|
I'm bringing this back.
I don't at all feel that being able to cast limitless 1HPs each day breaks the game.
It makes lower level adventures a bit more easy to survive and in higher level adventures it is completely pointless one way or the other.
And after a fight, when there's another fight coming soon, the PCs have to choose whether to use their Happy Stick or stronger -- or really weak Cure Minor Wounds. 1 HP per PC per round is not that much: 6 HP per minute I can deal with even if it's limitless.
What do you guys think?
If any of you playtested it, what happened?
I'm fine with the spell. Wands of cure light wounds effectively do this anyway with very little resource use. 750G for an average of 150 HP's itn't much. If you can make the wand it's even better.
|
I've been considering this also, honestly, possibly throwing in a rule that it can only heal somebody up to their Con mod. (plus level maybe). It can be done over and over, but can a target can only be healed to a certain point with such minor magic.
To me, that that places it above the very useless Stabalize (as it actually heals) but below the older Cure Minor in that it can't get characters fully healed, though it can be used forever.
|
|
I'd be really interested to hear from anyone who's tried it with 1st & 2nd Level PCs. That's the place where I can see it becoming a problem. But since it'd all depend on how many PCs are there (how many need healing), what Classes are represented (other healers?) and DM style (how many fights per session & how frequent).
Any suggestions -- if 1st & 2nd lvl become broken -- on how to make Cure Minor Wounds only become limitless at 3rd level? (That sound reasonable)
I'm bringing this back.
I don't at all feel that being able to cast limitless 1HPs each day breaks the game.
It makes lower level adventures a bit more easy to survive and in higher level adventures it is completely pointless one way or the other.
And after a fight, when there's another fight coming soon, the PCs have to choose whether to use their Happy Stick or stronger -- or really weak Cure Minor Wounds. 1 HP per PC per round is not that much: 6 HP per minute I can deal with even if it's limitless.
What do you guys think?
If any of you playtested it, what happened?
One item of concern is that it would make bleed effects really easy to deal with.
I've been considering this also, honestly, possibly throwing in a rule that it can only heal somebody up to their Con mod. (plus level maybe). It can be done over and over, but can a target can only be healed to a certain point with such minor magic.
To me, that that places it above the very useless Stabalize (as it actually heals) but below the older Cure Minor in that it can't get characters fully healed, though it can be used forever.
You mean Con Score, not mod I assume. Con mod for 16 con is 3.
Hmm, I think with such a limit it may actually be ok. useful at lower levels (where you don't have wands of CLW yet), and getting more and more useless at later levels.Also it's 10 HP/min not 6, but yeah.
Hmm, the issue with bleeds could be a valid point though. Maybe exclude it from healing bleeds, so you have to use an actual CxW spell or a channel for that?
Developer
|
This makes it totally possible for even the most low-level cleric (or other healer) to heal the most grievous wounds given enough time. This is a bad thing. It makes injury of any sort trivial, not just for the PC's, but for any and every character in the world who knows any sort of healer.
Maybe some people think their 1st-level healers should be able to heal every single injury ever sustained by anyone ever (save for magical, non-healable ones), but I don't, so I don't think this is a change I'd want to see in a game I was running or playing.
|
Developer
|
...any and every character in the world who knows any sort of healer...Ahhh.
Good point.
I guess I really have to come up with something like I said earlier -- shouldn't be available till 3rd level.
Yeah, I could totally see this being a higher-level ability, or even a wondrous item such as a chalice or candle which produced a "healing aura." It could be used by adventurers between battles or by churches and cathedrals but would otherwise be unavailable to any old 1st-level healer.
|
|
You mean Con Score, not mod I assume. Con mod for 16 con is 3.
Hmm, I think with such a limit it may actually be ok. useful at lower levels (where you don't have wands of CLW yet), and getting more and more useless at later levels.Hmm, the issue with bleeds could be a valid point though. Maybe exclude it from healing bleeds, so you have to use an actual CxW spell or a channel for that?
I was meaning Con Mod, +level, or roughly looking for maxing it around 1/3 to 1/2 max HP, at lower levels. It was a quick estimate. I'm also not to sure about the Bleed issue. I think it really depends on the game style. Honestly, a Heal check (usually as a Standard Action and fairly easy) does the same thing.
