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Darius Finch

LoreKeeper's page

Goblin Squad Member. RPG Superstar 2013 Dedicated Voter, 2014 Star Voter. Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 4,015 posts (8,833 including aliases). 3 reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 3 Pathfinder Society characters. 23 aliases.


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Jemini's leveled up. Major changes:

HP: 58 to 66
Cha+1: increases initiative, saves, AC, smite, skills
Smite: 3/day
Skills: +1 bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, and use magic device
Level 2 paladin spells: by default prepare litany of righteousness twice

Wealth: no changes (she's roughly at 44,000 counting everything); though if possible I'd like to at least get +1 armor and +1 shield.


Who needs to split the party when you can instead split the party? :P


Hope you had a safe trip. Let's find ourselves some tre- ...exploring!


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Ya, that is exactly the kind of thing that Improvised Weapons are all about. Ask yourself "could Jackie Chan do this?" if the answer is "yes", then you are good to go.

Improvised weapons are really a catch-all term for anything that isn't covered by a normal weapon. This allows you to wield grandfather clocks, throw chamber pots; but it also allows you to wield a sword by the blade and pummel people with the pommel (this would make a 1d8 19-20/x2 slashing longsword act like as an improvised club for 1d6 x2 bludgeoning).

Edit: however, keep in mind that although a bucket on a rope is "like" a meteor hammer - at the same time it is also just a bucket on a rope. As a GM I'd treat it as a 1d4 x2 bludgeoning weapon (with reach if the rope is fairly long).


@Joana: mostly everything, there are a couple of "core" features that the monk keeps (such as stunning fist, evasion, and purity of body). Excerpt from Monk Unfettered:

Quote:
(The) classic monk possesses a number of inherent class features that have been removed in the redesigned monk – maneuver training, high jump, wholeness of body, improved evasion, diamond body, abundant step, diamond soul, empty body, as well as 6 bonus feats. That means a total of 14 class features have been removed, which in turn have been replaced by 11 insights.

Insights are gained at level 1 and every even level (i.e. 11 in total). Naturally the removed class features (other than "Bonus Feats") can be regained manually as insights; but there are also plenty of other options (a total of 152 insights).

Some of the insights are "deep insights" of which a monk only can use a limited number at any given time. At level 1 that is 1. This increases at levels 8 and 16. The insight "contemplation without limit" increases the limit by 1. Deep insights are typically the things that allow interesting things, such as emulating a monk of the empty hands (via "versatile flurry").


@Joana: the character summary is in the profile, though with little explanation for all the abilities (like "monkey's ambition"). He's now a true 3/4 BAB and uses an alternate flurry progression (no pseudo-full-BAB))

Most of his feats are "Extra Insight" (similar to Extra Rogue Talent).

A short summary: sage, bend in the wind, monkey's ambition, versatile flurry, contemplation in the flesh, high jump, (improved) fight without thought

Sage (Ex): a monk with this insight can make Knowledge checks untrained and may use his Wisdom modifier instead of his Intelligence modifier when making Knowledge checks.

Bend in the wind (Ex): a monk with this insight gains Dodge as a bonus feat, at 6th level he additionally gains Mobility as a bonus feat.

Monkey’s ambition (Ex): a monk with this insight gains Catch-Off Guard and Throw Anything as bonus feats.

Versatile flurry (Ex)*: a monk with this insight may use improvised weapons when performing a flurry. A monk may select this insight a second time to flurry with any simple weapon, a third time to flurry any martial weapon, and a fourth time to flurry any exotic weapon. Additional selections of this insight do not count against the number of deep insights applied. A monk must have the monkey’s ambition insight before selecting this insight. This is a deep insight.

Contemplation without limit (Ex): a monk with this insight may apply an additional deep insight.

High jump (Ex): a monk with this insight adds his level to all Acrobatics checks made to jump, both for vertical jumps and horizontal jumps. In addition, he always counts as having a running start when making jump checks using Acrobatics. By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, a monk gains a +20 bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for 1 round.

Fight without thought (Ex)*: when performing a flurry, a monk with this insight may use his Wisdom modifier instead of his Strength modifier on attack rolls until the start of his next turn. A monk must have the sage insight before selecting this insight. A monk must be at least 4th level before selecting this insight. This is a deep insight.

Fight without thought, improved (Ex): a monk who uses the fight without thought insight may use his Wisdom modifier instead of his Strength modifier on all attack rolls (including maneuvers). The monk may spend 1 ki as a swift action to add his Wisdom modifier to all damage rolls for 1 round. A monk must have the fight without thought and sage insights before selecting this insight. A monk must be at least 6th level before selecting this insight.


Nay! It's the song itself. It irritates her to distraction


Hint to permanent solution:
The song "Give me Hope Joana - hope Joana; give me hope Joana, til the morning comes...


