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BigNorseWolf's page

RPG Superstar 9 Season Dedicated Voter. FullStarFullStarFullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 22,255 posts (23,177 including aliases). 14 reviews. 4 lists. No wishlists. 25 Pathfinder Society characters. 3 aliases.


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Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

The "proper" name does sound kinda funny

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

trollbill wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
trollbill wrote:


So you are saying GMs have earned the right to game the system in this manner? (Not arguing with that, just getting a clarification)

Its not gaming the system. Its an advantage inherent in DM credit, so a feature not a bug.

So, semantics then?

If you're not putting the intent into your words yes its semantics.

If you are intending the insult its an important difference.

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Alric Rahl wrote:

Whats The point of owning a Slave then?? if they have no stats and you get no mini for the board why spend the gp?? seems like a waste to me. I would want a slave to carry my pack, hold a torch, stand watch at night and warn of danger, possibly pick locks and or send them forward as a way to search for traps. The last one being if I was evil.

Otherwise there is no point to owning a slave other than to say "Hey look I own a slave"....

You can buy a bunch of them and do the whole prince ali entrance thing...

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

trollbill wrote:


So you are saying GMs have earned the right to game the system in this manner? (Not arguing with that, just getting a clarification)

Its not gaming the system. Its an advantage inherent in DM credit, so a feature not a bug.

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

trollbill wrote:


but I have never heard anyone complain about GMs using GM credits to game the system. So why is it okay for GMs to game the system with GM credits, but not okay for players to game the system by using the 2nd level rebuild rules? What is the actual difference?

The DM put a lot more work into it, and skipping level 1 is likely his only reward.

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

It sounds like there was a little bit of a miscommunication between you and the players. Some players role play it out and then wait for the DM to ask for a diplomacy check. The party WAS diplomacising them, the players just weren't making the checks.

Sounds more chaotic than evil. He surrendered, then changed his mind. Chaotic prerogative.

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

Elizabeth Corrigan wrote:

I ran this last week in the low tier. A player solved the puzzle right away.

One question I had---Henbane doesn't have knowledge(local), at least not at low tier, didn't check high. To use her bane ability, she has to be able to id the creature. Can we assume she knows the basic Society humanoids? Does she have to roll a 10 untrained to target them?

I've seen some variation on whether an inquisitor can set their bane to "THAT THING!" or not.

Most humanoids are going to be a DC 10 though.

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

Its a minor tweak. Go for it. Your character is still basically the same , recognizable, and hasn't altered their appearance, personality, or narrative role. No cheese.

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 9

2 people marked this as a favorite.

So who else is spamming F5 on GITP ?

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

nosig wrote:
If we have someone who is a jerk and give him an Iconic/Generic PC, he is still a jerk. He can still ruin everyone's day

You have some people that consider it jerk behavior to do more damage than they do (or in some cases, deal almost as much damage as them) Animal companions are a very easy way to do that.

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

Nefreet wrote:

Someone else suggested that "newly created" could also mean "recently created" rather than "brand new".

You create xxxx-1 on Friday, apply credit Saturday, and then more credit Sunday. The character is only 48 hours old. That seems "newly created", he argues.

I believe that newly created means "has not been played at second level to solidify yet" . I vaguely recall that being clarified in one of the boon applying threads.

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

Finlanderboy wrote:
Mirza of Osirion wrote:
I personally prefer when Fluffy is on the same initiative as me. Streamlines the process.

nothing is stopping you from rolling twice and take the lower to streamline it.

Most people are fine with that.

Another solution is riding your pet around, at least until combat starts, because this way you and your mount sharea the same initiative*

*use only for streamlining purposes. Do not use to max out fluffies initiative. Do not use if nursing, pregnant, or may become pregnant after contact with a WISC, slaad, or other creature lacking bilateral symmetry. If the taste of cheese persists for more than 4 hours contact your cleric...

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

Pink Dragon wrote:

No in my case, because the existing Faction names are actually irrelevant. I used existing Faction names as a matter of convenience.

My thesis is to get away from external philosophical considerations in connection with Factions and propose Factions whose tenets relate to the operations of the Pathfinder Society as a Society whose overall mission is to collect, catalogue and understand archaeological items.

The main reason that a lot of people are playing pathfinders is because they have to for the campaign. Allowing people to have outside interests gives a lot more encouragement for pathfinders to differentiate themselves as individuals, and thats a good thing.

