I am confused, you want to give a spell a CR? Sure the spell creates something that can attack etc but it is still a spell.
I think I see where you are going...
It calls into being something that has 50% HD of some other thing up to caster HD. SO I would say that if you want to assign CR to the something a CR of 50% of its usual CR. Most monsters etc have abilities that are tied to their HD so all of that stuff is reduced.
I would go with a 50% reduction in CR for the 50% reduction in HD, BAB, skills, feats.
However, I would not award any XP for said encounter with simulacrum. Why? Because it is a part of the spellcaster and should be treated as such. The mage has to pump in a large amount of gp, XP and time to create the simulacrum. Defeating the mage earns the XP not defeating the simulacrum.
igi
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'm going to punt by pointing you to the adventure "Headless." This is a really lousy punt because I don't remember what issue of Dungeon it was in, but it involved a caster w/multiple simulacrums running around and a simulacrum dragon. Maybe there's someone out there w/a handy copy that can tell you more...
Creative Director
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I'm going to punt by pointing you to the adventure "Headless." This is a really lousy punt because I don't remember what issue of Dungeon it was in, but it involved a caster w/multiple simulacrums running around and a simulacrum dragon. Maybe there's someone out there w/a handy copy that can tell you more...
"Headless" was in Dungeon #89.
In writing that adventure, I ended up just manually assigning CRs to the simulacrum monsters; you can't really just apply a blanket –4 CR to all simulacrum, really.
A 50% reduction in CR wouldn't quite be right. For example, the simulacrum of a great red wyrm (40-HD, CR 26) would have 20-HD if a simulacrum copy was made. It would still have DR 20/magic, a breath weapon which deals 24d10 damage, and 19th level-sorcerer abilities. Using half the original CR would make it CR 13, which would be overpowering.
Returning to my original post, subtracting 10 from the CR (-1 per 2 dragon HD, because it's minus 20 HD) would make it CR 16. Does that make my original post more clear?
What you suggest may sound reasonable but I beg to differ with some of your stats for the dragon.
The spell stipulates that all stats associated with HD are reduced. This includes such things as breath weapons and DR (although IMO there is no difference b/n 5/magic and 200/magic if you have a +1 weapon - which people running up against a 20th level wizard should have).So my take on the spell is that the wizard creates an adult red dragon (20HD) but it looks like a great wyrm.
I still argue that assigning a CR is meaningless unless you are handing out XP and that you should not me handing out XP for defeating a spell.
Take my extreme analogies: there is a 20th level, invisible, flying sorc who pelts the party at max range with fireballs and then runs away. Do you award XP for the encounter? I wouldn't, they did not really come to grips with the sorc.
Likewise I don't award XP for PCs who kill summoned monsters or PCs who kill summoned planar allies or bound planar creatures. Because this is part of the mages spells and he pays for their services with XP +/- gp.
igi
Hmmm! Sounds like a question for the sage. I tried to convert Headless from 3 to 3.5 and got completely wrapped around the axle trying to figure out how to re-stat the simulacra in it.
It's been a while and I don't remember the details, but one of the things that got me was how to deal with the disparity between the simulacrum dragon's size (looks exactly like the original) and its stats (do you just use the stats for a normal dragon of the appropriate hit dice--i.e. looks like a great wyrm, maneuvers, fights, and casts like an adult? Or do you take the adult stats and then advance them based on the creature's much larger size (e.g. higher strength, lower dexterity, lower maneuverability, natural weapon sizes and damage ranges increase, etc.) using the formulae in the MM?
I ran into similar problems with the four simulacra the villainess created of herself--she had ranks in a prestige class. Do you take away the prestige class levels first? Do you halve her levels in each class, thereby making it so that the simulacrum has levels in a PrC that it wouldn't be eligible for based on its other class levels?
I really think the procedures for statting up a simulacrum need to be more specifically addressed in the spell description, they way they are for polymorph.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I still argue that assigning a CR is meaningless unless you are handing out XP and that you should not me handing out XP for defeating a spell.
Take my extreme analogies: there is a 20th level, invisible, flying sorc who pelts the party at max range with fireballs and then runs away. Do you award XP for the encounter? I wouldn't, they did not really come to grips with the sorc.
