No, they are not. Casters ever even being Trained in Class DC really only got added in with the remaster, but they have never been interchangeable.
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I can't find anything about Caster classes having a Class DC)?
Which casters have you been looking at, out of curiosity? Because prior to the remaster, casters were untrained in class DC, so you wouldn't find anything about caster class DC there. Every remastered caster has been made trained in class DC, however, and in PF2e every such caster remains trained in their class DC while their spell DC progresses normally. The two statistics are separate, even if they often factor into very similar mechanics.
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Reasons.
It is a difference and a complication the game could do without.
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Other than the fact that it makes sense, of course, since they measure entirely different things. Oh look, a reason! Why would Wizards be the best at critical specialization and other martial abilities just because their shield are difficult you resist?
As for casters "having" them, that would be in the rules for Class DC. Some of them aren't proficient, which means they'll be terrible at the things that use it, but being terrible isn't the same thing as the game not functioning because the value doesn't exist.
Why would Wizards be the best at critical specialization and other martial abilities just because their shield are difficult you resist?
Not necessarily relevant to the main question on the thread, but I'd argue that a Wizard's relative +2 to a crit spec DC compared to a martial class would not necessarily make up for having a relative -4 to their Strike accuracy in most cases. I would also argue that the crowd control attached to crit spec DCs, such as stunning or slowing an enemy, is very much something the Wizard is good at using their spells. There's an inverse to this in Starfinder 2e where certain AoE-oriented weapons use class DC instead of a class's Strike modifier, the reasoning being that a high DC of any kind tends to represent the ability to lay down AoE damage, crowd control, and so on.
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The most painful way this pops up is if you’re a caster playing Stolen Fate. The artifact cards with DCs all use class DC, not the more common language allowing you the better of class or spell DC on items. It’s probably an oversight or a space saving measure.
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Okay, so some clarification:
I was looking at Remastered casting classes... but I skimmed to the later levels when classes gain levels in their other proficiencies (Spells, Weapons, Armor, Saves).
I figured that Spell and Class DCs were different things, but I wanted to be sure, and I didn't know how to find the right answer on AoN.
Admittedly, part of this came about because I was looking at Psi Burst and noticed how it doesn't mention if the DC for the reflex save is based on Class or Spell. Hopefully, that gets cleared up in Remaster. Or who knows? Psychic might be one of the only caster classes to get more than trained in Class DC?
...Actually, now that I think about it, perhaps the Remastered Magus will get higher proficiencies in Class DC and Spellstriking will let them use that in place of Spell DC, like with Attack rolls?
Admittedly, part of this came about because I was looking at Psi Burst and noticed how it doesn't mention if the DC for the reflex save is based on Class or Spell.
Yeah, that is a bit of a problem.
The ability doesn't specify.
Psychic does have proficiency ratings in both Class DC and Spell DC.
And neither the class description or the Mindshift or Psyche traits give a default proficiency to use for class abilities or abilities gained from class feats. Only spellcasting lists using Spell DC proficiency for spells.
Admittedly, part of this came about because I was looking at Psi Burst and noticed how it doesn't mention if the DC for the reflex save is based on Class or Spell. Hopefully, that gets cleared up in Remaster. Or who knows? Psychic might be one of the only caster classes to get more than trained in Class DC?
Class feats use your class DC unless they explicitly state you use your spell DC, so unfortunately Psi Burst uses the Psychic’s terrible class DC, making it a trap feat. This is almost certainly a goof, and I’d see no issue in house ruling it to use your spell DC instead.
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Admittedly, part of this came about because I was looking at Psi Burst and noticed how it doesn't mention if the DC for the reflex save is based on Class or Spell.Yeah, that is a bit of a problem.
The ability doesn't specify.
Psychic does have proficiency ratings in both Class DC and Spell DC.
They don't. Psychics as a premaster class do not have any proficiency in Class DC. They only have Spell DC proficiency. Thus the Psychic's abilities never have to clarify which DC to use because there is only one proficiency.