Bleed isn't meant to be a major threat, I don't think, so it being overcome with Cure Minor isn't that big a deal to me when you realize that you are spending a Standard Action (+) to Cure 1 HP and get rid of Bleed, which you could also do as a Standard Action (with bonuses) or Channel Healing a lot of people at range and for more HP. Just not sure it's actually a problem, though I can see it seeming that way on the surface.
What could be fun is to give it say a 50% chance of cancelling the Bleed?
...any and every character in the world who knows any sort of healer...Ahhh.
Good point.
I guess I really have to come up with something like I said earlier -- shouldn't be available till 3rd level.
If you'd house rule an old spell back in, why not just create your own spell? I'm thinking something along the lines of...
Accelerated Healing
Level: 0
Cast Time: 1 minute (?)
Benefit: This spell gives the caster magical/divine assistance in treating deadly wounds, reducing the time required from 1 hour down to 1 minute (?).
Something like this does the following:
* removes the concern about bleed effects
* balances against just being able to spam heal
* allows it to scale a bit with level
* leverages an existing skill with established rules
Considerations:
* I didn't propose any bonus to the Heal check so that the spell wasn't 'broken' at lower levels
* I could see this spell and Guidance being a good combination
* I wanted to suggest a cast time of more than 1 round so that this wasn't really used in combat
|
|
How 'bout this:
A Cleric can cast as many Cure Light Wounds as his WIS modifier until 4th level, when he or she can do it limitlessly.
A precedent here is the Feat, Toughness, which is inverted but still has that 3rd Lvl / 4th Lvl distinction.
Im thinking it should almost work the opposite. Infinte (or intended to be most useful) at low levels, and less so at 5th+.
|
Developer
|
Accelerated Healing
Level: 0
Cast Time: 1 minute (?)
Benefit: This spell gives the caster magical/divine assistance in treating deadly wounds, reducing the time required from 1 hour down to 1 minute (?).
I like this idea. The healer still needs to expend two uses of a healer's kit and can only heal once per day per character using this method. They also need to use up one of their orison slots or spells known. And the spell can't be used to do the same thing that stabilize does. Seems balanced to me.
I like this idea.
Could be balanced by making the spell read something like:
"As cure light wounds but this spell heals 1 point of damage per caster level ( max 3 points at 3rd.) A single subject of this spell cannot be healed more than 10 points per caster level per 24 hour period. Resting for 8 hours and receiving the benefit of natural healing similarly resets the amount a subject can be healed in a twenty four hour period. At 5th level there is no limit to how many points a subject can be healed by this spell. This spell is too minor to close a grievous wound entirely, and does not end bleed damage as magical healing usually does. This is an exception to the rule that magical healing ends ongoing bleed damage."
Scaling the above would allow for the amount of healing younger looking for out of a cure minor wounds spell.
|
I despise unlimited spells (for a ton of reasons), but if there is a need for a zero level Cure Minor Wounds I would offer up:
Unlimited use but cannot heal more than a targets Con modifier (min 1) in total points per 24 hours.
Still can be useful at low levels, ex - where a full CLW is not needed (couple of points down)- without stepping on other spells and resources.
Probably too "low powered" for this crowd is looking for but I thought I'd put it out here.
I would just say that a person can only receive as many Cure Minor Wounds as they have Hit Dice, per day. It is the simplest to track, no math required, and is powerful enough to help out, but not enough to unbalance anything.
I mean, it was removed from the game, when they could have fixed it, but they didn't. There was probably a reason.
Simply removing it was probably the way to go. It sounds like solutions presented are adding an unnecessary level of paperwork.
I am unconvinced by the idea of healing at will with no drawbacks. And anything that has daily limit of uses other than once per day (like witch's healing hex) adds unnecessary paperwork as Tiny Coffee Golem said.
.
.
On the other hand, something like this - allowing for healing at the expense of limited resource (i.e. casters hit points):
School: Necromancy; Level: Clr 0; Drd 0; Sor/Wiz 0; Witch 0
Casting Time: 1 round
Components: V, S
Range: Touch
Target: Caster and one creature
Duration: Concentration (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance: Yes
Channels caster's lifeforce to another creature. Each round the concentration and physical contact is maintained caster loses 1 hit point and the target heal 1 hit point.
