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Darius Finch

LoreKeeper's page

Goblin Squad Member. RPG Superstar 2013 Dedicated Voter, 2014 Star Voter. Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 3,934 posts (8,674 including aliases). 3 reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 3 Pathfinder Society characters. 22 aliases.


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Jatori wrote:
Kesh Vantalis wrote:

Mummy Mimi Modo!

I thought that was the party rallying cry...

Why not both?

Mummy Mimi Modo ASSEMBLE!


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Obviaaaaaas


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@Paulicus:

Don't forget that although lesser demons are fairly classically CE, the demon lords do show a degree of forbearance and planning.


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Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Sounds like "Why the hell is this a feat? Does that mean I can't get a circumstance bonus to an Intimidate check by breaking the wall with my fist? WTF?"
The feat doesn't say you can't. And it adds a decent bonus. I'd say the bonus is on top of the circumstance bonus.

I agree with Anarchy_Kanya. You can break stuff normally to get a circumstance bonus - but typically those are in the order of +2. With this feat you can not only get bigger bonuses, you can also potentially stack it with circumstance bonuses.


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I think they (being the developers) realized that the feat needed some hands-on attention to specify/clarify the interaction with various feats and effects. Currently it is probably in discussion with the developers, but the extent may be so far as to require re-wording the (Pummeling) feat. If the feat wording changes, then the feat will only resurface in its new form when the ACG goes into its second printing; and will possibly become PFS legal again then.

So (by my guess) the feat is currently in review with the Paizo team to be either FAQ'd into balance or reworded into balance. If it will be FAQ'd then we can expect to hear about it in the next 2 to 12 weeks; otherwise the next edition of the ACG may be 1 or 2 years off.

In the interim it is just prudent to remove it from PFS play.

For my money: Pummeling Style should get addressed, specifically special riders should only apply on the first attack roll/damage roll. But it is more important to also fix the master of many styles. The style follow-up feats should only be prerequisite-free from level 6 onwards (though basic style feats would be available without prerequisites from the start). To compensate for this grant an additional style feat at levels 4 and 8 (only basic style feat, not follow-ups). This also ensures a master of *many* styles, not a master of *one-style-completed-by-level-3*.


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No. Only the first attack is at 1.5

@Tom Sampson: just because it is treated as a single attack does not mean that all the attacks that are accumulated into it are treated as the first attack.

Similar reasoning as with combining sneak attack with scorching ray. Only the first get's the special rider.


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The investigator class has a "sneak attack" in the form of "studied strike", which is clearly linked to a cerebral effort. I'd definitely rule against using rage and studied strike together.

However, "sneak attack" is not specifically linked with patience or concentration. Rogue's expend no special effort - they simply choose to attack specific body parts rather than trying to just plain hit an enemy. Such a skill can be understood to be second nature, ingrained in the training (and the reason why the class is at 3/4 BAB; in essence the reduced BAB is the payment for sneak attack).

You could take your friend's argument, and argue that favored enemy doesn't apply while raging. On the grounds that a blind fury in battle simply doesn't allow for acting on the special skills required to attack undead (or whatever) more effectively. But of course you could also argue that seeing your favored enemy just makes the rage stronger.

Both you and your friend are correct in your interpretations of rage. That is to say, "rage" is not a specific state of rage but can be different for different characters. In the same way that a fighter is not just a fighter, but maybe a bodyguard, a bounty hunter, etc - however different interpretations of the flavor of rage should not be used as guideline for what does-or-does-not apply when raging.

The bottom line:

Rage: cannot use patience or concentration.
Sneak attack: must be able to see and reach.

Those two are not mutually exclusive statements.


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Kudaku wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

I think Pummeling Style is "the new hotness", but if you don't build for crit-fishing and DR isn't the biggest problem, then I think Tiger Style is better. At level 12, getting +8 to damage is pretty massive. Tiger Pounce is situationally better/worse than Pummeling Charge - specifically it is not limited to charging, meaning there are plenty situations where you can still get off your flurry where Pummeling Style cannot.

As a side note: Tiger Claw is even a form of "mini" Pummeling Style in that it lets you use 2 attacks (essentially your two best attacks), add the results together (and even add extra damage with Power Attack), crit collectively (as Pummeling Style).

I'm generally not a fan of bleed damage since I want targets dead ASAP - not two rounds from now.

The main reason I like Pummeling Style is that it makes unarmed crits a viable option (if you make 7 attacks, odds are pretty good you'll roll a 19 or 20), it works as clustered shots vs DR (often a problem with the "many small hits" tactic) and the mini-pounce. The (amazing) synergy with Criososphinx is really just a cherry on a delicious sundae. Assuming a str of 26 and 7 attacks at level 12, Horn alone adds up to 28 damage.

