Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Thank you very much. The blog post wasn't 100% clear to me with respect to what lengths the ACG goes to support the new material in existing classes.
If I may suggest: a monk archetype that gives up flurries for martial maneuvers, should please count the monk level as his BAB while using martial maneuvers. (Though I have a hard time imagining how the monk would stay competitive without an additional mechanic that is more damage orientated. I guess you could remove the ki pool instead to grant martial maneuvers; then you essentially have an unarmored brawler.)
Edit: Actually, let me re-think that last part: if a monk archetype gets martial maneuvers, then I'd suggest having it run on the monk's ki (if you actually remove the ki pool, then you suddenly have to add brawler's strike as well).
Slightly off-topic: will there be "old" class support in the ACG? I don't mean feats that happen to be available for everybody, but, for example, will there be a monk archetype that gives up flurries in favor of martial maneuvers, a paladin archetype that gets blessings, and so forth?
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
I think I'm sold on the feats, provided that the ACG makes a committed effort to have a big set of brawler-related class feats. Not just feats that the brawler will like, but the paladin and ranger take them too - I mean a good dozen feats that tie directly into the brawler's mechanics: flurry and martial maneuvers. (The flurry feats would also be a boon for the monk.)
2 to 3 more uses would still put it in the realm of feasible play. At 10th level it may not mean a full 3-feat use in every encounter, but you could get around three encounters worth out of it. With Con to daily uses, I could see myself only needing one Extra Maneuvers feat to feel comfortable about my brawler.
You're neglecting the +5 AC the monk gets as bonus AC. The brawler also gets +4 bonus AC but only if he doesn't use a shield (so we can neglect that aspect). The +5 monk bonus AC means 18 Wisdom is enough to get to brawler's AC and that much is pretty much expected for a high-level monk, even if he focuses on Strength. Any additional money spent by the monk to increase Wisdom and Dexterity will have him pull ahead of the brawler.
In contrast, all my monks have potions or wands of mage armor from level 1 onwards and have the barkskin ki power. Although the brawler can kickstart her AC with light armor, she also has a limit on maximum dexterity that can be applied. The brawler also has a harder time picking up natural AC unless she chooses to be a weapon-based brawler (as the amulet of mighty fists usually takes precedence). The brawler also forfeits her AC Bonus class feature when using a shield, so that offsets the gains a little bit.
Ah, there we are talking about different things, I'm referring to your disappointment in the brawler being better at unarmed smacking around than the monk.
I'd certainly take 2d8+3 at +3 to hit over 2d10. As is, the brawler already does about 30% more damage than a monk, according to my simulations and calculations before considering a weapon training upgrade.
Additionally, the brawler archetypes may be considerably more potent than many monk archetypes: any archetype that gives up flurry leaves the monk at 3/4 BAB, whereas the brawler would still retain a full BAB. A "master of many styles brawler" would on that simple basis be a greater force than the equivalent monk.
Adam Teles wrote:
Referring to the rogue talents: I agree, there should be a simple feat that grants anybody access to 1 rogue talent. That is something we can hope for.
As to the brawler disciplines: that is easy. You just need to give options that cater to the brawler's class abilities:
These could all be implemented as feats as well, and I'd welcome them all, but I don't think I'll have too much trouble coming up with twenty more. A given book may offer as many as three or so class specific feats and nobody would mind - but if you dedicate 10 or more feats to one class then people might pipe up. In contrast, nobody bats an eye when 10 new rage powers are added.
Adrenalin Rush and Evolving Maneuvers would be my primary examples of how a constant stream of new disciplines could be added that mimic the rage powers in that they only grant a bonus in a limited situation rather than all the time.
As a side thought, I don't think it is reasonable to ask for the brawler to be a less unarmed damaging class than the monk. It's essentially a bonafide unarmed specialist. The monk does many other things as well, but the brawler just goes around punching and kicking really hard.
@Dabbler: I disagree on the brawler having better defense. The monk in my playtests and builds always has better defenses (with the possible exception of Flat AC). From my stand-point the brawler has better HP and better damage - that's essentially the only point where it stands out from the monk. (It also has a much bigger feat pool for its bonus feats and of course Martial Maneuvers.)
