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I'm working on a Serpent Kull/Kingmaker mashup for my primary SS group. We are just about to the point where the players will get to make the call whether to go for it or not, and if they decide to do the mashup I'll post ideas and updates here as it goes.
Several reasons why I like the idea. The AP seems build for it. Smuggler's Shiv becomes ripe for colonisation by the end of first first book. The second book invloves re-opening a trade route. The third book involves finding and claiming a lost city. So, giving the PCs a real steak in the storyline by actually giving them an ownership interest in the wilderness places they explore and conquer seems a natural. The books after that are about defending civilisation against an acient threat - Even more compelling by having the lands they're defending be their own.
Right now, I'm working on converting the isle of Smuddler Shiv into Kingmaker terms. It'd be a one hex kingdom, but with several resources, caves, two ruined temples (or one complete temple, if they keep the Zura temple intact, which they may since they're a evil party). While there's no place to expand out from the Shiv, it can be developed into a major port city. I anticipate the deed to the mine in book two being the basis for an initial hex for a second kingdom, which they can buld off of along the trade route. Then winning credit for discovering Saveth-Yi would be the basis for a third kingdom holding.
All this assumes familiarity with the Of Cities and Kings rules from the second book of the Kingmaker AP. I downloaded Book 2 in the separate file by chapter format, which lets you get the rules apart from the rest of the book. I'm providing these to the players, rather than doing they 'let them figure it out as they go' method.
I'm staying with the 50BP to start format. This will come in the form of manpower and resources brought by pilgrims and settlers coming to the island. The kinds of settlers that arrive will depend on the PCs actions and choices during the adventure.
My group is an evil party, so I'm giving them the option to keep the temple to Zura intact and coming to terms with the Demon Lord to re-activate the temple in her name. With this option, they get the temple as a bonus building and the bulk of the settlers are Bekyar pilgrims flocking to this unholy site.
If they take the more conventional approach of breaking the altar of Zura to free the island of the curse, then they get the Temple as a Ruined Temple if they decide to rededicate it to another god, or a Ruined Monument if they decide to make it more tourist friendly, otherwise it is a Landmark. The character of the settling population will depend more on which faction they eventually ally with in Book 2.
Regardless which approach they take, Smuggler's Shiv is all one hex, which starts with the following additional Special Resources:
1 Landmark/Ruined Temple/Ruined monument. This is the temple to Ydersius, which is in addition to the temple of Zura (which may start as a ruin or building depending what the PCs did). If they want to rededicate the temple to another god, then it counts as a ruined temple, or if they open it up to tourists it's a ruined monument for cost. If they leave it as is, then it's a Landmark.
1 Ruined Watch Tower. This is the lighthouse.
1 Landmark/Ruined monument. This is the tide stones, which acts as a landmark but can be upgraded into a monument like the temples.
20 Ruined Monuments. These are the shipwrecks, the three survivor camps, and the hut of Captain Beliker. Any of these can be refurbished into Monuments to the history of the Shiv. But note a rule I'm adding is only one building of a given type per district, so this is not as much a freebie as it looks.
1 Cave. These are the caves adjoining the temple to Ydersius.
3 Resources. These are the pearl beds, the Viper Nettle patch, and the Fangbird nests (the Dimophodons being easily trained, they can be cultivated and marketed as guard beasts and exotic pets).
Initial Rules changes/additions/modifications:
Buildings per City District & Block Placement: To forestall some of the problems some have had with multiple buildings of the same type, only one building of a given type can be built per district - The two exceptions to this are Houses and Tenements (this is in addition to certain buildings only allowing one per city). They can still built as many districts as they like to get more buildings of a given type on the Shiv, and they don't have to clear all 9 blocks to designate a district, a district could even be only one block big, but they still have to pay the additional consumption and spend the full cost in time and BP. Since the AP provides such a great map of the Shiv, rather than use the KM abstract city grid, I'm giving my players the option to cut out the district squares (up to 9 per district) and tape them on the Island Map to show where their buildings actually are on the Shiv. The large scale map of the Shiv that comes with the AP map folio is perfect for this. Different parts of the Shiv have different costs to prepare city districts. The Red Mountain region east of the tidestones count as Mountains. The Tidestones and all other parts of the island connected by the trails count as Forest. The other trackless parts of the island count as Swamp. A city district has to be prepared all in one region (no splitting a district into half in the mountains half not).
Population, Alignment, and Loyalty:
To add a bit more depth to the nation's culture and politics, and to give Loyalty checks more relevance, I'm adding a rule that if the Alignment the PCs choose for government is more than 1 step away from the predominant alignment of the population, then they have to make a Loyalty check during the Upkeep Phase to avoid gaining 1 unrest per opposed alignment. So, if the population are CE Bekyar Zura worshippers, and the PCs try to impose LG rule, they have to check loyalty or gain 2 unrest. If they set the alignment opposed to their faction they also have to make the check (imagine like in our country how when one party is in power, the population that belongs to the other party can become unhappy and resistant). However, if they can keep unrest at 0 for long enough then the population will slowly shift in the direction of the new alignment.
The Factions:
Each of the factions would have an interest in supporting the PCs title to the Shiv, in exchange for their aid in the AP of course, but also to give themselves a base in the Sargavan sphere of influence. Each would also be able to bring to the table things the PCs would want. Primarily, each of them would be able to legitimize the PC's rule of the Shiv and promote settlement. In this respect they would serve the role the Sword Lords of Restov serve in the KM AP. But they each would also be able to assist with politicians and advisors which can fill the government roles, freeing the PCs to leave the island to continue the rest of the AP. Each faction could provide a Steward to serve the Ruler role with a +4 bonus, plus at least one other advisor to fill role(s) in keeping with their areas of expertise. However, they also expect the government of the Shiv be aligned in a way they agree with. Here's the factions:
Sargava: Sargava, naturally, claims ownership of the Shiv, and could most easily legitimize the PCs rule as vassal to the Sargavan Government, establishing them as their own Noble House. The Sargavans would want to use the shiv to better manage smuggling and enforce their rule of law. They'd require the Barony of the Shiv be any non-Chaotic alignment, preferably LN. They would promote settlement by colonials and natives of pretty much the same demographics as nearby Eleder. They could provide a General with a +4 bonus.
The Free Captains: The Hurricane King could demand the Shiv from Sargava as an element of their tribute owed. Contrary to the Sargavans, the Free Captains would see great potential for profit by using the Shiv to support the smuggling trade, as well as a base for their ships. They'd require the Barony of the Shiv to be any non-Lawful alignment, preferably CN. They would promote settlement by the same sorts that populate Port Peril, and possibly even grant the PCs themselves status as Free Captains (or possibly Aerys Mavato). They could provide a Spymaster with a +4 bonus.
The Red Mantis: With all of the intrigue in Sargava, there's good business for the assassins there, and having a base closer to Eleder would have obvious benefits. They could arrange for title to be bought and granted to the PCs, nominally as Sargavan Nobles, but with the desired independence of rule in practice. They would demand the government be any Lawful, preferably Lawful Evil, however the settlement population would more like Ilizmagorti, a mix of alignments that boils down to non-good neutral. They could provide a Royal Assassin with a +2 bonus but that can reduce unrest by 2 rather than 1.
