so relative balance is maintained at all levels whether you use it or not).


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If I remember correctly, I offered the player the chance to use a Hero Point to perform a coup de grace that would not kill his companion. Unfortunately, there were two circumstances holding up such an off the cuff ruling: The player being generally contrary and saying he shouldn't have to spend Hero Points to do something that he should, logically, be able to do without them; and that he happened to be out of Hero Points at the time.


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ElementalXX wrote:

Wait, what? The arcanist, the guy who can summon rogues and empowered maximized fireballs, feels out-shined by a rogue?! What!? Really!?

If he wants to do damage, then you should tell him he should prepare /learn much more evocation spells and for gods sake use metamixing and tell him to stop being a child.

First, there is no need to be insulting.

Second, how does a 10th-level caster cast empowered maximized fireball spells (which require an 8th-level spell slot) when they only have access to 5th-level spell slots by default?

Third, even if the player in question has enough system mastery to cast empower maximized fireballs at 10th-level, how does that help him defeat energy resistances and spell resistance (which sound to have been the real problem in this particular encounter)?


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Ashiel wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Generally, I agree. Though, time is not much of an issue if it all takes place in the character's background prior to play, much like the crafting feats do already.
That's when the GM says no.
Indeed. It's entirely fine for a GM to do so.

Indeed. Still, in a game that does use the downtime rules, does it not set up a double standard to allow crafting during character generation, and not crafting with Magic capital? Logically speaking, why would you allow the former during character creation, but not the latter? To make and enforce such a ruling flies in the face of the game designers' intent with their item crafting FAQ--to avoid players having their feats essentially go to waste.

(And for the record, I wouldn't allow a player to get the benefits of the feats during character creation WHILE ALSO retraining it out before play. If you want the benefits in my game, you have to keep the feats.)


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Mark Hoover wrote:
This is official? Please cite.

The relevant FAQ entry.

Mark Hoover wrote:
Can you earn Capital and spend it in the same day?

Depends on the downtime activities you select. Earning capital generally takes up a day. Spending it may or may not take up any time at all, depending on how you are spending it.


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Odraude wrote:
I wouldn't say you were wrong, but I think you could have facilitated something with the player.

I did. I told him to strike for nonlethal damage. I can only guess that he didn't want to suffer the -4 penalty to hit.


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Might I suggest the Mass Combat rules from Ultimate Campaign? Not only does it have a variety of rules for raising an army, but also on what it takes to maintain and utilize one (or several for that matter).


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I guess the humor wasn't as obvious as I had hoped. Edited my post so as to be clearer.


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Chengar Qordath wrote:
I think most people would agree that using retraining to regularly flip-flop your feat selections for something like only having crafting feats while crafting is the kind of thing a GM should step in and put a stop to.

I'm inclined to agree. However, even if allowed, there is a benefit to holding onto those crafting feats: You can still craft while adventuring. Anywhere you can prepare spells is a place you can craft. It's just a little slower then when you're using downtime (unless you are earning Magic capital to pay for it--in that case, it's probably faster). That's not something the player can do if he retrains them out. People seem to totally forget that about item crafting.


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You attempted a stunning irruption without the Stunning Irruption feat?

Your GM made the right ruling.

Just kidding. Seriously though, that way of thinking only leads to darkness. I can't stand feats and abilities whose existence actually limit options rather than expand upon them, such as the Strike Back feat or the interplanetary teleport spell.


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CraziFuzzy wrote:
Focused overseer does not really save any gp at all, it only saves time , allowing you to purchase capital at the same price you could have earned it.

Except for the part where the feat specifically states its "changes in price apply to both the purchased cost and the earned cost of the affected forms of capital."


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Skyth wrote:
Changes is plural, referring to both changes (the focused and neglected)

Yep. There's no question of intent here.


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Dave Justus wrote:
Yes, but purchasing capital and earning capital are different things. The feat only effects purchasing.
CrazziFuzzy wrote:
In short, you cannot get Magic capital for 25gp each, whether you spend 0 feats on it (running a business), one feat (skilled work), or two (purchasing capital).

Please read the ENTIRE rule before posting.

Benefit(s): You can spend a day of downtime to purchase one type of capital for half its normal cost (see Purchasing Capital). This capital must be the same as the focus capital you chose for the Focused Worker feat. However, the cost of the neglected capital, chosen as part of the same Focused Worker feat, increases by half again its normal amount. These changes in price apply to both the purchased cost and the earned cost of the affected forms of capital.