Mechanically Sean mentioned that Extra Martial Maneuvers as a feat will exist. I'm concerned that this is a feat tax, as there are nowhere near enough uses per day. The only playtest responses I recall that didn't complain about the limited uses, were the ones that either didn't use it at all (due to unfavorable action economy) or those who fully refresh all stats on the brawler between every encounter.
hmmm... I don't think that is a fair assessment. The brawler is a very strong front-line fighter. She's got good DPR and a fair amount of on-the-fly adaptability. Her job is not to fly or outwit a cyborg; her job is to hit people in the face with her body really well. And she does that admirably. She can definitely play in the same DPR league as the other pure non-magic martial classes. As other similar classes, she needs to rely on items and allies for exotic things (such as flying).
If I would issue a complaint against the brawler, it is that she's very un-iconic. There's not much that stands out. (Well, that is a lie, once Knockout and Awesome Blow become available, then very iconic things become possible - but that is the brawler late-game.)
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
What I am actually proposing is that the brawler can take all the combat feats that she could've taken previously. Then she also has unique brawler-specific choices.
As to what is gained:
Brawler disciplines are not actually "new". It is a new name, but for a familiar class feature (rage powers, rogue talents, ninja tricks, oracle revelations, slayer talents, alchemist discoveries, magus arcana, arcanist exploit, investigator talent).
To devil's advocate myself a little: there are plenty of feats that are class specific, that enhance favored enemy for example, or grant additional rage rounds. So from that perspective my suggestion to have extra uses of Martial Maneuvers and longer duration Martial Maneuvers could very well be implemented as a feat.
I think, however, that it is fair to say that having those class specific options available at the class itself is more palatable to the user. I know that I can go to the rogue class in each of the hardcovers and easily browse the new talents available. It's much harder to eye through feats trying to find those feats relevant to your class.
Well, lets approach it from a different angle. The brawler disciplines that were suggested *are* very attractive and any number of martial classes would love to get their hands on them. (Though I'd be very - if pleasantly - surprised if they ever did make it into feat form).
But let's discuss the disciplines themselves: there is no reason why there can't be disciplines available that do not make sense as combat feats. For example disciplines that manipulate the Martial Maneuvers mechanic (2 extra uses a day, 2 minute duration, etc), or disciplines that improve/modify other brawler class abilities (such as a discipline to count as 2 levels higher for the Brawler's Strike, a discipline to increase the DC of knockout, and a discipline to use a specific non-monk non-close weapon in a flurry). Also disciplines that are "any combat feat, may be taken multiple times".
Sure... those things could also be implemented as combat feats; but they are very specific to the class and don't really offer anything to most other classes.
The important thing is that brawler disciplines could be a vehicle to present unique brawler options. Even some of the originally suggested disciplines: every martial class might want them, but maybe for balance reasons they should be limited to the brawler?
@LadyWurm: for the same reason that other melee classes (except for the monk, and a lesser extent barbarian) don't have Fast Movement. And just like other melee classes the brawler has no trouble picking up a crossbow and shooting it at an enemy.
+1 I'm all in favor of changes that give the brawler a unique feel. I'd vote for many more Brawler Disciplines though, both in terms of choices available as well as frequency (i.e. one discipline every 2 levels).
Just a different take on the Brawler's Strike DR discussion. Instead of the DR bypassing that is copied from the monk, what about:
"The enhancement bonus of the brawler's unarmed strike is considered 2 higher for the purpose of overcoming DR."
If the brawler hits reliably (which isn't impossible, especially in a party that might feature a bard and somebody to flank with) then picking up the "Hammer the Gap" feat will also work to overcome DR. Perhaps not as much as Vital Strike in one hit, but over 4+ consecutive hits the bonuses add up.
The party aspect in the discussion is somewhat underplayed up to now - a brawler benefits a lot from buffs, generally more so than other classes. A single-weapon fighter might only get +1/+1 to 2 attacks at level 8; but the brawler would get +1/+1 to 4 attacks.
A lot of theoretical discussion focuses on CR-equal opponents (such as a CR 10 to fight a level 10 hero). The CR system is balanced around a party of 4; so instead an appropriate 1v1 fight for a level 10 PC is a CR 7 to 8 monster.
A thought comes to mind: what about the idea that Martial Maneuvers are not limited to adding feats at all? Perhaps there could be a couple of specific other effects that could also be gained by spending Martial Maneuver uses? They would follow the same pattern (i.e. last for 1 minute, you could pick 2 different ones at level 6, you could mix-n-match feats and effects). Simple examples: grant +1 competence bonus to attack and damage for 1 minute; grant +1 competence bonus to saves for 1 minute; grant +4 competence bonus to CMD for 1 minute.