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 9

N. Jolly wrote:
I actually have a question here, so I know that the 'double tap' weapon have been made into a standard action, does this also apply to the double shotgun? It didn't make a second attack like the other double barreled weapons, so does the errata effect it in the same way? I'm assuming so, I just want some confirmation here.

yes its in the faq.

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 9

Quote:
Are not all feats listed under Style Feats in UC considered style feats for the purpose of this section of MoMS?

No. Only the first feat in the chain has (style) listed with it. Most of the rest are combat feats. MOMS used to have language that said "and associated feats" that has since been removed.

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

Uncle Ook wrote:

It looks like I will be GMing a couple adventures at Queen City Conquest, so I was wondering if anyone has had their GM bring either the acrylics or table tents for people to fill out?

I know I would prefer to use the character's names and it doesn't seem like most players bring their own.

Just hand out card stock scraps folded in half. work almost as well and are MUCH cheaper.

Thinking about carving a tent or two out of some basswood i have lying around..

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 9

A bag of devouring gets 10% of the items

They don't let you into the contest if they don't like you

The NSA uses the contest to search for the filigree serial graffiti artist

chocholate will increase your chances of winning

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

Roll separately and take the lowest, or delay until your animal goes/have your animal delay for you. Otherwise you're going to run into the tangled mess of what fluffy does on init 10 when when was told to bite orc 1 on initiative count 20 but the barbarian beheaded them on init 15.

Switching turns and getting the player going is sometimes half of the turn. Giving a player two turns is going to exacerbate that.

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

They're a must at cons. No way you're keeping 15+ names strait all day.

Even if you do have to ask Grark Grimdark for a ride to the hotel...

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 9

A lot of classes seem to have awesome stuff up front but run out of ideas down the line. I mean are you really going to stick with rogue from level 5 to 10 for advanced talents that you may never get to use before the campaign goes poof?

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 9

Its usually a mix. I try to dial the skill and wit up or down to give the players a bit more of a fight or to not permanently kill anyone.

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 9

Hayato Ken wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

stuff

Let´s see:-enlarge person

-combat reflexes
-a polearm

What else is needed there?

Some way of being enlarged, quickly, every fight, or it eats into your increasingly important as you level action economy.

A lot of hit points, because you'll still get hit.
Good strength for the weapon

Good str to do damage, dex for all the AoOs (you lose 1 when you enlarge) , con to take the hits and make the fort save from things that make it rhough, int for the combat expertise feat tax (rogue elven branched spear fighter can't quite DUMP strength but can lower it a fair bit)

Phalanx fighter, because friends always get in the way.

Combat expertise and improved trip feat taxes. (as opposed to everything in the snap shot chain, which is awesome enough to take on its own)

a way of dealing damage in range, like a bite of a dwarven boulder helmet

ways to fly , because sometimes opponents are 50 feet up.

Has less ways to deal subdual damage, deal with invisibility, or break out just the right arrow from the golfbag full of arrows to deal with damage reduction/hardness.

Quote:
Also they can have effects ride on that like maneuvers (trip) and stand still, disruptive, etc. Ranged maneuvers are full round actions.

Stand still only works against an adjacent opponent so its neigh useless for a pole arm fighter. (or anyone really...)

Quote:
An archer is more vulnerable

They're supposed to be.

Quote:
You talking about Transformers there?

I'm talking about narrative roles and jobs. Guy with a pole arm is supposed to be the meat shield. Him being a pointy wall of death makes the mechanics fit his role. The archer is supposed to kill stuff way over there, not kill stuff way over there faster than anyone else AND be a better pointy wall of death than the pointy wall of death.

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 9

Hayato Ken wrote:

There´s many people arguing that archers are already strong and should not get better things than people with reach weapons.

Also some think it shuts down the game in some aspects, because it is too strong.
The whip mastery nerf falls into the same boat.
Also snap shot is for gunslingers too.

The enlarged person with a pole arm SHOULD be covering the battlefield with a very large pole arm: its what they do. Its probably all they do besides whack something once. The enlarge part really stretches your action economy, usually requiring the round to drink a potion.

The archer/gunslinger is pumping out arrows like a machine gun on their turn AND has a better pole arm than the pole arm.

Biying the best car around and getting the best car is fine. Having it have a jet mode is ok, but when you buy the best car and it turns into the best jet.... something has gone wrong.

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

rknop wrote:
Did most people do this? No... but those were the rules.

That was not a rule. That was your judgement call.

