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Except that the "weapon" for a Trip is the Athletics skill. Unless you mean to say that to perform a Trip is: Str + Weapon Prof + Athletics ProfFurthermore the rules text suggests that a Trip is performed against AC (instead of Reflex). Naturally the text from Athletics overrides, but likewise, the proficiency from Athletics overrides (as I doubt the intention is for multiple proficiencies to stack).
I can see an official ruling on weapon proficiency and traits going either way. From a realistic point of view I'd argue that it doesn't matter that I don't know how to wield a staff in real life: it's easy to hold a staff in the way of an assailant. I think that is reflected in the bonus the parry gives: it's a +1 circumstance bonus. I would welcome a ruling otherwise: if proficiency did matter, then likewise it should mean that a legendary staff user should get more out of a parry than an untrained or merely trained user. Personally I'd welcome that, as that may actually make disarm attempts somewhat realistic by getting an expert/master/legend bonus on top of the check. But currently the design intention seems to stay away from anything that can escalate the bonuses.
Those are some great suggestions. I'd probably lean toward the Str/Dex build if I am to forego the cleric dedication. Regarding mage armor and TAC: Anything that gives you a bonus or penalty to Armor Class also gives you an equal bonus or penalty to Touch Armor Class unless stated otherwise. Regarding bo staff proficiency: the character doesn't need to be proficient to wield the staff, and the weapon's proficiency is not a factor in the parry trait. (Nor the trip trait.) The opportunity cost is that the character's hands are occupied and (s)he must spend an action.
Ah, you're right about Bracers of Armor. I was looking at the Level 2 next to Type 1st, and mistook the item level for spell level. I understand where you're coming from. I think those kinds of entries would benefit from a small table listing details as Item Level / Spell Level / Cost
Your AC should be 20, as a +1 Bracers of Armor gives you +2 Item bonus to AC, and +1 Item bonus to saves. That's not very clear in the item description, but the +1 bracers of armor are a level 2 item that use "type 1" (meaning the spell level of mage armor is level 1). The basic mage armor bonus is just +1 to AC; it needs to be heightened to spell level 2 before it grants +2/+1 to AC/saves. .. I prefer Tiger Stance over Dragon, partially because I think the level 6 feats will be better. And being able to take a 10ft Step is pretty nice. Tiger Slash (level 6 feat) also has greater effect with higher Strength, so it works well with a Strength based monk.
This may have been already brought up. Or it may be the result of misunderstanding how Resonance and invested magic items work. In any case, is it me or does the Monk almost "require" a minimum Charisma score of 12 in order to have a total of 2 Resonance Points and be able to use both the bracers of armor and the handwraps of mighty fists at the same time, items that are almost necessary or at least important in regards to his combat effectiveness? You also add your level - so by the time you can afford bracers and handwraps you typically have enough Resonance.
hmmmm, okay switch out the shield use with parry from bo staff. Though... perhaps this line overrides the armor-vs-shield proficiency:
If you’re not wearing armor, substitute your proficiency in unarmored defense. You could argue that it means it takes precedence over the armor-vs-shield proficiency. (Except for monk, nobody progresses their unarmored proficiency, so it essentially means everybody except monk use "0" for proficiency when not armored; irrespective of how good they are with a shield.) All that said, I don't think the shield spell interacts with shield proficiency: the spell creates a force effect that protects you. It's not even in your hand, it just is. You will it with your mind; it just happens to enable similar actions as the shield item.
Excellent catch. I didn't even question whether inspire courage was actually in the occult spell list. I still think cleric dedication is a good idea. But it'll have to wait for level 5 (for the boost). Thank you!
I'm preparing a level 4 monk for the playtest. I figured that it would be good to get some input from the forum. It's easy to make mistakes or overlook something, since it's a new rule system. Haku of the Rock Palm
Str 18 = 10 + 2 free + 2 human + 2 acrobat + 2 monk
HP 52
unarmed +10 (1d6+4) B
Level 1 - alertness [ancestry]; steady balance [background]; tiger stance [monk]
Cantrips
Skills:
Acrobatics 7 (T*) Athletics 9 (E*) Lore (circus) 5 (T*) Performance 4 (T) Items:
Wealth (10sp) backpack 1
+1 bracers of armor (level 2)
Haku spends one class level taking cleric dedication to qualify as spellcaster; then has Ancestral Paragon to get access to inspire courage (the better "ki strike") through Adapted Spell racial feat. As a bonus Haku picks up shield ("ki dodge") and stabilize ("ki peace") which give additional tactical options for spare actions. Maximizing athletics and strength should let Haku have reasonable control threat with trip and Stunning Fist.
