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Is it possible to have PCs play in the first steps scenarios, but play in other scenarios in between? This would cause them to level early. Is this possible and how would it work? If they can only play through say the first scenario and then level off of other scenarios, when do they declare faction and do they get the pp from the first scenario?
Though I can see someone playing 1 or 2 of these and not finishing the series and moving on to other scenarios, but once you Reach Level 2 you can no longer play them, they are 1st Level only.
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So do they declare a faction at the start of their first non "First Steps" scenario? and also receive the pp from their played scenarios at that time? That is what would make the most sense to me, but I am not sure that is how it would work.
So to clear up some Common Confusion, After playing any First Steps Scenario you get your Prestige Points, they are Not "Held" until all 3 parts are complete.
I am not Sure where this confusion is since it does not say this anywhere, in fact all the first steps say the exact opposite..
The only thing that is different, is that the prestige points they got in part 1 and 2 don't count towards a Faction until you complete part 3.
Success Conditions
In order for the PCs to earn their Prestige Point for completing the adventure, they must have completed at least three of the four tasks on Ambrus Valsin’s list.Faction Missions
There are no faction-specific missions in this scenario, as PCs playing through the First Steps series have not yet chosen factions, so any PC who meets the scenario’s success conditions earns a second Prestige Point for completing the scenario. When a PC earns her third Chronicle (after completing A Vision of Betrayal), all previously earned prestige will be reported to her chosen faction.
On to the other part, I would have them Choose a Faction if they cannot complete the First Steps Scenarios right before playing another scenario. Also, if they where holding off on picking a Faction trait they should do that as well.
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to clear up some Common Confusion, After playing any First Steps Scenario you get your Prestige Points, they are Not "Held" until all 3 parts are complete.
I am not Sure where this confusion is since it does not say this anywhere, in fact all the first steps say the exact opposite..
The only thing that is different, is that the prestige points they got in part 1 and 2 don't count towards a Faction until you complete part 3.
I think the confusion may come from the possibility of Prestige being "held" for reporting, so it goes under the correct faction.
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Not clear what you are saying here, when your Report these you out down 2 Prestige in the report....I think the confusion may come from the possibility of Prestige being "held" for reporting, so it goes under the correct faction.
I think he means that those who report them to Paizo for entry hold them back until a faction is assigned, not that table GMs hold them back.
I just send mine up the ladder, handing it to the store liaison, though, so I can't say for sure.
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The confusion comes from the statement:
When a PC earns her third Chronicle (after completing A Vision of Betrayal), all previously earned prestige will be reported to her
chosen faction.
This is something new and different. Reporting in the past you always selected a faction and recorded the number of earned Prestige. I believe that you still do that. I am not sure the reporting tool would allow you to report without selecting a faction.
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Whether prestige awards are ties to following the faction commander's little side task, or to being a more successful pathfinder in general, the Fame is always a measure of how highly esteemed / useful a character is to some faction or another.
I would rule that such gifts are not yet available, because the character does not yet have a relationship with a faction that would give him such items. It's one of the disadvantages of running through the First Steps series.
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I would rule that such gifts are not yet available, because the character does not yet have a relationship with a faction that would give him such items. It's one of the disadvantages of running through the First Steps series.
While not an official ruling on the matter, my own opinion is in agreement with Chris. The 2 PP purchase is thorough your faction and as such, without a faction you would not be able to make such a purchase.
*** Once per session, you can acquire any single item of this cost or less from your faction by spending the appropriate PP. Items purchased this way are worth 0 gp and cannot be sold.
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I would say you guys are wrong...
In addition to the generic Prestige Awards available to all Pathfinders regardless of faction (listed in Table 5–3), each faction offers specific Prestige Awards available on to members, which are listed with each full faction description presented in the Pathfinder Society Field Guide.
Only the Prestige Awards in the Field Guide are related to Faction, that is why You don't lose the ones in the PFS Guide when you change factions.
Edit: just so we all Know, the where it says Table 5-3 is an error in the Guide, it supposed to say 5-4.
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So just so you know, by that, it would mean you would not allow them to spend Prestige points for Remove Disease either, which would be bad...
I think the Guide is clear that these Prestige Awards are not related to Factions, so by denying them to the players does not actually meet what the guide says.
