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Is it possible to earn 1/2 a prestige point for slow progression by only completing the group missing / one of the two missions from season 2 ?
The society guide says they need to complete both missions to get 1 point. but no mention of earning half points.
Reading it as is, needing to complete both missions to earn 1 point, its possible on the slow progression to run into a string of half successes, and earn no prestige for a while.
Is it possible to earn 1/2 a prestige point for slow progression by only completing the group missing / one of the two missions from season 2 ?
The society guide says they need to complete both missions to get 1 point. but no mention of earning half points.
Reading it as is, needing to complete both missions to earn 1 point, its possible on the slow progression to run into a string of half successes, and earn no prestige for a while.
To
maintain balance between characters on both advancement
tracks, those PCs utilizing the slow advancement track
may only earn 1 Prestige Point per scenario. This point
is dependent on completing both the overall scenario
objective and the character’s faction mission.
You may only earn one point. To earn one point you must complete both the scenario objective and your faction mission.
Nothing in this says you may earn "partial credit".
That's the risk with slow advancement. You may never get prestige. Though, considering a recent poll on the boards revealed that the full prestige record hovers somewhere around 93% . So don't sweat it.
Anyway. My advice: "It's role-play. Don't metagame it. Don't roll-play it." (I struggle with this myself.)
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I'm never going to go slow most likely. just wondering as a GM.
I read the section in the society guide. I'm asking on the forums to see how other GMs are handling it, and whether any one knows if it will be addressed in a FAQ at all.
Its not a point of role play vs. metagaming. If someone doesn't make their dc 25 check in a skill they don't have in the slow path, they've got a risk of losing out on all their prestige for that game.
Prestige / Fame determines what cool gear they can buy. And eventually if they can afford a free raise dead.
Earning 1/2 - 1 prestige and 1/2 and xp per game for a slow progression would keep it more in line / balanced, with the fast progression.
otherwise slow-pokes have a chance of really falling behind on gear, and on prestige to resurrect themselves if something bad chances to happen.
And being that they're playing more adventures, they're exposed to more chances where they might die.
I'm never going to go slow most likely. just wondering as a GM.
I read the section in the society guide. I'm asking on the forums to see how other GMs are handling it, and whether any one knows if it will be addressed in a FAQ at all.Its not a point of role play vs. metagaming. If someone doesn't make their dc 25 check in a skill they don't have in the slow path, they've got a risk of losing out on all their prestige for that game.
Prestige / Fame determines what cool gear they can buy. And eventually if they can afford a free raise dead.
Earning 1/2 - 1 prestige and 1/2 and xp per game for a slow progression would keep it more in line / balanced, with the fast progression.
otherwise slow-pokes have a chance of really falling behind on gear, and on prestige to resurrect themselves if something bad chances to happen.
And being that they're playing more adventures, they're exposed to more chances where they might die.
Yes, those are all risks.
It doesn't bother me right now. I've wanted the ability to slow play characters forever, and now I can.
I can see where it might bother some.
I'm somewhat ambivalent about the implementation.
In a future incarnation, it might be worth it if you were to try to rally more voices towards a goal of 1/2 point for first faction mission. 1/2 point for second faction mission. If it's something you feel strongly about.
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Also I believe you may be misunderstanding the wording, based on your question. For a Season 2 mod where the are two Faction missions, you only need to complete 1 of those and the overall mission.
(a|b) + c = 1 PA
not
(a&b) + c = 1 PA
I think you are mistaken here, Mark. For season 1/2 scenarios, one of the Faction Missions is treated as if it were the overall mission.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Also I believe you may be misunderstanding the wording, based on your question. For a Season 2 mod where the are two Faction missions, you only need to complete 1 of those and the overall mission.
Mark,
I was once in agreement with this, but the weight of converse opinion has dissuaded me. Most everybody else agrees that people playing seasons 1 and 2 earn 1 faction point for the mission, and 1 faction point for completing both missions from the faction leader.