Another option that comes to me is:
School: Conjuration (healing); Level: Clr 0; Drd 0; Witch 0
Casting Time: 1 minute
Components: V, S, M (herbs worth 25 gp*)
Range: Touch
Target: Living creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance: Yes
Empowers herbs used as a material component healing the target for 1d4 points of damage.
*Cost makes it close equivalent to one-half of potion of cure light wounds bought. The actual cost and healing can be tweaked depending upon campaign needs (set at 15 gp and 1d8 hp healed it would make it equivalent of single charge from a wand of CLW, at 25 and 1d8 to single scroll of CLW).
Consider possibly making any person capable of receiving the spell just once per day. This still allows you to stop bleed, automatically stabilize and heal a character for at least one extra point of damage per day (possibly more if you use the 1/level up to maximum of x listed above.) For a level 0 spell, that's reasonably useful - a spell that may come in handy at lower levels but becomes seriously outdated as the party becomes more powerful.
I am unconvinced by the idea of healing at will with no drawbacks. And anything that has daily limit of uses other than once per day (like witch's healing hex) adds unnecessary paperwork as Tiny Coffee Golem said.
.
.
On the other hand, something like this - allowing for healing at the expense of limited resource (i.e. casters hit points):
School: Necromancy; Level: Clr 0; Drd 0; Sor/Wiz 0; Witch 0
Casting Time: 1 round
Components: V, S
Range: Touch
Target: Caster and one creature
Duration: Concentration (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance: Yes
Channels caster's lifeforce to another creature. Each round the concentration and physical contact is maintained caster loses 1 hit point and the target heal 1 hit point.
I like this idea. It's all the more reason to get your cleric a ring of regeneration. Or a troll cleric. ;-)
|
|
I've been considering this also, honestly, possibly throwing in a rule that it can only heal somebody up to their Con mod. (plus level maybe). It can be done over and over, but can a target can only be healed to a certain point with such minor magic.
That seems the ideal solution to me, too. Usable as a cantrip, but no target can receive more curing from these spells than their Con modifier (or level, or Con mod + level).
Consider possibly making any person capable of receiving the spell just once per day. This still allows you to stop bleed, automatically stabilize and heal a character for at least one extra point of damage per day (possibly more if you use the 1/level up to maximum of x listed above.) For a level 0 spell, that's reasonably useful - a spell that may come in handy at lower levels but becomes seriously outdated as the party becomes more powerful.
Definitely. With attempt to allow it more times per day it start's to be bothersome.
I like this idea. It's all the more reason to get your cleric a ring of regeneration. Or a troll cleric. ;-)
Beware of the troll shamans!
And uh, party healer hadn't got ring of regeneration as soon as he could afford it?! ;)|
|
I've been considering this also, honestly, possibly throwing in a rule that it can only heal somebody up to their Con mod. (plus level maybe). It can be done over and over, but can a target can only be healed to a certain point with such minor magic.That seems the ideal solution to me, too. Usable as a cantrip, but no target can receive more curing from these spells than their Con modifier (or level, or Con mod + level).
I think I am still wording it a little off for what I mean.
The idea is that a person can only be healed up to a certain point of their max HP. But can be braught to that point any number of times per day and there is no limit to the amount of people this can be cast on.
So if Bob has 40 HP, and <for the sake of his limit> can only be healed up to 5 HP by Cure Minor, he can take 42 damage, get healed (a total of 7 times with Cure Minor) get hurt get healed again, etc. . . He can be healed (up to HP) any number of times per day, as can the rest of the party, just not past 5HP through Cure Minor.
1.) The party will always have a way to keep party members in the game, even if out of healing and they have minimume HP, they can still play.
2.) Going back to the idea of giving casters something magical to do all day long, well Wizards get all that, why not Clerics/Oracles?
3.) It still maintains all the themes and issues some people have problems with it for, like for example if time is of the essence, this doesn't mean infinte healing, just gives the illusion of that.