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I would say you guys are wrong...
That certainly is your right. The term 'regardless of faction' is different than the term 'without a faction.'
While Fame and Prestige Points are related, they represent two different things within a faction and serve different purposes.
Therefore, Fame and Prestige have no values outside the faction system. If you have no faction, you are outside the faction system.
Fame is a non-expendable number that functions similarly to an ability score—the higher your Fame, the greater your renown. Higher Fame scores unlock resources that can be purchased from your faction with Prestige Points and increase the maximum cost of items you can purchase with gold.
No faction, no Prestige Point purchase.
In the context of table 5-4, the word Generic means "not any of the specific factions." It does not mean "any level 1 NPC off the street who doesn't belong to a faction." There are faction specific Prestige Awards in the Field Guide. I don't have a copy on hand right now, but I don't think there are any additional generic Prestige Awards in that book beyond these listed on table 5-4.
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Mark, I am going to say this right out... You are wrong... Normally I would not commit to something like that, but with this I will.
Everything you mention Has nothing to do with what I said.
Yes Fame unlocks Rewards you can get from your Faction, and all thos rewards are in the Field Guide, but once Again Table 5-4 Is Not related to that. Table 5-4 is Non Faction associated. If it was Linked to your Fame within a Faction then you would lose it when you change your faction, which you do not.
So You are Dead straight Wrong..
That said, this is a Special Situation only related to First Steps..
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Mark, I am going to say this right out... You are wrong... Normally I would not commit to something like that, but with this I will.
Dragonmoon, then I'm dead wrong right next to him.
I'm reading the guide to note that all faction leaders can supply your PC with a wand of infernal healing, so it doesn't matter which affiliation he's chosen. That's not the same as having no faction at all.
In character, how do you think this would work? With whom is the PC bargaining with, to obtain the item? Or are you envisioning a magic providence, exchanging prestige points for loot that falls from midair?
Take a look at the kinds of things that a character loses when he switches factions: if she was an Eagle Knight, or a Lion Blade, she loses her status in those groups. But the faction leader isn't going to ask for her wand back. (Or, I suppose, if she does, the new faction leader hands over an identical wand.)
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So you can expend 2 PP to buy a 750GP item (usually a wand of CLW) and buy something you don't have a the fame for?
In the past I have never allowed this.
Did I say that? Where did you get that From. Some things Require Fame, like Table 5-3, Or stuff from your Faction in the Field Guide. Some things Only Require Prestige Points, Like Table 5-4. What I am saying is your Fame does not mean a Thing for the Stuff on Table 5-4, since Fame (Or Faction) does not mean anything for table 5-4 people who are in First Steps should be allowed to Spend Prestige on stuff on that Table Before Picking a Faction.. Why? Because It says right in the Guide that Faction does not matter for That Table.
Nothing on Table 5-4 is linked to a Level of Fame.
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Regardless of faction strikes me as meaning just that. Those without a faction, though, still have prestige. They have the points, just not the affiliation. These items require no affiliation. Why give them points they cannot spend? What does this serve? How does this balance anything?
I see no positive impact on play from denying the chance to purchase items or services with prestige.
They've gained goodwill with the society itself, so, though political connections aren't involved, the society will put a few resources at the character's disposal.
Otherwise it would make no sense to give any prestige before all 3 parts were completed. The Fame doesn't matter. 4 Fame on the table is not 4 or less... which means your buying power doesn't change until 9 fame.
Yet these points are given anyway. What purpose other than to use them? Otherwise it would make more sense to hold onto them until the 3rd is complete.
Mark, you are a venture captain, so rather than saying you are wrong, I will say that ruling this way hurts the game. It confuses new players and old alike. The guide says they can spend points on things, and friends playing different 1st level scenarios can spend those points, but suddenly they cannot. I see no benefit to this. No balance, no clarity, no consistency is gained.
The language can be read the way Dragonmoon and I read it, it does not say how non-faction PCs are treated, please don't read it the way you have thusfar. Nothing good comes of that interpretation.
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Nothing good comes of that interpretation.
That, sir, simply isn't true. It can get changed, and that would be the good to come of it.