The Aspis Consortium: Like the Mantis, the Aspis would see a great benefit to having a port like Bloodcove so close to Eleder, as it would give them all of the benefits of proximity with the protection of distance if Sargava finally succumbs to internal strife. Through their techniques of barristers bribes and barter, they could arrange for the PCs to have legitimate title as nominal Sargavan nobles similar to the deal the Mantis could offer. They would want the government to be any non-good, with a preference for Lawful Evil. Their promotion would encourage settlement with the same demographics as Bloodcove. They could provide a Treasurer with a +4 bonus.
The Pathfinders: They would also see the benefit of the Shiv's unique combination of proximity and distance from Sargava, and would love to have a "New Absalom" in the south to operate from (nevermind how much they want to study the island's ruins without interference). Pathfinder backing would also be preferable to the Sargavan government, as it would give them a local avowedly neutral intermediary to facilitate transacting business with far nations they've had trouble dealing with since their break from Cheliax, which would make them amenable to grating the island to the PCs as an independent freehold under Sargavan protection. The Pathfinders would expect the government of the Shiv to be aligned Neutral on at least one axis, with a slight preference for good over evil and law over chaos if true neutral is not acceptable. Their influence would attract a cosmopolitan population from all over the Inner Sea region. They could also provide a Counselor with a +4 bonus.
Allied NPCs:
A great benefit of the Serpent Skull AP is the wealth of associated NPCs that potentially could be tapped for roles in the Shiv's government. Any of the castaways that survive the first book could become politicians in the Barony of the Shiv. Additionally even characters like Pezzok and Ekubus could 'come to their senses' once the curse of the Shiv is lifted and rise to fill government roles. Aycenia would also be a natural for a position, provided the PCs don't have an evil government. This all should mean there would be enough bodies available to fill enough posts to allow the PCs to pursue the rest of the AP without having to return to mind the store. Any glaring gaps may also be filled by additional support from the factions (perhaps a +1 or +2 politician, or at least an aristocrat with no skill, but who prevents the penalty for vacancy).
Giving Orders:
Since the PCs will be away for most of the AP, orders will have to be given by messenger, but since the AP assumes that what is basically a travelling town is following them around providing their link to civilization, it could be assumed that the PCs can get dispatches of status reports and relay orders to manage their holdings even while trekking in the jungles. Since the AP also has time pass in terms of months, the development of the Shiv (and other holdings they pick up along the way) should be able to progress parallel to the PCs explorations.
XP
I plan to keep the KM XP awards, and balance it by cutting down on some of the random and less essential encounters that would otherwise be needed to keep their advancement going a pace.
That's what I've got for now. I figure this should get implemented as the PCs finish up the first book, which would be early next month. What do you think?
ooh! I quite like the idea. Maybe at the conclusion of my Kingmaker campaign the children of my group's characters could settle the Shiv.
The 'travelling town' is probably relatively easy to implement, considering the rulers' important position. The combination of their own servants and staff with hangers-on, traders, and opportunistic types could amount to a small community of their own.
Yea, the "Main Expeditions" in Book 2 and later which the factions organize to find and claim the lost city of Saveth-Yhi are left abstract - some dozens or hundreds of porters, drovers, pack animals and handlers, with guards, supply officers, and whatever else, all lead by a 9th level NPC. Basically they're each a great big mobile town that follows after the PCs, which they can use in Book 3 to buy and sell gear and use to keep in contact with civilisation.
In Book 3 they give rules for if the PCs want to make purchases that require sending a runner back to a city, which can work just as well to describe how the PCs receive reports and issue orders to their Stewart managing their holdings. Just have to port that concept to Book 2, and you're good to go.
I like the idea, but instead of Smuggler's Shiv how about using Savith-Yhi. Once the party either allies or conquer a district, have them start rebuilding it for colonization.
This would give them a stake in the city, as well as, providing better area for them to sell loot and buy items.
I'm planning both actually, plus land in the middle (playing off re-opening the trade rout between Eleder and Kalabuto).
They start with Smuggler's Shiv after the events of book 1, but can build on that in books 2 and three. The AP already has great mechanics and hooks that can be appied to this:
In Book 2, the first encoutner of part 2 is the Fzumi Salt Mines, which has as part of the end loot the deed to the mine. For the mashup, this would be the mechanism that would allow the PCs to gain posession of their first Hex on the Sargava Mainland. They would either cheat Athyra out of her inheritance, or ally with her, in either case effectivly giving them control of the mine and the land surrounding it. The mine would be one hex with a resource, which they can then claim for the usual 1BP. This expense would be the cost of putting the mine back in operation and establishing it as a stopover for the trade caravans.
In the Kingmaker rules, added hexes need to be adjacent to currenlty owned hexes, but that AP's context is a wilderness. Here, the context is an oligarchy government in trouble, Sargava. In KM terms, Sargava has a high Unrest score and has been forced to give up hexes in the interior of it's country. Here, the PCs are a separate power that can resettle those abandoned hexes, but rather than being effectivly independent rulers as in KM, they are a noble house within the framework of the larger Sargavan political structure. This would let them use Sargavan hexes to bridge the gap between the Shiv and the mine. The deed is the legal element that gives their claim to the mine legitimacy, and that hook can be expanded to also allow them to claim other abandoned hexes radiating from that holding. This would allow them to develope the trade route they are 'trailblazing' for the expedition, per the same mechanic as in KM's clear & claim rules.
In Book 3, the goal is to satisfy certain victory conditions that allows them to claim the discovery of Saveth-Yhi for their faction. For the mashup, this fits perfectly as the requirement to allow them to win Saveth-Yhi for themselves, same as the mine, as a further expansion of their holdings. They get credit for discovering Savet-Yhi, they also get the right to rule and develop it .. in parternship with their faction, of course. They still need the faction, and the Sargavan Nation, to provide the link to civilisation and their other holdings.
As you say, then they'll have a compelling motivation to confront the Serpents, since those guys are now threatening *their* land.
This whole idea is awesome. This is definitely going into the pot for my Serpent's Skull campaign, and I'll be very intrigued to see how yours develops.
In book 2 & 3, in addition to rival factions attacking the PCs' and the expedition camp in book 3, they could also attack the PCs' holdings in the form of Kingmaker events.
The Assassination Attempt event is a natural for the Red Mantis. The Free Captains likewise would natually inflict Bandit Activity. Feud would fit for Sargava as that's the most 'internal politics' kind of approach. While Public Scandal would fit Aspis Consortium's dirty politics kind of flavor. For a fun turn the tables twist, the Pathfinders could do Sensation Crime in the form of their adventurers treating the PCs' own strongholds as dungeons to crawl.
The allied faction could also be 'responsible' for benefitial events. This could be the flavor for the randomly rolled events, allowing otherwise nonsequiter randomness to be given context in the story without having to mess with the mechanics at all.
GMs that like to do handouts could have a lot of fun detailing the events in a handout the PCs get as a dispatch.
I'm think of it as the PCs being partners/vassal of the faction, under Sargavan law. The Sargava info and sourcebook detail how Sargavan law is convoluted and protects while putting very few limits on colonizing institutions. Part of the nations problem is they can't tax the most profitable companies exploiting the land and people, as their own laws don't allow it. So for the PCs it's the best of both worlds. A PC owned Saveth Yhi could have both political autonomy and the legitimacy and protection of Sargavan law. However Sargava would profit in any event if only from the economic boost of all that new traffic that has to pass through their ports and markets, which are the only connection for this new city to the rest of the world.