Oh, yea, there's bleed damage too. I don't think that is the reason I like Tiger Style; it's all about the 3rd feat in the chain. No attack penalty on Power Attack and the ability to move half-speed as a swift action. That is a big deal.

The Criosphinx interaction is indeed very neat (though down-the-line I'd be worried about a clarification of it only applying to your first attack in the case of a pounce-based charge). But the problem with charges is that they are... well... charges. There are plenty of times where charging isn't an option, and even when it does apply, it applies in the first round, subsequent rounds are "normal" full-attacks.


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chbgraphicarts wrote:
You can definitely make the argument for RAI, but I would also point you to the Brawler class. The Brawler actually DOES count as having levels in Monk in order to determine the effects of Magic Items - it says as much right in its Martial Training description. There is no such clarification for the Sacred Fist, so you can go on the assumption that it doesn't actually count as a Monk (and, again, RAW it doesn't).

The different classes (and archetypes) had different developers working on them - even though we like to think that all rules are presented on a level playing field, that is not actually the case. When one class explicitly points out something, it cannot be taken as a given that for a class that doesn't point out the same thing, that it doesn't apply.

Kudaku wrote:
I'd probably skip Tiger Style for Pummeling Style

I think Pummeling Style is "the new hotness", but if you don't build for crit-fishing and DR isn't the biggest problem, then I think Tiger Style is better. At level 12, getting +8 to damage is pretty massive. Tiger Pounce is situationally better/worse than Pummeling Charge - specifically it is not limited to charging, meaning there are plenty situations where you can still get off your flurry where Pummeling Style cannot.

As a side note: Tiger Claw is even a form of "mini" Pummeling Style in that it lets you use 2 attacks (essentially your two best attacks), add the results together (and even add extra damage with Power Attack), crit collectively (as Pummeling Style).


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chbgraphicarts wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

...

However, it does look like the SF deals marginally more damage than the Warpriest, though not nearly as much as people are making it out to be. It seems to be that the Warpriest may trade that small amount of damage for a more-versatile build.

Keep in mind that the Sacred Weapon ability of the Warpriest to add an enhancement bonus to his weapons only is available for 12 rounds. That really isn't that much. It is generally present in clutch situations (assuming frugal use of the ability), but you cannot consider it the "standard" damage output for the warpriest.

Going from +12 (2d6+7) to +9 (2d6+4) is a fairly huge drop; it represents roughly a 35% drop in average damage.

...

There is another subtlety that is no accounted for: the warpriest build given is shown using his Sacred Weapon ability, meaning a +3 enhancement bonus to attack and damage is already included. The sacred fist on the other hand does not have an enhancement bonus to strikes yet, meaning there is more growth potential for damage on the sacred fist than on the warpriest.


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@chbgraphicarts:

Sacred Fist

Race human - ?
SF1 - ?, improved unarmed strike
SF2 -
SF3 - weapon focus (unarmed)
SF4 -
SF5 - tiger style
SF6 - weapon specialization (unarmed), tiger claws
SF7 - power attack
SF8 -
SF9 - ?
SF10 -
SF11 - ?
SF12 - tiger pounce

+11/+11/+6/+6/+1 (2d8+10) +8 from Power Attack, +2 from Weapon Specialization

Sacred fist assumes a monk's robe (your warpriest apparently assumes two +1 keen agile kukris). The warpriest can deal his stated damage for 12 rounds a day. The sacred fist does more damage all the time and has a pounce-like ability.

The sacred fist can adept the above build for Dex-based damage to supplement his AC (which takes the Power Attack penalty due to Tiger Pounce). Also the sacred fist can spend ki to increase either his AC (to counteract Power Attack penalty) or add another attack.

Both the warpriest and the sacred fist can take Slashing Grace to avoid the need for the agile enchantment (Tiger Style grants slashing damage to unarmed strikes).

Edit: even accounting for crits, the sacred fist build deals about 20% more damage on average all the time than the warpriest does when peaking with sacred fist.


Don't worry. Keep the chin up and keep trucking. We'll be keeping an eye out. :)


Remember: it's always darkest before the glorious dawn! ;)

The wise man would wager his lunch box that we'll be waiting.


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Other than having a +3 weapon, there are also oils and the like to temporarily apply to a weapon to allow it to bypass specific DRs; so a cold-iron weapon with silver-oil would bypass both.


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I don't like the changes to prone and disarm; the two conditions are some of the few meaningful conditions that a martial can impose on another character - nerfing that is nerfing martials in my opinion.