The potion's effect lasts for 1 day. The number of encounters that encompasses isn't clear. The group that I GM'd Doomsday Dawn part 1 for did the entire part in 1 day in-game time. The monk, at level 1, has essentially no reason to spend money on anything other than some essentials (lantern, bed roll, rations, etc). Buying 3 potions to tide him over to level 2 should be fine. Edit: though note that whether potions of mage armor are allowed at your table depends on your playgroup. Your mileage will vary.
Just a for fun design distraction: here's my take on how weapons (including bow) could work for the monk Iron Tempest Stance (Feat 1)
Iron Strikes (Feat 6)
I'd like to add that a level 1 monk can wield the bo staff without taking Monastic Weaponry. Provided he keeps on fighting unarmed (but wields the bo staff), he can always spend an action for +1 circumstance bonus to AC. Proficiency in the bo staff is not required for this (and having legendary proficiency in the bo staff also doesn't raise the benefits).
To me this is super simple: you want the class to not feel like a trap and for everyone who plays it to have options. Well; as pointed out, the bo staff is a simple, realistic way to consistently have +1 AC (at the cost of an action). It's cheap. It doesn't cost a character feat. And seems perfectly consistent with your desire to have a reaction based defense - it works for the same reasons. I don't think you can reasonable demand that the solution has to be a reaction, when an action is the solution provided. This doesn't work. No skill feats at level 1 It works for humans, since you can take a general feat as a racial feat - and general feats include all skill feats. That said, it is very specialized if you only use if for scrolls of mage armor. But you could certainly play certain monks through that (casting spells from ancient parchments that distill the wisdom of the masters).
Where can I find the rules for potion pricing? I've found pricing for very specific potions. But I can't find potions of healing (and am not sure what each potion would cost depending on heal level).Potions are unique items rather than being spells with a price by level. You’ll find the healing potions starting on page 394! Thank you. Google search wasn't nearly as forth coming about that. That said, my assumption still is that portions of mage armor will exist; and will be comparable to potions of healing in cost. It's an obvious gap in the treasure list to have a consumable to grant AC and/or saves. I'm okay with that not being run that way by all tables. Boots of haste are likely to exist sooner or later - but I cannot make a reliable guess on what item level and cost these will have. Vests of resistance are also a weird case, with resistances being rolled into potency runes. So I'd not feel safe presupposing what they'd be.
I'll take that into consideration once I can review the relevant post. For the time being I believe that there'll be a way to get potions of mage armor at some point. The way spell scaling works now there is certainly no balance issue with it. (As opposed to the 1e potion of mage armor, which would be broken in 2e.)
If you're still using unarmed attacks, then you can wield the bo staff without Monastic Weapons. As far as I read you do not need to be proficient with a weapon to benefit from its traits.It feels like "carry a weapon you have no intention of ever using" is the sort of inelegant solution to a problem where fixing the identified issue is a better priority during a playtest than "put up with the inelegance." I may not have the intention to use it for hitting people - but certainly have the intention of using it to be in the way of other people. I don't know how to use a staff in real life like a shaolin monk - but you bet I can hold it in the way of you trying to hit me. It is, quite literally (according to the rules as well), a circumstance bonus. Well, I couldn't see a potion. what page is it on? but yes, that would work better (except maybe for cost) Not explicitly listed in the playtest. But then again there are almost no potions listed, and no rules for how to make potions. The playtest rules are incomplete in that sense. I believe you can extrapolate, though, using the potion of healing as an example. Potions and scrolls now appear to have the same cost (as opposed to 1e) - probably due to potions having a higher opportunity cost than before (by consuming resonance). I know people can argue for-and-against whether a potion of mage armor should be allowed in the playtest. So probably different playgroups will differ on it. I know my players can use it (being GM). Some might argue that the playtest should test what is explicitly in the text. I rather think that it is important to test the concepts in the playtest - for example the use of Resonance. At low levels there is almost no point to Resonance, other than swallowing a potion of healing. By making other level 1 (or 2) potions available, there is actual consideration and testing of Resonance happening.