Basically, in exchange for a couple of feats, you can add a whole hell of a lot of time to your crafting in order to save a whole hell of a lot of gold. Since you can officially pay crafting costs with your character's starting funds during character creation, while totally ignoring crafting times, I see no logical reason in the RAW why this wouldn't also apply to Focused Overseer and the downtime rules.


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I remember when folks first discovered the knowledge pool "exploit" during the early magus days, only to have a developer turn around and tell them that it was a "feature."


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Skyth wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Focused Overseer lets you obtain a single kind of capital (such as Magic) at half the normal numbers.
Where is this feat from?

Focused Overseer is from Quests and Campaigns, an official Pathfinder supplement that specifically deals with downtime rules (adding new downtime spells, abilities, feats, etc).


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CWheezy wrote:
You need time which is not insignificant. Anyway the game is strictly improved by retraining.

Generally, I agree. Though, time is not much of an issue if it all takes place in the character's background prior to play, much like the crafting feats do already.


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I'm trying to find an interesting way to build Kan-Ra, from the Killer Instinct video game, and would appreciate some advice/brainstorming. [link]

At first, I was thinking of having him be something akin to a human brawler/sorcerer/eldritch knight with the mummified creature template, but the more I think about it the less sensible it seems. There's almost no synergy there, and brawler doesn't even allow the character to meet the proficiency requirements for eldritch knight.

Can you help me find a better way of representing this character in Pathfinder?

I was thinking he needs to be a martial spellcaster, primarily using spells to duplicate many of his game abilities as outlined below:


  • Bestow curse seems like a good fit for his curse ability
  • Dimension door can be reflavored as his sandy teleport
  • Jump, reflavored to include a giant hand launching him in the air
  • Summon monster and summon swarm can conjure up the giant scorpion and flying swarms seen in the game
  • Telekinesis, strangling hair, long arm, and similar spells can be reflavored to be linen wraps manipulating things from afar

What do you guys think? Do you have any more ideas to offer?


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graystone wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

No power creep with retraining? In that case, what exactly is stopping a player from having his character take the Focused Overseer and Craft Wondrous Item feats, making nearly all of his gear for 1/8 the standard market price, then retraining those feats out for something more combat oriented prior to play--essentially octupling one's starting gear over non-crafters for no meaningful investment?

No power creep. *rolls eyes*

LOL The powercreep is with those feats and not retraining. Most downtime rules are axed for me. Simply removing Earn Capital from downtime removes the majority of issues with super reduced prices.

Before the retraining rules, you had to invest in no less than three non-combat feats to get that kind of discount, and you'd be stuck with them for your whole career. That's a lot of investment and it should get you a lot of gain. But with retraining? It basically becomes FREE power creep at that point. Now you are no longer required to invest the feat resources to pull it off (at least not for long).


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FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
For those asking, dnd-tools was for 3.5 material. I'm thinking the reason they (WotC via the law company they hired) shut it down is that they want people to move away from DnD 3.5, and purchase the "latest and greatest" DnD 4th and 5th editions. So, not entirely without reason, but still very, very sad.

That's akin to sending those lawyers to our homes to take our v3.5 books away.

I'll be waiting for them. *cocks shotgun*


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Make no mistake, the retraining rules are amazing; they fixed a lot of the things that were wrong with the game. But to say that no power creep came out of it? What exactly is stopping a player from having his character take the Focused Overseer and Craft Wondrous Item feats, making nearly all of his gear for 1/8 the standard market price, then retraining those feats out for something more combat oriented prior to play--essentially octupling one's starting gear over non-crafters for no meaningful investment?

No power creep they said. *rolls eyes*

John Lynch 106 wrote:
Deighton Thrane wrote:
helps reduce suicide by monster if the player wants to change, but is trapped in their previous character choices.
Is this a real concern for DMs? I've never met a group who would force a player to continue playing the same character rather than let the character retire and make a new one.

When a player is dissatisfied with a character, I've almost never seen them simply retire. It almost always comes down to a disruptive suicide by monster scenario.

Then the retraining rules came along, and suddenly those instances became much more rare.


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Diego Rossi wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
The downtime system along with two feats lets you craft magical items at an 8th of their typical market price. All you need is time.

1/4 AFAIK, what is the other feat that let's you halve the price again?

I know a trait that let you pay 5% less.

Focused Overseer lets you obtain a single kind of capital (such as Magic) at half the normal numbers.

Therefore, you can get Magic capital at 25gp a pop. Then turn around and use it against your crafting costs at 100gp a pop. Market price is usually double crafting costs, so you are only paying 1/8 the actual market price.

With certain crafting traits, I've been able to obtain ~92.5% savings with item crafting.


