Yes I would like the Runestone and Rod. I also think it would be a very bad idea to sell a present from the queen of summer.
Go ahead and take the robe.
At the start of each day, Mr. Whiskers casts Mage Armor on himself. If we can get past this problem with Crummock going evil, perhaps Mr. Whiskers could use the other Runestone for a Mage Armor on Crummock. I was actually going to suggest it in character before you pulled that stunt.
Yes, capturing a soul to torment it and creating undead is a problem.
The wand is likely one of Ice Spears. I don't mind if we sell that.
It is wand of ice spears. 9 charges left. Tell me when ye ready to move on.
Oh, I agree - I think it would definitely be a bad idea to try and sell those items.
I would not say that Crummock has 'gone evil' - more like taken some extreme actions to deal with what he saw as an impossible situation, involving irredeemable evil.
(Hence why I had a *Scroll* of Animate Dead, and was not casting it myself.)
For the record, technically, the spell makes no comment on *actual* torment being involved - that was just a little artistic license on my part.
Rest assured, this is not the sort of trick I intend to pull often.
Do I see all of this as possibly making Crummock a bit more bitter and twisted? Maybe. Do I see him flipping over into full-on Evil (TM) mode? Absolutely not. Crummock still has a personal code/list, and protecting those too weak to protect themselves (especially children!) is still at the top of that list.
Crummock - what spell did you use for the owl.
Headed out for a couple of hours.
Go ahead and use either Burning Hands or Molten Orb to ignite the fire. Whichever would work best in terms of time, effectiveness and respectfulness. Molten Orb would certainly create the hotter fire!
Crummock, sorry, we need to RP this part out abit. Otherwise Einar might try to get you a new rimepelt...
No dramas. Einar hasn't really expressed how much he dislikes the Earl (to Crummock, at least), so I thought I would make the offer.
Sorry, you need to handle your Winterwolf problem before you enter the Hut. Or the Hut will deal with it for you, and you won't like the result :(
Sure. I'm more chill about what most people call evil then most GMs. For me, it is - do the ends justify the means? Ok, we're cool.
Now you know why I don't play paladins?
I also believe in Good is not nice
I'm aware Oracles do not have that restriction GM.
Yes, he can cast evil spells
Yes, its still an evil act
Yes, its going to have impacts on his alignment.
It makes little logical sense for Hirah to have issues summoning evil creatures, and then have an Oracle creating undead and creating Soul Gems. Yes, there are penalties for one (inquis) and not the other (oracle), but if you are handwaving evil acts affecting alignment - then it looks weird as heck optics wise.
On the topic of evil spells:
It really depends on how you want to run your game.
In Pathfinder, good and evil are quantifiable quantities. Technically so are law and chaos. There are objects that are composed of pure evil and spells where even casting them is an evil act. Although it is true Crummock is an Oracle so a god will not take away his spells, that doesn't change the normal rules with respect to casting evil spells.
Since you mentioned PFS, they specifically changed those rules. They will allow you to cast evil spells without it being an alignment infraction. There would still be a warning for what Crummock just did. If he did it anyways, there would be a discussion with the event host and potentially local venture officers as to if this was enough to qualify as making him evil.
Look at the spells in Pathfinder. The lowly Detect Evil allows you to measure strong sources of evil. The celestial sorcerer bloodline power of Heavenly Fire will do different things based on alignment. The Holy Smite spell harms any character that is not good.
It isn't a philosophical debate. You can demonstrate that good and evil exist. There is even the phylactery of faithfulness that will allow you to know if something you are considering would be naughty in your god's sight.
On the topic of infernal healing, evil has a huge advantage there. That doesn't mean the spell isn't evil -- you are anointing yourself with devil's blood or unholy water! I see it as a temptation, make people think it is safe to do. How many tiefling children are born because they used infernal healing to help keep the mother alive? It is well established that contact with devils can cause infernal bloodline sorcerers and other things.
I've got characters that refuse Infernal Healing, some that will accept it, and one pair with Hilary that naively says "Zarta assured us it is perfectly safe!" when it comes to that spell.
Now I know that some GMs prefer "shades of grey", where it is a matter of philosophical discussion if something is good or evil. That isn't the default Pathfinder setting. You can do things to get there, Pathfinder Unchained has a whole section about removing alignment. The thing is you have to tell us if you are doing that. The default assumption is that good and evil are quantifiable things.
I think my entire lodge should have to go for atonement. Lol. They're very fond of that infernal healing wand. Me included ;)
I don't really believe in spells making you evil. Torturing people for sh*ts and giggles, sacking the town for your own personal gain, sure, evil. Magic? No. Neither good nor evil. It's to what end its put to.
