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"not enough options" is pretty much the game's mantra unfortunately. Paizo is very reluctant to publish much for anyone.
That said I do have to agree that the druid in general feels kind of dated design wise. It's not a bad class, but the things that make it appealing are very passive and incidental
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I'm honestly more perplexed that we have essentially three different variations of plant druid but we still don't have anything resembling a Winter/Tundra Druid or a Desert Druid.
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I would only enjoy new druid types if they were competitive with storm, animal, and untamed form.
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20 out of 100 druid feats are wild shape feats, I think its probably the most fleshed out kind of druid there currently is. idk if adding more options for that playstyle is a good idea.It’s a pretty solid class with a lot of options. Not sure it needs much love
What I’d really like to see is a shifter. One possibility for this would be a Druid who really concentrated on wild shape, presumably losing considerable spell casting power in turn
You're probably quite right. I just love that particular playstyle :-) :-)
Shifter should definitely be its own class. With Constitution as its KAS.
Ah, don't worry about an accuracy stat because you will just use battle form accuracy instead?
I was more thinking thematically actually. The Shifter is putting their body under serious stress.Shifter should definitely be its own class. With Constitution as its KAS.Ah, don't worry about an accuracy stat because you will just use battle form accuracy instead?
"Martial with a non-accuracy stat" can work just fine, but "martial with a non-accuracy stat that doesn't help with any skills" is the worst of both worlds.
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Shifter should definitely be its own class. With Constitution as its KAS.Ah, don't worry about an accuracy stat because you will just use battle form accuracy instead?
To be viable any shifter has to have normal martial proficiency and use its wild shapes for damage and cool effects. The battle form accuracy is just not good enough.
Balancing the shifter with both the druid/animist in one direction and the monk/fighter/barbarian in the other isn't going to be at all trivial. Likely one of the reasons we haven't seen one yet.
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"Martial with a non-accuracy stat" can work just fine, but "martial with a non-accuracy stat that doesn't help with any skills" is the worst of both worlds.I was more thinking thematically actually. The Shifter is putting their body under serious stress.Shifter should definitely be its own class. With Constitution as its KAS.Ah, don't worry about an accuracy stat because you will just use battle form accuracy instead?
Kineticist is seen by many as a Martial with some spell-like abilities. It also has CON as KAS.
Kineticist is seen by many as a Martial with some spell-like abilities. It also has CON as KAS."Martial with a non-accuracy stat" can work just fine, but "martial with a non-accuracy stat that doesn't help with any skills" is the worst of both worlds.I was more thinking thematically actually. The Shifter is putting their body under serious stress.Shifter should definitely be its own class. With Constitution as its KAS.Ah, don't worry about an accuracy stat because you will just use battle form accuracy instead?
Yeah, that's part of my point. The playtest resulted in Kineticist getting Con as its accuracy stat and getting skill gate so that it at least has an opportunity to not be behind on all its skills. (I also personally find that the basic kinesis and a utility impulse help take the place of skills a little.)
I think it would be more difficult to justify using Con for accuracy on Shifter. They're going up and swinging limbs at things to hit them, which is pretty solidly Str or Dex territory.
You also have the issue of Shifter not really being able to justify heavy armor, and medium seems iffy. So Dex is probably going to be pretty important. We are heading into Monk problem territory, since Dex being important means Str/Dex or low damage. Adding on Con as KAS seems rough.
It's solvable with very un-PF2 stat substitutions. Con to AC, for example. You can also have the Shifter use some sort of fixed stat while polymorphed, like some standard AC. But it's a lot of work that a more boring Str or Dex primary with 10 HP just avoids.
Don't get me wrong - I think it would be interesting for Shifter to find a way to make Con work for it. I just really don't like the vision I get of a class so heavily locked into combat stats that I can't even consider a Deception-focused shapeshifter, with its features going to make Con work.
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It's solvable with very un-PF2 stat substitutions. Con to AC, for example. You can also have the Shifter use some sort of fixed stat while polymorphed, like some standard AC. But it's a lot of work that a more boring Str or Dex primary with 10 HP just avoids.
The SF2 Soldier gets quite a few things based off its Con. So maybe (MAYBE) Paizo is starting to loosen that particular restriction.
Or, of course, maybe not. Different games, different teams, different balance points. Etc.
Same game though.
And there's stuff like DaS giving you Int to Strikes, Commanders have a feat that gives you int to medicine.
The whole battle form mechanic at its core essentially lets you bypass normal expectations for strength by giving you fixed attack modifiers. I can't think of any subsystem better to maybe play around with substitutions than a system already designed to let you bypass stats.
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The whole battle form mechanic at its core essentially lets you bypass normal expectations for strength by giving you fixed attack modifiers. I can't think of any subsystem better to maybe play around with substitutions than a system already designed to let you bypass stats.
This is only partially the case.
Complicating things is the fact that you CAN use your own stats if they are better. While this is only rarely of any use for a druid it is of significant more use (at lower levels) for martials who have archetyped into druid.
So there are at least 3 balance points. The druid has gone as all in as possible on Str, the druid who ignores or dumps Str, and the martial with the druid dedication.
Further complicating things is the lack of clarity on how exactly wild shape works in terms of what bonuses apply when wild shaped. Depending on the assumptions you make wild shape via druid archetype can be quite powerful right now.
The druid already establishes that "shapechanging isn't especially hard on your body" so I don't think there's a reason to make Con the KAS for a shifter class- if the Druid can change into a sparrow and a hippo and a t. rex without any inherent stress on their body, the class whose thing is "shapeshifting" should be able to do it too.
If anything, you would give it a STR/DEX KAS and some limit based on CON, like how a Monk's Ki Spells have a Wis based DC.
Personally, IMO a PF2e shifter class should be a non-spell martial, with either Str or Dex KAS, that can essentially choose something like the one of the animal instincts for attacks and other benefits like movement types (possibly from an increasing pool of animal types); switching between them each combat or even round to round.
You could also possibly make a ranger class archetype or non-class archetype that gains untamed form, untamed shift, and access to the various druid "form"/"shape" feats; although this feels a bit restrictive to me.