Knockout could be rolled into one of these effects that would become available at level 13.
Jason Wu wrote:
What does everyone think about expanding the choices for Martial Maneuvers to include style and/or performance feats?
bows profusely Master Wu! You are mistaken! Forgive this foolhardy keeper of the lore to point out that Martial Maneuvers already include style feats and performance feats - as both of those are also combat feats. The divine developers have foreseen the words that would come from your lips and have seen the wisdom thereof, for how else would your feat suggestion already be included in the ability? more profuse bowing
Sean, I previously posted something earlier about Brawlers getting their unarmed strike damage on weapons from the close weapon group and was wondering if you could give your opinion on whether you would feel that this would be too strong of an ability. Personally I, think it would be fine considering that they do not get any great options for ranged combat and it would fit well for the theme of the class in that it is the king of up close and personal.
I have a simple suggestion in this regard: why not allow the brawler to use her unarmed progression on weapons of the close weapon group equal to a brawler of half her level? In other words a level 10 brawler could use the unarmed dice of a level 5 brawler on weapons in the close weapon group.
I like the changes to the warpriest. I really do. I hope it will make it through to the final product with roughly that design.
I like all the changes on the brawler, but I don't want it to end there - it still feels a bit uninspiring. I have no doubt that the brawler is an effective unarmed combatant; but is that all there is to her?
I just, quietly, enjoyed reading the warpriest - and I must say, I think it is shaping up to be a great class. What bothers me in comparison to the brawler though (both being fighter-hybrids) is that the warpriest is more interesting. It inspires more ideas and has more (mechanical) toys to play with. I'm jealous of the warpriest, on the brawler's behalf. I really would like to see the "advanced" part of advanced class guide be added to the brawler.
hmmm... well sure. Houseruling anything is fine - and your ruling is as good as any you could ask for on the monk. My suggestion is aimed at having a small chance of becoming official printed Paizo material.
@Sean K Reynolds:
I'm not sure what the policy is for developers and what you may (or want) to talk about; but can you tell us what points of interest you are pursuing on the brawler? We (that is the public) could give some focused responses for those questions.
As a summary, I think the most prominent things to take from the thread up to now is that the new Knockout and Improved Awesome Blow are generally well received. And people generally still think there are not enough Martial Maneuver uses a day. (If possible, I'd really like to hear the reasoning for the very limited number of uses currently.)
Less Lawful, More Good wrote:
I for one am glad they get armor. I didn't want a high bab monk, I wanted a class that feels like a gritty thug, not some skilled martial artist. While there's room for polishing, I'm definitely happy with the feel of the class. If you want a monk, play a monk. If you want a guy who knocks someone's teeth out because he won't stop asking the party's bard to play Freebird, that's where the brawler comes in.
It's not about playing a monk though; it's playing a naked thug! Think Hulk, or in fact most of the superheroes - armor is rare for them. I am glad for the light armor proficiency too - I don't think it should be removed - but it should be viable to play a non-armored brawler.
Its not about having just A, or just B. It is about the freedom to take A or B and not having to suffer unduly for your decision.
@Jake the Brawler:
The problem is not just limited to a feat that adds AC when not in armor: there is also the (severe) temptation of having brawling armor. Getting a +1 brawling chainshirt (4000ish gp) is not just decent AC, it is an incredible +2 to attack and damage as well (that stacks with actual enhancement bonuses).
So there are many considerations, particularly from the developers, on how good the monk is and what can and cannot be done to improve his lot.
Something that crops up regularly is that (unarmed) monk's heavily miss out on enhancement bonuses to their attack. Although they get a nice progression in damage dice, the actual bonus to hit lags behind other classes that can cost-effectively purchase upgrades to their weapon (2000, 8000, etc) while the monk's amulet is double that (4000, 16000, etc).
Now granting a monk the same cost for the same benefit would be like a double-dip, you get naturally increasing fist damage, as well as bonus to attack and damage from the enhancements. That's not something that would fly. So I figured, why not get around that?
I propose a new weapon property:
In the grand scheme of things this does not resolve the discrepancy between a +10 weapon and a +5 amulet; but for the commonly played levels between 1 and 12 the precise ability would go a long way to offer parity between unarmed and weapon wielders. A +1 precise amulet (16000gp) compares favorably with a +3 weapon (18000gp).