If you're still using unarmed attacks, then you can wield the bo staff without Monastic Weapons. As far as I read you do not need to be proficient with a weapon to benefit from its traits. (Likewise you can pick up and wield an expert sai to get a +1 bonus to your disarm attempts; while still doing normal attacks with unarmed strikes. The sai adds its item bonus to athletics checks to disarm; your sai proficiency does not factor in, it's just a tool. Whether you are untrained or legendary in sai use does not change its bonus to athletics checks).
I find it easier to just get a potion of mage armor (of whichever level). No failure chance - though you do need resonance.
master of many styles at 16th level is ridiculous. it should be at 6th level. I agree it seems a bit late; especially since it has a feat tax to reach. And you'd need to spend more feats to make it worthwhile (at least two styles, typically with follow-up feats as well). Even then the Master of Many Styles only lets you change styles for free once a turn. I think levels 8 or 10 would be adequate.
I've been doing some experimenting: Str 18
This seems okay. Fort/Will takes a bit of a knock - but they'll recover with level 5/10/15 boosts and you start with expert saves anyway. You can still stack Crane and potions of mage armor over that.
Ah, thanks for clarification on "clumsy", I had that wrong. I realized something earlier: the reason why I don't have problems with 1e monks at level 1 is because there was easy access to a potent solution, namely potions of mage armor. The playtest currently is very limited in what items are listed explicitly - but using potions of healing as example, it would cost 3gp to buy a potion of mage armor (item level 1, spell level 1). Or 8gp to buy an item level 3, spell level 2 potion of mage armor. I think this could be enough to help the monk at level 1. I don't think the monk is supposed to have great AC. That is where you are mistaken. The monk has not-so-great AC at level 1, but by level 20 a Dex monk has the highest AC of everybody, including paladins (and TAC equal to his AC). The late game power of the monk is unquestionable.
Why reactive defense? You think that having +1 or +2 vs one attack a round is what the monk needs? If you believe the monk has an AC problem, then the solution should be to give him AC. ... The Figher's AC is 17 with Dex 14. At level 1. That means he's wearing breast plate. Which is armor check penalty of -4 and is "clumsy". Meaning that the penalty applies to Reflex too. Fighter reflex
Monk reflex
Your Fighter also has a TAC of 14 (my monk 15). Reflex of 1 (monk 4). Reflex is more important in 2e compared to 1e (and also is your trip/disarm/tumble defense). Speed 10 slower than the monk. For humans that is 15 vs 25. All Fighter Dex skills at -3 compared to the monk. Figher has basically no money left for anything else. ... The monk is fine with having a couple of levels of slightly low AC when focusing on Strength. The option to go either Str or Dex is there. Naturally an offense-focused monk will suffer a bit in defense; and naturally a defense-focused monk will suffer a bit in offence. Both are valid and viable.
Of course I've played. Think about it this way: a minimum Dex of 16 is required for the monk in terms of AC. Or Dex 18 if you want to maximize AC. If you can agree with that premise, then Dex 14 and Crane Stance gives the same AC as just Dex 16. So you've achieved parity. Naturally Dex 14 means that you can have Str 18; so you do 1d6+4 damage with Crane Stance. Expected damage 7.5 per hit. Dex 18 and Str 14 and Tiger Stance is 1d8+2 (expected 6.5 damage per hit). Or Dragon Stance 1d10+2 (expected 7.5, but not agile). Turns out at level 1 the bonus damage from Strength compensates for Crane Stance poor damage dice. Then once you've leveled a bit and feel comfortable with your AC you can retrain into a stance that provides better offense.
I'm okay with the relatively poor starting AC. Level 1 has more HP now thanks to racial HP, and it's not thaaaat bad to have to invest into Dex. A 18Str 10Dex 16Con monk would be weird after all. If you feel vulnerable with 14Dex (and level 1 AC of 14) then you can take Crane Stance for another +1 to AC. Then retrain it later.