Getting those two mixed up is one thing that will slow your players to a crawl.

Quote:
If you really want your animal companion to be able to do almost anything, you almost certainly need to max out Handle Animal, and not dump Charisma.

This is very ineffective to the point of not being a viable option in combat. Even on flutter, who has an obscene charisma for a druid and a circlet of persuasion this wasn't really viable in combat until level 8 or so.

Before deciding that an action you want the animal to take is something that needs to be pushed rather than a required secondary power for one of the other tricks please consider that you're making it almost impossible for the character regardless of their charisma score.

Quote:
That's just part of playing an AC-focused Druid; if you don't do that, then you're gimping your animal companion... unless you're counting on having a DM that will let you get away with the shenanigans you try to pull in the interest of not slowing the game down.

Its not shenanigans. If theres a trick for it the dc 10 is automatic. If there's no trick for it the DC 25 is so far out of the range of a reliable in combat roll that a few points on your charisma won't matter.

Quote:

If your animal companion doesn't have a climb speed, and you're trying to get them to follow you down a rope or other place where people have to climb, then you're going to have to push your animal companion. This is usually out of combat, so you can usually get it to go. But, this is just one example of things people should have to think about if they want to bring their animal companion places.

Out of combat why waste time rolling though? You know they'll hit a 25 eventually

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

Free action Seek. Standard action ready For fluffy to reach the X

Fluffy reaches the X LIGHTNING STRIKE Free action "Sick the charred one!"

That still leaves you just before fluffy in the init order, which is where he started. If fluffy beats you he delays until you order him to act.

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

Kevin Willis wrote:


Animal companions are either run very fast or really slow the game down. At the "fast" end are the players who have already counted squares, know their tricks, and make their attacks quickly.

At the slow end are the players who simply don't understand how handling animals works.

-"Fluffy will attack that skeleton." "Does he know attack any target?" "Huh?"

DM: riiight. No tricks. Write this on the sheet: Attack attack come down heel seek. We'll try to find you an archive by next level..CHomp away.

Quote:
-"Fluffy will run around the pit trap and behind that guy." "Do you have a copy of the Animal Archive and did you teach Fluffy the Flank trick?"

Without having the animal archive there's no real way a player can tell that flanking isn't something an animal is supposed to be able to do on its own.

Quote:
"Huh?" "OK, he'll just try to attack his target from the closest he can then. Unless he has some kind of special sense he's going to trigger that pit trap. I'll let you push him to warn him around the trap instead of him taking the most direct route." "What do you mean, push?"

Would depend on whether the trap was open.

Also pushing is REALLY hard .

Quote:
-"I tell Fluffy to attack that guy." "Make your Handle Animal roll." "Fluffy knows the Attack trick." "Yes, but you have one rank in Handle Animal and a -2 charisma score. With your +4 bonus for Fluffy being your AC you need a 4 or better on the die to Handle him."

Tell them to buy a training harness and make it a 2... Even a dwarf only has to put up with that for a level or two unless the critter gets hurt.

Quote:
I see this a lot. Players who just assume their animal companion does whatever they want, taking whatever path they would think is ideal. All the way up to level 5 or so. Because their earlier GMs didn't understand the rules either.

There's more than a little table variation and circumstance variation there. Usually the critter can see the opponents and hazards on the map as well as the player can and the flank trick is the only one that calls out that the animal doesn't walk around it.

If you want to get fancy you can tell your companion to seek in one location then give them another command as soon as they get there to makt them turn.

Quote:
So it definitely does slow the game down when you're explaining how Handle Animal works to a player. But it has to be done at some time. I like to declare a 5 minute break (even in the middle of combat) while I go over the rules with the player. Anyone else is welcome to stay and listen in.

Breaks in combat are a bad thing, and that may be a lot of spotlight to put on the player, especially if the other players are chomping at the bit to kill some stuff.

We do have union cards they can peruse in between sessions.

Quote:
And on the power side, Handle Animal and Tricks are a big limiter on the actual...

Not really With the right tricks the critter does what you want it to. The key to speeding up combat there is to get the player the right tricks so that it will Just do what the player wants without the dm objecting. This also takes the player and DM getting on the same page about how organic or mechanical they want the animals to be.

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

The only times i've seen animal companions slow the game down is when the dm insisted on recording every single square of the animals movement in excruitiating detail, stopping, making people start over, for no reason (Its usually a matter of a creature going 35-40 feet with a 50-60 foot move, no there were no traps).