4.) Stabalize is pretty pointless, even at 1st level.
Back when PF finally came out, I remember a lot of people saying that infinte Create Water would destroy the game, and I think that them removing Cure Minor was along the same lines of thought. Create Water didn't, and if you look at Bleed (the opposite of Cure Minor/Stabilize), it has something like this already worked in too.
I suggest that Goodberry be used as a reference rather than Cure spells to manage a many-many use healing spell.
Maybe a Holy-chew? Cast: 1 minute, Duration: 24h, Creates a 1hp healing consumate in a full-round action causing AoO. The same creature can benifit from up to Wis and Con Mods added unless fully opposed to deities' alignment (ex.: LG vs CE).
|
|
I will never, ever, ever, be able to fathom a system that tells me that there are limited and unlimited spells, but does not tell me why. I get, oh how I have had this discussion before, that all this talk about consistency is irrelevant, after all it's a game of Dungeons AND "Dragons", but I meant it. My games do not have “0” level spells. My games have spells that are prepared, and then go away when they are cast (it worked 36 years ago, and still works today – it’s all in how you play the game, not in the rules)
I know I am stuck in an old world of gaming concepts, but for me it just is not possible to tell my players that their characters live in a world where you can cast a light spell, ad infinitum, but daylight, ho, ho ho, no way, that is different.
So. . . you would allow Spellcasters to have ALL infinite spells maybe? I'm in.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There is a strong analog for the effects this would have in the world of video games, particularly shooters. The mechanism is regenerating health vs health bars.
Without cure minor wounds, healing is a battle of attrition. Each wound builds tension as the hits stack up and the ability to recover the injuries deplete (think Left 4 Dead). Individual encounters are less intense then say modern warfare (except for key points), but each little scratch starts to mount, and the challenge is avoiding as many little scratches as you can so you are ready for the 'big' encounter that you expect to come later. The Director (DM) can provide or not provide healing items to aleviate this tension depending on the severity (read healing potions and other healing rewards/loot) and what kind of healing capacity the players bring with them as they head out into the adventure is important.
With cure minor wounds, the game can be compared to modern warefare. There is no slow build of tension. If a given encounter doesnt push you to the threat of death, hiding in a corner for a while will let you heal up. And sometimes sequences can happen one after another, but its all at a much higher pace, and more intense then the health bar crowd. What this means is that you both MUST and CAN ramp up the intensity of each individual sequence knowing that after its over, if there is a brief stop all the tension is essentially gone. This means bigger more elaborate fights all the time, which is good or bad depending on perspective and what you are trying to achieve, but its a definate change (no slow build of tension) from what happens when there are health bars.
Minor change to transfer health description:
Each round the concentration and physical contact is maintained caster suffers 2 points of damage and the target heals 1 point of damage. Any effect that prevents damage to the caster also prevents following healing.
This is to reduce effectivness of converting temporary hit points into healing and to avoid attempts to abuse the spell by preventing the damage in the first place.
|
|
What do you guys think?
If any of you playtested it, what happened?
I brought it back except I only allow it to heal up to half max and it takes 1 minute to cast.
This makes the spell able to always bring back someone back from the brink of death (but never to full power), and it eats up time (i.e. buff spell duration) in a nice calculable manner.
It's working pretty good.
That seems way too powerful for my tastes. You can get 4 maximized CLW (1d8+5) equivalent in just under an hour, something easily done before camping for the night. Too powerful for a 0-level spell imo.
Then again, I'm playing the wrong game.
|
|
What do you guys think?
If any of you playtested it, what happened?
I brought it back except I only allow it to heal up to half max and it takes 1 minute to cast.
This makes the spell able to always bring back someone back from the brink of death (but never to full power), and it eats up time (i.e. buff spell duration) in a nice calculable manner.
It's working pretty good.
Drop the Min casting time to <at most> a Full Round Action. Maybe top of the healing at 1/4 HP?
I haven't playtested it, per say, but back in 3.5 we used infinite 0 level spells long before PathFinder, and it wasn't an issue (anywhere from truly infinite to capping at an HP limit). It did extend the amount of time (in an in-game day) of play to a point, and also prevented some PC deaths (from non-dramatic, not fun ways like your out of resources but can't get to a resting point before that random encounter, that crits on your low HP player, dice rolled in front of everyone).
|
|
The wrong game Auxmaulous?