Judging from the discussions on these boards, I think that's the common perception. (For example, the "what do we do when we're good aligned and one of our faction missions in a Season 1 mod is to murder a particular NPC?" thread: nobody suggests "just do the other faction mission".)
I think you are mistaken here, Mark. For season 1/2 scenarios, one of the Faction Missions is treated as if it were the overall mission.Also I believe you may be misunderstanding the wording, based on your question. For a Season 2 mod where the are two Faction missions, you only need to complete 1 of those and the overall mission.
(a|b) + c = 1 PA
not
(a&b) + c = 1 PA
Not what the Guide says:
A character on the slow advancement track can
earn only 1 Prestige Point, and must succeed at both her
faction mission and the scenario’s success condition to
earn such.
Or are you saying that the character need only accomplish the overall scenario mission and one of the faction missions?
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Or are you saying that the character need only accomplish the overall scenario mission and one of the faction missions?
So it is (a&b) + c = 1 PP?
*looks for his pdf*
Taking this wording in a vacuum:
A character on the slow advancement track can earn only 1 Prestige Point, and must succeed at both her faction mission and the scenario’s success condition to earn such.
If it were 'faction missions' I'd see it as (a&b) + c, but as 'faction mission' that's (a|b) + c to me.
Developer
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For seasons 1 and 2 the confusion arises from the success condition clause of PP.
The new guide calls for one PP for success and one for your mission.
It goes on to call out seasons 1 and 2, saying that one of the existing missions is treated as the success condition PP, and the other as the mission PP.
It's confusing wording, but what it means is that seasons 1 and 2 are treated the same as they've ever been for prestige.
The "success condition" award is just one of the missions they're handed. It doesn't matter which, since both have the same prestige value.
Basically since the language in the guide shifted to mission+success they had to shoe-horn the old system in. The way this was done was to change what "success condition" means for old missions. It means one of your 2 faction missions.
I'm not a huge fan of this language, as it is obviously confusing, but really including mission success going forward wasn't going to fit perfectly with old stuff, so I see why it happened.
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I think you are mistaken here, Mark. For season 1/2 scenarios, one of the Faction Missions is treated as if it were the overall mission.Not what the Guide says:
A character on the slow advancement track can
earn only 1 Prestige Point, and must succeed at both her
faction mission and the scenario’s success condition to
earn such.Or are you saying that the character need only accomplish the overall scenario mission and one of the faction missions?
Nope.
I'm referring to:
Seasons 1&2
These scenarios all include 2 faction missions. For characters using the Standard advancement track, one of these should be considered the faction mission and the other the success missionfor the scenario, maintaining the 2 Prestige Point maximum.
... and the subsequent Slow advancement track section
Didn't have access to my pdf, so apologies for typos.
While the text calls out the Standard track, the fact that one of the missions replaces the success condition carries over.
I think you are mistaken here, Mark. For season 1/2 scenarios, one of the Faction Missions is treated as if it were the overall mission.Not what the Guide says:
A character on the slow advancement track can
earn only 1 Prestige Point, and must succeed at both her
faction mission and the scenario’s success condition to
earn such.Or are you saying that the character need only accomplish the overall scenario mission and one of the faction missions?
Nope.
I'm referring to:
Seasons 1&2
These scenarios all include 2 faction missions. For characters using the Standard advancement track, one of these should be considered the faction mission and the other the success missionfor the scenario, maintaining the 2 Prestige Point maximum.... and the subsequent Slow advancement track section
Didn't have access to my pdf, so apologies for typos.
While the text calls out the Standard track, the fact that one of the missions replaces the success condition carries over.
Ah. Good find. (They really scattered the rules for that in the Guide.)
So:
Season 0 and Season 3 (and presumably following seasons) will only have 1 faction mission.
If there are 2 faction missions, then GM chooses 1 of them, and this is _the_ faction mission.
The Overall Scenario is always considered to be the second faction mission.