The Supply section of the Expedition rules establishes the capacity to move people and goods to and from Saventh-Yhi.
That route goes up and down the river to Kalabuto and ultimatly past Port Freedom to Eleder (the nearest deepwater port), or alternativly the overland route between Kapabuto and Eleder the PCs themselves clear in Book 2.
For the Mashup, presumption is the PCs will expand their territory by claiming hexes and developing the overland route they're tasked in Book 2 with trailblazing, starting with the deed to the Fazumi Mine, and building east to Kalabuto. They could likewise develope the route up the Korir to Tazion and then to Saventh-Yhi
So by the time they're ready to claim Saveth-Yhi, they'll already have an overland trade route to Eleder's deepwater port in place, which they'd have built themselves, or they would be able to just use the river to Kalabuto and Port Freedom to access Eleder's markets, through their Faction's logistical resources.
To get to the Vanji, they'd have to cut a whole new overland route on the other side of the Bandu Hills. The Aspis might like that idea, since they own Bloodcove and could cut out Sargava as you say, and may save a few miles when completed, but the bird in the hand for the PCs is the route they already have by that time, which would connect to their own holdings all the way back to their now Island Stronghold of Smuggler's Shiv, and which has the benefit of the protection of Sargavan law (which would be more favorable to them than their link to the world totally under the control of the Aspis Consortium).
That's all great meat for intrigue though! Maybe the Aspis and Shackels would team up to try to influence the PCs to go their way, and maybe even the Red Mantis too!
Rather than describe the buildings as completed in a month, which streches suspension of disbelief for some kinds of buildings, I'm rather describing buidlings as merely far enough a long to grant the benefit - The building is paid for, construction is well under way, and the structure may already be in use, but it won't actually be a completed project until some reasonable time in the furture. However, the anticipation of the structure's completion, as well as the construction itself, and the extent to which it can be currently used, is sufficitent to grant the stat bonuses.
Imagine the cathedrals of the middle ages, which took generations to build. Nevertheless the project itself boosed the local economy, local pride, etc. In such a way, the fact the Notre Dame was being built could be imagined as being as much a benefit to Paris as the completed structure eventually was.
Conceived in this way, you can still have the mechanical benefits of being able to have the PC build big things every month and get the benefits right away, without busting suspension of disbelief with giant structures going up overnight.
My group finally tied up book one, so the mashup can officially begin.
They are an evil party, so rather than destroy the alter of Zura, they resolved it by making a pact with Zura instead.
In line with that, the 50 BP starting resources will come from Bekyar Zura worshippers of the Bandu tribes, flocking in pilgrimage with slaves and offerings to resettle the Shiv and worship at the temple, as well as the seafaring Bonuwat of the nefarious Ombo tribe, who are associates of the Bekar in the slave trade and transport the pilgrams and their goods to the Shiv. There will also be a few Chelish among the prigrams, degenerate colonials from the Sargavan upper classes, who will bring the benefits of colonial culture, allowing the convetional style of government which the kingmaker rules are designed for, rather than having to modify it to a tribal kind of thing despite the majority population being tribal. They'll also still have to ally with a faction to gain political recognition necessary to not be isolated, which will take the place of Kingmaker's "Swordlords of Restov" and give them some more benefits that will help them along (primarily advisors which can fill government roles, freeing the PCs to go adventure on the mainland). Fortunatly, most of the factions are either evil, or OK with evil, and this whole AP seems very accomodating to an evil party. It will be interesing to see who they go with.
Finding that the PCs will need more time up front to get their kingom running before setting out, so it will have time to develop in the timeframe of the rest of the AP. To do that I'm flipping the order of the Tempest and the Freeman's Brotherhood encoutners.
After picking their factions, I'll justify giving them a few months downtime by the expeditions needing to set out at the end of the rainy season, so they can be assured of having time to find Saventh-Yhi and have their basecamp up and running and supply lines in place before the next rainy season shuts everything down. During this downtime they can work on their fiefdom and do the Tempest encoutner.
Then the freemen attack happens at the end of the rainy season right before they're scheduled to leave. Regardless of the outcome, the fires and riots end up doing enough damage to all the factions' wearhouses that they all can't leave as scheduled, and the all the factions' expeditions have to be put off for another year. However, if the PCs succeeded in minimising the damage to the wearhouse they tried to save, enough of those supplies survived to allow them to make a pre-emptive stab at the Fazumi Salt Mines. They can't press on to Tazion, but if they can clear the mine and establish it as a forward basecamp, they'll still get a jump on the competition.
This will give them a chance to claim their first Hex on the Sargavan mainland and give them a year of KM turns to expand the size of thier feifdom (so they can do more actions during a turn) before starting the Race to Ruin in earnest, which will let them do more during their KM turns while doing RtR. Also, to spice up the year, there can be inter-faction-action in the form of events on the KM side (Sabotage, assassination attempts, legal wrangling, and all that sort of thing).
If needed, the rainy season can also later impose a pause in the SS action to give them more KM turns.
Getting very excited about using KM mass combat rules in City of Seven Spears, and throughout the last half of the AP. Being able to actually go to war to conquer the factions and play out the battle of Ilmuria should be a lot of fun.
Some mods to the mass combat rules I'm considering include:
Making army size matter - Using the same rules for sharing a space in the core combat rules, Fine to Tiny armies can reside inside small and larger armies, and all armies can reside in others 2 sizes larger than themselves. The benefit for nested armies is the defender can choose which army the attacker attacks rather than the attacker. So, you can nest boss monsters and high level NPCs inside a larger army to let them be effective without having to worry about them getting eliminated the first round, since they can get their attack while the larger army convers them. I'm also considering allowing the option for "duels", where the mass combat is paused and a fight between heros and bosses is handled as a normal encoutner as the battle rages around them. That would provide more the kind flavor you get in the LOTR battles.
Training and equipping for low level NPC class armies - I'm going to implement the change I proposed here, where I'm adding two resourses, Basic Training & Basic Equipment, which let 1st level NPC class creatures reach the threshold of 1CR the mass combat rules work best with.
Fleshing out Sargava - I think I'm going to build Saragava as a kingmaker kingom, showing what hexes they control so I can see what hexes are free for the PCs to develop, as well as allow the option for a Sarvagan civil war to happen in the background, and for Mazali to attack Kalabuto again, as a threat to the PCs supply lines. It'll also be cool to have the hobgoblins and gnolls and the Iron Cross and other factions from the Sargava and Heart of the Jungle source books come into play.
This would allow for a three dimensional story - The PCs adventuring as a party in the city, managing their kingdom, and also having to cope with a several front war happening inside and outside Sarvaga... before they even get to the war in the last book of SS in Ilmuria.
I wanted to craft a skill challenge encounter where the rival faction leader publically denounces the PCs in an attempt to make it politically impossible for the Sargavans to ally with them, with the PCs answering the charges in a debate.
I made up the following mechanic that treats an argument like a combat. It worked out pretty well, and with some tweaking I think it'll also work well in Book 3 to make attempts to win over the Saventh-Yhi factions with diplomacy more interesting as encounters.
