ElvenDancer's page

Amber_Stewart wrote:

It's probably worth noting that the funnel of eroded quintessence from the Maelstrom back to the positive energy plane isn't natural per se, but due to the intervention of the aeons at a location/object known as the Antipode. The proteans of course are not happy about this because without it, their desire to return the static portions of the cosmos back to their own ever-changing, fluidic reality that it all first arose from would proceed much, much faster.

More evidence at Aeons and Proteans always having been at odds even in 1e? ;D

(on sidenote, yes this is how it has always worked in 1e as well. I don't particularly find it that "sour", you could call it bittersweet, but I think humans should be able to let go of concept of eternity as everything always ends eventually.)

But yeah, seriously though, existing for 1,000,000 years would most likely be pretty horrifying especially if you have perfect memory of it <_< Ennui and all that jazz. Eventually you have experienced everything you can imagine and everything feels too samey.

I also think that lot of people who ask this question think it from christian perspective rather than like Buddhist perspective and such. The soul can go through reincarnation through multiple times before being judged and even then natural process of petitioner melding into plane varies between petitioners and always takes long time. But just fact is that eventually it will get bored of existing.

(Sidenote: I've always been kinda wondering if Christian heaven as described is form of brainwashing, since place where you are eternally happy sounds impossible to my depression and anxiety filled brain without several altering of how my brain works :p)

I think petitioners not having full mortal memories while still retaining the personality is actually really merciful because most mortals would kinda go mad at existing that long time. I think part of reason why aligned outsiders don't have free will or mortal memories is because it helps...

I wasn't necessarily coming at it from a Christian perspective (though maybe it was a subconscious projection, given the fact I live in a "western" society), and I've done some studies of Buddhism, though my knowledge is still limited. Perhaps it is merely the "form" of existence that changes. So, in becoming "one with the universe", so to speak, you aren't *you* anymore, but you are still a part of the whole, even if you no longer exist in the conventional sense (a kind of non-self, if you will). The higher form of self, if I can call it that, is not the "self" that was you, but it isn't a total cessation of existence, either, even though the "you" part of it is gone, as you have obtained a higher form. You can call this one with the universe/god, or whatever you want.

You, Castilliano, and others have pointed out things that I hadn't really thought of: such as eternity, even a happy one, eventually becoming "hell", or at the very least, boring, so the petitioner would want a change (and what that change was could be reincarnation, melding with a god or plane, or anything else, like what I mentioned above).

The loss of memory has the interesting side effect that Golarion religions cannot really promise you an afterlife you will enjoy. But only an afterlife your future amnesiac you will enjoy, which is not much TBH. And there are no mechanical consequences for changing which deity you worship.

So which deity you will choose to worship will be based on the closeness of your respective viewpoints. And Clerics have the awesome ability to gain real magical power from this.

This is why I think it's a bit contradictory. You worship the deity based on your morals/ethics/views, etc, and presumably (barring anything happening) go to the plane of that deity, yet are stripped of the "you" that made you suited to that deity.

Then again, memories are experiences, and while personality is shaped by experiences, there is the "essence" of the soul/energy that is "you", regardless of memory. This of course is getting into what a soul is, metaphysics, and other philosophies, but I'm going off the idea of what a soul is (or tends to be), in TTRPGs. Ie, a petitioner. So, you may be made into a blank slate, but the amnesiac you is still the "soul". Hmm

So in discussing this elsewhere, someone recently told me that according to the Mummy's Mask adventure when the soul arrives to its appropriate plane, it's memories are erased. Could someone please elaborate on this? Does the soul maintain its basic personality (at least until it enters the maelstrom) but loses the memories of its life, or is it a true blank slate, to where there is no real identifying traits? Seems kind of contradictory to me that you are sent to the god/plane best suited to you, but are basically turned into a blank slate (which would get rid of anything that made you "suited" for the plane). Clarification and explanation would be greatly appreciated.

Late to this. How do I get access to past chapters that have been sent?

Pathfinder Tales was what introduced me to Pathfinder, and I miss the novels, so to have some fiction again, even though it's only through email, is better than nothing.

I wasn't thinking so much about whether a soul is resurrected or not not (such as the GM allowing for a player's character to be resurrected), but more about what happens to that soul after they go through the Boneyard and go to their respective afterlife.

Well, consider what permanent is from the perspective of beings that can survive for millenia. If a mortal dies, is judged, and then goes on to ...say, Heaven, and does eventually become quintessence, does the fact that it took 120,000 years make it weaker or less amazing?

