Ravingdork's page

When people come to the conversation armed with actual mathematic explanations, digging in your heels and insisting there's nothing to see here, when PCs are getting one-shot all the damn time, is NOT a good look, lol.

Except they're not getting one-shot all the time.

They're getting one-shot (occasionally) in tight quarters, in ambushes, against more powerful enemies--situations that are generally not considered the norm.

Is there a learning curve for new players? Of course there is. Are their characters more vulnerable as a result? Generally, yes.

Is that an indicator that the game is difficult to learn or that the underlying math is in dire need of adjustment? No, not really.

This is not some lazy isikai anime in which the party is overpowered and invincible right out of the gate. This is a tabletop roleplaying game, possibly the finest there has ever been. To insinuate that the math is badwrongfun is an insult to the developers that spent countless hours getting the math exactly right for the type of game they wanted.

This isn't about game design, but about heehawing one's personal preferences as the only correct way. Anyone who reads this thread and says otherwise are the ones being disingenuous.

I agree...that death needs to be a threat for it to feel like there are real stakes. But also that it should come from poor choices under the players control.

If the enemy goes first, moves into range and hits the PC and knocks them to dying 2 before they can even do anything....the player character had no opportunity to do anything wrong other than existing.

Even if the player goes first and moves into melee range to make an attack, but the enemy turn knocks them out on the first hit there's still not much (at low levels) you could expect a PC to do differently.

And that's why it's a problem at low levels. You don't even have an opportunity to assess "Okay I've been hit, I'm substantially damaged, I need to retreat and plan on how to mitigate this damage I've taken".

You just go from full health to dying.

Once again, I think this is less an issue with problematic math than it is encounter design.

If it's an ambush, then it should be as nasty as you describe. If it's not an ambush, then the two parties should probably be more spread out.

The issue with a PC dropping in round 1 before they can act isn't the math, it's with the itty-bitty battle maps. If the enemy starts farther away, PCs will have more time to ready themselves, create more distance, set up impediments, or maybe even take out an enemy with a lucky crit or party focus fire.

THIS IS A PROBLEM.

THIS IS A FEATURE.

Ah, I think I see what's happened. When I played my champion through Agents of Edgewatch there were no rules conflicts. Our entire table checked the text, thoroughly.

Therefore, I was convinced that either you were all mistaken, or else the mirror implement had been errata'd. This lead me to stubbornly argue the point, from a stance using incorrect assumptions.

I now realize my champion was played at a time in which a champion's aura, if any, had no association with their ability to use their reactions. Unlike the post-Remaster champion, which makes such reactions dependent on said aura.

Therefore, my champion's combo with mirror implement was perfectly valid then, but now appears to interact completely differently today.

I concede the argument that auras are effects, and that my champion tricks no longer appear to function as they once had.

Considering that said NPC caster could /"should" have feats like Quickened Casting to open with yet more damage...

Why? NPCs are not built anything like PCs. The shouldn't have feats at all. What leads you to believe that they should possess abilities that work against balanced encounter design?

Once per day abilities like Quickened Casting are powerful, designed specifically for PCs, and are often reigned in only by their once per day limitation. To put such an ability on an NPC or creature that is likely only going to live long enough to use it once anyways essentially does away with that limitation, and thus serves only to imbalance the encounter unnecessarily.

As with any encounter you're building, you need to ask yourself "is this likely to make the encounter more, or less, fun for my players?"

As for teaching the tactics of the game, I remember the Dungeons & Dragons informative joke about paladin pajamas. A character who relies on armor that must be removed while sleeping can keep a separate set of comfortable armor to sleep in, such as armored cloak, armored coat, explorer's clothing, padded armor, or quilted armor. At 12th level they can afford to enchant their pajamas with +1 armor and resilient runes. This is a non-obvious tactic, taught by cruel experience after a couple of encounters while sleeping.