Dragonborn3 wrote:
Joana wrote:

LoreKeeper was doing a lot of posting in relation to the Unchained monk and his own 3PP in April and early May, but looks like he hasn't posted anywhere since the 12th.

Dragonborn's around, but he tended to forget about us when we were active. ;P

Who are you again..?

The ghost in the system. Haunts the Paizo forums, but as a consequence is an oracle of the system.


Done.

My monks *do* instant win at level 1, because they capture your heart.


Heeeey :) everybody comes to life! And Joana! You must be keeping a close eye on the boards to be so well informed, good job.

Between Serpent Skull and Savage Tide, I'd definitely would prefer bringing Mahjik (Serpent Skull) back to life.

To that end - as Joana mentioned - I've published my first PDF, Monk Unfettered. I would love to re-create Mahjik within the rules of that book. I'm happy to send Navior a copy "on the house" for that. Or to anybody here who wants to take a look to review it.


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Shisumo wrote:
Ipslore the Red wrote:
graystone wrote:


I recall ranger being in that list ("fighter, barbarian, ranger, etc"). How much dex did he spend on that TWF again?

If we want to look at a tax, how much wisdom tax did the monk have to pay and how did THAT lower it's strength... At BEST it's a wash and with the ranger it's a lose to the monk...

The ranger spent nothing on Dexterity. Combat style feats ignore the prerequisites.
Which was graystone's point... although its an arguable one, since most TWF rangers I've seen still try for at least Dex 15, as waiting for 6th level to get Double Slice (or never getting it at all) is pretty obnoxious for a Strength-oriented build.

Not to mention that rangers - unless they're fighting a favored enemy - do not gain a massive bonus to their maneuvers, so use attack stats similar to a monk (with generally less attacks or attacks less likely to hit).


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Insain Dragoon wrote:
Why is the non-monk attack bonus so low?

Actually I messed up the attack numbers, the monk is +20/+20/+20/+15/+10

Compared to non-monk +25/+20/+15

The stats are calculated correctly with those values though, 76.6 for non-monk and 76.5 for monk


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graystone wrote:

You're only comparing flurry vs single weapons Shisumo. A "fighter, barbarian, ranger, etc" can use two weapons for +23, +23, +18 and +13. So one attack more for the monk at worse numbers. And the monk having free Ki to throw around for an extra attack is iffy as (almost) everything needs Ki now. Drop those numbers by another 2 and you can disarm/trip at 15' (whips).

I'm with Chengar Qordath in thinking monks aren't "especially good at maneuvers compared to other classes".

Any fighter/barbarian that goes this route (TWF) ends up giving up quite a bit of Strength to pay the Dexterity tax, which means less damage overall. The monk stays as good at fighting as before.

The monk might not be especially good; but he isn't particularly bad either.

Let's look at an example, a CMD 33 opponent with the numbers above

Non-monk: +25/+20/+15
Chance to land disarm: 1 - (0.4 * 0.65 * 0.9) = 76.6%

Monk: +25/+20/+15
Chance to land disarm: 1 - (0.65 * 0.65 * 0.65 * 0.9 * 0.95) = 76.5%
Chance to land disarm with ki: 1 - (0.65 * 0.65 * 0.65 * 0.65 * 0.9 * 0.95) = 84.7%

I'd say it is fairly comparable between monk and non-monk.


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Monk's are pretty good with maneuvers, both core and unchained, since both perform maneuvers using full BAB. The added advantage is that monks get many attempts - and often just one success is sufficient to effectively beat an opponent.

Disarm, for example, is not always applicable - but when it applies it has tremendous impact on an encounter. Disarm wizard's staff, or the BBEG's uberweapon - and they are left with vastly reduced potency. Many humanoid encounters don't even have a mundane backup weapon leaving them to fight with unarmed attacks (that they do not have training in). Puny.

Likewise trip, and sunder. Together with disarm these can be applied to all attacks, allowing a core level 8 monk 5 attempts (with ki) in a round. The monk's bonus to these is fairly good, and he only needs to get lucky once to effectively "win" the encounter. The law of numbers means that victory is on the monk's side.


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CWheezy wrote:

Yeah if you could actually fly, it would be cool.

Instead it is a strictly worse pounce, great.

I disagree.

Firstly, it's available from level 5 onward (and by level 6 you can already cover 20ft with it). That is significantly earlier than a barbarian's typical pounce.

Secondly, it can be used at any time inside a flurry, meaning you can perform some attacks - then - flying kick to a different target and perform some more attacks.

Thirdly, from level 15 onwards you can use it twice.

Fourthly, it combos really well with Disorientating Maneuver, granting the same +2 to attack that a pounce(charge) would, but granting that bonus without a penalty to AC, and the bonus lasts until the start of your next turn (meaning AOOs benefit too). As an added bonus, you can trip really well with it (hurricarana!)


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Oliver Volland wrote:
New Review: Monk Unfettered by Henri Hakl Games

Thank you Oliver Volland! In due time I'll amend the PDF with some small corrections/clarifications based on your review.