Has anybody found out if Flurry of Blows takes the -5 multiattack penalty? Flurry of Blows does take the -5 multiple attack penalty - but the majority of monk unarmed strikes are also agile; so it is only a -4 penalty.
I think you're wrong on Tongue of the Sun and Moon. I certainly pick it for my character. If you played the playtest a bit you may have realized that speaking different languages is a scarce skill. The typical character will have 2 languages at the start - and then you can learn more languages by getting trained in Society and picking the skill feat Multilingual for 2 more languages. You could take the feat multiple times.
I think it would be enough if monks get trained proficiency in simple monk weapons. Then add dagger and staff to the list of monk weapons.
I guess that is true for OP. In my case, I don't really care for ranged attack options. I got a party of allies that I hold responsible to sort out that trouble for me ^_^
But without the Monastic Weaponry feat the monk treats those as untrained; so takes a -2 penalty. Honestly I don't think throwing a shuriken with a -2 penalty is the end of the world, but its not as efficient as it could be.
I've quickly reviewed the ki powers. None of them have a ki cost specified at the power; except if the power gives additional ways to spend ki (e.g. Abundant Step (dimensional steps) can increase distance with more ki spent). ... If what you said is true, then there is nothing preventing the monk from using the ki strike on every attack (it is a free action after all). At the feat they could've just said "The monk gets a pool of spell points [bla..]; and a +1 conditional bonus to all attacks".
And since a monk has a free +1 conditional to every attack, this -4 can be considered just -3 in most situations. I believe that is still up for debate. I think the default behavior is everything costs 1 point unless otherwise stated. A 0-point cost would have to be explicitly stated. A 1-point cost not. Similar to how every action is a standard action in 1e unless otherwise stated. This is particularly true since the text implies that there is a cost.
@Cellion: Can you share your calcs? (In a spoiler perhaps?) How do you get to be master in all saves by 15th level?
4d10 each of the two unarmed strikes, for a total of 8d10 if both hit? How is this achieved? No, he meant 4d10 after combining two 2d10 flurry attacks.
@RafaelBraga If I read you correctly, you seem to suggest that the two strikes from flurry do not consider MAP. I did not read that in the rules text. Has that been explained elsewhere? My understanding is that the two strikes from flurry are at, for example, +10/+6 (the second flurry strike takes a higher MAP penalty than the prior one, unless the MAP penalty is already max). The only benefit is that their damage is summated before being applied; they do not otherwise count as just one attack. Edit: Just reviewed the monk preview on the Paizo blog: Both these attacks take the multiple attack penalty normally, so usually the monk will be making the second attack at a -4
Considering that ki strike costs a spell point, it is tremendously underwhelming. My suggestion to make it more relevant: "The triggering attack does not suffer a multiple attack penalty; though it still progresses your multiple attack penalty." This approximates what it did for the 1e monk.
Ah. Thanks a lot, that goes some way of explaining. But not entirely: the trap is not a true mind quake; but a facsimile created by Ramlock.
I've started preparations to GM Doomsday Dawn; and in When the Stars Go Dark, page 91, is a Mind Quake hazard that has a Stealth DC 45. According to the Game Mastering guide in the rulebook for level 17 characters the highest DC (Extreme) is 43 (for something that should still plausibly be reachable). DC 45 is really high, especially on a check like Perception. There is relatively little chance opportunity to improve Perception on a character (almost all are stuck on Expert or less) and even a character that focuses on Wisdom won't make that check on a natural 20 unless she also has an item equipped that grants an item bonus to Perception. Even the end boss fight Ramlock has lower DCs the highest being AC at 43 (and attacks have a bigger list of ways to increase the odds). And the best offensive DCs (spells) that he throws are at DC 41. How did he create a DC 45 hazard? It seems a really unreasonable and out-of-depth.
You guys are doing great work!
I don't take issue with a +1 bonus. What irks me to no end is that the World's Best Thief(tm), and Joe who reads dictionaries for a living, are separated by around +2 to +3 when it comes to Thievery.
