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Man, I've survived a hectic last week. I'm back again.
Regarding Untari's jump: the DC 36 jump is only if she wants to land straight up ontop with no other issues. She technically only needs to make the leap to the point where she can claw onto the ledge and scrabble up the rest; instead of a 9ft clean vertical jump she only needs maybe a 5ft or 6ft reaching jump.
Note that it isn't a straight buff. The class is not nearly as attractive for dipping as you can only get the base feats of a style without prerequisites; the follow-up feats are not covered.
The master of many styles is much better now for people that actually stick to the class; while also keeping sensible level progression balance - no longer can you get feats at level 2 that were intended for level 9 play.
I quite like the proposed system; but it probably needs adjustment: "prowess" probably needs to cover "free" attributes at higher tiers; since using the proposed system doesn't really cater for belts and headbands of perfection. It costs 18 progression steps to get +6 to all attributes - that leaves practically nothing for armor, shield, resistance, weapon, etc.
I propose splitting it into "mental prowess" and "physical prowess" and have each automatically affect all 3 mental / physical stats per progression level.
As a side note: Jemini wears a mithril (chain)shirt 1100gp, not elven chainmail - leaving her with 14225gp to play with.
Jemini's leveled up. Major changes:
HP: 58 to 66
Wealth: no changes (she's roughly at 44,000 counting everything); though if possible I'd like to at least get +1 armor and +1 shield.
Ya, that is exactly the kind of thing that Improvised Weapons are all about. Ask yourself "could Jackie Chan do this?" if the answer is "yes", then you are good to go.
Improvised weapons are really a catch-all term for anything that isn't covered by a normal weapon. This allows you to wield grandfather clocks, throw chamber pots; but it also allows you to wield a sword by the blade and pummel people with the pommel (this would make a 1d8 19-20/x2 slashing longsword act like as an improvised club for 1d6 x2 bludgeoning).
Edit: however, keep in mind that although a bucket on a rope is "like" a meteor hammer - at the same time it is also just a bucket on a rope. As a GM I'd treat it as a 1d4 x2 bludgeoning weapon (with reach if the rope is fairly long).
@Joana: mostly everything, there are a couple of "core" features that the monk keeps (such as stunning fist, evasion, and purity of body). Excerpt from Monk Unfettered:
(The) classic monk possesses a number of inherent class features that have been removed in the redesigned monk – maneuver training, high jump, wholeness of body, improved evasion, diamond body, abundant step, diamond soul, empty body, as well as 6 bonus feats. That means a total of 14 class features have been removed, which in turn have been replaced by 11 insights.
Insights are gained at level 1 and every even level (i.e. 11 in total). Naturally the removed class features (other than "Bonus Feats") can be regained manually as insights; but there are also plenty of other options (a total of 152 insights).
Some of the insights are "deep insights" of which a monk only can use a limited number at any given time. At level 1 that is 1. This increases at levels 8 and 16. The insight "contemplation without limit" increases the limit by 1. Deep insights are typically the things that allow interesting things, such as emulating a monk of the empty hands (via "versatile flurry").
@Joana: the character summary is in the profile, though with little explanation for all the abilities (like "monkey's ambition"). He's now a true 3/4 BAB and uses an alternate flurry progression (no pseudo-full-BAB))
Most of his feats are "Extra Insight" (similar to Extra Rogue Talent).
A short summary: sage, bend in the wind, monkey's ambition, versatile flurry, contemplation in the flesh, high jump, (improved) fight without thought
Sage (Ex): a monk with this insight can make Knowledge checks untrained and may use his Wisdom modifier instead of his Intelligence modifier when making Knowledge checks.
Bend in the wind (Ex): a monk with this insight gains Dodge as a bonus feat, at 6th level he additionally gains Mobility as a bonus feat.
Monkey’s ambition (Ex): a monk with this insight gains Catch-Off Guard and Throw Anything as bonus feats.