The plain and simple fact is that the wording is a holdover artifact of a time when it wasn't possible to have this situation and was not properly updated to address such a case that is now possible.
Does it make any sense that a random level 1 character can play #01-45 and earn 1 XP and 2 PP for their chosen faction and then turn around and spend 2 PP for a Wand of CLW before playing #01-39 vs. a level 1 character playing First Steps #1 not being able to do the same before playing First Steps #2? Of course not.
Is that what the Guide says? That's what I see.
First Steps was a great idea with the best of intentions, but it's got plenty of operational issues (for one reason or another).
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I'm gonna voice my opinion here, whether people take note of it or not. I allowed said player to have a free purchase of 750 gp to purchase a wand of cure light wounds.
My reasoning?
First off, I figured there are no special rulings saying this would be unallowed in the First Steps intro series. This is a special case, which should have special rules.
Secondly, why forbid it? In a way it makes the first steps intro series' characters less-balanced, unequal. While it might seem thematically appropriate to some, it's arbitrary and contrary to the organized play campaign's ideals.
Thirdly, to new players it would be bad to say "no you can't buy it because you are such noobs". Better to show them how all the new stuff works right from the beginning. Allow them use the prestige points to acquire new gimmicks.
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Venture-Captain, Croatia & Slovenia
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I already went with what Dragnmoon & Deussu said. Reasoning is that players will very likely play with other GMs and there is no sense in holding anything back for anyone as I don't see how a GM would be able to keep track of god knows how many characters.
Once Chronicles are given out, thats that.
Also it makes more sense that PPs &FPs aren't directly connected with specific faction because already in the first First Steps adventure players are doing favours for different factions and as some of them say 'they repay their debts'. So it all checks out in my book.
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In Service to Lore, page 4, in the boxed text says this:
'At the end of the third scenario, A Vision
of Betrayal, after the PCs have met and done a favor for
all 10 faction heads, they will be able to choose their PCs’
allegiance and gain retroactive prestige for the completion
of the previous two scenarios.'
To me, that seems to say that the prestige is not awarded until the completion of the 3rd adventure, when you pick a faction.
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In Service to Lore, page 4, in the boxed text says this:
'At the end of the third scenario, A Vision
of Betrayal, after the PCs have met and done a favor for
all 10 faction heads, they will be able to choose their PCs’
allegiance and gain retroactive prestige for the completion
of the previous two scenarios.'To me, that seems to say that the prestige is not awarded until the completion of the 3rd adventure, when you pick a faction.
That is not what mine says
At the end of this scenario, after the PCs have met and done a favor for all 10 faction heads, they can choose their PCs' faction; the prestige PCs have earned in all three scenarios is then applied to their faction.
Hate to tell ya, Dragnmoon, but I just downloaded the scenarios tonight and my copy uses retroactive also. It must have been updated since you downloaded your copy.
What you are quoting is from Part 3, not Part 1. Part 2 also uses retroactive.
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Hate to tell ya, Dragnmoon, but I just downloaded the scenarios tonight and my copy uses retroactive also. It must have been updated since you downloaded your copy.
What you are quoting is from Part 3, not Part 1. Part 2 also uses retroactive.
That is interesting, yes I was looking at 3, 1 & 2 say retro, which contradicts this..
faction Missions
There are no faction-specific missions in this scenario, as PCs playing through the First Steps series have not yet chosen factions, so any PC who meets the scenario's success conditions earns a second Prestige Point for completing the scenario. When a PC earns her third Chronicle (after completing A Vision of Betrayal), all previously earned prestige will be reported to her chosen faction.
Pg 20
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Hate to tell ya, Dragnmoon, but I just downloaded the scenarios tonight and my copy uses retroactive also. It must have been updated since you downloaded your copy.
What you are quoting is from Part 3, not Part 1. Part 2 also uses retroactive.
That is interesting, yes I was looking at 3, 1 & 2 say retro, which contradicts this..
faction Missions
There are no faction-specific missions in this scenario, as PCs playing through the First Steps series have not yet chosen factions, so any PC who meets the scenario's success conditions earns a second Prestige Point for completing the scenario. When a PC earns her third Chronicle (after completing A Vision of Betrayal), all previously earned prestige will be reported to her chosen faction.
