| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My son is playing one and it kind of depends in our experience:
- If the enemy has a weakness you can hit (and bombers can hit a LOT of weaknesses), you're going to be fine. You can easily get good persistent damage and since you can hit that weakness on a miss via splash, you can regularly trigger it multiple times a round.
- If enemies are set up in a way where you can get them with splash, this can also start to add up. It's not caster AoE damage, but it's not nothing.
- It's generally not great against single target encounters without a weakness, but you can use things like Skunk Bomb/Dread Ampoule/Bottled Lightning (and the Debilitating Bomb feat chain) to put up conditions while doing some damage, which is nice.
- If you run out of Ghost Charges or VVs in a fight against incorporeal enemies, it sucks hard because all your quick vials are nonmagical and thus double resistance applies.
In a more general sense:
- Quick Bomber is a must take feat and it makes you extremely mobile. My son's character has Medic Dedication/Doctors Visitation and it's pretty easy for him to heal someone and still make multiple attacks.
- You're still an alchemist, so you can bust out other types of alchemy as needed like numbing tonics/soothing tonics, mutagens, and buff elixirs for the situation. This is very much a "get a big recipie book and make stuff for your party for maximum benefit" class. It can be really clutch when facing things like high level diseases, because the major antiplague is a big gain over your regular equipment and lasts all day.
If your goal is to do pure maximum DPS, it's not really a good class. But it can deliver decent damage while also being able to pull out all kinds of useful items that would cost a LOT of gold to stock, and there's definitely value there.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
11-20 Bomber Alchemist with Free Archetype? That's an interesting idea.
Attributes:
- Str +0
- Dex +4 (partial)
- Con +3
- Int +5
- Wis +3
Alchemist Feats:
- 1st: Quick Bomber
- 2nd: Far Lobber
- 4th: Expanded Alchemy
- 6th: Directional Bombs
- 8th: Sticky Bomb
- 10th: Expanded Splash
Free Archetype Feats:
- 2nd: Investigator Dedication
- 4th: Investigator's Stratagem
- 6th: Basic Deduction for Known Weakness
- 8th: Dual-Weapon Warrior Dedication
- 10th: Dual Thrower
So, 11th level is a good level for Alchemists. Major Bombs and Major Mutagens are available. Bombers get their Special Materials Versatile Vials at this level. I've gotten a lot of mileage out of stuff like Adamantine Fire or Dawnsilver Cold.
As for damage? Well, at 11th, my favourite opener, Acid Flask, is doing 1 pt Acid on a hit, with 10 points of Splash to everything within 10' or in a 15-20' Cone (I love Directional Bombs.) The Persistent Damage to the primary is 3d6+10, and the odds are good it lasts at least three rounds. Alchemist's Fire? 3d8+10 Splash for an average 23 pts on a hit with 13 pts Persistent. Frost Vial? Make the target off-guard for everybody while doing an average of 20 pts Cold (3d6 + 10 Splash.)
With the Free Archetype feats, you can be doing a Free Action Devise to get a sense of how that first Strike is gonna go. Going to miss? Use a free Quick Vial, get the 10 pts of Splash in anyways. Going to Crit? Pick a Bomb that will take advantage of that like a Dread Ampoule or a Glue Bomb.
And with Dual Thrower, if you don't have to move, you can QA two Bombs into your hands and then take advantage of it, getting to throw the 2nd Bomb (probably a Quick Vial) with a MAP of -2 instead of -5.
|
Yeah I think Tridus has the right of it. Alchemist is an unusual class because you kinda get the large number of "spells known" of a wizard combined with the flexibility of a spontaneous caster. But the price you pay for being very adaptable is that you don't hit as hard as some of the more "rigid" classes.
It's also unusual because more than a lot of other classes it really rewards you for reading lots of items and having a big list of "if this happens... use that formula" prepared. Compared to a "barbarian smash!" playstyle, this one is definitely more complicated. So it's a good class if you like having an intricate character, and not so good if you want something low-prep.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks! I really like this! Then what do you recommend for 12-20 feats?