Versatile flurry (Ex)*: a monk with this insight may use improvised weapons when performing a flurry. A monk may select this insight a second time to flurry with any simple weapon, a third time to flurry any martial weapon, and a fourth time to flurry any exotic weapon. Additional selections of this insight do not count against the number of deep insights applied. A monk must have the monkey’s ambition insight before selecting this insight. This is a deep insight.
Contemplation without limit (Ex): a monk with this insight may apply an additional deep insight.
High jump (Ex): a monk with this insight adds his level to all Acrobatics checks made to jump, both for vertical jumps and horizontal jumps. In addition, he always counts as having a running start when making jump checks using Acrobatics. By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, a monk gains a +20 bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for 1 round.
Fight without thought (Ex)*: when performing a flurry, a monk with this insight may use his Wisdom modifier instead of his Strength modifier on attack rolls until the start of his next turn. A monk must have the sage insight before selecting this insight. A monk must be at least 4th level before selecting this insight. This is a deep insight.
Fight without thought, improved (Ex): a monk who uses the fight without thought insight may use his Wisdom modifier instead of his Strength modifier on all attack rolls (including maneuvers). The monk may spend 1 ki as a swift action to add his Wisdom modifier to all damage rolls for 1 round. A monk must have the fight without thought and sage insights before selecting this insight. A monk must be at least 6th level before selecting this insight.
The ghost in the system. Haunts the Paizo forums, but as a consequence is an oracle of the system.
Heeeey :) everybody comes to life! And Joana! You must be keeping a close eye on the boards to be so well informed, good job.
Between Serpent Skull and Savage Tide, I'd definitely would prefer bringing Mahjik (Serpent Skull) back to life.
To that end - as Joana mentioned - I've published my first PDF, Monk Unfettered. I would love to re-create Mahjik within the rules of that book. I'm happy to send Navior a copy "on the house" for that. Or to anybody here who wants to take a look to review it.
Not to mention that rangers - unless they're fighting a favored enemy - do not gain a massive bonus to their maneuvers, so use attack stats similar to a monk (with generally less attacks or attacks less likely to hit).
Any fighter/barbarian that goes this route (TWF) ends up giving up quite a bit of Strength to pay the Dexterity tax, which means less damage overall. The monk stays as good at fighting as before.
The monk might not be especially good; but he isn't particularly bad either.
Let's look at an example, a CMD 33 opponent with the numbers above
I'd say it is fairly comparable between monk and non-monk.
Monk's are pretty good with maneuvers, both core and unchained, since both perform maneuvers using full BAB. The added advantage is that monks get many attempts - and often just one success is sufficient to effectively beat an opponent.
Disarm, for example, is not always applicable - but when it applies it has tremendous impact on an encounter. Disarm wizard's staff, or the BBEG's uberweapon - and they are left with vastly reduced potency. Many humanoid encounters don't even have a mundane backup weapon leaving them to fight with unarmed attacks (that they do not have training in). Puny.
Likewise trip, and sunder. Together with disarm these can be applied to all attacks, allowing a core level 8 monk 5 attempts (with ki) in a round. The monk's bonus to these is fairly good, and he only needs to get lucky once to effectively "win" the encounter. The law of numbers means that victory is on the monk's side.
Firstly, it's available from level 5 onward (and by level 6 you can already cover 20ft with it). That is significantly earlier than a barbarian's typical pounce.
Secondly, it can be used at any time inside a flurry, meaning you can perform some attacks - then - flying kick to a different target and perform some more attacks.
Thirdly, from level 15 onwards you can use it twice.
Fourthly, it combos really well with Disorientating Maneuver, granting the same +2 to attack that a pounce(charge) would, but granting that bonus without a penalty to AC, and the bonus lasts until the start of your next turn (meaning AOOs benefit too). As an added bonus, you can trip really well with it (hurricarana!)
Thank you Oliver Volland, your review raises a number of issues. I'll try to address a few of these below.
Oh, and did I mention there are 152 chooseable insights available?