Yeah, in regards to PC power level and reasonable expectations.
I just have differing views on power, resource management, expectations, etc, from most other posters here.
But the problem is mine, not theirs.
Still think that unlimited healing is too powerful, even for 3.5 gaming.
|
|
The wrong game Auxmaulous?Yeah, in regards to PC power level and reasonable expectations.
I just have differing views on power, resource management, expectations, etc, from most other posters here.
But the problem is mine, not theirs.
Still think that unlimited healing is too powerful, even for 3.5 gaming.
It really isn't that much more powerful, honestly, and it really doesn't mess with the resource management nearly as much as you seem to think, in all honesty. Well, not in the sense I'm suggesting that Cure Minor works. It can't heal anyone even near their max HP, just enough to let them continue to act and know they need to be very careful if they want to continue to do so, but it doesn't make more powerful Cures any less desired nor does it get rid of the need to a CLW wand or potions.
I'd also probably restrict it to <only> the Cleric/Oracle, also. No Druid/Ranger/Paladin/Bard/Witch/Other. In combat, a Standard Action to heal 1 HP at Touch Range is almost never going to worth it (either you really screwed up earlier, the player is being an idiot and probably deserves whats comming, or luck was just that bad), but you probably shouldn't be playing a class with this spell to begin with in all but the last case, which should be very rare. Otherwise, there is always something more beneficial you could do, even probably Aid Another.
Out of Combat, each +1 HP is -1 to all your existing Buffs that, I don't know, you might actually like for the next fight or encounter. :)
|
|
(in relation to Fast healing)
Well, via temporary effect yes. Long term, no.
I can see the need for it in an insanely violent and destructive game, I just can't see it for 3.5 or derivatives, that or the need to re-set HP between encounters.
I think (and my players do) that the current 3rd ed incarnation is too easy. It would be fun to see a campaign or adventure that would require fast heal or regen for the PC; now that would be interesting.
It really isn't that much more powerful, honestly, and it really doesn't mess with the resource management nearly as much as you seem to think, in all honesty. Well, not in the sense I'm suggesting that Cure Minor works. It can't heal anyone even near their max HP, just enough to let them continue to act and know they need to be very careful if they want to continue to do so, but it doesn't make more powerful Cures any less desired nor does it get rid of the need to a CLW wand or potions.
Well, coming off of a 2nd ed game I would say that unlimited healing (even to half) is a huge game changer when it comes to resource management.
Also, I do have a problem with the "to half" max approach as still being overly powerful for a 0 level spell. At low levels you can easily (over the course of an adventuring day) have CmW restore half of what CLW would have restored - that effectively doubles your healing output and halved your need for healing resources.
You don't think that will have any balance issues or effect on the game as a whole?
Edit: Anyway - Not trying to start a fight with anyone here (have enough enemies already), I'm just stating a different view on what unlimited 0-level spells should/should not be able to do.
|
|
Well, coming off of a 2nd ed game I would say that unlimited healing (even to half) is a huge game changer when it comes to resource management.
Also, I do have a problem with the "to half" max approach as still being overly powerful for a 0 level spell. At low levels you can easily (over the course of an adventuring day) have CmW restore half of what CLW would have restored - that effectively doubles your healing output and halved your need for healing resources.
You don't think that will have any balance issues or effect on the game as a whole?
Edit: Anyway - Not trying to start a fight with anyone here (have enough enemies already), I'm just stating a different view on what unlimited 0-level spells should/should not be able to do.
I'm fine with that. Honestly, I think half is too high also. I'm think more along the lines of maybe the what the character would be able to naturally heal after a Days rest. Anyway, it's not a big deal. :)
|
|
So somebody else suggested that since I don't like a system that has both limited and limitless spell mechanics in the same game, would I go the other way, from limited, my preference, to limitless, not my preference and I only suggested that that was conceivable because...
Oh never mind
That was me, and I was just joking. I get what you are saying. Although if you ever do run a infinite 0 - 9th level spellcasting game, I'm there. :)