All of the heavy armors from Player Core (and hopefully heavy armors in general) come with padded armor as part of the suit of armor.

I believe it is expected that heavy armor users sleep in that, and so maintain some level of protection and maintain their runes even while resting.

Even if that's not the intent of the developers, that's certainly how we play it at my tables.

It's interesting to hear how different everyone's experiences are with PF2E. In the groups I've played with, we haven't really run into the "rocket tag" issue beyond the first few sessions, once we got a better feel for the system. I wonder if it might come down to playstyle or how the GMs are running encounters?

I'm not convinced the underlying math at low levels is problematic. I suspect that perception stems far more from the imbalances found in some of the earlier adventure path modules, which are known to have been calibrated poorly as the rules were still being written at the time.

Smurf the Runelords and their laughably "narrow" focus! When do I get to play Megumin?

Pathfinder 2e is quite nearly perfect at all levels of play.

I don't know about 7-12 being a sweet spot for play, but it does certainly seem like many of my character concept builds fall into that range anyways.

It never even occurred to me that the archetype could use more than one stave so (1) this errata essentially doesn't effect me or my view of the game and (2) I'm surprised so many people really intended to take advantage of what was an obvious exploit (or that their GMs would ever allow it).

Ravingdork wrote:

It doesn't look like you have Free Archetype turned on in the Character Options settings of the app. Which oracle feats have you taken / plan to take?

You do have to pay for that.

And it might be the best $5 a PF2e player could spend on this hobby.

Like the lightning dash user, I rule that aerial boomerang ceases to exist upon impact with a solid wall that it can't break through.

I keep forgetting that if you Fail to Sneak you remain Hidden rather than becoming Observed.

... though Quiet allies.

Quiet Allies wrote:

You’re skilled at moving with a group. When you are Avoiding Notice and your allies Follow the Expert, you and those allies can roll a single Stealth check, using the lowest modifier, instead of rolling separately. This doesn’t apply for initiative rolls.

With how this is worded you cannot have "It is a single check done at initiative"

Oh poo. Quiet Allies looks like a pretty strong argument to me.

I think Unicore has the right of it. Nearly all the OP's examples would be best served as victory point or skill challenges.

This would also allow opportunities for other players to contribute in a meaningful way, rather than all being sidelined by "the one true hero."

I agree with those saying to go the ritual route.

As for specific mechanical effects, I'd treat it like the beastkin's Dire Form feat in that your stats are altered per dragon shape (as opposed to enlarge). Like Dire Form, it would essentially be an instantaneous effect that lacks the polymorph trait. That is, permanent not-dispellable-except-by-artifact/deific-magic duration.

So it's been almost a week now since you started the thread. Have you been able to talk to your GM about it?

I've been waiting for the next session to bring it up since the GM is hard to reach between sessions and generally doesn't like to be bothered by such things unless we're in session.

Here's hoping he doesn't interpret it as an ambush.

How do people think like 90% of TTRPGs work, with rules just as if not more loose than aid? That other games are some lawless wasteland where players exploit the rules for their own gain, the the GMs are powerless to stop them?

Yes.

Pathfinder 2e is the light in the dark.

Both our rulings are legitimate. So we should just agree to disagree.

Less legitimate and more finagly in your case I'd say.

Simply aiding an attack, all it's own should not be considered an easy or hard task. Any GM who thinks otherwise is being disingenuous and punitive.

It's for things like aiding an attack in a blizzard, or on a rolling ship deck at sea, or when magnetic forces speed your weapon towards your target.

And boats don't specifically state that they float in the rules, yet they still do, somehow.

I suddenly find myself imagining a legendary tanuki warrior known for never leaving any surviving witnesses.

When confronted by enemy challengers his sword, armor pieces, brush, socks, and other accouterments all turn into highly trained tanuki warriors, leaving him a nearly naked but no less deadly monk. They each take turns being "the legendary warrior." XD

You could have one tanuki infiltrate a location literally carrying an army on his back! :O

Can you provide examples so we can judge your GM position?