--ninja'd by Errenor--
The most painful way this pops up is if you’re a caster playing Stolen Fate. The artifact cards with DCs all use class DC, not the more common language allowing you the better of class or spell DC on items. It’s probably an oversight or a space saving measure.
Yeah some APs do this where they put in really important and/or thematic items and then do something that prevents those items from working for a whole pile of classes. Stolen Fate is almost certainly an oversight because it's so big, but even when it's not an oversight it's still a bad time for some groups and the GM should intervene.
We're having that problem in Spore War where the AP wants to give us these really interesting items that basically no one can use, sometimes because it'd require a massive amount of retraining to make work and in other cases because the item flat out only works for certain classes (like the one that requires prepared casting when the only caster in the party is an Oracle, so that's plot relevant bit of vendor trash).
This happened to my group in Extinction Curse near the end and I just started changing items so that they'd get used.
I don't believe that is a rule.
It doesn't seem like Player Core elaborates a ton on class DC, but it does have this to say:
A class DC sets the difficulty for certain abilities granted by your character's class. This DC equals 10 plus their proficiency bonus for their class DC (typically +3 for most 1st-level characters) plus the modifier for the class's key attribute modifier.
Feats are abilities granted by your character's class, therefore the DC they use by default is your class DC. This is why an ability that uses spell DC instead explicitly specifies it.
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What debate?
The books explicitly state how it works. Some individual things have minor oversights, like Psi Burst not actually specifying its DC (but it's also really not unclear), but that's almost inevitable and really doesn't have anything to do with how Class DCs are calculated.
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"Certain abilities" use the class's spell DC because they explicitly say so. There appears to be this extreme keenness to ask for justification on why class DC would apply here, yet an equal keenness to jump to the conclusion that one can just substitute spell DC at-will by default without providing a scrap of evidence in the rules for this. This is a particularly disingenuous attitude to adopt in a discussion meant to be grounded in the rules, as is claiming that there is no debate on the subject when the matter is clearly being debated as we speak.
So let's get down to earth, and not confuse wishful thinking with RAW: where does it say in the rules that you can substitute class DC for spell DC in a class's feats?
I also question these two particular claims:
I would rule that a psychic using a magical class ability such as that would use their spellcasting DC because it is the most logical choice and there is more precedent for it
Which precedent are you referring to here?
And abilities that use Class DC also explicitly specify it.
This is quite plainly false. When a class feature gives a critical specialization effect, the feature does not explicitly state that it uses your class DC, even though it does. When a crit spec effect can use your spell DC instead, it is explicitly stated, as with the Cleric's doctrines or the errata to the Magus's Arcane Fists feat, which previously used their untrained class DC. The fact that the feat had to receive errata to specify this demonstrates that being able to substitute class DC for spell DC is not allowed by default, otherwise there would be no need for it.
Although the remaster has more consistently made it explicit that saves on feats use your class DC, it is clear that this is the default, and instances where you can use a spell DC instead are special-cased. Although you can certainly house rule Psi Burst and other feats to use spell DC instead of class DC, which I wholeheartedly endorse, that is different from pretending that doing so is RAW, which I think is a counterproductive attitude in this sort of discussion.
I think you might wanna adjust your example there as all Critical Specialization Effects with a DC already tells us to explicitly use the Class DC. There's no need for an ability to mention they use Class DC in this scenario as the effect itself does.
This is identical to the rules on class DC already telling us that it is used for a class's abilities. In both cases, the ability does not need to specify this, because it is already stated elsewhere. The errata text you cite supports this as well.
We also have plenty of errata to show that abilities are intended to tell us which DC to use.
The very errata text you cite explicitly states class DC is the default for a class feat, exactly what I've been saying. The text is there to restate a preexisting rule and limit ambiguity, something PF2e does frequently, rather than bar the use of spell DC when doing so would otherwise be valid. The fact that you have not managed to provide any rules supporting the free substitution of spell DC in the place of class DC itself suggests this too. The example you cite of the Monk itself indicates that class DC is stated to avoid rules lawyering around possible ambiguity as some people have done on this thread, not because class DC and spell DC can be used interchangeably.