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John Lynch 106 wrote:

Here's a question: Do you as DM feel it's fine for a player to take feat X because it's the optimal choice at their current level, with the explicit plan of retraining it in 5 levels because it won't be the optimal choice then? E.g. Concentration checks are something low level sorcerers struggle with but by about level 10 it's no longer an issue. A player knows this and so takes the combat casting feat at level 1 with the plan to retrain it for quicken spell at level 10.

Do you feel that's following the intent of this rule?

Absolutely. Keeping your abilities useful at all levels of play is integral to maintaining the fun for most players. Nobody likes playing a character that can't pull its weight properly.


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Here here!


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Isn't this exactly the reason why the retraining rules exist, so you can avoid getting stuck with dud options? I have a feat (or other feature), but then I get the feat/feature later on as a free bonus, which is useless and redundant, so I retrain the first version out and keep the bonus version.


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The downtime system along with two feats lets you craft magical items at an 8th of their typical market price. All you need is time.


The inner voice within your ear

Yeah, I was thinking it might be a landmark or something we could use in our Kingdom building. I say we just go inside and clear it out. It'll be more fun anyways.


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If you're looking for disgusting, how about a plague-infested ratfolk covered in horrible lesions and vile that flies around on his tumor steed grown from his own body? And in a few more levels and he will have two heads! :D


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Diego Rossi wrote:
Working 24 days every month you get 1.000 gp/month. Not bad for a 3rd level character.

Enough for an extravagant life style, according to the cost of living rules in the Core Rulebook. :D


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Ashiel wrote:
GM: "Um, it's so obvious! You just don't understand how obvious it is that it has always been a thing and I don't need rules, because it's so natural a conclusion that if you weren't being an overly anal rules lawyer you'd agree with me."

It's only funny to you because you haven't actually had a GM, in all seriousness, say this to your face.

Anzyr wrote:
Because again, one act does not define who someone is.

Try telling that to the Czarnians about Lobo.


The inner voice within your ear

What if we just knock the tower down, as I was already considering?


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Yeah, insofar as I know, they are supposed to stack.


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Devilkiller wrote:

When I saw players complaining about a Magus it wasn't due to DPR but the number of actions she was able to accomplish in a round along with some combat maneuver antics with True Strike.

Shortly after the final magus class was released, I made one that made great use of his strengths within the action economy. In one of his first games my magus got "caught off-guard" when enemies attacked his camp at night. Within the opening round/surprise round he had donned an armored coat and quick draw shield, drew out his primary melee weapon with the Quick Draw feat, moved up to his speed with the bladed dash spell and slew one of the would-be ambushers with two quick slashes of his sword and a sizable bonus from Arcane Accuracy.

The other players just stared on in slack-jawed surprise.

In the following round, he took out two more minions by moving up and attacking one, then using bladed dash to get to the other. The whole scene was pretty cinematic.


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Jiggy wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I've found many PFS judges to be similarly hilarious.
Out of what kind of sample size?

I've played under ~12 PFS GMs in Florida who have ranged from lots of fun and fairly competent to not really fun and totally clueless.


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blackbloodtroll wrote:

I think the weirdest ruling I have had a PFS judge make, was that I could not attack an enemy who was grappling an ally, with a club, or bite, as I was told "You might hit your ally", and had to use a dagger, which I did not have. He even went so far, as to tell me, that my PC had "forgotten" a dagger I had(which I didn't).

I was so flabbergasted, I paused for for an uncomfortably long time, and just decided it wasn't worth arguing.

I just attacked with the dagger, that I didn't have.

I've found many PFS judges to be similarly hilarious. If I wasn't so lazy, I might actually consider becoming one just to set a higher standard.


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I'm not so sure T.D. Even if your GM allows you to choose a Focused school rather than a traditional one, it's still all Charisma-based, which isn't strictly ideal for many arcanists. Even if you're GM allows it and you don't mind being a little MAD, it is still limited to Evocation spells only. With the metamagic feat(s) you can at least change the properties of any energy spell regardless of school.

I'd argue they're pretty equivalent.


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Or perhaps metamixing with the Elemental Spell metamagic feat?


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Due to the way they can cast their spells, Arcanists have the potential to really excel with metamagic.

I want to make an arcanist that is extremely versatile with his spells and metamagic. What kind of options would you recommend for such a character around 10th-level?

I'm planning on taking a lot of metamagic feats, crafting some metamagic rods, having some spells prepared with metamagic and others added after the fact spontaneously with Metamixing. The questions are what metamagic should I bother with; which of those should be feats and which should be rods? Also, are there other abilities or options that might promote the concept of an extremely versatile spellcaster that can be ready for almost anything in only a round or two?