It's different for everyone, and everything, with a soul, I'm sure. We get an example of one NPC in a certain AP who was alive over 10,000 years ago, and we see them as an outsider in our current time in-game. They went beyond petitioner and are still in existence, and that's wild.

What time means to an outsider, petitioner, or god is entirely different than what it means to us, I think; the life cycle, in their planar view, is always in motion, sure, and nothing lasts forever, but in comparison to the brief time that PCs/NPCs have on the plane, it can sure feel like forever!

Mmm, these are very good points. I hadn't really thought of it like that. It's still plenty of time to be reunited with friends and loved ones (assuming you end up in the same realm, at least). Time doubtless has different meaning. It still makes me a little sad, but I guess becoming quintessence isn't truly ceasing to exist, and goes with the idea that energy can never be created or destroyed, only changed.

Bit thanks to everyone who responded. I had not known that outsider was a term for demons, angels, etc, so that makes more sense now.

Again, I am only a casual fan of Pathfinder, but I had been under the impression from James Sutters' wonderful Death's Heretic and Redemption Engine books, and just the description of souls going to the Boneyard, and then to their appropriate destination, made it seem that the afterlife was more...permanent, I guess. I'm kind of disappointed to learn that isn't the case. On one hand, it reminds me of Planescape, but even in Planescape, at least in the book On Hallowed Ground, even when the soul merges with a deity or a plane, they retain a sense of identity/consciousness.

That doesn't seem to be the case here. From what others have described, it sounds like the soul (or outsider) eventually becomes plane material/ quintessence, and then that eventually dissolves into the maelstrom (presumably losing all form of sentience), and then the maelstrom spits out the plane material (likely at this point mixed with other plane material) into the positive energy plane, then finally this energy goes back to the material plane and becomes a soul. A weird kind of reincarnation, except it may not even be the same soul. Hmm. Not sure how I feel about this lol.

I fully admit I am still only a casual fan of Pathfinder. I've been a Forgotten Realms fan for years, and was introduced to Pathfinder during a brief time I played with a group that disbanded. But I became curious enough about the setting to do some casual research, and, being a bookworm (or, as I like to say, bookwyrm), I was happy to see there were Pathfinder Tales. Of course, now the novel line has been on hiatus. I stopped paying attention to Pathfinder. With 2E out now, I am slowly poking my nose back in lol, but I am curious about something that those more knowledgeable will hopefully be able to answer:

My understanding was that souls went to the Boneyard, where they then went to their deity, or were judged by Pharasma. They would then spend their eternity in that afterlife (or, I know elves were sometimes reincarnated).

In Lost Omens World Guide, it says this: "When most mortals speak of the afterlife, they're talking about the Outer Sphere--realms ruled by gods and the transformed souls of the dead. Here the River of Souls ends in the Boneyard, where the godddess Pharasma judges each individual and assigns them to a realm according to their morality and beliefs. These souls eventually become outsiders, or fade into the very fabric of the planes themselves." (pg 10).

It's this last sentence that is tripping me up, and seems to contradict things a bit from P1. What does it mean by outsider, and why do they eventually fade into the "very fabric of the planes"? This kind of reminds me of the Planescape model, where a soul sometimes becomes either part of the plane, enriching it, or becomes a part of their deity. But in these cases, according to On Hallowed Ground, they maintain a sense of consciousness and personality. But at least in the World Guide, the description is so vague I can't really get a sense of what they meant.

I'm not very religious irl, but I love gods and afterlife stuff in fantasy, so I was intrigued by the descriptions in P1, but I don't really like the idea of "fading into the fabric of the planes". And again, what is meant by the outsiders?

When it coems to P2, I only have the World Guide, so I don't know if this is elaborated on elsewhere. Any explanation would be helpful. TIA.

Sorry if this has been asked; I did not read through the entire thread. Does this book also have anything on the planes and/or afterlife-y stuff? I take it there is at least a little about it on the entry of Pharasma?

Super late to the game but just hoping that Paizo finds a way to revive the Tales line. I'm not in to Golarian as a game setting, but I love the books. Given that The Witcher is making a splash on streaming recently, this really does seem like a good market for it, if the Tales series could be rebranded with flashier and "less game book" looking styles designed to attract not just gamers who read but general readership audiences as well. I feel the same can be said of WotC, which has gone on without fiction supporting their game lines for long enough that the absence is felt and the market is ready to be revisited now.

Same. I miss the Forgotten Realms novels (Drizzt isn't enough by any means). I heard Critical Role is getting a novel later this year, though I don't know if that is through WotC or not, but considering Wildemont is an official D&D setting, something seems to have been worked out.