Most commonly, I'll be in melee with an enemy* and an ally, often flanking. Then I declare that my third action will be to Aid my flanking ally, to better ensure they hit or crit. Then I make an attack roll, and seeing that it's a success or crit success against DC 15, even with the occasional MAP, I declare the roll total to the GM.

Then the GM says something along the lines of "you failed; no bonus" or "not enough to aid".

So far I've not put a whole lot of effort into describing precisely how my character is aiding the other.

Sounds like a Crawling Hand familiar with the Cantrip Connection or Spellcasting familiar ability and the Absorb Famiar master ability that never leaves your space (unless severed).

If you're not a spellcaster with easy access to familiars, you can probably manage it with the Familiar Master or Familiar Sage archetypes.

I hope that helps.

It might be fast, but it's EXPENSIVE!

For 600gp, I could hire a thousand unskilled laborers to dig for two months.

Alternatively, I can hire THIRTEEN teams of 10 unskilled laborers and 1 skilled laborer (foreman) to dig for 1 month with a bit of coin left over for unexpected situations.

I suspect that would go much farther in most cases.

Pathfinder 1st Edition had the Oozemorph archetype of the Shifter class (Ultimate Wilderness) as well as the Mezlans*, so "ooze people" do exist in the world lore already.

We just need the mechanics to bring them into 2nd Edition.

EDIT: Damn. Ninja'd by a slippery brinebeast.

At least I can still be useful by linking things for people.

Apallie | Thorgothrel | Doppeldrek (Awakened)

I hope he is able to find a GM better able to meet his unique needs someday.

;P

Agreed. All are available options.

The game is far easier for people to learn than past iterations. There may be more rules, but they are far simpler and better written. What's more, there are far more useful tools and resources to help one play the game. We have it better than ever before.

The player base, on the other hand, has grown far more dependent on hand-holding, railroading, and general GM coddling. Social media, poor parenting, failing school systems, divisive politics, and the constant social campaigns to destroy the nuclear family are causing society in general to devolve to Idiocracy levels of helplessness.

Back in my day people could think past the immediate consequences of their actions, could see through their initial emotional outbursts and produce something resembling a logical thought process, and often took the initiative to find things out or get things done, rather than screaming into the aether that no one was taking care of their every need.

I notice a strange effect of Unstoppable Juggernaut in its last paragraph:

Source Player Core 2 pg. 85 1.1 - Unstoppable Juggernaut wrote:

You have become a brutal, unstoppable force of nature, able to shrug off mortal wounds with ease. You gain resistance equal to 3 + your Constitution modifier to all damage, and your resistance from raging increases to 8 + your Constitution modifier.

In addition, if you are reduced to 0 Hit Points while raging, you can end your rage as a reaction to stay at 1 Hit Point. If you do, you become wounded 2 (or increase your wounded condition by 2 if you are already wounded).

I put the last paragraph in bold to point that once you while in rage and still have a reaction technically a barbarian could end the rage recover to 1 hit point and become wounded 2 then wounded 4 then wounded 6 then wounded 8 and so on? Because if I'm understanding this right you do not enter into dying state (or you would be unable to use a reaction due unconsciousness) instead your reaction prevents you to enter into dying condition and put you in wounded +2 but once that wounded condition doesn't set a limit like dying does, teorically you can become can keep increasing the wounded value as long the effect that is killing you doesn't have death trait and you are in rage and have a free reaction?

This is the only correct answer.

If I use the Clear the Way feat and successfully Shove 5 people, can I Stride the same distance and direction after each success, then after all 5 successes (having moved quite the distance if things fell into place perfectly), I can then Stride up to half my speed again per the Clear the Way feat.

Is that correct; is that how it works?

Better questions would be does a fight end far to fast if you apply each weakness as extra damage?