Standard Track - One Faction Mission + Overall Success = 2 Points Possible
Slow Track - One Faction Mission + Overall Success = 1 Point Possible
Agreement?
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Developer
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So:
Season 0 and Season 3 (and presumably following seasons) will only have 1 faction mission.
If there are 2 faction missions, then GM chooses 1 of them, and this is _the_ faction mission.
The Overall Scenario is always considered to be the second faction mission.
Standard Track - One Faction Mission + Overall Success = 2 Points Possible
Slow Track - One Faction Mission + Overall Success = 1 Point Possible
Agreement?
You are right except for the 2 faction mission stuff. If there are two, one is considered the overall success condition (since in 4.0+ you can only get 1 prestige for missions, this is how they got the second mission in).
Actually completing the overall scenario mission doesn't get you prestige in 2 faction mission scenarios... which is where the language trouble arises.
The wording is confusing, but that's what it means when it says
"one of these should be considered the faction mission and the other the success mission for the scenario." Both missions are still the source of prestige, you've just added a fancy name to one so it fits the 4.0 guidelines.
[edit]additional clarity (hopefully)
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Director of Brand Strategy
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If there are 2 faction missions, then GM chooses 1 of them, and this is _the_ faction mission.
Sort of. If there are two faction missions, 1 is consider the faction mission and the other is considered the success conditions. Since Season 1 & 2 scenarios don't call out Success Conditions, but do call out two faction missions, this is a way to eliminate table variation when one GM interprets the unstated success conditions from the overall scenario differently than another. Season 0 scenarios with 1 faction mission and no declared success conditions will have the success conditions added when they are converted to PFRPG.
Normal Progression
Scenario w/ 2 faction mission and no Success Conditions: In this case, it doesn't matter which is considered the "faction" mission and which is considered the "mission" mission. In the end, there are two specific PP available and a PC who completes both missions earns both. The goal is to allow normal progression PCs to earn 2 PP as if they were playing a new scenario.
Scenario w/ 1 faction mission and no Success Conditions: Until these scenarios are updated to PFRPG and have success conditions specifically listed, GMs will have to interpret the original mission briefing from the venture-captain as the success conditions. The faction mission should be treated the same way a faction mission would in a Season 3 scenario.
Slow Progression
Scenario w/ 2 faction missions and no Success Conditions: Because a slow progression PC can only earn his 1 PP for completing a scenario if he succeeds at both his faction mission and listed success conditions, it doesn't matter which listed mission in a Season 1 or Season 2 scenario is considered which. In the end, a PC on the slow progression earns half the PP he would have received had he used the normal progression rounded down. That means if he succeeds at 1 mission, he gets 0 PP; if he succeeds at both, he gets 1 PP. Whether those PP are "faction" PP or "overall" PP is irrelevant.
Scenario w/ 1 faction mission and no Success Conditions: In this case, the PC must both complete the scenario as ordered by the venture-captain at the scenario's start, and complete the 1 faction mission given in the scenario. If he only completes the adventure but not the faction mission, he gets no PP. Similarly, if he completes his faction mission but not the scenario, he gets 0 PP.
So! How can we make this clearer in the campaign documentation? Anyone care to take a stab at a concise paragraph explaining how PP works with the slow progression?
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Developer
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So! How can we make this clearer in the campaign documentation? Anyone care to take a stab at a concise paragraph explaining how PP works with the slow progression?
It'd hardly be fair for me to criticize and not give it a go myself. I'll list the original text in a spoiler followed by my revised ideas.
Anyone critiquing me, be brutal; tear my text apart. I can handle it. Anything to make the game better.I like this, and it's clear for everything going forward. I would add one thing here to indicate that older missions are a bit different, though, so people reading this note it here.
"A scenario provides a potential 2 Prestige Points for a character to earn over the course of the adventure. One of these is usual tied to the completion of the overall mission for all Pathfinders, and is outlined in the “Success Conditions” section of the adventure (except in some earlier season games, see page 25). The second Prestige Point is gained when a Pathfinder completes his faction specific mission, as outlined in the “Faction Missions” section of the adventure."