I call it “War of Words”. Here it is:
The form is essentially the same as combat mechanics, with a roll to-hit opposed by a defense, and damage that subtracts from hit points. Initiative and turn order are the same, attacks are a standard action. Rather than roll to score a hit, an arguer rolls to Score a Point (as in "make a good point"). Rather than AC, the listener has a resistance (as in "resistance to the idea"). Hit Points are the arguers' credibility. So the more good points you can land, the more you tear down your opponent's credibility, whoever's side loses credibility first loses the argument.
Here's the crunch:
The to-hit bonus is based on the arguer's Diplomacy Skill and their Knowledge skill in the point they're trying to make. They can try to make a point using any Knowledge skill they wish, but they score more damage using Knowledge that's relevant to the subject of the argument (see below). The argument bonus is the average of their diplomacy skill and knowledge skill,
So a roll to hit is (diplomacy + knowledge)/2 + 1d20
The defense is the attitude of the listener you're trying to convince (from the Diplomacy skill attitude chart) plus the CR+Cha bonus of person you're arguing against (this represents the opponent's presence). Where the opposition is the person you're trying to convince, you use their attitude. If two groups are trying to sway a third party to their side against the other, use the attitude of the 3rd party to each group (so one side my have an easier time if they're more well liked)
So the resistance the hit roll has to beat is Attitude +(CR+Cha)
On a hit, you damage the other argument's credibility. Damage is based on how relevant the point being made is to the subject of the argument, as defined by which knowledge skill applies (e.g. if the argument is a courtroom drama about whether something is legal, knowledge(local) applies). The DM decides what areas of knowledge are Directly on Point, Relevant, or Beside the Point. The more on point the knowledge skill used is, the more damage it does, modified by Charisma (same way a sowrd does more damage than a dagger and is modified by strength):
Directly on point 1d10+Cha
Relevant 1d8+Cha
Beside the Point 1d4+Cha
Consider this damage as an AOE - damaging the credibility of everyone on the other side of the argument.
Credibility Hit Points are the Arguer's base hit points, but modified by their charisma bonus rather than their Con. So just remove the HPs gained from con and add HPs based on Cha.
I also added a couple ways to heal credibility: rebutting a point and supporting a point. Rebutting a point is responding directly to the attack the last attack made. It's done as a normal attack except the arguer has to use the same knowledge skill as the last attack, has to beat that roll rather than the listener's resistance, and if successful they heal their own HPs rather than damage their opponent. Supporting a point is done as an assist action. The arguer must beat a DC10 and if successful heals their side 1d3HPs - This represent stuff like "yea, what he said!" "that's Bull!" "talk to the hand!" and lets the tanks of the group (who'll have awful knowledge and diplomacy checks) take on the role of healer. In addition to supporting points, tanks could also use intimidate to demoralize the opponent, for the usual -2 penalty of the shaken condition.
XP is calculated the same as a normal encounter, based on the CR of the opposition.
Spells and effects work as makes sense - Charm person makes the target's attitude Helpful, Fascinate acts like a hold person, etc.
Asphesteros: I'm really liking your Kingmaker + Serpent's Skull mashup idea. I've also listed your Diplomacy system for later use — nicely done!
Considering that I've modded the SS plotline with a lot of homebrew elements, this seems like a perfect way to flesh out a lot of what I had in mind.
Of course, after she goes MIA due to the shipwreck, Sargava slips further into chaos to the point where it is verging on anarchy when they arrive. Hence, starting that segment with only a handful of hexes in and around Eleder, much of the territory having been lost to feuding and civil unrest.
While I'm still reading thru the rules, I noticed that you had already posted some useful kingdom data for Smuggler's Shiv such as hex size, resources, etc. That got me motivated to think about the country as a whole, so I decided to try and calculate how many hexes Sargava itself is.
It looks like the whole of Sargava is 100 hexes even.
221 × 170 = 37570 square miles
37570 / 375 = 100.187 hexes
At any rate, the first thing I'll need to do is finish reading up on everything and then determine all the stats for Eleder and it's upkeep, etc.
BTW, while I subscribed to Kingmaker, I had never actually read any of the kingdom building rules until this mashup thread peaked my interest. Fortuitously, at that same time, that 3PP kingdom building book was advertized on the blog. Let's just say that guy can thank you for another sale. ;)
Awesome! I plan to flesh out Sargava as well. My take on it is simmiar, most of the country they claim politically is actually unclaimed hexes. They PCs claiming them for their fiefdom, a Sargavan vassal barony, is them bringing law to the wasteland. I need to figure out how to lay a hexmap over the map of Sargava in photoshop. I likewise plan to build the sarvagan cities in KM format, and I hope all the math can be made to work out.
Sometime around the events in City of Seven Spears, I plan to have a full scale war break out. There's tons of factions that could have an army in play. On top of those factions involved in the expeditions and various native tribes there's also Mzali, the Hobgoblins and Gnolls in the Bandu Hills, Sahuagin in the wreck of the Chelaxian Armada, Senghor, I'm even going to have the Andorans involved as part of their war on slavery. All of the cities could be independent entites when war comes, since many have very different agendas. So, I see it breaking down as many differnt armies that may ally into coalitions, or be out for themselves, all in a mosh pit for control of Sargava. If you ever played the game Divine Right, it could play out like that, parallele to action in the Saventh-Yhi.
Oh, for the hex grid over the map what I did was this...
I exported the map from the Inner Sea World Guide. I measured Sargava itself to determine how many pixels wide it was, then the scale to see how many pixels wide it was. It ended up working out to 337 miles.
Now for some inexplicable reason, the KM rules never explicitly say how wide a hex is, they only state the length of a side and it's area (which they round up by nearly 1-sq-mi I might add). Anyway, doing a big of trigonometry, it turns out a single hex is 20.78 miles across which I rounded up to 21 miles. You could just as easily round down to 20 miles. If you do that, then setting up the hex grid is a piece of cake, just size it so that your grid has 5 hexes to fit the width of the 100-mile legend. Otherwise, fit your grid size to match that, then increase the size of the hexes by 105% and you'll have 21-mile-wide hexes.
As far as creating the grid, the easiest thing is to use MapTool. If you don't want to import the map into MapTool itself, then simply make a blank map with a black background and a white hex grid. Take a screenshot of it and paste it into Photoshop. Switch to the magic wand, turn off the Contiguous selection option, then select and delete the black. You can then do another selection on the blank space, invert your selection, and contract it a bit, and then apply a Stroke to the selection.
I just did it in MapTool though because I didn't feel like hassling with it. ;)
So right now I'm trying to figure out how many city districts each city should have and how many farms, wineries, and other resources are in the country. I'm thinking it might be easiest to break it down by the regions surround the major cities and treat each of those as a barony, but you've got far more experience with this than I do (i.e. any advice or legwork you've already done would be appreciated).
Uh oh... The map in of the stolen lands in Rivers Run Red, and I beleive Stolen Land also has it as 1 hex = 12 miles. Guide to the river kingdoms says a side is 12 miles, but I think that might be an error, I think it's 12 miles across (which also jibes with the travel times I believe)
Great idea just using Maptool!
I've been planning on using population to determine districts and buildings. By KM, it's 250 people per block, so 9k for a full district. So, Eleder at a pop of around 8k, I was going to call it 1 district, mostly filled and call it a day. However, I'm employing my houserule of only one bulding of a given type per district (exclusive of houses), so if it turns out Eleder needs to have two of something, they might have to have 2 unfilled districts (probably for the city wall).