In this Scenario of psychic, its unreasonable to assume a Class without a Class DC would use said statistic as another errata hints to some classes, mostly pre-remastered spellcasters, simply not having a Class DC and that several errata adresses ancestry and spell-caster class feats to specifically use the higher of Spell or class DCs.
There is this repeated claim made in this thread that premaster casters have no class DC. This claim is false. You always have a class DC; the Psychic is simply untrained in it, so they would use their untrained class DC whenever they would use something like a critical specialization effect. This is, by the way, not a unique occurrence: if you're untrained in an armor type, you still have an AC when using that armor, you just use your untrained proficiency. RAW, you don't get to switch to unarmored proficiency when wearing heavy armor simply because you "have no heavy armor AC," certainly not because it sounds more convenient. Thus, RAW you would use your untrained class DC for Psi Burst, even if a spell DC would make more sense.
And to be clear: the point here isn't that you should use the Psychic's spell DC instead. I think you should. The point I am insisting upon is that when you are doing so, you are house ruling that change. What you are doing is not part of RAW, and acting like it is in a rules discussion thread without bothering to provide a concrete basis in the rules is spreading misinformation. Really, we all seem to be agreement that spell DC makes more sense in this scenario than class DC and it would be better to use it, but just because it is more convenient to do so does not mean it is RAW. We really should stop pretending like it is when not a single rule has yet to be cited in support of swapping replacing class DC with spell DC for class feats when it's not outright specified.
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"Certain abilities" use the class's spell DC because they explicitly say so. There appears to be this extreme keenness to ask for justification on why class DC would apply here, yet an equal keenness to jump to the conclusion that one can just substitute spell DC at-will by default without providing a scrap of evidence in the rules for this.
"Certain abilities" is from your rules quote, and it was about Class DC...
The rules for Critical Specialization say to use Class DC when appropriate. That's why abilities that let you use Spell DC instead say so, because they're an exception.
Nobody said anything about substituting Spell DC for Class DC other than you.
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Man Class DC really is such a terrible mechanic.
"Certain abilities" is from your rules quote, and it was about Class DC...
Correct. Class DC is the default, so RAW, you only use spell DC for feats when it is explicitly specified.
The rules for Critical Specialization say to use Class DC when appropriate. That's why abilities that let you use Spell DC instead say so, because they're an exception.
Correct, so contrary to your claim, using class DC by default is in fact a rule.
Nobody said anything about substituting Spell DC for Class DC other than you.
This is, quite simply, a lie:
I would rule that a psychic using a magical class ability such as that would use their spellcasting DC because it is the most logical choice and there is more precedent for it
Here is Baarogue talking about substituting spell DC for class DC in a post that you endorsed, as you favorited it. I am thus not the only person to bring it up. As a matter of fact, I'm also not even the first, as shown by Errenor's post:
Eh, Class DC where, btw? Some errata? Because it definitely didn't have it at launch (and still hasn't at AoN; or I can't find it). So, here there's absolutely no question it should use spell DC.
Given how obvious it is that numerous people on this thread are trying to argue that using the Psychic's spell DC instead of their class DC for Psi Burst is RAW, I don't understand why you would even attempt to claim otherwise. It also doesn't really strike me as a particularly honest approach to what is ultimately a relatively straightforward rules question that has been resolved by bringing up the actual rules.
The point here is that "Class DC is default" isnt really raw or even commonly understood from the text alone and exists purely as RAI.
The official Paizo text you brought up quite literally states "class DC is the default for a class feat". It is also supported by the Player Core rule excerpt I cited. It really does not get more RAW than this.
And even then the intention written in errata say that abilities SHOULD call out what DC to use since it just as easy to assume that they missed to write out part of the text
That is not what the text says:
Page 164: Monk's Mountain Quake doesn't list which DC to use. While it's technically fine not to include, as class DC is the default for a class feat, given that monks might also have a spell DC, most monk feats indicate that they use class DC. Change to "with a basic Fortitude save against your class DC."