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Thank you Oliver Volland, your review raises a number of issues. I'll try to address a few of these below.

Quote:
Oh, and did I mention there are 152 chooseable insights available?

You actually made me go back and count them all. I originally kept track of the number of insights (there were initially about 80 or 90), but over time I lost track with the numerous additions.

As a side-note for anybody counting: Oliver Volland counted the various "Elemental" insights as 4 each, as each of those insights comes with an air, earth, fire and water option. Those are mutually exclusive, so Elemental Awakening (air) can be counted as distinct from Elemental Awakening (water) - even though they are presented within a single insight.

Quote:
the Ex-Monk section is contrary to the Beyond Order feat that is introduced later on which does allow non-lawful monks. I'd rule that the feat supercedes, but its not mentioned, and it would be interesting to know what would happen if the character took the feat later on. Will he be a full monk again?

This is a case of a more specific rule trumping the general rule. A monk with Beyond Order cannot be an ex-monk, unless he exceeds the level limit given by Beyond Order. If a monk does become an ex-monk, he comes a non-ex-monk upon taking Beyond Order (provided he complies with the level limits of the feat). He immediately recovers the ability to take monk levels in this case.

Quote:
sometimes the 'Meditation Insight' is named as a requirement, but there are insights like Meditation of the Beast. Do they qualify?

No, they don't. Only the meditation insight can be used to meet the requirements of insights that require the meditation insight.

Quote:
With Drunken Master the penalty is a poison effect. What is the synergy with Diamond Body?

This is an intended interaction. The drunken master penalty can be fully negated with the diamond body insight.

Quote:
are reach melee attacks included in the damage of Elemental Awakening Fire?

No. At least generally. As the text says: "adjacent creatures that strike the monk". So if they happen to strike the monk with a reach weapon while being adjacent to him, then they still take fire damage, otherwise not.

Quote:
Why is Elemental Mastery Water limited to enemies, but Fire isn't?

Essentially a design whim. I like to think of the water element as controlled and mutable with circumstances; whereas the fire element is powerful, brazen and uncontrolled.

Quote:
Why does Faster Movement end with level 17? Wouldn't be +10 feet an acceptable choice?

I would not say no to a player in this situation if I were the GM. That said, the design intention is to accelerate the benefit of fast movement and allow it to stack with other effects (by being an insight bonus it is possible for the monk to benefit, for example, from haste or/and boots of speed.

Quote:
Kyton Pact, fourth line: 50 what? Hp, I assume;

Yes indeed. Kyton pact channels (hit point) damage into wounds.

Quote:
Does Monkey foot count against the movement of the current round or the next round like the feat Step Up does?

The monkey foot insights grants you limited movement during a flurry. There is no hidden cost or penalty (other than getting the insight and using it as one of your deep insights). It has no impact on your next round.

Quote:
Asura Curse and Accurate Self should both be deep insights (they have the asterisk).

Accurate self does say "This is a deep insight" - did you mean a different one?

Asura's curse is not supposed to be a deep insight. The asterisk is in error. I shall fix this in the PDF in due course. (Originally the insight was designed to not cost ki, but be a deep insight instead; apparently I missed cleaning up the * during editing)

Quote:
My two a bit bigger complaint are about the Improved Wholeness of Body Insight, it turns the monk too much into a healer in my eyes

From a balance perspective improved wholeness of body is still slightly weaker than a paladin's lay on hands - while at the same time making use of a similar sized pool of uses and requiring the monk to spend two insights to acquire the ability. With, for example, 16 Wisdom/Charisma respectively a level 10 monk has a ki pool of 8/day and a level 10 paladin can use lay on hands 8/day. However, the monk also needs to use his ki pool to power all his other ki powers, whereas the paladin generally only spends lay on hands uses to lay on hands. Assuming both the monk and the paladin were to spent all their ki/lay-on-hands just for healing, then the paladin will (on average) heal 175 hit points, and the monk 100 hit points.

Quote:
and the synergy of the various Cat-Insights with the feats Piranha Strike and Slashing Grace. I think here a failsave should be added to limit powerbuilding

It is my understanding that Paizo has clarified that various sources that allow Dexterity to be used for damage do not stack (which is certainly the intention here). So there's no particularly great benefit for having both Cat insights as well as Slashing Grace as well as an agile weapon: you'd still only add Dexterity to damage once. Piranha Strike is only the Dexterity-based equivalent of Power Attack. It is a normal addition to the combat repertoire of characters and does not usually significantly alter powerbuilding. (From a statistical point of view I would rarely recommend using Piranha Strike.)


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LoreKeeper wrote:
GarnathFrostmantle wrote:

I have a few issues with this book, some good some bad. Before I review it, I have to state this book is in violations of the Pathfinder compatibility license.