Then, once I make a desisoin about their cabinet positions and so have numbers for their average income, I'd make a guess about how much the pirates are soaking them for, and then fill out farmlands to just exactly cover their consumption - representing how strapped for cash they are by the pirate's tribute, that they're only just getting by.
I very much like the idea of breaking down each settlement as their own Barony, especially Kalabuto as effectivly a different nation from Eleder, and Port freedom another, that way they don't have to be connected, and explains all the wilderness the PCs encoutner in the heartlands of the country, and how politically separated they seem to be in the descriptions of them.
Hmm, on page 3 of that book I linked to, it lists the sides of the hexagons as 12-miles long. That makes for one hex equaling ~375 square miles. However, you're right pg. 57 of Stolen Lands lists a hex as being 12-miles from corner-to-corner! >.<
Each hex on the map of the Stolen Lands is 12 miles across (between opposite corners) and covers just under 150 square miles of area.
Each hexagon of land has sides 12 miles long. That translates into an area approximately 375 square miles.
The thing is though, a hex that's 12-miles from corner-to-corner does NOT have an area of 150-square miles. Whereas one that is 12-miles to a side does indeed have an area of approximately 375 square miles.
The longest diagonals of a regular hexagon, connecting diametrically opposite vertices, are twice the length of one side.
Compare the area a hex with 6-mile sides to one with 12-mile sides:
Hexagon Area CalculatorThe area of of a hex with a vertex diameter of 12-miles isn't even 95 square miles let alone "just under 150".
As far as travel-times go, it looks like they were supposed to be 12-miles in diameter in BOTH books as they list the time to cross a hex as the same: 8-hours at 30-ft which is exactly 1/2 of 24-miles — the appropriate rate for halving your daily overland movement rate for trackless terrain.
Sooo... I'm curious to know if there was an errata done on Stolen Lands, or if Jon Brazer noticed the error and corrected it on his own, or what. Guess I'll have to bring this up in the product thread...
EDIT: Raised the size issue here.
Sooo... if we use a hex that's 12-miles in diameter, that means each one has an area of 93.53 miles not 150 miles. That means 37,570 square-mile Sargava is just over 400 hexes in size. Give me a minute to recalculate how big a hex is from side-to-side so we can size things properly in MapTool...
d = diameter of hexagon
r = radius of hexagon (i.e. hypotenuse)
x = from vertex of hexagon to center of side (i.e. base of rt. triangle)
y = center of hex to center of side (i.e. height of rt triangle)
Solving for y
r = d/2 = 12/2 = 6
x = r/2 = 6/2 = 3
x² + y² = r²
3² + y² = 6²
9 + y² = 36
y² = 36 - 9 = 27
y = sqrt 27 = ~5.2
The width of our hexes from side-to-side (i.e. so we can size things up in MapTool) should be 10.4 miles. So fit 10-hexes side-by-side onto the scale legend, then just increase the size of your hexes by 104%. Or hell... just leave it at 10 and make things easy on yourself. ;)
Alternately, knowing that Sargava is about 337 miles from East-to-West, just count out 32-34 hexes for your width.
FFFFFFFFFFFFFffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuudge...
OK, so James Jacobs clarified that their calculations were designed using 12-miles as being from the center of one hex to the center of the next. That makes a LOT more sense if you are using snap-to-grid in MapTool.
Sooo... ~337 miles/12 = Sargava should be ~28 hexes across in MapTool.
h = radius of hexagon (hypotenuse)
x = vertex of hexagon to center of side (width)
y = center of hexagon to center of side (height)
y = 6
h = 2x
solving for x
h² = x² + y²
(2x)² = x² + 6²
4x² = x² + 36
3x² = 36
x² = 12
x = sqrt 12 = ~6.9
Now to plug that into the handy Hexagon Area Calculator...
This means the area of the Kingmaker hexes as intended should be ~125 square miles, not ~150 miles. Anyway, this is more thinking than I would have cared to do on 2 hours sleep after being at work all day. What were we doing again?
I've been planning on using population to determine districts and buildings. By KM, it's 250 people per block, so 9k for a full district. So, Eleder at a pop of around 8k, I was going to call it 1 district, mostly filled and call it a day. However, I'm employing my houserule of only one bulding of a given type per district (exclusive of houses), so if it turns out Eleder needs to have two of something, they might have to have 2 unfilled districts (probably for the city wall).OK it looks like both books are in agreement on the number of people per block and the number of blocks in a district, that's good. For the sake of parity with KM and what you're doing, I'm just going to use the James Jacobs Intended™ hex size from Kingmaker:
- 12-miles from hex center to hex center (i.e. side-to-side width)
- ~7-mile sides/~14-mile vertex diameter
- ~125 square miles
That makes Sargava 300 hexes.
Now in terms of the cities, here's the populations I found for each:
- 812 Crown's End
- 8900 Eleder
- 198 Fort Bandu
- 1330 Freehold
- 11340 Kalabuto
- 2950 Port Freedom
- 490 Stark Point
I was thinking that each 'city' would cost at minimum 1 district regardless of size (i.e. always rounding up to the next full hex). Does that sound right to you, or would it be better sum the populations of Port Freedom with the smaller ones and then count them as a single district for cost purposes?
Thanks for all that number crunching! I like 300 hexes better, since that's more room for the PCs to grow in Sargava without totally taking the place over.
I agree a city is a min of one district, so even little tiny Ft. Bandu would be one district comprised entirely of one block (probably a barraks). I converted Eleder last night for tonights game, it's surprising how small cities actually become for the numbers to work out. I decided to redefine the city qualities that effect base value into the configuration of buildings, so the buildings add up to the modified number, even with that, one "waterfront" (+4k base value) accounts for practically all of the city's base value, after adding the Sargava Club as a tavern & inn, Eleder would not have a marketplace or other buildings that boost BV without having a far higher base value that even the number modified by 'prosperous' and 'strategic location'.
It worked out well though. They're right at the part where the Freemen firebomb the warehouses, so I plan to apply that event as a 'disaster', counting the PCs actions toward effecting the result, then destroy blocks and have that result reflect in the city's new Base Value. It should really bring home the PC's importance to have their actions directly impact what they can or cannot buy. They've already paid for the Mantis to assassinate Braga in a bid to help Madrona Dagustana shut down the Sargava Club, so they will already see the BV of the city drop as those centers of Adventuring activity (and loot trade) leave Sargava for elsewhere...
I'll see if I can link a PDF of the finished sheet somewhere.
Cool, I look forward to seeing it. I took a stab at trying to model the city last week, but using a single district and trying to fit in the waterfront, Temple Street, the palace etc. was taking up way too much room. Nevermind that it didn't even resemble the map much at that point. I ended up experimenting with multiple districts using a 3x3 district grid, but I haven't completed it yet — too much else going on right now.
I made the harbor (lower harbor and all) all one waterfront, temple street all one temple, the palace a castle, the archives an academy.