You're welcome, glad you like it! As for higher level Feats, shroudb and I are of similar mind.
Alchemist Feats:
- 12th Level: Uncanny Bombs. Shortbow Range, cover mitigation and auto-success on concealed (for throwing Bombs, at least.) Get rid of those Alchemist Goggles; why bother for just a little Splash on a miss?
- 14th: Dip back for Extend Elixir. 2 hour Quicksilver? Yes please!
- 16th: I lean more towards Advanced Efficient Alchemy (not Expanded, Efficient, oops), because there's no room in my build for Combine Elixirs but shroudb is right: Eternal Elixir is the stronger choice even so. (Eternal + Combine is really, really strong.)
- 18th: Improbable Elixirs all the way. Fly when you need it? Advanced Alchemy Haste? Survive forever on Ration Tonics? Yeah, great Feat.
- 20th: If Core Rulebook is allowed in your campaign, yeah, Perfect Mutagen is fantastic. If not, Mega Bomb is very thematic, and very useful in the right circumstances. While Alchemical Revivication is really cool, I'm not really into a Capstone that may never get used.
As for the Free Archetype stuff: My only really "gotta Take" is Dual Onslaught from Dual Weapon Warrior at 14th. If you miss with both Dual Thrower Bombs... no you didn't! Choose which one actually hit. (Hint: go for the Create Consumable Bomb if you threw one. :) )
Dual Blitz isn't really worth it, IMHO, As you need to use Quick Alchemy to load up your hands, it isn't an action saver Feat. You can just Stride, Quick Bomber, Quick Bomber in any order instead. And for a number of reasons Flensing Strike just doesn't work with Bombs.
I am a fan of Master Spotter (Investigator Archetype 12th) as Alchemists don't get Master Perception without Canny Acumen, later. Also, Skill Mastery (Investigator Archetype again) is a bit complicated, but more Master level Skills is cool. You can spare the Feats to take it a few times (you can take it up to 5.)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm generally a big fan of rogue dedication. Some of the things it gets you as an alchemist:
* Surprise Attack: maybe your Stealth is better than your Perception? Take advantage.
* Mobility feat: a great way to just walk away from monsters with reactive strike.
* Dread Striker feat: one of the simpler ways to get flat-footed for ranged attacks.
* Skill Mastery: one of the few ways in the game to get extra master skills. Take this one multiple times if you like.
* Uncanny Dodge: laugh at minions trying to surround and sneak attack you.
(Rogue dedication is pretty good for all kinds of back line characters.)
I like the idea, but have read since even pre-remaster and beyond that they....... well suck.
Pre-Remaster, low level Bomber Alchemist was one of the few things that I would describe as a trap option. A new player just going for the flavor would grab Quick Bomber, leave all of their Reagents for Quick Alchemy so that they could get the right bomb for the job on the fly... and then run out of their entire daily allotment of Reagents in the first half of the first fight of the day.
But that was fixed in the Remaster. Versatile Vials regenerate, so while you can still run out of them in a particular fight, you get them back similar to spellcasters with their Focus points.
And yes, as others have said, Alchemist - even Bomber Alchemist - is not a top-tier damage dealer. They can certainly contribute damage to a fight, but that isn't their gold star purpose.
|
|
I think the "bomber suck" reaction is a bit similar to "war priests aren't really a full martial" reaction. Alchemist and war priest (cleric doctrine) are both a kind of in-between class where you're not getting the full power of a martial because you're getting so much more flexibility than a typical martial gets.
If you manage to leverage that flexibility into good plays, then it doesn't suck. If you don't manage to really squeeze the juice out of that flexibility, then you look bad compared to a normal martial because your raw numbers aren't going to be as high.
My son is playing one and it kind of depends in our experience:
- If the enemy has a weakness you can hit (and bombers can hit a LOT of weaknesses), you're going to be fine. You can easily get good persistent damage and since you can hit that weakness on a miss via splash, you can regularly trigger it multiple times a round.