1. No title page. It goes from "cover" straight to introduction page.
2. Missing items from Exhibit A the license agreement.
3. Doesn't state what is IP based on the OGL license.
4. Same note on what is actually Open Game Content

Technically without 2-4, this book isn't PF Compatible.

I will work on a review this weekend.

Hi GarnathFrostmanle

You'll be happy to hear that the PDF has gone through Paizo (and various changes were made to the original submission over several passes between me and Paizo, some of which was with respect to the Pathfinder compatibility licence). They are happy with the final product and consider that it complies with the licence. I will of course immediately rectify any issues in this regard that Paizo may bring to my attention - but to my understanding everything is fine currently.

I look forward to your review :)


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GarnathFrostmantle wrote:

I have a few issues with this book, some good some bad. Before I review it, I have to state this book is in violations of the Pathfinder compatibility license.

1. No title page. It goes from "cover" straight to introduction page.
2. Missing items from Exhibit A the license agreement.
3. Doesn't state what is IP based on the OGL license.
4. Same note on what is actually Open Game Content

Technically without 2-4, this book isn't PF Compatible.

I will work on a review this weekend.

You'll be happy to hear that the PDF has gone through Paizo (and various changes were made to the original submission over several passes between me and Paizo, some of which was with respect to the Pathfinder compatibility licence). They are happy with the final product and consider that it complies with the licence. I will of course immediately rectify any issues in this regard that Paizo may bring to my attention - but to my understanding everything is fine currently.

I look forward to your review :)


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@rainzax:

I applaud the idea, but the moon path monk's 3/4 BAB severely limits their combat potential (unless you grant some sort of virtual BAB bonus when flurrying like the core monk). And the ki powers, while cool, are not sufficient to pick up the slack from the poor combat presence. The ki powers simply don't have enough impact; and even with the expanded ki pool in moon path do not have enough staying power.

You'd need to double the ki pool again (similar to rage rounds in quantity) and have additional ki powers that allow at least a temporary nova of the monk.


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It's been a while, but there finally are a few reviews up for the Monk Unfettered! Including this one at TriangularRoom that shows off a new bit of art :)


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I just realized something else that has been nagging me in the back of my head about the unchained monk that I didn't know to articulate. Until now.

Have a look at these original class features:


  • Still mind
  • Abundant step
  • Diamond body
  • Quivering palm
  • Empty body
  • Tongue of the sun and moon

And here some of the new ones:


  • Elemental fury
  • Insightful wisdom
  • Ki metabolism
  • Water sprint
  • Furious defense
  • Cobra breath
  • Wind jump

Do you see what I see? The original names are beautiful. They evoke a sense of mysticism and eastern eloquence.

The new names?
Elemental fury... there's no sense of harmony, or mastery. This is the kind of thing a non-lawful barbarian would have.
Insightful wisdom... technically correct, but also uninspired. Bland.
Ki metabolism... "ki metabolism" gives you a good hint on what the ability might do. It also is clinical and (as a name) non-thematic.
Water sprint... you cannot get any more literal in a name, in complete contrast to the subtlety of the original names.
Furious defense... because that is what wise men do, they channel their inner rage and burst it forth in a flurry of defensiveness.
Cobra breath... now this is a genuinely good name, for a ninja trick.
Wind jump... yes, that is the kind of thing the master will tell his pupil: "Today, grasshopper, you will learn the mysteries of the... wiiiind juuuumpp."

To be fair, there are some okay names: flawless mind, and one touch. Where flawless mind is acceptable but not outstanding. And one touch is a great name - but also a traditionally famous name; so not something for which Paizo can claim originality or creative credit.


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Jatori wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

Darn, you're the one that is keeping the thread alive!

A friend of mine, Jerall (who also helped me with Monk Unfettered), does something very close to what you described regarding build-based reviews. On his old blog, tenletter, as well as the new one, ruimtekameelperd

Thanks for the shout out, Henri :) However, I did decommission tenletter a little while back and I haven't yet migrated all of the builds across to the new platform. That's because I'm planning to redo some of the character concepts as Unfettered and Unchained. Because I like tinkering.

Ah, I guess I should've made that more obvious. I'm awaiting your build for One Punch Man.


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Darn, you're the one that is keeping the thread alive!

A friend of mine, Jerall (who also helped me with Monk Unfettered), does something very close to what you described regarding build-based reviews. On his old blog, tenletter, as well as the new one, ruimtekameelperd


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the xiao wrote:
This is a remake of my 1st 3rd edition character from... 15 years ago? Damn i'm getting old LOL! And he in retturn was the son of my last 2nd edition character, who could do a lot of attacks and move. I wanted that again and finally I can. Thanks :)

Aww excellent! I still remember my first pen-and-paper character for 3.5 - a barbarian called Lee Knux (it took my GM years to realize it was a play on Lynux). I never had opportunity to play 3.0 or the prior versions (other than what was implemented in Baldur's Gate). But I did play Das Schwarze Auge (a German RPG) years before that.