I went with the notion that the city grid is an utter abstraction, so just put the waterfront in the upper left corner, the castle in the middle, the Praetor's block and sargava club buildings all in the top and upper right, the Adventurer's club, shipyard and upscale buildings in the bottom and lower left. I decided that all of outerwall is technically not even part of the city (rather than try to fit in tenements),and instead count it as 'resources' with the pinapple fields - which makes sense in it being the ungoverned slums outside the walls which the city just uses for cheap labor.
Hmm, I see what you mean about using the grid as an abstraction. The only problem I had doing that myself was the requirements of having houses adjacent to certain structures. Otherwise, if it was simply a 'bucket' that would have been a lot easier, although I suppose there are ways of doing that regardless...
You wouldn't happen to have your take on it downloadable yet, would you? :)
Just finished Kalabuto, and put both up on my twitter. I split Kalabuto into two districts, Ft. Kalabuto District, and Kalabuto Old Town district. This projects has been awesome for how sometimes totally unrelated rule sets can enhance or explain narratives written independent of them. Like, with Kalabuto, there's some seemingly contradictory stuff going on with the story of the city. On the one hand, the Sargava guide tells us how Ft. Kalabuto is the strongest defensive stronghold in all of Sargava, nevertheless it's gotten sacked multiple times by Mzali. This begs questions, like if Mzali is that strong why do they leave Kalabuto when they take it? Also, if the Zenj are so downtrodden by the colonists, why do they let them back in power after they regain the city? or why don't they just join the Mzali? BUT building the city, and interesting thing happened. It turned out that a build that made sense was for the Castle and other DV boosting building to be in one district, while many of the Base Value boosting buildings were in the other district. What was going on with the sackings of Kalabuto started to make sense - The Mzali would invade and sack Kalabuto Old Town, but *not* take the whole city. The colonials and their Kalabuta supporters would fall back and hold up in Ft. Kalabuto district. The Mzali, unable to breach the formidable defenses of Ft. Kalabuto, and not having the resources to outlast them in a siege, would be forced to satisfy themselves pillaging the Old Town market district and port warehouses, and going home. Despite the Mzali outside the walls, Colonials still own the keys to Ft. Kalabuto, and many of the more wealthy Kalabuta live there (even if they have to put up with being lesser status to the colonials, they're nevertheless upper class over their fellow Mwangi), also many Mwangi of old town would rather flee to Ft Kalabuto with their savings, wait out the storm, and rebuild, then submit to the mercies of the Mzali (they being followers of an undead mummy-child, after all). So, many Kalabuta would have an interest in defending the status quo in the face of a Mzali 'liberation', even it's not ideal. Thus Kalabuto would be 'sacked' but remain in colonial hands.
Here's links to what I've got so far:
Ft. Kalabuto District
Kalabuto Old Town District
I'm going to do all the cities, but the rest of them are much smaller so should go fast.
Pretty cool. I'm still working on a MapTools version with blocks overlaid on the map from SS#2. It ends up resulting in a much larger city, although it's given me the notion that the city may be sparsely populated as it could be considered to be declining due to the suffocating tributes demanded by the pirates.
Still a ways from being done, but I'll post a link when I've finished.
Map: Eleder City Blocks
Alrighty, I took a much different approach and decided to overlay a grid atop the actual map from the AP. To scale the grid I used two main considerations:
1. The size of the castle is described as a "huge 2-acre stretch of property" — BS. An acre is only 660 × 66-feet you'd need at least 10 such plots to make up even a single city block, let alone an area comprising 4 city blocks. Doing some quick math, I figured that they must have left out the zero in "huge 20-acre stretch of property". Multiplying the square footage out and then taking the square-root, you get something around 930-ft to a side. That's a reasonable size for a 2-block by 2-block area.
2. The slums south of the Diomar Wall are described as being "nearly a mile".
Setting the grid so that each square is 500-ft (just under half the area of a normal block), that makes the castle 4-blocks, and the distance from the pineapple fields to the Diomar Wall 10-blocks. This is also handy since it makes each block roughly 1/10 of a mile which makes Benjamin Franklin happy.
Some other considerations I made were to ONLY count houses and tenements towards the population. Also, when a certain type of building said it had to be adjacent to a certain number of houses, I dedicated that many houses to it alone. Therefore you don't have a shop, tavern, inn, and guildhouse sharing a single house — instead you've got one house for each of them.
Lastly, the base value calculations are pretty well jacked. I decided to treat each one as yielding 1/4 the base value it normally would. I then added enough shops, taverns, and tradesmen, etc. until that equaled within 75gp of the Base Value listed in SS#2.
Following are the tallies. Assume 1-each unless otherwise noted:
- Academy
- Baker
- Barracks (castle grounds)
- Black Market ×2 (Grallus Locks slave marker & a location in Outer Wall)
- Brewery
- Brothel
- Butcher
- Carpenter
- Castle & Gardens
- Cathedral
- City Wall ×4 (9-squares per side instead of 6 due to smaller blocks)
- Dump
- Exotic Craftsman (Jeweler's Market)
- Fletcher
- Garrison (Praetor's Block)
- Granary (castle grounds)
- Graveyard
- Guildhall ×2 (Nine Forts Collective & Portside Purveyors)
- Herbalist
- Houses ×16
- Inn ×2 (Sargava Club & New Halidad)
- Jail
- Luxury Store ×2 (Jewelry Market & New Halidad)
- Mansion ×3
- Market (Lower Harbor)
- Mill
- Monument
- Noble Villa (Daugustana Estate)
- Office of the City Guard (Grand Praetor)
- Park ×4
- Piers (Portside)
- Shop ×2 (Sargava Club & Outer Wall)
- Shrine (Outer Wall)
- Smith (Smelting House)
- Stable (public stable, not the Baron's)
- Tannery ×2 (Lower Harbor & counted the whaling co)
- Tavern ×4 (Sargava Club & one for each of the other districts except Northcoast)
- Temple
- Tenements ×20
- Theater (The Adventurer's Club)
- Town Commons
- Town Hall
- Tradesman ×2
- Watchtower ×4 (Crown Point, Militia Gate, Baron's Gate, Grallus Gate)
- Waterfront (Eleder Harbor)
- Weaver
- Witch's Hut
This yields the following stats:
- 117 Blocks
- 34 Defense
- 49 Economy
- 42 Loyalty
- 41 Stability
- -6 Unrest
- 26 Minor Items
- 10 Medium Items
- 3 Major Items
- Base Value: 5,675gp
Naturally since we're interested in running the place ourselves, this doesn't factor in any of the city's leadership, edicts, alignment, or other political situations, just the buildings.
Anyway, fairly pleased considering this is my first try at this. The only thing I'm a bit uncertain of is why the edicts don't seem to be tied to the size of a kingdom at all. I mean putting together even just a small city like Eleder, the numbers for edicts and leadership seem negligible by comparison. Am I missing something here?
That's awesome!
I made a judgement call that buildings couldn't share houses too, which I'm making the players go by in their development. I think it makes more sense.
My Sargava is going to be a lot smaller with my approach, since there'll be fewer buildings. The assumption I'm going with is that any settlement of any size has all of the expected facilities to some degree, whether or not there's actually a block-type for it. The blocks are more like Zoneing, where you are designating an area for a purpose, rather than the chits representing a specific building or group of buildings. So for example a tenement is a slum, a house is a Burgher/middle class neighborhood, a mansion is a wealthy neighborhood, etc. While a "Shop Block" would be more like a "candlestick lane" where a number of chandlers have shops and that's the area's primary business. I'm not paying too close attention to the given size dimensions in the KM rules. I'm treating those as the rule of thumb if I don't have an actual map to work with, but where I do have a map I'm letting the map determine the actual size of given zone. This makes sense to me because sometimes you buld up, sometimes out (compare Manhattan to LA). Local factors could also make the same benefits come from different size spaces.