It is fine not to explicitly state that a save in a feat uses a class DC because that is the default, as per the bit emphasized in bold. The reason it was done in that instance was to eliminate any ambiguity in case a player would use the Monk's spell DC instead, which once again is not RAW.
Nobody here said anything like "You can always use SpellDC in place of your ClassDC" But people ARE saying that this specific instance is a very obvious error that have yet been erratad.
Whether or not the lack of specification is an error is your own interpretation. It is, by definition, not RAW, and it is therefore you, not me, who are attempting to assume RAI here. That you refuse to admit this is the entire problem being pointed out.
Similarly I dont see why you we are getting hooked up on "Casters don't have Class DC" as a phrase when Paizo used the exact same language pre-remaster. It makes no difference to the argument that this is an obvious error.
That one sentence calls for removing "trained in class DC" in abridged and ambiguous terms does not mean the class DC statistic was null on casters. If a caster ever had to use a class DC, you used their untrained DC, as with the Magus and Arcane Fists pre-errata. This is, by the way, defined in the rules even in the CRB, with nearly identical wording to the Player Core rule I cited above, so even if casters didn't really have a class DC for most intents and purposes, they quite literally did have at least an untrained class DC at all times for the purposes of effects like critical specialization.
The reason I am "hooked up" on this is because this is a thread about discussing what the rules are. The entire point of this forum is to determine what constitutes RAW for certain game elements. Whether you think the Psychic should use their spell DC instead of their class DC in this instance is irrelevant. You can certainly argue that that's how GMs should house rule the feat and others, but to claim that this is how it works RAW in complete absence of rules evidence is hubris. To keep insisting that your stance is supported RAW when you've not only failed entirely to provide any rules in favor of your argument, but have been outright contradicted by rules and your own citations, crosses the line from misinformation into disinformation, and I really don't think either has any place in this discussion.
*Face slamming intensifies*
Okay. So, my question has been answered.
Spell and Class DC are not the same.
Thank you everyone.Mods, can you lock this thread? We don't need this argument here.
Welcome to the forums.
Why would you stop people expressing themselves?
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Man Class DC really is such a terrible mechanic.
Uh, why? What's wrong with it?
In other d20 games, abilities each include their own save DC formula (though I'm pretty sure I've seen one or two where they forgot to define it!) that are all ultimately pretty similar. Here they define it once, done.Though of course then you get the occasional ability that still doesn't specify to use it, so that's the same issue. But more concise!
I don't understand why you would even attempt to claim otherwise. It also doesn't really strike me as a particularly honest approach to what is ultimately a relatively straightforward rules question that has been resolved by bringing up the actual rules.
This post contains multiple quotes that you then claim say entirely different things.
This post contains multiple quotes that you then claim say entirely different things.
Which, conveniently, you just forgot to bring up? Because thus far, you have managed to come up with no rules to support your stance or quotes to support what you're saying; all you've done is make vague accusations and some demonstrably false claims, as shown in my previous post.
Teridax, what you quoted on page 27 does not say that all class abilities use class DC, nor does it say that it is the default. It says "certain" abilities. The definition for class DC in the glossary says "some" abilities, so since you're claiming it is the default it is your responsibility to show us where it actually says so
"Certain" is correct when some abilities specify using spell DC instead. As per the quote NorrKnekten kindly provided, Paizo has in fact stated that class DC is the default for feats. Not only have I proven my point already, the burden of proof is on you to prove that spell DC can be substituted in place of class DC whenever you feel like it, which you've so far completely failed to do.
I said in this case of an oversight where a psychic's or other spellcasting class's magical ability did not specify class or spellcasting DC, it makes more sense for it to use spellcasting DC.
That sounds very nice; which rule says you can use spell DC instead? Why not use another DC instead, like your Reflex DC or Deception DC?
The precedent I refer to is in other spellcasting classes using spellcasting DC more often than class DC for their magical class abilities.