It's great that you found a variant that works so well for you. See if you can get your GM/table warmed up to it as well.


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the xiao wrote:
How does Janni Rush interacts with Divine Wind? I would assume only on the first attack of the charge, but a comment from the author would be nice.

You're correct - the first attack get's the bonus damage

the xiao wrote:

Jaiden Lee, 8th Level Unfettered Monk

...

That's a nice build on Jaiden Lee. There is one mistake with the flurry: at 8th level you only have three flurry attacks (1 attack at level, 2 at level 4, 3 at level 8, etc).

I also think you're missing the two bonuses to stats from level 4 and 8 - so your Dex could/should be 20. Increasing both attack and damage by another +1. So, three attacks at +12 (1d10+6) at level 8 is pretty good. And two attacks at +12 (2d10+6 1d10+6) when doing a charge. All without items.


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the xiao wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

@xiao:

I really like that you pointed out Ki Craft positively. I was a little worried how it would be received as it opens up strange possibilities. To help out the feat and monks who take it: note that all the magic items in Unfettered Monk only require Craft Wondrous Item and that the creator is a monk - meaning Ki Craft can be used for those items without extra effort (getting the crafting spell cast somehow).

doesn't Ki Craft count only as craft weapons and armors?

Well, not rings and staffs and rods, but

Ki Craft excerpt wrote:
... You are considered to possess the feats Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Arms and Armor for the purpose of ...

So weapons, armor and all wondrous items are fair game.


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@xiao:

I really like that you pointed out Ki Craft positively. I was a little worried how it would be received as it opens up strange possibilities. To help out the feat and monks who take it: note that all the magic items in Unfettered Monk only require Craft Wondrous Item and that the creator is a monk - meaning Ki Craft can be used for those items without extra effort (getting the crafting spell cast somehow).

You also mentioned the feat Style Shift, to alleviate the feat-intensive nature of Style Shift note that it combos really well with Improved Formless Stance.


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the xiao wrote:

That sounds better and works with the feats in the book.

I agree that a monk inspired by buddhist/shaolin monks would be lawful, but then again we have taoist monk who are better represented by a chaotic alignment.
I finished my review. I didn¿t include the redundancy examples since I just found one. Dex to damage during flurry costs two insights, and you can get Dex to damage for AoO for another insight. But if you use Embrace the Cycle, you can always Dex to damage from level 8 on.

Thank you the xiao, that's a great review you have for the Unfettered Monk.

Redundancy can be a problem, but I'm not sure your example counts: AOO Dex damage could be gained at level 1 (at least relevant for those that multiclass into the monk), but the most important difference is that "Embrace the Cycle" is a deep insight. These tend to be really powerful but since you can have very few active at a time it is a matter of being really choosy about them. And making choices is really what the Unfettered Monk is about :)


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Sure, it is easier to just dip into it, along with a feat. I think it is balanced out a little by the class itself being quite generous with insights (11 in total) and as a rule the insights are better than a feat.

True, the cost of 4 feats is steep. However, to me that is a fair price for being a non-lawful monk. Naturally the game is about having fun with your friends, so your table can houserule it to be more lenient.

I propose this alternative: a neutral monk's "monk level" follows the 3/4 progression and a chaotic monk's "monk level" follows the 1/2 progression. This only has an effect for insights that specifically call out the monk level. For example, a 12th level monk with wholeness of body would heal 12 hp if lawful, 9 hp if neutral, and 6 hp if chaotic.


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Oliver Volland wrote:
Lars Lundberg 419 wrote:

Any of you reviewers out there willing to pass along information on the best way to contact you for a review? It always feels awkward to bug you guys to read our stuff so I would like to know the way to present it to you in the most palatable fashion possible...its kind of like asking for a first date.

My palms are sweaty just thinking about it.

If someone wants me to review something, just send me a PM. There are some topics like psionic I haven't read anything about yet, so I'd need basic material first before I can look into specific archtypes or something like that, but I think most things should be doable for me.

You don't have to tell me twice :)


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the xiao wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:


I'm looking forward to the review. If you don't mind me asking, what design decisions did and did not sit well with you?
Basically, alignment and costs of some abilities and some redundancy which I will expand in my review.

Ah yes, I am personally of the opinion that the (normal) monk should be lawful. To me the class instill a sense of discipline and gravity that is best reflected by the lawful alignment. That said, I agree there is a space for non-lawful monks (and that is why I included the Beyond Order feat).


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Hoorah! The Monk Unfettered has its first review (thank you TriangularRoom). After reading it I thought I should share what is meant by deep insights that are mentioned in the review.

Deep insights are particularly powerful insights. Unlike, say, advanced rogue talents, deep insights can be taken from level 1 - however there is a limit to how many of them the monk may have active at a time. At level 1 only one deep insight can be used - but increasing levels and certain other options (feats, insights, etc) allow the monk to use more deep insights simultaneously.