I agree there's HUGE diminishing returns on leadership and edicts. It's a peculiarity of the system that the bigger the kingdom gets the less the policies and leaders matter. Tied to that is I notice there's no place in the rules for any kind of Profession skill. It's all just about base stat. Seems Profession(diplomat), Profession(spymaster), etc. should be part of the ruleset, and if it was the benefit could scale with kingdom size, allowing the roles to likewise scale.
What I may do to try to kill two birds with one stone is tweak the rules to encourage dividing up a kingdom into a number of smaller sub kingdoms - like how in actual governments there's a division between federal and local government, and how in actual feudal systems govenment is parceled out to vassels. I'm thinking something along the lines of a ruler could own several kingdoms, all of which add up as far as number of actions per turn they can take, but each has it's own cabinet of leaders, and can issue it's own edicts. This way you can get the leadership bonuses and edict benefits multiple times, but at the cost of not having one centralised treasury, more event rolls (so more chances of bad events), having to find more NPCs to fill all those leadership slots, etc.
I like this idea for Sargava, too as that will let me have the main government based in Eleder, but also have the other cities kind of be their own things. This means they won't all need to be connected by hexes, and makes for more interesting politics. It also better rationalises how the PCs own a bit of Sargava, are part of Sargava, but yet still independent from it.
Thanks, glad you like it! Also good to see that we're on the same page as far as houses go. :)
For the stuff like Leadership and Edicts, I'm thinking about maybe applying them repeatedly based upon kingdom size or city districts (or something). I'm seeing a table that lists how many hexes can be claimed per month based on kingdom size, perhaps applying edicts once per each size category AND once per city district would work out. (With buildings that halve costs applying only for that city.)
Still need to do some more thinking on it but we'll see...
Yea, this all has me thinking about it too. I'm liking the idea of each separate city allowing it's own local government, letting you duplicate roles and edicts. So there's a benefit to owning mulptiple cities connected by hexes, rather than just owning one city-state with multiple districts (which is otherwise much easier to manage considering how the control DC works).
Maybe that idea is worth developing further, like a simple one hex vassal with one district lets you just employ an additional a Ruler (the local Lord, mayor, whatever). Maybe if you allow it it's own treasury, you can employ an additional treasurer. If you build a barracks or garrison, you can employ and additional general. Something like that.
Oh, that's a neat idea. Maybe each one could contribute their own aid-another bonus to the sovereign...
Something else that bothers me is how little incentive there is to controlling hexes. Each one increases the control DC and consumption while giving practically nothing in return. It is worth XP, but that's a metagame incentive. You can do things faster if your kingdom is big, but the cost is very high. I can't escape the thought that this system isn't kingdom building as much as city building, the incentive is so strong to just keep adding distrticts full of stat enhansing and magic producing buildings to one city, and leave the size of the kingdom as small as possible (thereby maximinsing your economy roll and the ability to sell magic).
Thinking about what benefits policing large tracts of land would provide, it occurs to me that naturally that should be worth a stability bonus. 8 roads do give you a +1 stability, but considering it comes at the cost of an effective -8 to everything including stability, plus costing 8bp a turn, that's not much of a bonus.
I'm considering something like every 2 hexes you control gives a +3 to stabilty, or something like that, so you can effectivly net a +1 stability for every 2 hexes you control, so the costing 2bp per turn and an effective -2 to loyalty and economy, but I'm not sure what that will do to the balance, and if there shouldn't also be another mod elsewhere to dial it in.
I took a stab at building Sargava last night, and it went pretty well. One thing I realised is I don't think I have to mess with the value of controlled hexes on the economy side. It could be fine to deal with that on the military side - by controlling hexes you know if an enemy army enters a controlled hex, but they're invisible to you in uncontrolled hexes. Maybe a controlled hex is a speedbump too, something like an enemy needs to enter a controlled hex with an army before they can claim it themselves, and it gives the owner's forces some sort of home ground combat advantage. It turned out that in building Sargava, it was natural for me to want Sargava to control at least many of the hexes along it's border, and this kind of reason would make a lot of sense. This makes hexes the buffer that protects the cities, which is where the real wealth and power resides, and that sounds right to me.
Another thing I realised (as many others have before) is the magic item sell rules are wacked. I get their purpose in the Kingmaker AP - they want armies to cost a lot, and the want the PCs to afford them. However, for this mashup, I think it might be better to approach it a different way. Instead, cut back the magic market and reduce the cost of fielding armies. Much of why I want to tweak this is because I realised Sargava makes a lot more sense without this magic market and with cheaper standing armies.
Without the magic market I ended up with a Sargava that had about a 15BP income each month. I found that reasonable considering everything else. They could then be forced to pay the Pirates 10BP or so a month and be as strapped for cash as they're supposed to be. With the magic market, however, Sargava would take in 100bp a month or more, and that didn't seem reasonable. That kind of income means they could build castles and cathedrals every month. Even if they pay it all to the Pirates, then the Pirates could be building castles every month. If every nation was like that, the world would see the return of the glory of Azlant within a year.
You could apply that income to the cost of having to maintain huge standing armies (a la the kingmaker AP), but the flavor in the sourcebooks describe much smaller forces in play in Sargava. For example Fort Bandu's legion numbers 150, the Iron Cross (the biggest mercinary army in the region) numbers 100. Later books of the AP have much higher CR base creatures forming armies, but of also low numbers. I prefer that scale. It doesn't feel right to me to have hoards of high CR individuals running around when the PCs themselves spend so much of their adventuring lives as rare special indiviudals even at low level. I also dislike the idea that every kingdom in the world's econmy is driven by the sale of high end major majic items. It begs the question of who they're selling them all to.
So I'm considering options to tweek the magic rules. One thing I'm thinking of is changing the sale DC from a flat DC. Much of what makes Sargava's numbers so extreme is there comes a point where a DC50 is an auto success. If it was the base number to calculate the control DC for those sales, then it would scale with kingdom size. Minor items would sell at the normal control - DC 20+size. Major items would be 50+size. So, effectivly, trying to sell a major item would have a -30 penalty to the roll. This would describe the difficulty of finding a market for such high cost items better, I think. Another thing I'm considering is what others have done, and just cut the BP you get for the sale. This makes sense to me rationalised as the diminishing returns you get from dumping a lot of money into an economy all at once. In the real world that's inflation from devaluing the currency. The game world has no inflation, but I still think it's a resonable explaination for why you'd get more bang for the buck pumping in small amounts of money over time.
I think I'm going to use both approaches, and balance that on the other end with a decrease in the cost to maintain a standing army. I like the idea that the PCs can see what armies are stationed where for a long time before war starts, build their own forces and place them strategically, and have them sitting there for several KM turns before using them. This also would better explain humanoids who exist in the form of standing armies that have few visible means of support, like the Hobgoblins in the bandu hills, the factions in Saventh-Yhi, and the Pirates who aren't living off of Sargavan tribute.