-Eyeball it. If the critters move is bigger than the map just have them weave their way through it.

-Have an SOP for the animals 5 attacks , let the player roll all at once and let the player 5 foot or call off the full attack without calling mother may I in advance.

If the problem is "the animal companion is a better melee combatant than I am" thats because the system is broken. The game seems to assume a LOT more stand still and fight combats than i see, which involve people zipping over the mats and one or two shotting things. The move or damage dichotomy absolutely kills traditional melee past a certain point, so the options that get around that (archery, pounce, archery, mounted combat, archery, a hail of gunfire and of course archery) all put traditional melee combat to shame.

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 9

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Grognard wrote:
does NOT list Fenrir as a "god" but rather the scion on Loki (who is both jötunn and "god" being the son of Fárbauti and Laufey). By union with the jötunn Angrboða, Loki sires monsters the Nine Worlds fear. Loki is the father of Hel, the wolf Fenrir, and the world serpent Jörmungandr. Only Hel can take up the mantle of "god."

I'd be interested in knowing how you got a sample for that DNA test... Tyr? Is that you?

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

Where are you deko? Games can be a bit hard to find if you dont know whete to look

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 9

Entryhazard wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Buri Reborn wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Ehhhh, I'd wager most folks have banned the original summoner but most especially the master summoner.
For all my love of the APG summoner, I've seen better acceptance of the master summoner than the synthesist. Go figure.

The master summoner wrecks the table via summoning things which.. well. Summoner.

The synthesist wrecks the table via... being a better fighter than the fighter. Which doesn't sit well with the fighter.

There are a lot of beatsticks that are better than the fighter, holding it on the synthesist is unfair

The barbarian doing it is one thing a pre optimized conjuration specialist is quite another.

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 9

Buri Reborn wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Ehhhh, I'd wager most folks have banned the original summoner but most especially the master summoner.
For all my love of the APG summoner, I've seen better acceptance of the master summoner than the synthesist. Go figure.

The master summoner wrecks the table via summoning things which.. well. Summoner.

The synthesist wrecks the table via... being a better fighter than the fighter. Which doesn't sit well with the fighter.

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 9

1 person marked this as a favorite.
oyzar wrote:

I really detest all these changes.

It's literally stealing toys from kids. That leaves no one feeling good. I've yet to see a single person happy about any of these changes.

I am very happy with

-Master of many styles no longer handing out level 11 feats for a 1 level dip.

-Double barreled weapons being.. not quite as crazy. Still crazy though.

- The oracle not being able to pump their critter QUITE so far past the druid.

I am not happy with: the 1/4 to 1/6th adjustment on a lot of the racial bonuses. Out of everything in the game to fix why on earth did that come up...

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Gamerskum wrote:
When did people start thinking paladins had so much grey between the black and white of evil? Other classes maybe but paladins?

You start with the Holy warrior of rightousness, law, justice and the american way!

The inevitable conflict between those conflicting ideas produce a lot of story lines.

Add Sturgeons law.

Many of those stories are contrived, no win conflicts that don't show the paladins inner struggle to reconcile them, but instead brutal, nihilistic vindictive no win situations that have arbitrary if any solutions because the DM has decided that there are none or that ONLY their way will work.

So paladins have to be "less than perfect" They can break a law here and there, they can be badass. They can be different than what people expect....

which people in turn take a good idea too far. Since a paladin cannot fit the impossible standard of an impossible man, they conclude that the paladin can do ANYTHING and still be a paladin. Flirt with the forces of evil. Sell his soul for the greater good, wipe out the orphans because it needed to be done! Your standards of paladinhood are antiquated trap and a strait jacket!

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

3 people marked this as a favorite.

People would pack in animals for more out of subtier gold.

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Socalwarhammer wrote:


Why does Big Norse Wolf always seem to be right? A voice of reason amidst the chaos...

Broken Clock.

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

seeing how much confusion there is over both the encounter and the playing up/down rules definitely calls for some slack towards the dm, given as how people deliberating overnight can't all get on the same answer you can hardly expect more from someone about to run a scenario in a crowded hall.

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 9

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Drejk wrote:
Also, I wonder... Representative of Fenrir has a tail... Is that part of dress code for the function, or is the representative a member of a species different than apparent orc/goblinoid/half-orc?

I think he's just wearing one of my relatives as a cloak: which would make sense since fenrir is a wolf.