Pg 20
It could make sense if you earn the prestige as you go, but don't get it awarded until you have a faction. Which sort of makes sense; you've done some favours, so you're on the radar for the factions, but they won't start supporting you until you actually commit to their cause.
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From Part 1:
Faction Missions
There are no faction-specific missions in this scenario,
as PCs playing through the First Steps series have not
yet chosen factions, so any PC who meets the scenario’s
success conditions earns a second Prestige Point for
completing the scenario. When a PC earns her third
Chronicle (after completing A Vision of Betrayal), all
previously earned prestige will be reported to her
chosen faction.
Previously earned, to me at least, says that they, indeed, DO have any prestige earned, even without a chosen faction.
And, therefore, since the Grand Lodge itself is one of the 10 factions, they can spend those prestige points with the Pathfinder Society to gain a Wand of Cure Light wounds or the equivalent. Or, on the other hand, it would be the responsibility of the Shadow Lodge, as the union organizers, to be able to provide such necessary supplies to the newbie as part of their stated faction goal.
As always, YMMV. My mileage is that this set of scenarios is supposed to be an introduction (and I mean nothing like the LG Intro mods), not a PC killer, there is no reason to disallow PP purchases at this stage of the game.
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From Part 1:
Faction Missions
There are no faction-specific missions in this scenario,
as PCs playing through the First Steps series have not
yet chosen factions, so any PC who meets the scenario’s
success conditions earns a second Prestige Point for
completing the scenario. When a PC earns her third
Chronicle (after completing A Vision of Betrayal), all
previously earned prestige will be reported to her
chosen faction.Previously earned, to me at least, says that they, indeed, DO have any prestige earned, even without a chosen faction.
And, therefore, since the Grand Lodge itself is one of the 10 factions, they can spend those prestige points with the Pathfinder Society to gain a Wand of Cure Light wounds or the equivalent. Or, on the other hand, it would be the responsibility of the Shadow Lodge, as the union organizers, to be able to provide such necessary supplies to the newbie as part of their stated faction goal.
As always, YMMV. My mileage is that this set of scenarios is supposed to be an introduction (and I mean nothing like the LG Intro mods), not a PC killer, there is no reason to disallow PP purchases at this stage of the game.
Well, having just run the 3 modules over this weekend and not giving the players prestige until the end of the 3rd, I can say that lacking a healing wand didn't overly faze them. The first module seems to be the most dangerous of the three - there's one very nasty encounter in there. It's the only mod of the three where I had a good chance of just killing a character outright. The second and third have some healing items scattered about, which offsets the no prestige thing.
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My own thoughts, for what they're worth:
First Steps is supposed to be a good intro to PFS play and the factions, so that players have a better sense of the world they're in and the background of the factions. It lets them play a bit and choose a faction after seeing what the faction heads are like - this is great. It encourages a richer background for players and Gs alike, and prevents the "oh, I shouldn't have chosen this faction" blues to some degree. I love these scenarios, and will run them constantly for every new player I recruit.
If they are supposed to introduce PFS, why would they use different rules on how to spend PP? We're teaching people the wrong way to play for the rest of their careers. We're also penalizing them for playing the First Steps scenarios instead of another scenario, which would not suffer this limitation. PP can be important to survival at first level - sometimes you need a potion of cure light wounds or something to make up for uneven party composition or just bad luck.
I agree with Chris and Mark that what it says in the scenarios and the Guide is vague enough to be interpreted as "you don't get prestige until after the third scenario" and/or "you get it but can't spend PP until you choose a faction". I can't believe that's the intent, though - it's a little thing that got missed. I think we all agree it would be more inviting to new players to allow them to fully participate in PFS during these scenarios.
So, do we cling to the vague rules and restrict players until a change is issued officially (in all of Mark Moreland's spare time), or do we realize the RAI and go with that? I don't know the answer. I do know that allowing PCs to spend PP to the Pathfinder Society at large instead of a faction for non-faction-specific awards doesn't seem out of place at all - in fact, IIRC somewhere it says that the Grand Lodge is the "faction" for starting Pathfinders until they choose another one, so that justifies things nicely. (Sorry, have to run to meeting, will check that reference when I get back!)