Likewise I don't award XP for PCs who kill summoned monsters or PCs who kill summoned planar allies or bound planar creatures. Because this is part of the mages spells and he pays for their services with XP +/- gp.igi
Although I generally agree, I don't think there is a bright line rule that you can draw. You could just as easily stretch that analogy the other direction. Do you award xp for a glyph of warding? How about a trap that triggers a fireball as a one time effect? Isn't that just a spell effect? What about a wand or other magical equipment that bumps up a creature's CR? There are a lot of instances of mere spell effects that grant xp, it really depends on the context of the encounter. What if you whupped the sorcerer's butt in your example but he escaped. You encounter (and beat) him later, fully recharged and ready to fight. Do you get xp for the first fight? How about the second fight?
Although I generally agree, I don't think there is a bright line rule that you can draw. You could just as easily stretch that analogy the other direction. Do you award xp for a glyph of warding? How about a trap that triggers a fireball as a one time effect? Isn't that just a spell effect? What about a wand or other magical equipment that bumps up a creature's CR? There are a lot of instances of mere spell effects that grant xp, it really depends on the context of the encounter. What if you whupped the sorcerer's butt in your example but he escaped. You encounter (and beat) him later, fully recharged and ready to fight. Do you get xp for the first fight? How about the second fight?
Mmmm I conceed the point - it can be hard to adjudicate. Personally I do not award XP for glyphs if the caster is around, I don't award extra XP for magic traps if the caster is around but I do award XP for overcoming the trap (rather than the spell).
And as for that pesky sorc, what I usually do (if I plan on the sorc coming back) is award 50% XP for the first encounter and then when they overcome the sorc I award the rest of the XP.And stuff that buffs monsters? Well I usually only buff a monster with stuff that could be considered part of its equipment (i.e. treasure) and IMO that does not raise the CR sufficiently to warrent extra XP.
Anyway I agree that it is a grey area and perhaps my initial stance was a little too rigid.
Oh here is something else to consider, using the existing example of a 20th level caster creating a 20HD dragon from a 40HD dragon. The 20HD dragon is CR 14(ish); the mage creating such a simulacrum is a CR 20. If the encounters are balanced, i.e. the PCs are capable of taking on the CR 20 mage, then the 20HD dragon does not really present a significant challenge (750 XP) so why even bother worrying about its CR?
Again I am probably taking an extreme stance, but there you have it.
igi
Since simalucra are effectively permanent creations until destroyed a wizard could create several simalucra to face the PCs weeks or months before he faces them in combat himself. In these circumstances not giving out XP for an encounter against a simalucrum is just mean. Simalucra are good because they are completely loyal to the spellcaster who created them, can act idependently (to a point) and are a great way of throwing powerful monsters at a less powerful party (such as 7 HD frost giants at a 7th-level party). It also means that the PCs can fight the wizard or sorcerer more than once (the wizard's simalucrum and then the wizard himself).
As for adjudicating CRs for simalucrums, I'd follow James's advice. Figuring out CRs is really a hit and miss thing, and even great designers like James have to wing it when assigning such things. Indeed, if you ever read Book of Challenges you will see that reducing CRs is harder than increasing CRs (or that's what the designers say anyhow).
I haven't gone over to the thread to look, but this topic should really by dropped into the article request thread for Dragon magazine. And I agree. I would really like to see a detailed article providing not only the formula for creating accurate simalacra, but perhaps several examples of creative uses of the spell.
To answer Peruhain of Brithondy’s questions, a simulacra of a great red wyrm has the stats of a great red wyrm, with all the benefits thereof, minus 20 HD (for purposes of hp, Base Attack Bonus, and base saves). The simulacras of the old white dragon in “Headless?is an illustration of this. A great red wyrm simulacra is NOT an adult red dragon that looks like a great red wyrm. You still have to work out the number of skill ranks of the original dragon though (so that they can be halved); remember that a dragon’s Intelligence rises over age categories, which can be a real hassle.
Thanks. Does this mean the damage and DC for the breath weapon stays the same? How about the AC? Spellcasting abilities? These were the things that screwed me up when I was trying to retool the adventure to 3.5 (and a 14th level party--trying to use it as a follow-on to the recent Istivin arc).
P.S. I just thought of another adventure using simulacra--a short adventure in the back of Frostburn.