Well, except for Vile Dog Transformation. Even so, if you actually talked to the animal in question, explain what was entailed, and the animal agreed to it, I'd just handwave it off.
You can declare that magic is just a weapon, but that isn't the Pathfinder rules.
Summon a creature with a fiendish template, the spell is evil. Any casting of Align Weapon has the alignment appropriate to it. Dispel Good/Law/Chaos/Evil are all very strongly aligned. Symbol of Pain tortures the victims.
If you don't want to deal in this stuff, then you probably should have mentioned it.
Edit to add:
Again, what kind of morality were you expecting from a nethys worshiping leopard?
You keep saying you are a Lawful Neutral GM.
So be lawful. Tell us when you have changed the default rules. Ignoring this stuff is a pretty big deal, especially when you made my character into someone who is completely wrong about the thing he is an expert in -- Magic.
Spells generally have no alignment infractions then. (But please don't go around raising an undead army. That will have an infraction).
To be honest, Ive always lived with no alignment infractions for that long that I never realized it wasn't the default.
You see the whole argument about spells having alignment infractions is pretty silly. All you need to do to get rid of the bad effects of an evil spell is cast protection from evil several times over.
I don't really believe in spells making you evil. Torturing people for sh*ts and giggles, sacking the town for your own personal gain, sure, evil. Magic? No. Neither good nor evil. It's to what end its put to.
Then this is a big thing, because this is partly why Crummock is casting the same spell - in retaliation for soulbound puppet etc. Granted, I'm sure that there are other reasons as well, but this would still be one major reason.
If spells don't make you evil, Crummock loses an argument for resorting to such an extreme revenge in the first palce - because he can no longer blame the Winter Witch for creating that creepy soulbound puppet because "its magic so its not evil".
Spells generally have no alignment infractions then.
Great, so I can summon evil creatures then and its all K?[
No because inquisitors are still attached with gods and stuff. Try on an oracle/shaman, then do whatever. Or an arcane caster may do the summoning.
However the act of killing Thora to create a soulbound puppet was an evil act.
With regard to the doll, I don't blame the witch for the creation of the doll, per se; what I blame them for is the *manner* in which they chose to do it - by blatantly torturing a terrified little girl.
If, on the other hand, they had had someone's permission to use their soul to create such a doll, Crummock would not have had an issue with it.
Generally, I view magic as a tool (well, with certain exceptions, such as pretty much anything with the 'Pain' descriptor, although even then, if it is between consenting worshippers of, say, Zon-Kuthon (who might be Lawful Neutral, not Evil), it would be cause for a raised eyebrow, but nothing more).
At higher levels, once we have access to Flesh to Stone, I would consider that (plus access to an adamantine earthbreaker to render the stone into (still technically alive) dust) to be a viable alternative (with the added advantage that it does not have the Evil descriptor, although it achieves essentially the same thing), but unfortunately, that wasn't an option at this time.
Also, part of the reason that I deliberately selected an Oracle was so that I did *not* have a deity-enforced restriction on casting certain spells.
Do I acknowledge that the spells used were technically evil?
Yes.
Do I feel that using them was justified, based on the magnitude of the crimes involved?
Definitely.
Are they a combination of spells that I intend to use again?
Highly unlikely, unless we come across something of a similar magnitude of evil involving the abuse of children.
Most magic is a tool. There really aren't that many spells with an alignment descriptor.
The ones with an alignment descriptor are pretty significant though. They are the exception.
Capturing someone's soul in a gem, thereby preventing them from potentially ever reaching the afterlife? Sounds pretty nasty to me.
Corrupting someone's body via animate dead, so it now takes much more powerful magic in order to raise them from the dead? Once again, pretty nasty. The animate body isn't just a puppet, it is something animated by evil. Look at all the negative channelling stuff. The rules assume undead is evil.
---
So, are you making Einar correct all along (magic is just a tool) and Mr. Whiskers a fool?
I would really like to know since all my character's interactions with him on this topic have been based on the assumption you were following the normal rules.
So, are you making Einar correct all along (magic is just a tool) and Mr. Whiskers a fool?
I would really like to know since all my character's interactions with him on this topic have been based on the assumption you were following the normal rules.
eeerrrrkkkk, that would be a pity, the world would be a sadder place if Einar starts being right about stuff. He's a bit of a cynic. He has to justify being neutral and his parents (at least one of them) being evil.
No because inquisitors are still attached with gods and stuff.
But you just made a sweeping generalization that spells don't have alignment infractions, ie the very thing that prevents me from summoning evil creatures (because, you know, summoning an evil creature is evil).