LoreKeeper was that bit about one random feat referencing my post? I would also like to restate I agree that currently the number of times martial maneuvers can be used seems to low, for what seems to be the defining feature of the class it is quickly depleted.
Yes and no :)
I've previously (original brawler discussion) posted at length about the various possibilities (including builds) that can be designed around the Martial Maneuvers. In the post above I've used words to subtly reference your post to keep in the stream of consciousness.
Yep - you can get Combat Expertise, but your pretty face won't allow you to trip people easier.
To add my actual input on the revised brawler:
hehehe - okay okay Rynjin and Tels. I'm just echoing that there have been endless demands for a full-BAB monk.
From Paizo's perspective, the brawler is exactly that. In order to go d10 hitdie and full-BAB you have to give up some things. Also the alignment restriction on the monk was criticized, so that got dropped too. What you get is what the developers consider a balanced change to the monk to get more HP and BAB.
Sure... the monk-player's wet dream is getting the exact monk, but with full BAB and d10. And honestly, it is not like that would be broken strong in my opinion - but that isn't what Paizo is doing. They start from the premise that the monk is balanced, so to get from the monk to a full BAB d10 class, you need to balance away other things. And then you end up with the brawler.
I don't know that this is the rationale that the developers take - but I can very much imagine that this is what is happening. From a theoretical standpoint the changes balance against each other nicely. Good job there. But the end-result is just dull.
I think there's a divide here between expectations. To me it looks like Paizo is granting a long-standing wish of endless monk threads that asks for a "give us a full-BAB unarmed monk!" - and the brawler is exactly that. And since she counts as a fighter for feats she can get Weapon Specialization and similar feats, the brawler can compete in DPR with other front-liners. The brawler will have better DPR against the same target than the monk (based on the brawler getting more feats and fighter feats). But the brawler has significantly poorer defenses and mobility in combat. It balances out.
However, many playtesters and people in this thread (me included) want more from this class. Not more damage (that is fine), but being more than a non-mystic monk. The brawler is the purest and most exemplary class of a real "hybrid". Most of the other playtest classes step considerably further away from the bounds of their parent classes. The brawler is a monk without the supernatural, and her one truly unique ability is a way to manipulate what feats you have right now (essentially a beefed up form of fighter bonus feats).
The brawler perfectly captures the demands for a full-BAB monk. Those that want that, get that, no complaints. I can only speak for myself in this regard, but my primary grief with the brawler in his current form is that he does not create new theory space. If you pick through the brawler playtest builds: they are essentially a variation of popular monk builds (with a slight adaptation for light armor and having a bonus feat or two).
Not many players in the grand scheme of things like to constantly think through things, but for me the brawler is dull as she is essentially a solved problem.
You missed out on the recent dream encounter. Just because a lucky stun nerfed the fight, doesn't mean she wasn't a significant (CR6?) encounter. Not to mention our social encounters in Kalabuto.
September 2012... okay, we had some bouts of fairly slow postings too. Still... Navior? *nudgenudge*bambieyes*
Lorekeeper - my condolences and heartfelt wishes go out to you and your country today with the passing of Nelson Mandela.
Thank you. It... is hard to put into words, how people on a personal level, and the nation as a whole, respond to the event. It was an omen in the sky for a while now and things are moving swiftly - but underneath it all most people I have seen are swept away by their private reverence of the great man.
Actually that is a typo, Jason corrected it in post-1 of this thread. The unarmed progression is the same for monk and brawler.
Siegfried is an interesting point: isn't he really just a monk with a roleplayed fascination of music? He'd put skill ranks into perform (dance); but otherwise is a MoMS with Snake and Crane style (and quite possibly the Toughness feat and high constitution).
Kenichi himself, especially in the part of the story that the anime tells, to me is more like a monk (master of many styles) in training.
If we're talking brawlers then I think several characters from Tenjo Tenge come to mind. Especially Bob and my favorite character "Old Man" Bunshichi. (Again I recommend the manga, though the story arc the anime shows has its highlights.)
(Edit: fixed Bunshichi's link)
If you're referring to the anime, Tels, then I agree. I didn't enjoy the animated adaptation. Fortunately a friend convinced me to read the manga/comic instead - and that is vastly better than the animated version. I'd highly recommend it. The comic is still running and the story is roughly 5 times further than what the anime showed.