The important thing here is that stealth by itself does not let you do a take-down on a guard. You need to wait until the guard is distracted. Conveniently Deception (Create a Diversion) does exactly that. You can even flavor the action (from a roleplaying point of view) as waiting for an opportune moment. Basically the game wants you to utilize multiple aspects of the character to accomplish what you want. And handily, from the design point of view, this eats up a player action so an assassin doesn't get two or three actions to attack and kill a guard before they get to act.
Daaahaha, I clicked through hoping for a character generator - as in getting stats and numbers to compile automatically ^_^
A Master Rogue gets to take 20 (no penalties or bonuses) at all times now. A Legendary Rogue will take 30. It is the best feat for skills. Not quite true. You don't "take 20" or "take 30" at master and legend levels. You "get 20" or "get 30" at master and legend levels. "20" isn't your die roll. It is your result. Depending on how much you push a skill, that is like taking 3 or taking 8. The most efficient use of Assurance is in a skill that you only put the minimum of effort. For example, a gnome rogue (on 8 Strength) that increases Athletics to master by level 7 so that she doesn't have to worry about swim/climb checks. Just "get 20" all the time. At level 7 her bonus to the skill would be +8, so it would be like taking 12. But by level 12 her bonus would be +13 so then it would only be like taking 7.
1. Deadly Simplicity only increases your damage dice for unarmed attacks up to d6, not by 1 step. So it doesn't interact with Tiger Stance at all. I disagree, it increases unarmed attacks to d6 if lower than d6. Otherwise the rest of the text applies. But granted, it isn't clear if special unarmed attacks (crane wing, tiger claw) qualify. I don't see why everybody else would get their damage increased and the monk doesn't. The cost (2 class feats) is certainly big enough to warrant the reward. If what you said is true, then a more concise and clear rule would be: "Unarmed attacks can only be raised to d6." .. I missed that Monk's Evasion requires master proficiency. That makes it a bit redundant given that the monk gets Second Path to Perfection. Only the rider really matters from level 11.
Or another way to make the proficiency level more meaningful is by having:
You can't even sneak across a hallway as legendary stealth, so I'd say a lot of the stuff is missing. I think it is a purposeful design choice. They want you to use the Deception (Create a Diversion) action to be able to sneak across a hallway. Just being sneaky is apparently not enough, you need to be cunning too.
I was theory-crafting a monk; and I think Dex-Monk is the way to go. The static bonus to damage isn't all that important, as you'll be getting extra dice later on. My "tech" in the monk build is to multi-class Cleric (of Irori) to get access to the "Deadly Simplicity" feat - that increases your die for unarmed by one step. Along with Fierce Flurry from the monk you get massive damage dice while flurrying. With Tiger stance and +2 armbands of mighty fists you have 3d12 tiger claws during a flurry. Apologies for any errors that may be present, but the build outline to level 10 is in the spoiler below: Unsung Himalaya: Unsung Himalaya Human Monk 10 (Cleric archetype) Perception 6 (E) Str 16 = 10 + 2 free + 4 boost
HP 158
unarmed +18 (3d8+3) B
level 1 - alertness [ancestry]; assurance (athletics [background]); crane stance [monk]
languages
ancestry (human)
general
monk
skill feats
special
weapons
skills
items
Copy-pasta of my post in a similar thread: My suggestion, keeping with the DCs as set forth by the playtest, is that the proficiency level should give a scaling benefit based on level:
All other things being equal (and assuming 0 other bonuses), at level 20 the disparity would be:
Note that this can have big impact on using skills in combat. At level 20 somebody that is merely an "expert" in Athletics is unlikely to be able to Disarm anybody. Although I specify +X per 5 levels; the actual skill growth would be smooth by level - not a lump-sum every 5 levels. An appropriate table or something would sort that out.
My suggestion, keeping with the DCs as set forth by the playtest, is that the proficiency level should give a scaling benefit based on level:
All other things being equal (and assuming 0 other bonuses), at level 20 the disparity would be:
Note that this can have big impact on using skills in combat. At level 20 somebody that is merely an "expert" in Athletics is unlikely to be able to Disarm anybody. Although I specify +X per 5 levels; the actual skill growth would be smooth by level - not a lump-sum every 5 levels. An appropriate table or something would sort that out.
That +2 on subsequent attacks is canceled out by the MAP of -5/-10. Edit: I stand corrected. I see it is an "attack" action and thus MAP applies |