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Kirth Gersen wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

the vast majority of class abilities are rolled into insights (similar to rage powers and rogue talents).

That's much the direction I took with the "Kirthfinder" monk as well. Great minds!

You know it!

I've just had a good look at the Kirthfinder monk, there are some other parallels where we have different design details but similar overall intentions. For example, the Kirthfinder monk's flurry is a full-BAB but the iterative attacks never have a penalty of greater than -5. In contrast, the Unfettered Monk retained 3/4-BAB even when flurrying, but none of the attacks take a penalty and they have a faster progression.

For example, at 12th level:

Kirthfinder monk: +12/+7/+7
Unfettered monk: +9/+9/+9/+9

The unfettered monk doesn't use ki spells like the Kirthfinder monk (though some insights duplicate spell powers), however the list of insights is truly massive well in excess of 100 insights and some of them expose rather exotic powers.

Partial text from "Overwhelming Spirit" insight wrote:
Overwhelming spirit (Ex)*: shaken enemies within 10 ft of a monk with this insight remain shaken even if the duration of the shaken condition has expired. At 8th level and every 4 levels thereafter the range increases by 5 ft up to a maximum of 30 ft at 20th level.

Edit: I noticed another overlap between Kirthfinder and Unfettered: Kirthfinder provides some class-specific favored class bonuses for the monk. The Unfettered Monk does something similar, but has a whole section dedicated to it, exposing just shy of 30 alternate favored class bonuses.


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the xiao wrote:
I bought this on a whim along the Pathfinder Unchained. I also have the Talented Monk and the follow-up. I must say that while I really dont like some of the design desicions, the Unfettered Monk lets me create MOST monk characters I would like to create, unlike the core unchained and talented. I will do a review after I try a couple of builds.

I'm looking forward to the review. If you don't mind me asking, what design decisions did and did not sit well with you?

Regarding monk diversity: yes, it was a design goal to be both extremely flexible as well as cover as many possibilities that I could think of. If you have some great ideas that aren't covered yet I might design them into the PDF and release them as an update - so don't hesitate to let me know and discuss.


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CWheezy wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

Con is the tertiary stat for battle oracles, because you still need a minimum of 14 to cast your spells,

You need a minimum of 11 to cast level 1 spells man. You really do not need much charisma, as a battle oracle you will never cast a spell that has a save DC

Not to mention that buying a +2 (or higher) headband of Charisma will also give you access to the higher level spells.


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Insain Dragoon wrote:

@Anyone who likes unarmed strikes, Third Party Material, and hates the Amulet of Many Fists

In the upcoming supplement book from Amora Games for the Liber Influxus Communis is an item tentatively called a "Spirit Focus" that is meant for you.

I hope you guys like it.

Alternatively, the Monk Unfettered has a lot(!) of monk options including, but not limited to, allowing Dexterity or Wisdom focused monks; and introducing a wondrous item that picks up where the amulet of mighty fists leaves of.


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Rynjin wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Tels wrote:
Nicos wrote:
There is a FAQ saying taht is incorrect.

Please link to the FAQ that clarifies that unarmed strikes count as either a natural weapon or a manufactured weapon for the purpose of haste or similar spells and effects that fail to possesses language otherwise including unarmed strikes in their effects.

As far as I know, the only FAQs that skirt around this issue is the one on Feral Combat Training and the one on a Monk's extra attack from Ki stacking with the extra attack from haste.

Good enough?
That's the same FAQ he said wasn't good enough just five posts before yours...

Perhaps your page is different than mine, because 5 posts above mine isn't even a post by him, and the one above that (#6) doesn't mention it at all that I see.

I believe he rejects it because the FAQ does not specify it includes unarmed flurries. (Beweaponed flurries are of course fine.)

That said, I also think it is nonsense to argue about it and that haste works on a monk's unarmed flurry.


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Malwing wrote:
Just did a long one. Spheres of Power. Its five stars and a tough contender for best product ever.

Similar to Oliver, I've been convinced and will pick up Spheres of Power for myself


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AndIMustMask wrote:
@lorekeeper: your tiger vs dragon thing got me thinking--going without dragon style REALLY hurts your damage on the unarmed side, and you cant take both without MoMS (iirc, one of the few archetypes that actually still work with unchained monk)

I disagree, see for example: a 22 Str monk with Dragon Style gets a nice +3 to his damage. That's fairly decent. But in the equivalent situation a Tiger Style monk would have +3 to attack. The rough guideline that I follow is that a +1 to attack is worth +2 to damage - that is a rather reliable rule of thumb statistically (and also reflected in feat chains, see for example Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, etc). By that rule, Tiger Style is a net +6 to damage compared to the +3 from Dragon Style.

As an added bonus Tiger Style grants a form of pounce. This means that together with the flying kick style strike you can get a lot of mobility going in combat: potentially two movements combined with a flurry in a single round.