You actually made me go back and count them all. I originally kept track of the number of insights (there were initially about 80 or 90), but over time I lost track with the numerous additions.
As a side-note for anybody counting: Oliver Volland counted the various "Elemental" insights as 4 each, as each of those insights comes with an air, earth, fire and water option. Those are mutually exclusive, so Elemental Awakening (air) can be counted as distinct from Elemental Awakening (water) - even though they are presented within a single insight.
the Ex-Monk section is contrary to the Beyond Order feat that is introduced later on which does allow non-lawful monks. I'd rule that the feat supercedes, but its not mentioned, and it would be interesting to know what would happen if the character took the feat later on. Will he be a full monk again?
This is a case of a more specific rule trumping the general rule. A monk with Beyond Order cannot be an ex-monk, unless he exceeds the level limit given by Beyond Order. If a monk does become an ex-monk, he comes a non-ex-monk upon taking Beyond Order (provided he complies with the level limits of the feat). He immediately recovers the ability to take monk levels in this case.
sometimes the 'Meditation Insight' is named as a requirement, but there are insights like Meditation of the Beast. Do they qualify?
No, they don't. Only the meditation insight can be used to meet the requirements of insights that require the meditation insight.
With Drunken Master the penalty is a poison effect. What is the synergy with Diamond Body?
This is an intended interaction. The drunken master penalty can be fully negated with the diamond body insight.
are reach melee attacks included in the damage of Elemental Awakening Fire?
No. At least generally. As the text says: "adjacent creatures that strike the monk". So if they happen to strike the monk with a reach weapon while being adjacent to him, then they still take fire damage, otherwise not.
Why is Elemental Mastery Water limited to enemies, but Fire isn't?
Essentially a design whim. I like to think of the water element as controlled and mutable with circumstances; whereas the fire element is powerful, brazen and uncontrolled.
Why does Faster Movement end with level 17? Wouldn't be +10 feet an acceptable choice?
I would not say no to a player in this situation if I were the GM. That said, the design intention is to accelerate the benefit of fast movement and allow it to stack with other effects (by being an insight bonus it is possible for the monk to benefit, for example, from haste or/and boots of speed.
Kyton Pact, fourth line: 50 what? Hp, I assume;
Yes indeed. Kyton pact channels (hit point) damage into wounds.
Does Monkey foot count against the movement of the current round or the next round like the feat Step Up does?
The monkey foot insights grants you limited movement during a flurry. There is no hidden cost or penalty (other than getting the insight and using it as one of your deep insights). It has no impact on your next round.
Asura Curse and Accurate Self should both be deep insights (they have the asterisk).
Accurate self does say "This is a deep insight" - did you mean a different one?
Asura's curse is not supposed to be a deep insight. The asterisk is in error. I shall fix this in the PDF in due course. (Originally the insight was designed to not cost ki, but be a deep insight instead; apparently I missed cleaning up the * during editing)
My two a bit bigger complaint are about the Improved Wholeness of Body Insight, it turns the monk too much into a healer in my eyes
From a balance perspective improved wholeness of body is still slightly weaker than a paladin's lay on hands - while at the same time making use of a similar sized pool of uses and requiring the monk to spend two insights to acquire the ability. With, for example, 16 Wisdom/Charisma respectively a level 10 monk has a ki pool of 8/day and a level 10 paladin can use lay on hands 8/day. However, the monk also needs to use his ki pool to power all his other ki powers, whereas the paladin generally only spends lay on hands uses to lay on hands. Assuming both the monk and the paladin were to spent all their ki/lay-on-hands just for healing, then the paladin will (on average) heal 175 hit points, and the monk 100 hit points.
and the synergy of the various Cat-Insights with the feats Piranha Strike and Slashing Grace. I think here a failsave should be added to limit powerbuilding
It is my understanding that Paizo has clarified that various sources that allow Dexterity to be used for damage do not stack (which is certainly the intention here). So there's no particularly great benefit for having both Cat insights as well as Slashing Grace as well as an agile weapon: you'd still only add Dexterity to damage once. Piranha Strike is only the Dexterity-based equivalent of Power Attack. It is a normal addition to the combat repertoire of characters and does not usually significantly alter powerbuilding. (From a statistical point of view I would rarely recommend using Piranha Strike.)