Provoking an AOO on maneuvers is a tool for me (to force out AOOs to enable other actions and making things safer for the other PCs).

I do like less damage and more dancing bit.


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thejeff wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

Somebody mentioned "poisoner". Now given OP's example of a psion, there is no reason why a player cannot play a sorcerer, call it a poisoner, focus on appropriate spells (sleep, daze monster, etc), only applies spells via touch, and calls the spells appropriate poison names. "Narcotic poison" (sleep), "muscle relaxing toxin" (daze monster).

In other words, any "cannot be done" is really saying "cannot be done this way", or "cannot be done and still be as good as the minmaxed synthesist", or even "cannot be done in PFS".

Except for the part where he's actually casting spells and has to follow all those rules. Uses per day. Can be dispelled. Doesn't work in anti-magic. Anyone with a spellcraft roll knows they're really spells. Has to chant & wave his arms.

So?

You can make poison via magic, why shouldn't the poisoner follow the normal spell-based rules?

If the request is to make a mundane poison user, then sure, it doesn't work so well. But really the call was for a "poisoner". If you're willing to suspend disbelief a bit then you realize that the "chanting" is recalling the poison recipe and the waving of arms is mixing the ingredients (and of course the spell component pouch is the poison reagents pouch). AND what's more, when an enemy caster uses dispel to stop a poison, he really is just disrupting the delicate balance of ingredients. Anti-magic field? Obviously a zone in which ordinary laws of physics don't apply - your reagents don't react properly anymore.

Really, the more you think about it and get into it, the more reasonable the idea is.


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Solidchaos085 wrote:

Someone already said knight riding a dragon, but I'll add to that.

Assuming no 3pp, you cannot get a proper dragon as an animal companion, and I mean the full deal (breath weapon that scales to character level, flight WITH the character riding (stupid monstrous mount), and a reasonable growth for said dragon that DOESNT render it useless in endgame dungeons)

Whoa slow down here. The request was for a knight riding a dragon. Not for a dragon animal companion. Provided the GM exposes the party to NPC dragons and a knight(fighter, cavalier, whatever) befriends said dragon and the dragon let's him ride on top. No issue.

...

Somebody mentioned "poisoner". Now given OP's example of a psion, there is no reason why a player cannot play a sorcerer, call it a poisoner, focus on appropriate spells (sleep, daze monster, etc), only applies spells via touch, and calls the spells appropriate poison names. "Narcotic poison" (sleep), "muscle relaxing toxin" (daze monster).

In other words, any "cannot be done" is really saying "cannot be done this way", or "cannot be done and still be as good as the minmaxed synthesist", or even "cannot be done in PFS".


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I think the best addition is the ki-for-attack in all situations. The way I read it it allows the monk to not spend a round attacking, but still spend ki to get an attack. So he could take out a potion, drink it, and still trip somebody, all in the same turn.

The problem of course comes in conjunction with multi-classing; this could allow combat-orientated casters to cast and attack for example.


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A pleasant read. It's good to see the monk perform on expectations.


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Serisan wrote:
Fearspect wrote:


Novack: I don't see why an Exploiter Wizard couldn't get the Extra Arcanist Exploit feat. Could you explain that?

I can jump on that one. Extra Arcanist's Exploit requires the Arcanist's Exploit class feature as a prerequisite. Exploiters get Exploiter's Exploit instead.

Quite honestly, that's about the only thing that keeps the Exploiter from being flat-out perfect.

Paizo has stated previously that "duck typing" generally applies to their published material (if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it is a duck). For example the sensei (monk archetype) "advice" ability and evangelist (cleric archetype) "sermonic performance" both allow you to qualify for Extra Performance and Lingering Performance feats even though only "sermonic performance" spells out that it interacts with feats.

I see no reason why this wouldn't apply to Exploiter's Exploit too.


Felos impromptu gains the Undersized Mount feat.


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I suspect you are using a very non-standard way of point-buy. It sounds like you pretty much pay 1 point for +1 to 1 stat. Normal point-buy in Pathfinder limits the stats that cannot be increased beyond 18, and that costs 17 points.


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Somebody that believes they are (a) god would probably behave in a manner appropriate to their alignment and ideals. Look to actual ascended humans for example: Irori, Iomedae, Norgorber, Cayden Cailean.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

I'd like to point out that full-BAB on the monk unleashed is nice and all, but *I* don't feel particularly strongly for it. Instead I'd like to see a big (big, BIG) list of monk talents to take every even level, akin to rogue talents and rage powers.

Who said you can't have both full BAB and customized talents?