- If enemies are set up in a way where you can get them with splash, this can also start to add up. It's not caster AoE damage, but it's not nothing.
- It's generally not great against single target encounters without a weakness, but you can use things like Skunk Bomb/Dread Ampoule/Bottled Lightning (and the Debilitating Bomb feat chain) to put up conditions while doing some damage, which is nice.
- If you run out of Ghost Charges or VVs in a fight against incorporeal enemies, it sucks hard because all your quick vials are nonmagical and thus double resistance applies.In a more general sense:
- Quick Bomber is a must take feat and it makes you extremely mobile. My son's character has Medic Dedication/Doctors Visitation and it's pretty easy for him to heal someone and still make multiple attacks.
- You're still an alchemist, so you can bust out other types of alchemy as needed like numbing tonics/soothing tonics, mutagens, and buff elixirs for the situation. This is very much a "get a big recipie book and make stuff for your party for maximum benefit" class. It can be really clutch when facing things like high level diseases, because the major antiplague is a big gain over your regular equipment and lasts all day.If your goal is to do pure maximum DPS, it's not really a good class. But it can deliver decent damage while also being able to pull out all kinds of useful items that would cost a LOT of gold to stock, and there's definitely value there.
I haven't run the math but at level 11-20 with all the right feats (Quick Bomber, Sticky Bombs, Expanded Splash) the damage seems fairly good between the high persistent and high splash. High Splash means you're doing 10+ damage on a miss, which must do a lot for damage, even on 3rd action attacks.
Thanks! I really like this! Then what do you recommend for 12-20 feats?You're welcome, glad you like it! As for higher level Feats, shroudb and I are of similar mind.
Alchemist Feats:
- 12th Level: Uncanny Bombs. Shortbow Range, cover mitigation and auto-success on concealed (for throwing Bombs, at least.) Get rid of those Alchemist Goggles; why bother for just a little Splash on a miss?
- 14th: Dip back for Extend Elixir. 2 hour Quicksilver? Yes please!
- 16th: I lean more towards Advanced Efficient Alchemy (not Expanded, Efficient, oops), because there's no room in my build for Combine Elixirs but shroudb is right: Eternal Elixir is the stronger choice even so. (Eternal + Combine is really, really strong.)
- 18th: Improbable Elixirs all the way. Fly when you need it? Advanced Alchemy Haste? Survive forever on Ration Tonics? Yeah, great Feat.
- 20th: If Core Rulebook is allowed in your campaign, yeah, Perfect Mutagen is fantastic. If not, Mega Bomb is very thematic, and very useful in the right circumstances. While Alchemical Revivication is really cool, I'm not really into a Capstone that may never get used.
As for the Free Archetype stuff: My only really "gotta Take" is Dual Onslaught from Dual Weapon Warrior at 14th. If you miss with both Dual Thrower Bombs... no you didn't! Choose which one actually hit. (Hint: go for the Create Consumable Bomb if you threw one. :) )
Dual Blitz isn't really worth it, IMHO, As you need to use Quick Alchemy to load up your hands, it isn't an action saver Feat. You can just Stride, Quick Bomber, Quick Bomber in any order instead. And for a number of reasons Flensing Strike just doesn't work with Bombs.
I am a fan of Master Spotter (Investigator Archetype 12th) as Alchemists don't get Master Perception without Canny Acumen, later. Also, Skill Mastery (Investigator Archetype...
Free Archetype can be nice for something like Witch Archetype, giving you a strong familiar for action economy, and spellcasting which certainly can't hurt. Also the Cauldron feat!
Also as an alternative to the extend line, the debilitating bomb line is also nice.
What about Two-Weapon Flurry at 16? Would that work with two bombs?
No, as it's a Press Feat... You can only use it if you're suffering MAP. Which means you normally only have one Bomb in hand, as you already threw the other one.
Ohh ok, thank you! Does sneak attack work for bombs?
I would assume it does. Bombs are thrown weapons.