Furthermore, Tiger Style gets its benefits from having the Power Attack feat - this means you only need 13 Str to get it to work. This in turn means you can use Tiger Style very well with a Dex-based monk and thereby retain the same or better AC than a Str-based monk even when using Tiger Style. A Wisdom-based monk (see Wise Punch Man) can also do very well with a Tiger Style approach.

There are of course advantages and disadvantages to either approach, and some situations will favor the one over the other - and vice versa. But the prevalence of Dragon Style is, in my opinion, unfounded; Tiger Style is an effective option that deserves a bit more attention than it receives.

...

PS - Wise Punch Man is an example of great defenses on the Unchained Monk. He deals significantly less damage than a pure damage build, but he offers a lot of battlefield control and a rather large ki pool. If refocused to use Tiger Style he gives up some control power, but adds formidable damage to good control and good defenses.


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Dabbler wrote:

Certainly, here’s the back of my envelope:

Let’s assume a 10th level monk with 20 Strength (16 +2 levels +2 Belt) and Power Attacking. Assume 1/3 WBL for weapon, which is 20,000gp.

Unarmed monk is attacking for 1d10 base damage, and can afford a +2 AoMF. That gives him +7 static bonus, then Power Attack for +6, and assuming Improved Critical a 10% threat chance. That gives us 18.5 x 1.1 = 20.35 before we factor odds to hit.
Armed monk with a temple sword has only 1d8 base damage, and can afford a +3 weapon. He’s using it two-handed so he gets +7 from Strength and +3 from the weapon for +10. Then he’s using Power Attack for +9, and the Improved Critical gives him a 20% threat chance. That gives us 23.5 x 1.2 = 28.2 before we factor in odds to hit – which are better for this monk as he has an extra +1 from his weapon and can take Furious Focus to make his first attack with no penalty from Power Attack.

So quite a difference. Even if the unarmed monk uses a monk’s robe (damage to 2d6), and a feat chain like Dragon Style to add 1.5x strength bonus damage, he caps at 22 x 1.1 = 24.2. The armed monk is both more accurate and does more damage.

Although true it's not like the unarmed version is extremely far behind the weapon version, and all the style strikes require unarmed attacks - so that would mess with the weapon users karma a bit.

Instead of Dragon Style I think that Tiger Style might be better by negating the need to take an attack penalty to Power Attack.


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Shisumo wrote:
I'm the only one who has posted anything even close to an actual side-by-side comparison, and the back-of-the-envelope calculations didn't really seem to support the "armed is better" hypothesis.

I posted Wise Punch Man :)


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John Lynch 106 wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:
I did look into it. The problem is that channeling is only acquired at level 7, and general feats under VMC only at level 9 and 13 after that. So you'd have to wait until level 13 to get Guided Hand (which allows you to attack with Wisdom).
Retrain level 1/human feat?

!!

I didn't consider it like that. Then maybe it's possible. You still have to be faithful to the plan to at least level 7 to come fully "online". But I'm patient that way.


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David knott 242 wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

I've made an Unchained monk (monk 11 / cleric 1) that focuses on unarmed strikes. A couple of neat features:


  • SAD monk, heavy emphasis on Wisdom attribute
  • At level 1 take a short detour into cleric of Irori to acquire Guided Hand, so attacks are now calculated on Wisdom
  • Trait: wisdom in the flesh (acrobatics)
  • Large ki pool
  • Pick flying kick style strike first; it is used to combo with Disorientating Maneuver
  • Combat style mastery, to switch between boar style and mantis style on the fly
  • Mantis style and high Wisdom grant a Stunning Fist DC of 25
  • Medusa's Wrath as monk 10 bonus feat: stronger than improved critical (unarmed strike) with the new flurry and high chance to stun
  • Unarmed damage is not emphasized, but battle field control is significant
  • The 1 level in cleric grants protection from and remove fear
  • The 1 level in cleric grants small boost to Will save, coupled with great Wisdom for a good overall Will save
  • Original draft used only boar style to grant slashing/piercing/bludgeoning unarmed strikes, and the ability to demoralize for free when striking a foe twice

** spoiler omitted **...

Did you try building this monk as a VMC cleirc? You would lose the protection from evil and remove feat spells along with three feats. Would it be worth it for one more actual monk level?

I did look into it. The problem is that channeling is only acquired at level 7, and general feats under VMC only at level 9 and 13 after that. So you'd have to wait until level 13 to get Guided Hand (which allows you to attack with Wisdom).


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You can also skip direct stat-based increases to damage and make use of Tiger Style instead. Take an AC penalty instead of attack penalty and get Power Attack damage bonus on your attacks. Works particularly great with Wisdom or Dexterity focused monks (such as Wise Punch Man posted above) - you only need enough Strength for Power Attack.


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PlagueCrafter wrote:
I've searched around the thread and haven't found a great answer to this: Can I use the Unchained Monk to be an absolute Grapple monstrosity?