I'm not actually trying to bully you into letting me summon evil creatures, I'm pointing out its a clear double standard based on how you are handling alignment.
*Scratches head at the fuss*
Yeah in a certain way I don’t really understand what the problem is about. I personally felt that all the alignment tagged to magic stuff was really silly, since all you need to do is spam things with the (good) descriptor and any potential alignment infraction would just go poof. Or Burst of radiance which is a pretty nice debuff spell for those non glitterdust users. Does casting all that stuff make a character good aligned, then? If it does, then that’s pretty wtf?
It is not my intention to make people upset or whatsoever, I generally go with, freedom as players to do whatever you want. As long as the rules do not forbid the casting of a spell, I don’t bother too much about it.
At the end of it, I don’t want to restrict players from doing what they want. So what would you want me to rule it as? Crummock probably won’t be casting that stuff very often anyway.
Id put it as divine casters worshiping a god, because god didn't let you summon those creatures, because he/she doesn't like them.
No-one really has a problem with Crummock casting the spells (well, besides the fact that its using evil spells).
What *I* have a problem with, is casting evil spells and then going around with no alignment repercussions whatsoever. If what the witch did to the little girl is considered 'evil", or "torture" - then what Crummock just did is virtually identical. Why does Crummock get a free pass?
Of course, what makes this difficult is
Divine Fighting Technique
Prerequisite(s): Same alignment as chosen deity.
If Crummock shifts alignment one step, then his technique gets cut out which is lame and unfair and I don't like it, but its how the feat is written. On the other hand, what he is actually doing, is in no way how a CG creature actually acts or responds. Sure, he can cast evil spells with no ill effects by being an Oracle, but being an Oracle does not allow you to to ignore the morality of your actions.
Something's kinda gotta give.
There’s a difference in taking someone blameless and doing it to them, as opposed to punishing someone for what they’ve done.
What was done to Thora (according to the GM) involved a ritual that took several hours of ongoing torture.
Crummock simply used six seconds to pull the witch's soul into a gem, as punishment for what she did - not quite 'eye for an eye', but as close as Crummock was comfortable doing.
Not quite the same.
If Crummock had actually researched and gone through with the 'Doll' ritual on the Witch? Definitely an irredeemably Evil act, which should result in an alignment shift.
----
Clerics and Inquisitors explicitly have (in the class description) a line the states they can't cast spells of a diametrically opposed alignment.
Since Hirah worships Gorum (CN)*, casting 'Evil' spells are not forbidden.
*I am unclear on this, though, since in one spot, her stat block says Gorum, but in another it says Arshea (NG).
Its acutely a mistake on Hirah's character sheet. I told her specifically not to worship Gorum, but herolabs does not allow that. She's actually worshipping Arshea. But since we know about the issue, doesn't really bother me.
Crummock I *am* *aware* of this line. What you seem to be missing is
Evil: Spells that draw upon evil powers or conjure creatures from evil-aligned planes or with the evil subtype should have the evil descriptor. Casting an evil spell is an evil act.
No-one here is advocating that you instantly drop to Chaotic Evil, or even Neutral Evil, or like, any evil. What I'm saying is that your behaviors is not the behavior of someone claiming to be Chaotic Good. GM Mort, on the other hand, seems that such behavior *is* chaotic good. I disagree.
Like, if you want to make an argument that creating soul gems, and creating undead is a good act then fine, but i think you might be in a minority there.
It won't be an evil act and for the purposes of alignment issues it doesn’t make a difference. Whether it’s a good act or not…I don’t really care going into an alignment debate. Forumites have tried and nothing good has ever come out of it.
If you were CG, you’d need to commit an evil act your alignment to CN. Committing a neutral act just leaves your alignment still as CG.
Ummm... In no way did I suggest that it was a good act; in fact, I explicitly stated above that I acknowledged that it was evil (albeit evil conducted in the pursuit of a (to his mind) just cause).
We are not paladins here; simply casting a few evil spells is not enough to cause someone to 'fall'.
That said, if you *want* me to 'fall', I will.
To be honest, I don’t want you to fall because I know better than most that you have the stomach to commit more atrocities then the entire party put together. Don’t ask what they both did…
And to be honest whether a character gets any alignment shift or not is up to the GM, and the GM in this case doesn’t feel there is a need for any.
If you were CG, you’d need to commit an evil act your alignment to CN.
Ummm... In no way did I suggest that it was a good act; in fact, I explicitly stated above that I acknowledged that it was evil
There: Evil.