Oh certainly, why not? What I'm trying to say is that I think that monk talents are more important than full BAB. Full BAB is just something relevant to martials in general, but monk talents could be something that define the monk class in general (and characters in specific).

Pretty much every Player Companion that gets published now has a smattering of new rogue talents, special bardic masterpieces, alchemical insights, and so forth. But only once in a long while something for monks crops up (off-hand I can only think of meditation feats; and those are really for everybody - the monk merely has a slightly easier time accessing them). As a monk player I'm pretty much always jealous of (most) other classes when I read through a Player Companion.

Monk talents, are essentially what the qinggong archetype tries to retro-fit onto the existing monk chassis. Given the constraints it manages quite well - but written into the class from the ground up it would be far more relevant.


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I'd like to point out that full-BAB on the monk unleashed is nice and all, but *I* don't feel particularly strongly for it. Instead I'd like to see a big (big, BIG) list of monk talents to take every even level, akin to rogue talents and rage powers.


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christos gurd wrote:
Pummling lets you flurry as a single attack.

Yes and no. You still have to roll all attacks and damages independently; only the first attack and damage roll would benefit from the wraps (assuming you allocate the bonus to the first attack).

Likewise you cannot use Furious Focus to "ignore" all Power Attack penalties while doing a Pummeling Strike.


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No, the Paizo team (by the last ruling that I know of) have declared that using a two-handed weapon makes all off-hand attacks nonviable; even if you have a third arm or are using a non-off-hand attack like a knee to the groin.

There *is* at least one item that allows you to TWF a two-hander with an off-hand attack though. The Cheliax Player Companion (I think) added a helmet with a chin spike (a devil beard or some such) that can be used for TWF along with a two-handed weapon.


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Conversely, if you *do* follow the monk's flurry rules (as opposed to actual two-weapon fighting), you have no problem. As long as you can flurry your two-handed weapon (i.e. it is a monk weapon) then you can mix it with attacks with other monk weapons and unarmed strikes in any way you want.

If you can flurry a two-handed weapon via other means (such as archetypes or special magic items that say you can) then it works too. (I recall there is some katana that can be flurried - it's just very expensive.)


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@Globetrotter:

I think what you really need is to introduce your players to the concepts of disarm, sunder and steal. Very easy to do counters to an everburning torch.


Just as an errant thought: if (most of) the party dies, we can also consider one of the recent APs: mummy's mask, iron gods, or if we look at the "older new" APs also wrath of the righteous. I don't know how others feel about it, but the fantasy steampunk vibe of Iron Gods has me curious.


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Depending on how the Pummeling Style works out (can it be used with (all) weapons?) here's something neat:

The inspired strike deed of the Swashbuckler (inspired blade archetype), in conjunction with Pummeling Style. Upgrade one of your hits to a crit - then have Pummeling Style count all your hits as a crit.


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Has anybody pointed out the interaction between inspired strike Swashbuckler (inspired blade archetype) and Pummeling Style? Spend panache to force a hit into a crit; apply it to all successful attacks via Pummeling Style.


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Counterpunch is a pretty cool new high-level feat in the Advanced Class Guide. What I find bothersome is that monks are excluded from qualifying for it. The prerequisites are: Dex 18, Combat Ref lexes, Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike); base attack bonus +16 or brawler level 12th.

Since a monk caps at +15 base attack bonus, and isn't a brawler, the feat is simply not available for a monk. I find that a bit odd and assume it is not intended. Any thoughts?

(The ACG has loads of great options for monks and other classes, I just find it odd that this particular one is not included.)


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Honestly this "sexist" thing is nonsense in this case (in my opinion). Except to imply that it is sexist that guys don't also have the opportunity to enter the contest.

What I believe is the problem here, is that the author of the article thinks this is all about having the most attractive girls have a shot at buying the new phone. (Which would be sexy-ist thing, not a sexist thing.) But it isn't really about the sexy-girl-gets-the-phone: yes an attractive girl has better odds all other things being equal - but really, this is an opportunity to skew odds in your favor in a myriad of ways. The photo can be clever, funny, the location can be exotic, or weird, or dangerous, the logo design can be creative, original, artistic, or done with plants, there's any number of ways in which a positive and healthy representation can be made.

Instead of seeing opportunity there are complaints.

Anybody that thinks they will develop self-esteem issues because they didn't get votes on a contest to be eligible to get a phone... well... perhaps re-evaluating their priorities in life may be a step forward. But it's all part of the system! The patriarchy! It's all just one more example! Well, rubbish. The patriarchy is defeated in all ways that matter; mopping up the extras is just a matter of time as the old guard dies out. What is left, what is the root of problems for everybody, is an egotistical kleingeist. A self-centered, self-serving me-me-me society. Everything should be easy. Everything should be free.