Not everyone likes audible, and it wouldn't necessarily be cheaper. Their best bet would of course be all 3 formats.

The God of Death is an Ascendant named Hood. Those who die pass through Hood's Gate into his warren, which is the one warren it's impossible to return from. Souls queue up outside the gate and if you can recover a soul before it passes through, it can be reincarnated (the Wickan people have a special ritual for this) or reconstituted as a ghost. Actual resurrection is possible but it requires the intervention by a god who gives up a small part of their power (presumably to Hood) for the pleasure.
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Is there any knowledge of what is beyond the Gate--well, presumably Hood's realm, but I mean is there any knowledge of what kind of realm this is (gloomy like Hades, or more like Elysium), or is this left to the imagination?

ElvenDancer wrote:

I know this thread is old now, but I came across it while Googling info about this series. It only shows part of your review, but I wanted to focus on what you said about the death of characters. I may be in the minority here, but the return of dead characters, or having scenes in the afterlife, tends to be a plus for me. I like worlds with established afterlives (I specifically Googled "afterlife in Malazan", which is how I found this thread. I have been hearing a lot about this series, and am always keen on finding a new epic. Again, I know this thread is old now, but if anyone would be willing to tell me about the gods (if there are in) and afterlife in Malazan, please enlighten me. I have asked in other places, and answers are eithe vague or nonexistent. Sorry to revive an old thread, but I am curious!

That's a very difficult question to answer. Malazan has gods and demigods (Ascendants) who have worshippers and immense powers. The proper gods are, interestingly, restricted to their home planes (or warrens); if they venture or are torn into the mortal realm, they lose power and become vulnerable. Ascendants, who still live in the mortal realm but have access to greater powers, are stronger as they have the best of both worlds.

Do the souls of their worshippers go to their home plane, then? What is the "basic afterlife" for someone who has died? By this I mean, the destination of the soul of your average Joe. Has this been explained? The OP mentions there are scenes in the afterlife, and people coming back from the dead, so I assume their souls are hanging out somewhere?

The Malazan Book of the Fallen is a series of epic fantasy novels written by Canadian author Steve Rune Lundin under the pen-name Steven Erikson. The series is currently planned to extend to sixteen novels comprising three distinct acts. The first act consists of ten books and is almost complete, with the final book out in January 2011. The remaining two acts are two trilogies, a prequel series set hundreds of thousands of years prior to the main sequence and a sequel immediately following on from the main series.

The Malazan world was created by Steven Erikson and his friend and collaborator Ian Cameron Esslemont. Esslemont is writing a companion series, The Tales of the Malazan Empire, which is planned to run to six books. The third in this series, Stonewielder, is due out in November this year. The complete Malazan experience will thus run to twenty-two books and a number of novellas and short stories. The two writers have also announced a companion volume which will be published at an indeterminate point and have not ruled out additional books, although these may be less connected to the central storylines of the two series.

I know this thread is old now, but I came across it while Googling info about this series. It only shows part of your review, but I wanted to focus on what you said about the death of characters. I may be in the minority here, but the return of dead characters, or having scenes in the afterlife, tends to be a plus for me. I like worlds with established afterlives (I specifically Googled "afterlife in Malazan", which is how I found this thread. I have been hearing a lot about this series, and am always keen on finding a new epic. Again, I know this thread is old now, but if anyone would be willing to tell me about the gods (if there are in) and afterlife in Malazan, please enlighten me. I have asked in other places, and answers are eithe vague or nonexistent. Sorry to revive an old thread, but I am curious!

It's weird because I wasn't confused in the slightest. The wording seemed enitrely in line with how the Aroden plot has always been presented entwined with prophecy, which is a prominent central part of world at least in Paizo's focus on Inner Sea.

I'm not as familiar with the setting. I've been involved in Forgotten Realms lore for several years, but I'm new to Pathfinder, so I don't know all the details or nuances yet. When I saw the description of Lost Omens, I was trying to find which god it could be referring to, and I noticed Pharasma had prophecy listed in her portfolio. I supposed I could have looked up the history (I have a few of the lore books). Had I been more familiar with the wording, I likely wouldn't have been as confused ^^; but, being as this is the 2nd edition, I am not sure how much they had changed in regards to the lore (FR sometimes fluctuates from edition to edition).

ElvenDancer wrote:

All right, thanks for the explanation everyone. I appreciate it.

You're quite welcome. I, at least, am always happy to be of assistance. :)

I knew Aroden had died prior to the P1 timeline, but I got confused because of Pharasma also was listed as having prophecy in her portfolio, and, since I didn't know what changes P2 was bringing, I was worried it was referring to her lol.