The big ones are the skills related to the Martial Maneuver ability, like Extra Maneuvers, Enduring Maneuver and Extra Maneuver feat. The reason is because these almost seem like mandatory. The 1 hour duration from selecting Enduring Maneuvers twice isn't so much necessary, especially if one were to take Extra Maneuvers. By 10th level, you have 20 uses of the ability, each lasting 10 minutes, just for taking Extra Maneuvers and Enduring Maneuvers (once). If you took it a second time, that's 20 hours of bonus feats.
The 1 hour duration upgrade is optional, I don't see many brawlers that feel the need to do that, but for certain builds it can be more convenient to set-and-forget your feats - those builds may want the hour duration option. (Additionally, since by using a single swift action to activate martial maneuvers, and since the duration resets on activation, a brawler doesn't need too many levels to effectively have his martial maneuver feats active all the time.
Even the "extra maneuvers" may not be needed for many; by default you'd end up with 10 uses at level 10. That is a reasonable amount and could be enough to "go big" in three separate encounters.
Many brawlers may even want to skip "enduring maneuvers", as they find their encounters tend to be over in less than a minute.
Finally "extra maneuver feat" is great, but you could instead just take "combat training" to get a permanent combat feat. So you can decide between certainty and flexibility.
It's really about choices; and I'm the type of guy that likes hard choices: do you want to take the 3 brawler skills that make martial maneuvers really powerful? Or would you rather spend those 3 brawler skills on getting 3 permanent combat feats? Or something else?
Extra Maneuver feat: is it 2 feats as a swift, 3 as a move, and 4 as a standard?
Not quite. The "extra maneuver feat" only raises the maximum number of feats allowed. At level 10 you could spend 1 standard and 1 swift action to activate all 4. Or you could spend 4 swift actions over 4 turns. Or a move action and 2 swift actions, etc. The "revised" martial maneuvers allow you to ramp up over time without losing previously selected feats. The only restriction is that you're not allowed to exceed the maximum for your level (and "extra maneuver feat" increases that maximum).
The other big thing is I notice you removed the bonus feats. This is kind of an issue, as, without the bonus feats, the class has a hard time meeting all the feat per-requisites for Martial Maneuvers. This kind of forces the class to only select between a handful of feats that it qualifies for, instead of being able to play a martial tool-box.
The bonus feats aren't really removed, they are rolled into the brawler skills as "combat training". Your brawler could take combat training 10 times in a row, essentially having all the bonus feats of a fighter (except the level 1 bonus feat). But then you give up all the neat class options that are specifically handy for a brawler.
Mathematically, on the original build there were 7 bonus feats. My suggestion grants 10 brawler skills. That means in principle you can take "combat training" 7 times and have all the bonus feats from the original brawler, and still have 3 brawler skills left for brawler specific upgrades. If you take "brawling dodger" once and "knockout", then you've essentially built the original brawler and still have one brawler skill to spare as an extra. Neat, huh? :)
I'm not sure I like that the Brawler can get up to a +6/+7 Dodge bonus using Brawling Dodger, but that would probably, at best, let the Bralwer keep even with most full-plate fighters or sword and boarders
Going all the way to +6/+7 dodge bonus requires a substantial investment in terms of brawling skills. It may make sense for a particular brawler, but probably not all. Most may be happy with just 1 rank in this brawler skill (which is roughly as powerful as the original AC bonus in the brawler class). Personally I think this option is necessary to make an unarmored brawler viable at all. People seem to forget that some brawlers aren't just about the unarmed strike - they're about the naked unarmed strike. Armor shouldn't be a requirement to play the class.
The brawler suggestion only showcases the concept. If Paizo were to design along those lines, I'd really hope for them to add a number of additional options. The more options, the more classic "brawler" tropes can be explored. Drunken brawler, old man that still packs a punch, break through objects with your punch, etc.
Is it just me, or is this chick Seoni's evil brunette identical cousin a la Bewitched and I Dream of Jeannie? Same dress, same leg tattoos, same silicone enhancements....
I GM WoR for one of my real-life groups, and although I've not reached that book yet, I do know that shapechanging/disguising succubi are entirely "common" in the AP. I would not be surprised at all if that is what is being hinted at in that cover.
(And any email to my players inevitably starts with "WoR... WoR never changes")
Thanks :) - to be honest I've got different ideas about most of the class abilities on the brawler; but I decided an evolutionary suggestion will allow the focus to be on the brawler skills, rather than a revolutionary suggestion where too much is going on.