Another counterbalance on that end I'm also considering is making paying to recuit a standing army the equivelent of a withdrawal from the national treasury. This would mean a loyalty check to raise an army, which makes sense, and would naturally limit the number of armies the PCs could raise over time. Conversly, I'm imagining mercinaries as being able to be bought out of the PCs pocket, so allows them to avoid the loyalty check and lets them be employed immediatly. This gives mercinaries a reason to exist, and makes story sense - people care if their sons and daughters are being asked to risk their lives, but mercinaries not so much. Likewise rather than the destruction of an army being a perminent -2, leave it as 2 unrest each. I want wars to be about more and smaller forces, so this would be better, and having it be about unrest, that can then be repaired, makes more sense to me.
Finally, I'm going to give the PCs the option to loot Saventh-Yhi for vast amounts of BP - this will give them the resources they need to build cool stuff, but also drive home the point of why everyone wants a piece of Saventh-Yhi in the first place. ... and add gravitas to the resultant arguments between the factions of division of those spoils, which could be the perfect thing to drive a wedge beteween the PCs an their allied factoins, and spark war in Sargava.
The protecting the borders idea does make sense in terms of wanting to control more land. The other thing that's been bugging me though is an entire city district only having a consumption cost of 1BP. That just seems silly.
A single hex represents 250 people and has a consumption of 1BP. Why shouldn't 250 people in a city also have a similar consumption? Countryside hexes may have roads and such, but cities also need sanitation, roadways, and lots of other things. I think that if you increase the consumption of a city from 1BP per district to 1BP per house, it suddenly becomes plenty clear why you would want to annex more hexes: farmland.
Just as you and I have both made buildings with the house requirement require that many houses of their own, I'm thinking we need to require that each house has a farm as well. That would also explain why losing hexes can quickly increase unrest — that's food that disappearing!
I agree with that, problem I discovered in building Sargava, though, is then the control DC goes off the chart. The way I rationalise leaving it alone is figuring that patrolling and policing a hex in a dangerous world filled with dragons and whatnot (at 125 sq.miles or so)costs as much as maintaining the civil services in a secure city district. One's an engineering challenge, the other a manpower & class level & logistical one.
In my Sargava build, I ended up with Sargava actually 'controlling' about 45 hexes - a fraction of the actual area, basically enough to make a line from Eleder to Fort Bandu covering the Mines of the Bandu Hills, then down the eastern border past Kalabuto, to defend the nation from external threats like Mzali. North of the Bandu hills is a ungoverned willderness, as is the southern jungle and the plains. Crown Point and Port Freedom are like islands in the wilderness, connected to Eleder only by water.
I like this because I want a kingdom to need hexes, but I also like the idea of only a limited area of the country actually 'under control'. This fits right in with the adventuring trope of there always being that local forest where the goblins live, and the villagers always asking the adventurers to do something about it, rather than the king (or the king giving the quest himself!). I'd always ask myself, why doesn't the king just move in with his troops and clear all this out? On the other hand there's also scads of 1st level commoners living out in isolated comunities in such a dangerous world with all these high CR things adventurers face all the time. If the king can't send in troops to clear out goblins, why are those high CR things in the mountains, still in the mountains and not making humanity extinct? KM gives the answer - controlled hexes are safe, but a king can only control so many hexes. Political bounderies are much bigger than what the nation can actually police at the local level. Hill and plains can be made into farms, so the govenment focuses on controlling them, and that leaves unclaimed hexes within the national boundaries for goblins in the forest and giants in the mountains... and sometimes villagers live out there too, maybe risking those threats to live tax free.
I think I know what I'm going to do about the magic market. I'm thinking of changing the benefit from BP to a bonus on the Economy roll in the generate income phase. So, rather than 2bp for a minor item and 15 BP for a major one, they get a +2 or +15 bonus to their generate income economy check. That effectivly divides the BP benefit by 5, but it also boosts their ability make the DC to generate income at all, so gives a mechanical advantage in exchange for the nerf. I think that also better models the benefit of a big cash sale to the economy.
It will also let me quit having to actually generate magic items. Often minor magic is just a potion or something that can't make the 4k cutoff, and the PCs are just interested because they want to sell it for BP. This way I can just say any item gives the +2 bonus (incidentally also making that level of item more useful), and only actually generate the item if the PCs actually want to buy something.
Evil.. EEEeeeevil!
My players are playing evil so at 5th level have added 20 hit dice worth of skeletons to their group, this has significantly increased their party size, not to mention they also have a druid, so add pet and summon menagerie, and Leadership is also on the agenda for them at 7th level. The animate dead is particularly powerful for them, however, since bloody skeletons are fast-healing and rise again an hour after being killed.
APL/CR-wise, the skels raise them from a APL5 to effectivly an APL7, and it's been showing as they have been walking over the CR5&6 Racing to Ruin encounters just like a APL7th party should. They've actually been morphing into RP encoutners with the wizard doing things like casting rope trick and playing solitare until the fight's over.
I've been mulling over options to stave off boredom. Not interested in nerfing the spell or other ham handed tactics. Also wouldn't be good to simply increase the CR of existing encoutners, as that would throw off the XP awards.
The solution I've settled on is to combine combat encoutners, upping the CR on some, while eliminating others altogether. Basically, I'll let the party gobble up encounters two at a time. This would have the effect of cutting the overall number of encoutners, possibly by half, but keep the awards the same, while nevertheless rewarding the players for using their abilities to the fullest in the form of getting though the content faster.
My concern, though, is how big the fights are going to get, and that's why I'm talking about all it here - KM has rules for mass combat and plan to employ those when armies do march later in the AP, but way things are going with Animate Dead, Summon Nature's Ally, Pets, and Cohorts -- all having to be counterbalanced by large numbers of opponents, I forsee mass combats happening way before we ever even get to the mass combat!
Hmm, I really haven't looked at the mass combat rules at all. However, since I've been running this in a PbP format, I've had quite a few encounters that involved high numbers of participants with very dynamic battlefield conditions.
Unfortunately, what works in a PbP might not necessarily be viable for a live game. One thought that comes to mind though is to consolidate the attacks of large numbers of low-level creatures (such as skeletons) using existing mechanics such as aid-another and vital strike. i.e. Instead of 2 skeletons attacking, they make one attack but you add an extra weapon damage die and increase their attack bonus by +2 for the aid another, etc.
You could also consolidate a whole gang of skeletons using their equivalent CR based upon the number of them.
You could also consolidate a whole gang of skeletons using their equivalent CR based upon the number of them.
That's basically the approach the mass combat rules take. Though, they instead take the CR of an individual and add a modifyer based on the number of individuals in the army to arrive at the CR of the army. A single indivicual is an army of it's CR-8, so something CR 9+ can, literaly, be an army of one.
On that note I've got some concerns about the power levels of individuals in the last book vs. the sizes of armies I want to work with derived from pervious books. For example there's large numbers things that basically serve the roll of mooks in the last book that can each personally take on whole Sargavan armies.
Combining encounters working well. Going to have them do a couple of turns of Kingmaker blind - They're forced to get too far ahead of the main expedition to get their mail, so will let them quewe orders for a couple months without knowing the turn results first. Interested to see how that goes, if it'll enhance the feeling of them being isolated in the wild not knowing what's going on at home.