That said, I really truly honestly don't *want* Crummock to fall, I just don't want him doing it again, because every time he does it, it creates a massive issue with Hirah (who is NG and who has a deity that really wouldn't approve of whats happening), as well as being a massive slap in her face.
It also creates stupid situations where we could massacre an entire village, or use someone (like a trusty NPC) as a disposable sacrifice in the greater good, and still ping as a good act.
I'm leaving Mr Whiskers out of this because I don't really want to speak for him on this topic, I'm just mentioning how Hirah feels.
I suggest you two sort it out IC.
We can, but it *will* come to blows if Crummock starts desecrating the dead again (which, whether or not he sees it that way, is how Hirah sees it).
He can cast stuff like Flesh to Stone, Enervation, Disintegrate, I don't care, when you play with Animate Dead / Create Soul Gem (especially Create Soul Gem, something daemons are pretty big on), its a line crossed.
Oh believe me...if you were going to do something like that..I'd warn you before shifting your alignments.
Won't retcon stuff.
Right. We need to sort:
1) Do you really want me to put an alignment infraction on EVERY spell?
Votes please. If yes, then get voting.
Note that multiple casts of protection from evil, should fix alignment back if taken things RAW?
I want Crummock staying CG. Even if I was GM, I'd keep him CG (because making him fall for this is a dick move).
That said, I'd prefer it if it didn't happen much again, or alternatively do it but don't claim a CG - go NG or something.
Keep the alignment infractions on spells as they are, don't randomly make Flesh to Stone (or whatever), evil.
@Hirah: I think you might be quoting the GM *slightly* out of context - an evil act for a good end was being described as neutral, and therefore as having no impact on alignment.
@GM Mort: Actually, RAW, I believe only Evil descriptor spells explicitly state that they can impact on your alignment; the others are not mentioned. Whether this is an oversight or not, I can't comment.
I would rather *not* have this AP descend into a Joe Abercrombie special, but believe me, I can work with it if we do!
I don't see how I'm misquoting, how he typed it, is exactly how it looks.
Again, this issue only becomes an issue if Crummock insists on wanting to do his combination again. If he doesn't - there is no problem, if he does, how are we going to handle it? I can give him stern words this time, but if it happens again next time, then its unfair to force Hirah to turn a blind eye to something that is deeply against her code, purely so that someone can use a feat they like.
Yeah you're right about the evil descriptor. I seriously wonder why it doesn't go both ways, re good spells.
I would also not have this mod turn into a bloodbath.
(Though I'll admit I was prepared to run it as one at one point).
It won't be an evil act and for the purposes of alignment issues it doesn’t make a difference - re: Crummocks actions of creating soul gems and making undead out of winter witches.
Creating evil is like THE big evil thing in pathfinder.
Don't say its not evil, its pretty much universally acknowledged to be an evil act. By all means, claim that it doesn't shift alignment, but don't claim that its not evil.
Either way, I'm saying how it is, stern words to Crummock this time around, and if it happens again, Hirah's going to react more severely. Desecration is a big no no.
Female winter wolf lorewarden 1
AC 18, touch 11, flat-footed 16; Speed 50 ft.;
Hp 67(7HD, 6d10+10+29)
Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +4
Melee bite +10 (1d8+6 plus 1d6 cold and trip); Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.;
Special Attacks breath weapon (6d6 cold, ref 17 halves usable every 1d4 rounds);
CMB +12; CMD 24 (28 vs. trip);
STATISTICS Str 18, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 14
Base Atk +7; CMB +11; CMD 23
Feats Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Skill Focus (Perception), Narrow frame
Skills Linguistics +5, Perception +12, Sense Motive +6, Stealth +8(+14 in snow),Survival +8, Profession (Guard)+6, Profession (cook) +6, Knowledge local +5, Knowledge Geography +5, knowledge Engineering +5, Knowledge religion +5, Knowledge planes +5, Knowledge arcana +5, knowledge nature +5, knowledge dungeoneering +5, knowledge nobility +5, knowledge history +5, intimidate +6, Escape artist +3
Gear
Signal whistle, pathfinder chronicles for all knowledges, one potion of CMW, saddle bags
I have never said it was not Evil.
My standpoint is that it was justifiable Evil, given the circumstances.
Being 'Good' doesn't mean never straying from the path; after all, to be mortal is to err. The important thing is to strive, on sum, to do far more good, than evil. Only paladins are held to a higher standard, and should expect serious repercussions if they ever perform an evil act.
Also, frankly, Crummock has known Hirah for all of a couple of days, and for most of that, she was a mercenary in the employ of rebels; he really doesn't care what she thinks of him.
That said, I am not going to deliberately try and antagonise her.