I also plan on getting a blessed book with all of the core arcanist spells of 5th-level and lower for use with Quick Study.

Please help me make this an awesome build.


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Muddman72 wrote:

No, he only does it 3 times a day, but thats about 150 points of damage to a big baddie even if he makes the ridiculous saves. Can't even throw fire immunity into it because he's an arcanist and can change it to frost by spending an arcane pool point.

Ok, live and learn :)

I'm not familiar with any arcanist ability that allows that. Is he using metamagic to pull that off?


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I was thinking it was the standard weapon property, not a class ability.


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Scavion wrote:

Flaming requires a command word to be activated which is a standard action.

Bane does not have a command word.

True, but short of wanting to be discreet, there's no reason to turn the flaming property off once activated. It should almost never take a standard action during combat as a result (since you would activate it outside of combat, and just leave it on).


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Is an Initiative check considered an ability check for the purposes of things like whether or not it gets the bonus from a stone of good luck?


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wraithstrike wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
3200. Min CL is always 8. Staves should generally have at least two spells though.
Staves are priced based on the spells. There is no rule saying any spell has to have a caster level of 8.

Oh?

Creating Staves:

To create a magic staff, a character needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a staff or the pieces of the staff to be assembled.

The materials cost is subsumed in the cost of creation: 400 gp × the level of the highest-level spell × the level of the caster, plus 75% of the value of the next most costly ability (300 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster), plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities (200 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster). Staves are always fully charged (10 charges) when created.

If desired, a spell can be placed into the staff at less than the normal cost, but then activating that particular spell drains additional charges from the staff. Divide the cost of the spell by the number of charges it consumes to determine its final price. Note that this does not change the order in which the spells are priced (the highest level spell is still priced first, even if it requires more than one charge to activate). The caster level of all spells in a staff must be the same, and no staff can have a caster level of less than 8th, even if all the spells in the staff are low-level spells.

The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material component costs sufficient to activate the spell 50 times (divide this amount by the number of charges one use of the spell expends). Material components are consumed when he begins working, but focuses are not. (A focus used in creating a staff can be reused.) The act of working on the staff triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the staff 's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

Creating a few staves may entail other prerequisites beyond spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details.

Crafting a staff requires 1 day for each 1,000 gp of the base price.

downlobot wrote:

If you're adding abilities to a staff over time, do higher spell levels added later always cost full price?

E.G. you create a staff with a level 2 spell at 400*2*CL/charges. If you later add a level 3 spell, is the cost to add that then 400*3*CL/charges because it is now the highest spell level?

Thanks!

You would pay the difference, not the full cost.

Therefore you would pay (400*3*CL/charges) - (100*2*CL/charges).

Assuming one charge and CL 8th in the above example, you would only pay 8,000gp for the upgrade.

EXAMPLE:
Staff with a 2nd- and 1st-level spell
400 * 2 * 8 = 6,400.
300 * 1 * 8 = 2,400.
6,400 + 2,400 = 8,600gp.

Staff with a 3rd-, 2nd-, and 1st-level spell
400 * 3 * 8 = 9,600.
300 * 2 * 8 = 4,800.
200 * 1 * 8 = 1,600.
9,600 + 4,800 + 1,600 = 16,000gp.

The Difference you pay for the upgrade
16,000 - 8,600 = 7,400gp.


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3200. Min CL is always 8. Staves should generally have at least two spells though.


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Chemlak wrote:
You are limited to starting a single one of these on any given day...

Could you quote the relevant rule please?

The rules I've seen so far...

You can use your downtime capital to create a building that suit your needs, such as a temple, guildhall, or mage tower. You construct a building out of component rooms that allow you to configure the building exactly how you want it (see Rooms and Teams).

How much capital you can spend per day is limited by the size of the settlement you're in. Once you've spent the total capital and time needed to finish your building, it's complete and you can use it immediately.

...seem to imply that you can get multiple rooms or recruitment going at once.

You can create and recruit for an organization that doesn't rely on a specific building. For example, you could may want to recruit employees (or minions) if you're a rogue and want to start your own gang of cutpurses or a cleric who wants to start a cult of followers. You create an organization out of component teams, so you can configure the organization exactly how you want it (see Rooms and Teams). How much downtime capital you can spend in a day is limited by the size of the settlement you're in (see Spending Limits). When you've spent the appropriate capital and time for your organization, it's complete and you can put it to work immediately.

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