All right, thanks for the explanation everyone. I appreciate it.

I was looking at products for P2, and I saw the Pathfinder Omens of the Lost World Guide available for preorder. In the description, it says the god of prophecy is dead. Isn't this Pharasma (sp?), who is also the goddess of death? What kind of changes will this bring to the fate of souls? Do they automatically go to the realms of their gods (which would be fine), bypassing Pharsma?

It does get annoying when settings kill off gods (Forgotten Realms is guilty of this, too), but maybe someone else has more info or could clarify? What exactly are the world changes in P2? Do we know?

I am still new to PF. I was drawn in by the novels, but I haven't finished them, since it's unclear when/if they will be picked up again, so I apologize if this has already been discussed.

I agree that 2e would be the perfect time to relaunch the novel line. Like others have said, novels are often what get me interested in a setting (it was this way with Forgotten Realms). I'm an avid reader. I still have some PF Tales I haven't read yet, and I will get around to it, but reading them gives me a kind of bittersweet feeling.

Any news on this since June? I somehow just discovered Pathfinder Tales and powered through the Dave Gross Radovan and the Count novels (anybody know if he has more planned?), and I'm hungry for more, planning on reading all the other Tales content in the meantime.

I haven't read all of them yet, either, but I have them all. James Sutter's Death's Heretic and Redemption Engine are also really good.

I'm glad we won't see a huge change between 1e and 2e (I'm used to Forgotten Realms, with a drastic shift every edition), but will the PF Tales reflect the changes that *are* there, if there are any?

So, they're on the lookout for publishers, but Tales isn't a priority right now. I would hope that, with the rumors that some changes are coming with 2e, the changes will be reflected in the novels, too, so we can see them in an actual story.

My fingers are still crossed. I am hoping for good news soon.

This is probably none of my business, but why have so many people left? Also, glad for the update, even if it isn't what I was hoping to hear.

Which is surprising, considering how many people are obviously upset by the lack of novels.

Shame that Sutter left. I'm still in the process of buying all the PF novels. I'm hoping the line doesn't get left behind. Why are all my favorite game setting novel lines getting cut off (FR and PF)?

Sad to see you go. I really enjoyed Death's Heretic and the Redemption Engine

I really-really hope they'll work it out. The fiction line added sooo much depth to the setting and gave us some really memorable characters, it was really what sucked me in for the setting. Also, it was quite bad already, to lose the D&D novel line but at least Paizo carried the torch in this regard too and with good books. It'd be terrible to lose them too. :(

This is my feeling, too. I haven't read all the PF books yet (though I plan to), but I have enjoyed the ones I have read so far. As a long time fan of Forgotten Realms, I was saddened by the fact that there are no new novels in the foreseeable future. I turned to Pathfinder, but now they seem to have hit a similar block. I think the novels add depth to the setting, and get people interested who otherwise may not be. As a bookworm, I know I became interested in D&D through the novels.

Any updates?

ElvenDancer wrote:

The Thing From Another World wrote:

I hope whatever issues they have with the novels is settled asap as with the lack of novels being released by Wotc the Pathfinder tales book were my replacement.

Same here. It's bad enough there aren't anymore FR novels for the forseeable future. Now there are complications with PF Talws, too :(

What happened to the FR line of Novels?

As of now, there are no new FR novels in the works. I don't want to say the line has ended, as WotC could change their mind, but it's "on hold", so to speak.

I hope whatever issues they have with the novels is settled asap as with the lack of novels being released by Wotc the Pathfinder tales book were my replacement.

Same here. It's bad enough there aren't anymore FR novels for the forseeable future. Now there are complications with PF Talws, too :(

Just finished reading Queen of Thorns. I was going to add this to my original comment, but it's been too long and I can no longer edit it. I realize earlier comments were discussing the elves, so apologies again if this has already been mentioned (I don't really feel like reading through a 116 page thread).

I love elves (even though they can be arrogant and xenophobic), but I'm not a huge fan of Calistria being their favored goddess. That said, I was happy to see that the gender of a lover doesn't seem to matter much (this was implied in the beginning at the Midsummer Masquerade), and by Varial's implied bisexuality. This doesn't mean all elves are bisexual, but there does appear to be acceptance in, if not always the race of the lover, then at least the gender.

Again, I would have added this to my initial comment, but I hadn't yet read Queen of Thorns. Just my two coppers. As someone who feels strongly about this in the real world, I am always happy to see it in "mainstream" literature.