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

Malraine wrote:
FLite wrote:
Stephen Ross wrote:
Malraine wrote:
According to the paladin's code...
you might want to start a NEW thread with that topic... it is beyond the scope of the header of this thread.
Oh please don't. We have beaten that horse so hard into the ground it has dug it's own grave.
Could you provide a link to that discussion, please? Instead of starting a new thread, I'll head there and read that one. Thanks.

Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

For PFS where the paladin has NO control over their party members, ability to pick his party members, or ability to hold them back really, making the paladin responsible is beyond jerk dming and into language not allowed on the boards or legal in vegas.

Just assume that the society covers the occasional cost of living atonement and move on. A pfs paladin already has a hard enough time maintaining their own soul, much less their parties.

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 9

4 people marked this as a favorite.

and here I was hoping strip 1000 would be revealing the monster in the darkness as the paizo golem....

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

That fight also scales depending on how subtle you are I think.

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

1 person marked this as a favorite.
blackbloodtroll wrote:

He does like to mix and match Pregens.

I just want to be able to show him how, no matter what game he shows up to, he can run a Pregen, if he wants.

If he needs to put down a -2, or -3, instead of -1, then I want to be able to let him know.

It would be easier to do the math for them than to explain calculus.

Do you know how many of each level they have?

This is going to be like playing flux....

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

1 person marked this as a favorite.

last night:

Gibbering mouther. Page 154... go to page 154. Weird eyeball thing with a different name. Ok, must be one of those copywrited 3.5 monsters It attacks you for....wait, 154 hit points? OH! I'm holding bestiary 4....

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

Whatever happens, don't be too hard on the DM. Sometimes those 4 player adjustment things are pages after the start of the fight (and the rules for when you do or don't play with the 4 player adjustment are a little complicated)

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 9

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Aniuś the Talewise wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Also, Irony at Lokis kids more than undoing his political campaign.

Well Fenrir's chained up until the end of the world, so of course he wants the world to end! Naturally.

Wait, didn't you say this yourself?

Yes, but i just noticed that both Fenrir and Hel are lokis kids and they're both going to mess up this plan for him because together they're 2 votes against his 1.

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 9

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Also, Irony at Lokis kids more than undoing his political campaign.

Shadow Lodge *** Dedicated Voter Season 9

Chris Mortika wrote:
Sarvei taeno wrote:
... it only takes an evil though for someone to detect as evil. that does not mean they are nor does it mean that they can be smited it just meant that in that moment they had an evil aura/thought or intent. ....
Could you explain this, sarvei? That's not my understanding at all I have understood that detect evil pings on a character having an evil alignment. (Or, in the case of a cleric, following an Evil-aligned god.) How does a random nasty thought set off detect evil?

Creatures with actively evil intents count as evil creatures for the purpose of this spell.

Mind you, you'd still be an evil 5th level critter to show up on it..

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 9

Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:
Fox Shape is Su rather than Sp, doesn't that mean it is not actually a spell to conflict with Reduce Person? That said, where is the general rule about Polymorph effects stacking? Not doubting you, just curious :)

Magic chapter under transmutation polymorph . You need to live in thact section if you play druids..

Quote:
It would actually be a nice side benefit since it would make you immune to things like Baleful Polymorph.

Well, kitsune are neigh immune to it anyway (standard action to change back because they have the shapechanger subtype) but for those that are just beast shaped...

Any polymorph effects on the target are automatically dispelled when a target fails to resist the effects of baleful polymorph, and as long as baleful polymorph remains in effect, the target cannot use other polymorph spells or effects to assume a new form.

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 9

Tiger Lily wrote:
Reduce Person to be a mouse sized Diminutive foxie

As much as I love the idea of mighty mouse...

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 9

Woodoodoo wrote:
Can an unarmed fighter still get monkey shine with his lvl 1 bonus feat?

They never could.

At 1st level, a unarmed fighter gains the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and any single style feat as a bonus feat. The unarmed fighter need not meet all the prerequisites of the style feat he chooses, but style feats that grant additional uses of the Elemental Fist feat cannot be taken until the unarmed fighter has that feat.

This ability replaces the bonus feat at 1st level.

Only the first Feat in the style chain is a style feat. The others are (usually) combat feats. The unarmed fighter doesn't have the cool "or associated feats" that the master of many styles did.

This is a good thing. A feat you need to be 11th level to take available at first level was just nuts.

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 9

Its a cool feat but a hat of disguise does almost the same thing from a game perspective, unless you really want to put your disguise to some unusual tests...

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