I imagine it wouldn't come up enough to matter much even if it did.

I'm probably misremembering. Internet indicates it may have been Galt.

Forget the name of it but the island nation surrounded by fey woods, where they have the dance of four seasons.

Modestly safe, you know what the dangers around you are. Big enough to learn trades or get into politics. A good middle ground.

Didn't a giant moth god murder their leaders forcing thousands to flee or be brainwashed?

I phrased it that way in order to get the most promising variety of answers. ;P

Wherever such a place might be, it'd also be the worst place to set an adventure, so it's thus the least likely place for us to ever spend time detailing. Or even mentioning.

This discussion would be no fun if there were no challenges to it.

Secrets of Magic
There are a number of longstanding questions regarding eidolons that could really use some answers.

1) Can eidolons use mundane items such as a healer's toolkit, thievess toolkit, a shield, etc.)

2) What happens to afflictions and other ongoing effects on the eidolon when they are unmanifested (poison, persistent damage, disease, etc).

3) What happens when an eidolon is reduced to 0 HP by a death effect? Does the specific rule that an eidolon unmanifests when reaching 0 HP trump the general rule that creatures die when reduced to 0 HP by a death effect?

To beat Usain Bolt's record, you'd need to hit 70 feet of movement per action. A level 19 human monk with Fleet tops out at 65 feet per round without magical aid.

Try 520 feet per round for an elf monk with Furious Sprint from Barbarian archetype. Without magic. Last I checked, the equivalent of 173.33 feet per action more than doubles Usain Bolt on his best day.

And the hero can do it ALL DAY LONG WITH GEAR.

If you're going to compare the fastest real life figure to a game character, at least make an honest attempt of it and not use a mediocre build with no options.

Compare the best with the best.

But since you're just here to trash on PF2e (yet again) then it's no surprise you didn't bother to put in a good faith effort.

Do you NEED elemental runes specifically?

Or do you just need a bit of elemental damage on your weapons to keep with a theme?

If you're not limiting yourself to runes, then I believe there are several options that add smaller amounts of elemental damage to weapon strikes out there.

For me it was the Pathfinder 1e Playtest. Got hooked hard through the DD3e, DD3.5e, DD4E, P1e, P2e pipeline. 2e improved upon it in every meaningful way, which is a big part of what keeps me around.

exequiel759 wrote:

Absalom 100%. Yeah, its the most logical target for BBEGs, but at the same time its the safest place since with the amount of APs that take place there and overall APs in general the amount of 20 level characters in that city can keep you totally safe from harm.

Cults to horrific deities operate in the open. Serial killers are a recurring issue. Tar-Baphon laid siege to the city not that long ago in pursuit of the Starstone, and a lot of people died. There's pretty nasty wealth disparity.

To say nothing of the warring street gangs, murder hotels, haunted fairgrounds, sewer monsters, deadly subterranean dungeons large enough to house mech-sized constructs, biological weapon attacks, and oh yeah, the giant mech-sized construct that briefly trampled downtown and nearly swallowed up the whole city.

Asleep at the inn or walking down the city street in broad daylight buying groceries? Not loaded.

Venturing into a dungeon found in the Swamp of Lost Souls? Loaded.

It's not a hard ruling.

Absalom gives me pause, as it should for anyone else who has played Agents of Edgewatch.

What do you believe to be the safest or most promising place on (or in) Golarion? Pretend for a moment that you are a citizen of that world, have the unique opportunity to go anywhere, and the means to begin preparing a new home for the future of your (current or someday) family. Where would you go and why?

War of Immortals 58 (Avenger archetype)

The archetype abilities and feats don't seem to account for deities that have fist as their favored weapon.

Divine Mysteries / Supplemental God Table (web)

There are a half dozen deities in Pathfinder that have favored weapon "fist." Of those, two offer alternative options (claw and spear).