You mean... their spells? You think it's okay to use spell DC for feats... because of spells? Or are you trying to claim that because a class feature specifies you use your spell DC (could you list an example?), then that must automatically apply to everything else? Because again, in neither case is that how it works RAW.
Add to that the fact that pre-remaster the psychic class was not trained in class DC, and the claim that they would intend for those abilities to use an untrained DC becomes even less credible
I'm sorry, when did I claim that Paizo intended the Psychic to use class DC here?
Despite how clear I made myself on this several times on this, you still appear to be confused: the discussion here isn't about intention, it is about what the rules say. I am not talking about RAI, I am talking about RAW, and what I find shocking in this discussion full of long-time forumgoers is how little distinction appears to be made between the two or one's personal house rules. Because I'm otherwise with you: I think the RAI is likely that Paizo wanted us to use the Psychic's spell DC for feats like Psi Burst, and I would absolutely house rule that to be the case at my table, as it would certainly be a lot more functional than using an untrained DC. What I am trying to point out, however, is that doing so is a house rule. That house rule is not RAW, and it is unhealthy to confuse the two, as that can easily lead to serious misunderstandings of the rules or excessive house ruling that ends up harming play experience. We're actually largely on the same page here, save for the fact that for whichever reason, you feel the need to legitimize your house rule by acting like it's RAW, which is simply not the case and should not be asserted as such in a rules discussion forum.
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Man Class DC really is such a terrible mechanic.Uh, why? What's wrong with it?
In other d20 games, abilities each include their own save DC formula (though I'm pretty sure I've seen one or two where they forgot to define it!) that are all ultimately pretty similar. Here they define it once, done.
Though of course then you get the occasional ability that still doesn't specify to use it, so that's the same issue. But more concise!
Except they didn't define it once: they defined it all over the place. PF1 has a pile of different formulas for things like this, and for any of them that aren't constantly used, we always have to stop and go look up what it is for that thing. And if they forgot to define it, you're basically on your own figuring out how the thing works.
Class DC's problem is that it was half-baked: a bunch of classes didn't have it initially (though the remaster is fixing that) and some things didn't specify that they used it. But at least in the latter case if you guess that they should be using it, you don't have to guess at the formula.
Psychic is one of these mistakes because Psi Burst (or Psyche feats in general) doesn't say what to use and Psychic also doesn't have training in class DC. That leaves us in this situation of trying to figure out what the rule actually is. Usually class feat DCs use the class DC.
The problem of course is that without training in class DC, the feat very quickly becomes completely useless as outside very low level, everything will critically succeed against Psi Burst. So if you rule it to use spell DC instead, the feat actually functions. Since it's nonfunctional with one ruling and functional with the other, that makes it pretty clear to me what the RAI is. But RAW doesn't say that.
This is one of those cases where RAW is a troll ruling.
(The comparison point is Remaster Oracle which has a similar situation with Cursebound feats like Debilitating Dichotomy, except Oracle does say to use spell DC unless the feat says otherwise.)
Except they didn't define it once: they defined it all over the place. PF1 has a pile of different formulas for things like this, and for any of them that aren't constantly used, we always have to stop and go look up what it is for that thing. And if they forgot to define it, you're basically on your own figuring out how the thing works.
This is a big part of the problem, in my opinion, and I'm definitely of the camp that the class DC/spell DC separation does not work well in practice, with Psi Burst being one example of how it can go badly. Ultimately, both are different statistics used for the same bucket of debuffs, crowd control, and AoE, but because they cover different defaults and aren't always made to scale, you get situations like Psi Burst where clearly, the feat is meant to use one stat, but by default uses another that's unusable. The fact that the RAI here is so obvious yet so different from RAW is an issue, and I'm willing to bet that the Psychic's feats will explicitly specify using spell DC following the Dark Archive remaster. Until then, it's a matter of house ruling that same thing for those feats, and I think we could all benefit from accepting that house ruling, when done with a proper understanding of the rules and sound judgment, is a perfectly fine thing to do and doesn't need to be passed off as RAW to be valid.