It sucks to hear this news, I have been loving the Pathfinder Tales - they are actually the reason I wanted to get into the RPG. A lot of people are saying they want to go back to smaller format on the books, but I very much prefer the Trade a Paperback format. I would choose trade over mass market every single time if they were side by side options (even if trade was more expensive). Just my two coppers.

Me too. Well, technically I played the RPG first, but I only played it twice, then the group I was gaming with fell apart (drama). The Forgotten Realms novel line has ended for the foreseeable future, so I decided to start reading Pathfinder Tales. It's sad to hear this novel line is facing issues, too. But so long as there is there the promise of more novels once negotiations are met, I can wait til 2018. I have plenty to read within and outside PT. But I hope to see more soon.

You know, I would love a set of anthologies with the complete webfiction stories. And they might even help get new readers into the series. They're short, and varied - delightful tastes into the world of Golarion. Enough to hook readers, and varied enough that readers will think "I'm getting a lot of stories for the price!"

Another thing that might help is some sort of official guide to the webfiction and novels. Given how many there are now, its a bit overwhelming. Not to mention the variations in genre. I've started a list myself of which stories are set in which region, ands I might start adding genres to that list (as well as making a separate list with them sorted by genre, instead of region).

I agree with this. It would be nice to know which web fiction and short fiction correlates to which novel(s). And having them in an anthology would make them more accessible. I mean, they're easy enough to get online, true, but a collection of them would make them easier to find/read.

ElvenDancer wrote:

I absolutely loved this book. Salim is such an interesting character, and, like in Death's Heretic, I enjoyed seeing the different planes (I like stories featuring gods, or at least their servitors, and the various afterlives). And in RE, we get angels. The idea of a fallen angel and rising devil is something I have played with in my own writing, so that was interesting to see. And I always love things with angels.

Bors and Roshad...omg. I loved them so much. I didn't know about the web fiction that came before RE, but oh well, I still enjoyed it. I really like the idea of the Iridian Fold men, and would like to read about more men who have taken that path. True "soulmates". It made me happy to see this in a PF novel.

I have not read many PF Tales yet, but the Salim books have been fascinating. Thanks, James Sutter, for a good read. I hope to see more such novels :).

Hey, thank you for the review! And for your thread necromancy. :D

You're welcome on both accounts :)

I absolutely loved this book. Salim is such an interesting character, and, like in Death's Heretic, I enjoyed seeing the different planes (I like stories featuring gods, or at least their servitors, and the various afterlives). And in RE, we get angels. The idea of a fallen angel and rising devil is something I have played with in my own writing, so that was interesting to see. And I always love things with angels.

Bors and Roshad...omg. I loved them so much. I didn't know about the web fiction that came before RE, but oh well, I still enjoyed it. I really like the idea of the Iridian Fold men, and would like to read about more men who have taken that path. True "soulmates". It made me happy to see this in a PF novel.

I have not read many PF Tales yet, but the Salim books have been fascinating. Thanks, James Sutter, for a good read. I hope to see more such novels :).

I hope the novel line isn't cancelled. I just started reading them lol.

Stopping by to introduce myself (I hope this is the correct place).
I am still fairly new to the Pathfinder setting. I have been a Forgotten Realms fan for years, and have recently discovered Pathfinder. I have read a few of the PF Tales, but likely won't comment much until I have a better grasp of the world. I just wanted to introduce myself (if this is the wrong place I apologize).

In the FR setting, some of my favorite aspects were the elves and the gods, and that is likely to be the case with Pathfinder, too lol. I don't game much, but I love reading the novels.

I may comment on a thread now and then, or post a review on a book or short story, but I'll probably just hang out for a while.

I realize this thread old, and people probably don't want to see it again. It was obviously a hot topic when it first started. But being new here, I just wanted to add my thoughts, even as I realize the discussion has veered somewhat from the OP.

As someone who reads a lot of BL (boys love) manga and m/m romance novels, and as someone who has volunteered at and LGBTQ resource center, I am all about inclusiveness in gaming and novels (I know several people of the LGBTQ community who are gamers, and I fully admit I am a sucker for same-sex relationships, particularly m/m. I'm a sap, what can I say?). Such things are a "niche" now, but I hope they one day become more mainstream. When I read the PF novel "Redemption Engine", I was thrilled about Bors and Roshad (I'm still fairly new to the novels, so that's the only same-sex relationship I have seen so far, but it made me smile).

Anyway, just wanted to add my thoughts and support to those who want to bring more inclusiveness into the gaming world. Again, I don't mean to resurrect an old discussion, I just wanted to share my thoughts as a newcomer.