Since many of the abilities that reference a deity's favored weapon (such as those from the aforementioned Avenger) make the assumption that they are, in fact wielded weapons, this creates a problematic disconnect since fists are NOT weapons at all, much less wielded weapons.

Player Core 267
The definition of wield only references held items and weapons, and does not seem to account for your own anatomy, such as claw or fist. This leads to problems with abilities that require you to be "wielding" your diety's favored "weapon" when the favored weapon is an unarmed attack of some kind.

Something should be done so that followers of fist deities are not cut off from options that are intended to work with them.

Possible Solutions
- Create specific exceptions where such interactions make no sense or don't function as intended. Avenger in particular is in need of this, though there are likely other cases where a deity's favored weapon is referenced that this causes similar disconnects/problems.
- Errata those half dozen deities that have "fist" as their favored weapon so that they all offer alternatives (that are weapons).
- Clarify that a fist and other unarmed attacks can be or are always "wielded" so as to clear up some corner cases where that distinction is important for abilities to function properly.

Thanks, BigHatMarisa. You summarized the issue perfectly.

As a GM, I'd probably just tell RD to generally ignore that line when it comes to feats and class abilities.

Unfortunately that isn't as likely to happen in rules rigid games or in Pathfinder Society organized play games.

I'd like to see the rules cleaned up and clarified, rather than asking for a houserule at every new table.

Maybe someday I'll find a GM that isn't hyper-focused on using every random house cat as if it was an assassin sent by the Golden League out to get the 'mage'. ;)

Reminds me of a couple GMs I met who claimed their NPCs would nuke any small animal that came anywhere near sensitive areas just because familiars existed.

Made familiars, pest shape, and similar options almost completely worthless. :(

I can't stand GMs who go out of their way to stamp out creativity or to limit fun options for no practical reason.

Unless the NPC in question has a magic skill and makes a successful Recall Knowledge check, or has encountered summoners and eidolons before, that includes GMs who have said NPC gank the summoner in the backline even though the eidolon is in their face.

Similarly, a random nobody John Gatekeeper (only a nobody to you; his family loves him) - while trained in the art of keeping gates and fighting in formation all his well-lived life - would be able to tell via having working eyes that the Summoner and its Eidolon are, in fact, working together in some way. But John Gatekeeper doesn't know diddly squat about the summoning artes - he needs to keep watch on the horizon, not keep his nose in books, after all - and so would likely not know the pretty need-to-know fact that a Summoner and Eidolon share life force. For all he knows, ending you first only breaks the leash you have over that THING you're controlling and would only put him in more danger. That is something that his buddy Mage Manson would probably have to point out to him is a wrong assumption.

Now, he WOULD likely know, through his training, that a mage is something to try and contend with first, and he CAN see you're a mage. Unfortunately, there are at LEAST two...

I wholeheartedly agree with your example. The guard clearly understands that magic is in play but could easily make an incorrect assumption about the nature of said magic. They might well believe the markings to be an indicator of a spell effect cast by a third party, for example.

And one must not forget page 74 of the Lost Omens Travel Guide, which clearly spells out just how common knowledge of magic is in the world of Golarion.

The Travel Guide goes on to state that magic is commonplace with 1 in 5 people having some form of magical capability in most regions. However, practicing spellcasters (those that rise above cantrips or their natural innate abilities) are much rarer, closer to only 1 in 20 people.

And finally, the recently released NPC Core shows us that there are experienced guard and soldier groups are specifically trained to counter spellcasters and supernatural threats. However, they are very rare, and are generally only called in for higher level threats. They certainly are not counted among your typical rank and file soldier or guard unit. A simple guardsmen is unlikely to be trained in magical identification unless he happens to be an elite guard protecting something extremely important AND those who stationed him had reason to believe magic might be used to breech. A royal guard of the kingdom's treasury, or a secret society member protecting a powerful magical artifact, might know the difference between a buff and an eidolon link, but your simple every day street guard likely doesn't.