Guys. Girls. Get over yourselves. We should serve to make the world a better place. Not to make the world a better place for us.


Gooo Untari! :D


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Veldrin Shadowbane wrote:
Nothing wrote:
Sure, with quickdraw you can draw your katana as a free action, then attack with it as a standard action, and finally sheath it again as a move action. Repeat every round to look as badass as desired.
Can I full attack while sheathing/unsheathing if I don't take a 5 foot step?

The sheathing is a move action; Quickdraw won't let you put it back fast again (though in theory you could have 5 swords and drop a sword (as a free action) at the end of every round.

If you skip the sheating, then yes, you can full attack. You can even take a 5-foot step at any point during the full round attack (if memory serves me right).


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There's also a samurai archetype that helps a little with this, the sword saint, here's a link

Possibly consider the feat Wave Strike


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I'd not so much remove a class, but I would make the master of many styles (MoMS) archetype unavailable for multi-class characters. Seriously, that level dip really riles me up the wrong way.

Alternatively, I'd fix the archetype to not be such an attractive dipping class.


I think the trick is to play non-casters. Whew! Problem pushed away to the GM ;)


What? The initiative order is forever long; Mahjik only got another action just now. He'll be able to focus on the deeper darkness ahead of him soon.


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See Lefty X, martials don't really have a problem dealing damage. That isn't where they take second place to casters.


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heh. hehehe. bahahahahahaa!


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Just a moment's food for thought: all and any re-imagining of the rogue class (and classes in general) should try to not solve all the problems of the class. Building a level of weakness into the class (and perhaps compensating for it elsewhere in the class) helps to diversify the class.


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+1 to Haladir

There are plenty of classes, even PFS-legal ones, that fit the bill of sacred warrior for any given faith or philosophy. If your true gripe is that those classes don't get to bypass DR and add Cha to saves, well that is a silly reason.


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Orthos wrote:
Yes, nerfing martial characters, just what the game needs. [/sarc]

I only play martial characters (and only melee ones at that, no sucky ranged ones). I just don't like Power Attack.

I'm all for buffing martials, but Power Attack is not what I want. It's boring, it's powerful in wrong ways, it makes encounters less interesting.


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christos gurd wrote:
There going to be any feat rewrites?

This is a biggie, I think. Some feats really shouldn't do what they do. Power Attack is a good example. It is statistically sound with respect to how much damage scaling happens - but it isn't balanced that well in practice. PCs are hitting for 1d8+42. "Tough" monsters evaporate in one round.

The thing is, although it should balance out: the party has too many ways to buff to-hit to the point where a miss (even with Power Attack penalty) is very unlikely - but the damage output is exceedingly high. Not to mention incidentally side-effects, such as significantly reducing the value of DR on many creatures that rely on it as their primary means for defense. CR 8 fighting-type monsters can have attacks that deal 1d6+3 damage; and the PCs that encounter them do 1d6+15.

Increase the penalty, reduce the damage, limit the scaling, add additional negative riders (AC penalty, limited use, limited per-round-use, Standard Action use, 1 round fatigue, not-multiplied-on-crits, etc).

The bottom-line is that the feat is too good; I'm willing to say "fun-diminishing", particularly for something that PCs pick up at level 1.

What I would suggest:

Power Attack
Benefit: You can choose to take a –2 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a bonus on all melee damage rolls equal to your Constitution modifier. This bonus damage is halved if the attack is made with a weapon wielded in one hand.


  • benefits traditional martial "tough guys", especially barbarians(!)
  • significant but not over-powering bonus
  • scales benignly


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A suggestion: instead of having 40 point buy, start with 20 point buy - but at levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20 do not give a static +1 to a stat. Instead give +3, +4, +5, +6, +7 additional point buy. (Players can save points if they want, even from level 1 onwards.)

The +3 at level 4 is not enough for a SAD player to push his primary stat to 19 or 20, but it is enough for a MAD player to push a 13 to 14 as well as an 11 to 12. (Since it is additional point buy, you do not have to apply the extra points to the same stat.)

Note that the point buy still applies on the values without racials, so a 18 (16 + 2 racial) can be pushed to 19 (17 + 2) at 4th level with +3 point buy.


Happy birthday!

Don't for a minute believe that thing those Blink182 people say ;)


We fiiiine :D

Goblin Squad Member

Monk.

That said, I feel GW need to prioritize the class diversification and implementation above other content. I think everybody deserves to be able to play the game with the character they have in their head. Rather than choosing 1 of the 3 initial classes and fight against an ever expanding list of different enemies.

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