You'll be happy to hear that the PDF has gone through Paizo (and various changes were made to the original submission over several passes between me and Paizo, some of which was with respect to the Pathfinder compatibility licence). They are happy with the final product and consider that it complies with the licence. I will of course immediately rectify any issues in this regard that Paizo may bring to my attention - but to my understanding everything is fine currently.
I look forward to your review :)
I applaud the idea, but the moon path monk's 3/4 BAB severely limits their combat potential (unless you grant some sort of virtual BAB bonus when flurrying like the core monk). And the ki powers, while cool, are not sufficient to pick up the slack from the poor combat presence. The ki powers simply don't have enough impact; and even with the expanded ki pool in moon path do not have enough staying power.
You'd need to double the ki pool again (similar to rage rounds in quantity) and have additional ki powers that allow at least a temporary nova of the monk.
I just realized something else that has been nagging me in the back of my head about the unchained monk that I didn't know to articulate. Until now.
Have a look at these original class features:
And here some of the new ones:
Do you see what I see? The original names are beautiful. They evoke a sense of mysticism and eastern eloquence.
The new names?
To be fair, there are some okay names: flawless mind, and one touch. Where flawless mind is acceptable but not outstanding. And one touch is a great name - but also a traditionally famous name; so not something for which Paizo can claim originality or creative credit.
Ah, I guess I should've made that more obvious. I'm awaiting your build for One Punch Man.
the xiao wrote:
This is a remake of my 1st 3rd edition character from... 15 years ago? Damn i'm getting old LOL! And he in retturn was the son of my last 2nd edition character, who could do a lot of attacks and move. I wanted that again and finally I can. Thanks :)
Aww excellent! I still remember my first pen-and-paper character for 3.5 - a barbarian called Lee Knux (it took my GM years to realize it was a play on Lynux). I never had opportunity to play 3.0 or the prior versions (other than what was implemented in Baldur's Gate). But I did play Das Schwarze Auge (a German RPG) years before that.
It's great that you found a variant that works so well for you. See if you can get your GM/table warmed up to it as well.
the xiao wrote:
How does Janni Rush interacts with Divine Wind? I would assume only on the first attack of the charge, but a comment from the author would be nice.
You're correct - the first attack get's the bonus damage
the xiao wrote:
That's a nice build on Jaiden Lee. There is one mistake with the flurry: at 8th level you only have three flurry attacks (1 attack at level, 2 at level 4, 3 at level 8, etc).
I also think you're missing the two bonuses to stats from level 4 and 8 - so your Dex could/should be 20. Increasing both attack and damage by another +1. So, three attacks at +12 (1d10+6) at level 8 is pretty good. And two attacks at +12 (2d10+6 1d10+6) when doing a charge. All without items.
the xiao wrote:
Well, not rings and staffs and rods, but
Ki Craft excerpt wrote:
... You are considered to possess the feats Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Arms and Armor for the purpose of ...
So weapons, armor and all wondrous items are fair game.
I really like that you pointed out Ki Craft positively. I was a little worried how it would be received as it opens up strange possibilities. To help out the feat and monks who take it: note that all the magic items in Unfettered Monk only require Craft Wondrous Item and that the creator is a monk - meaning Ki Craft can be used for those items without extra effort (getting the crafting spell cast somehow).
You also mentioned the feat Style Shift, to alleviate the feat-intensive nature of Style Shift note that it combos really well with Improved Formless Stance.
the xiao wrote:
Thank you the xiao, that's a great review you have for the Unfettered Monk.