I've not run all the numbers, but something that definitely helps is that the Unchained monk has full-BAB, so his CMD is higher - makes it that much harder to escape his grapples.


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I've made an Unchained monk (monk 11 / cleric 1) that focuses on unarmed strikes. A couple of neat features:


  • SAD monk, heavy emphasis on Wisdom attribute
  • At level 1 take a short detour into cleric of Irori to acquire Guided Hand, so attacks are now calculated on Wisdom
  • Trait: wisdom in the flesh (acrobatics)
  • Large ki pool
  • Pick flying kick style strike first; it is used to combo with Disorientating Maneuver
  • Combat style mastery, to switch between boar style and mantis style on the fly
  • Mantis style and high Wisdom grant a Stunning Fist DC of 25
  • Medusa's Wrath as monk 10 bonus feat: stronger than improved critical (unarmed strike) with the new flurry and high chance to stun
  • Unarmed damage is not emphasized, but battle field control is significant
  • The 1 level in cleric grants protection from and remove fear
  • The 1 level in cleric grants small boost to Will save, coupled with great Wisdom for a good overall Will save
  • Original draft used only boar style to grant slashing/piercing/bludgeoning unarmed strikes, and the ability to demoralize for free when striking a foe twice

Wise Punch Man:

Wise Punch Man
Male human cleric of Irori 1 Unchained monk 11
LG medium humanoid
Init +2; Senses Perception +22

-=DEFENSE=-
AC 35, touch 27, flat 31 armor +4; dex +3; wis +7; dodge +1; monk +4; natural +4; deflect +2
HP 110 1d8 + 11d10 + 36
Fort +14; Ref +13; Will +15
Special still mind, improved evasion

-=OFFENSE=-
Speed 60ft
Melee unarmed strike +21 (2d8+6 19-20/x2) Type: bludgeoning/slashing; Size: Medium; Wgt: -
Melee unarmed flurry +21/+21/+21/+16/+11 (2d8+6 19-20/x2) Type: bludgeoning/slashing; Size: Medium; Wgt: -
Special boar style, mantis style, flying kick, one touch, stunning fist DC 25 (13/day), medusa's wrath

-=OTHER=-
Str 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 25, Cha 8 20pt buy, racial bonus on Wisdom
BAB +11; CMB +18; CMD 41
Feats channel smite, guided hand (unarmed), improved unarmed strike, stunning fist, dodge, weapon focus (unarmed), combat reflexes, disorienting maneuver, boar style, improved trip, mantis style, combat style master, medusa's wrath
Traits Quain martial artist +1 unarmed strike damage, Wisdom in the Flesh (acrobatics) becomes a class skill, uses Wisdom
Special aura (lawful good), channel energy 1d6 2/day, domains (knowledge, law), improved evasion, fast movement (30 ft), ki pool 12/day (magic, silver, cold-iron, lawful), still mind, purity of body
Ki power qinggong power (barkskin), furious defense, high jump, abundant step
Style strike flying kick, foot stomp
Favored class monk
Favored class bonus 12hp
Skills Skills per level: 5 (4 class + 1 human); Armor check penalty: 0
Trained acrobatics +27(12); climb +9(3); diplomacy +9(4); intimidate +17(12); perception +22(12); sense motive +22(12); swim +9(3)
Untrained bluff 2

Spells
Orisons prepared: detect magic, guidance, stabilize
Level 1 prepared: protection from evil, endure elements, remove fear, comprehend languages (domain)

Equipment
Wealth 7000gp


  • bracers of armor +4 (16000)
  • monk's robe (13000)
  • headband of wisdom +4 (16000)
  • belt of perfection +2 (16000)
  • amulet of mighty fists +2 (16000)
  • cloak of resistance +3 (9000)
  • boots of elven kind (2500)
  • ring of protection +2 (8000)
  • circlet of persuasion (4500)
  • ...sundry adventuring gear...


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Shisumo wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

we need a "normal" unarmed strike monk example.

I must confess I don't fully understand what you mean by "normal" in this context.

Dragon Style is useful as a baseline because it's entirely passive and nonreactive; it doesn't require the opponent to do anything and it doesn't rely on successful (or unsuccessful, for that matter) actions on the part of the PC himself to show its benefits. Snake Style may be awesome, for instance, but it is hard to demonstrate that without an actual gameplay experience to show how many times you get to make your Snake Fang counterattack or use the Snake Style Sense Motive "dodge."

I'm saying the unarmed strike damage is inflated by the Dragon Style. This is of course a good thing for the specific character; but it is important to consider "normal" unarmed monk damage (the baseline without Dragon Style). There are *a lot* of good styles available. Picking the one style that is the most beneficial for raw unarmed damage is not suitable to understand the baseline for Unchained monks.


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You should also show a non-Dragon-Style monk. There are plenty of good styles out there - we need a "normal" unarmed strike monk example.

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