It's a minor change, but some GMs might otherwise miss the Adapting Previous Seasons section.
Seasons 1 & 2 (Scenarios #29–#56 and #2–01–#2–26):
These scenarios all include two faction missions. For characters using the standard advancement track, one of these should be considered the faction mission and the other the success condition for the scenario, maintaining the 2 Prestige Point maximum.
Here's where more confusion arises. The success condition line throws people off, I think, so I would say up front that the two faction missions are the only sources of prestige. You can still leave in the language about treating one as a success condition, but it needs to follow that statement.
"If a Season 0 scenario has two faction missions per faction, each mission is a source of Prestige. To keep to the 2 Prestige Point maximum, though, do not award a prestige point for success in the overall mission, instead simply treat one of the faction missions as the "success condition" for the scenario.
Seasons 1 & 2 (Scenarios #29–#56 and #2–01–#2–26):
These scenarios all include two faction missions. Each mission is a source of Prestige. To keep to the 2 Prestige Point maximum, though, do not award a prestige point for success in the overall mission, instead simply treat one of the faction missions as the "success condition" for the scenario."
That's my thinking. Does that make this clearer, or have I muddled it worse with my proposed changes?
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Mark i think that spells it out pretty succinctly for the society guide.
my only question is still: any reason you're allowing half experience, but not half prestige?
seems like it would be less paperwork to allow slow progression PCs to earn 1/2 a prestige point. you're not rounding down their experience.
just be clear that they can only spend prestige in whole # incriments and round down for determining what can be done with Fame. Am i the only one that doesn't mind math?
But it does offer half prestige, it is just that the potential total prestige is not a set number like XP. On normal progression you can potentially earn 2 PP, on slow progression you can potentially earn 1 PP. That is half, just like the XP and gold. But I do understand what you are talking about. On normal you can earn 0, 1, or 2 PP. On slow you can earn 0 or 1, but not 1/2. Basically, slow offers half the max that can be earned on normal, even though that means that the type of player that would earn only 1 PP every scenario on normal will likely earn 0 PP on slow, rather than 1/2 PP. Slow penalizes the more casual player more than normal does.
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So, can a slow path PC play in a module? And then they get to earn 1 or 2 PP, modules cap PP at a minimum of 1 PP; and 1/2 or 1 minimum XP? And a maximum of 2 PP and 1.5 XP.
Also, this brings up, as briefly mentioned in another thread, XP past that needed for your next level.
So, in order, some questions:
Can a PC on the slow track play a module, or are they limited to scenarios?
That would bypass a bunch of the issues in the following questions, but limit slow track PCs a bit.
If a PC plays a module and gains more XP than needed to go to the next level, do they gain the extra XP, or does their XP cap at that needed for the next level?
If it does not cap, can they gain the XP needed for next level, and then take the rest of the XP at a different rate? Can they choose to switch from normal to slow, or slow to normal, if they gain more XP than needed to get their next level while playing a module, and do they add that extra XP at the correct pace for the next track?
I would assume that, if this is possible, that PP and gold acquired would also need to be pro-rated for changing tracks.
That starts to get into the ugly stick zone, though. :(
From thinking about this potential mess, I gotta say that, IMO, the easiest way to handle it is that PCs can only play in a module if they are either retired, or at the start of a new level (no extra XP) that they are playing at the normal track progression. Or, if not at the start of a level, that they need to continue the same progression track for the next level if they gain enough XP to level from the module.
I think I just hurt my head on this. Eep. Hope my question(s) make sense.
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Ahh, just realized why they can't record earning 0.5 prestige in an advenutre: the tracking system for reporting adventures is probably set up to only accept whole numbers. for them to start accepting fractions, they'd have to change some data types on the storage tables, and maybe some of the validation. buncha work.
makes it easier for tracking purposes, when you record PCs that are on slow and regular at the same session, to put either 0, 1 or 2 in the box for them.