Redundancy can be a problem, but I'm not sure your example counts: AOO Dex damage could be gained at level 1 (at least relevant for those that multiclass into the monk), but the most important difference is that "Embrace the Cycle" is a deep insight. These tend to be really powerful but since you can have very few active at a time it is a matter of being really choosy about them. And making choices is really what the Unfettered Monk is about :)
Sure, it is easier to just dip into it, along with a feat. I think it is balanced out a little by the class itself being quite generous with insights (11 in total) and as a rule the insights are better than a feat.
True, the cost of 4 feats is steep. However, to me that is a fair price for being a non-lawful monk. Naturally the game is about having fun with your friends, so your table can houserule it to be more lenient.
I propose this alternative: a neutral monk's "monk level" follows the 3/4 progression and a chaotic monk's "monk level" follows the 1/2 progression. This only has an effect for insights that specifically call out the monk level. For example, a 12th level monk with wholeness of body would heal 12 hp if lawful, 9 hp if neutral, and 6 hp if chaotic.
Oliver Volland wrote:
You don't have to tell me twice :)
the xiao wrote:
Ah yes, I am personally of the opinion that the (normal) monk should be lawful. To me the class instill a sense of discipline and gravity that is best reflected by the lawful alignment. That said, I agree there is a space for non-lawful monks (and that is why I included the Beyond Order feat).
Hoorah! The Monk Unfettered has its first review (thank you TriangularRoom). After reading it I thought I should share what is meant by deep insights that are mentioned in the review.
Deep insights are particularly powerful insights. Unlike, say, advanced rogue talents, deep insights can be taken from level 1 - however there is a limit to how many of them the monk may have active at a time. At level 1 only one deep insight can be used - but increasing levels and certain other options (feats, insights, etc) allow the monk to use more deep insights simultaneously.
Kirth Gersen wrote:
You know it!
I've just had a good look at the Kirthfinder monk, there are some other parallels where we have different design details but similar overall intentions. For example, the Kirthfinder monk's flurry is a full-BAB but the iterative attacks never have a penalty of greater than -5. In contrast, the Unfettered Monk retained 3/4-BAB even when flurrying, but none of the attacks take a penalty and they have a faster progression.
For example, at 12th level:
Kirthfinder monk: +12/+7/+7
The unfettered monk doesn't use ki spells like the Kirthfinder monk (though some insights duplicate spell powers), however the list of insights is truly massive well in excess of 100 insights and some of them expose rather exotic powers.
Partial text from "Overwhelming Spirit" insight wrote:
Overwhelming spirit (Ex)*: shaken enemies within 10 ft of a monk with this insight remain shaken even if the duration of the shaken condition has expired. At 8th level and every 4 levels thereafter the range increases by 5 ft up to a maximum of 30 ft at 20th level.
Edit: I noticed another overlap between Kirthfinder and Unfettered: Kirthfinder provides some class-specific favored class bonuses for the monk. The Unfettered Monk does something similar, but has a whole section dedicated to it, exposing just shy of 30 alternate favored class bonuses.
the xiao wrote:
I bought this on a whim along the Pathfinder Unchained. I also have the Talented Monk and the follow-up. I must say that while I really dont like some of the design desicions, the Unfettered Monk lets me create MOST monk characters I would like to create, unlike the core unchained and talented. I will do a review after I try a couple of builds.
I'm looking forward to the review. If you don't mind me asking, what design decisions did and did not sit well with you?
Regarding monk diversity: yes, it was a design goal to be both extremely flexible as well as cover as many possibilities that I could think of. If you have some great ideas that aren't covered yet I might design them into the PDF and release them as an update - so don't hesitate to let me know and discuss.
Not to mention that buying a +2 (or higher) headband of Charisma will also give you access to the higher level spells.
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Alternatively, the Monk Unfettered has a lot(!) of monk options including, but not limited to, allowing Dexterity or Wisdom focused monks; and introducing a wondrous item that picks up where the amulet of mighty fists leaves of.