I been looking at Summoner and it feels like it needs a decent remaster and new feats. It feels outdated not that it is weak by any means honestly but that is not the point, it just feels old. Anyone else feel the same way here?
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Well I already ran into the fact that as now dragons are tied to multiple traditions, it made sense to accommodate one of my players who wanted to have a Dragon Eidolon but have it be Primal tradition. I let them use the normal rules for Dragon, but let them choose the Primal tradition for their spellcasting.
Summoner has some real pain points and the remaster has caused some side effects to it. It's a pretty ambitious class and given what is known about it now, a touch up could do it a lot of good.
Plus they could finally sort out if Eidolons can interact with mundane items or not because SoM was inconsistent on it and its been table variance ever since.
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Occult only having two phantoms that are... let's say, less likely to inspire characters than what the other traditions have, is a bit of a bummer. Aberration is such a natural fit that Secrets of Magic even discusses the underpinning of why occult tradition summons aberrations in the occult magic section.
I know that a remaster is unlikely to add a lot of new class options, but I'll go ahead and toss it out there anyway.
they already printed an update for summoners it’s called timber sentinel /s
Occult only having two phantoms that are... let's say, less likely to inspire characters than what the other traditions have, is a bit of a bummer. Aberration is such a natural fit that Secrets of Magic even discusses the underpinning of why occult tradition summons aberrations in the occult magic section.
I know that a remaster is unlikely to add a lot of new class options, but I'll go ahead and toss it out there anyway.
The changes to dragons should make a dragon option be available in each of the main spell casting flavors. An occult dragon eidolon seems very fitting.
Summoner is in an especially bad state because it's a darn wave caster. For those 2 top R spells, they are a legit potent class. If the Eidolon is a genuine boon, then Paizo has to be comfortable with allowing Summoner to be "better" than a normal caster when their limited spells are still flying.
It's just a decade-outdated design idea to use something like limited spells to "balance" other boons, as that kind of attrition is so inconsistent in actual play.
But imo Paizo never really was comfortable with Summoners being noticeably better in single-fight days, so a middling / mediocre class has dropped to a rather sorry state.
I've got a L14 Summoner in Ruby Phoenix, and the main surprise has been just how bad the Eidolon's math is at that level.
I mentioned it in another thread, but the payoff for running the Eidolon around and making Strikes is less damage than the most flexible all-combat sustain spell that even Occult has access to, Phantom Orchestra.
The Summoner is such a victim of Paizo Balance, that attempting to use the Eidolon as a martial is a "trap" in far too many scenarios that can result in a performance downgrade when compared against playing as a very thrifty caster that dips to get very carefully chosen focus spells, lol.
Even the detail of the Eidolon using the caster's spell DC is hilarious (and a dumb cop out).
If there's 2 targets within 30ft, my Butler is always better off casting Electric Arc while I sustain or do a 1A ___. It has become apparent that just about the only time the Eidolon *should* Strike is if there's Haste or some other uncommon contextual consideration, such as the foe being Trip/Grab immune.
Checking the numbers, L14 devotion phantom summoner:
Eidolon's avg 1A Strike dmg: 23.5
El-Arc 2A, 2 targets: 40 dmg
Doing 40 damage w/ a basic reflex is more than enough of an advantage that it's better for my Eidolon to spam EA at every opportunity than it is for them to swing a Strike.
Having access to genuinely martial Strike accuracy, but still choosing to EA when at MAP 0, that is a very sad state of affairs.
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Why aren't you EAing the target(s) for 40 while the eidolon Strikes for 23.5?
Last I checked 63.5 is better than either 23.5 or 40.
Why aren't you EAing the target(s) for 40 while the eidolon Strikes for 23.5?
Last I checked 63.5 is better than either 23.5 or 40.
If you only have one target or vs one with really high reflex saves it is nice having the eidolon with martial accuracy and in those situations you can boost your pet to give it even a bit more oomf.
Why aren't you EAing the target(s) for 40 while the eidolon Strikes for 23.5?
Last I checked 63.5 is better than either 23.5 or 40.
Firstly, because the SMN can be sustaining for a 10ft burst of 31.5 sonic damage while the Eidolon is tossing El-Arc. If 2 targets, that's EA's 40 + Phantom Orchestra's 1A 63.
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Without the elephant of even sustained slot spells eclipsing the Eidolon's performance, the math encourages them to EA spam because the Eidolon has bad speed and its strikes are melee.
It is much easier to have them move in and turret up; way more practical to maintain 30ft proximity than it is to chase and reposition every time a foe moves or drops to 0.
And by L14, 23.5 Strike dmg is worth less than a successful Grapple or Trip.
The opportunity cost is very different for my Eidolon than it is for the martial PCs that do significantly more damage / have better rewards for landing Strikes. For them, using MAP 0 on Athletics is a more costly tradeoff.
The only party member that sometimes does less damage is a throwing build Commander, but his Strike imparts a roll twice fortune effect every time he lands a throw.
After the monster Grab & Knockdown nerf, there really is nothing my Eidolon has, or could get via Feats, that would make 1A Strikes appealing enough to use over spells/maneuvers. Those two feats really were load-bearing pillars offering the Summoner a unique power-feature.
I especially lack motivation to Strike when my Summoner's L12 feat slot is currently providing Reactive Strike via Flexible Transmogrification. If the Trip lands, that stand up offers a R Strike at MAP 0 at 0A.
(for every RS martial in range)
The only other serious competition for Reactions is the Sever Conduit to poof the Eidolon and nullify a last hit.
(which is yet another band-aid that should just be a core and free part of Summoner's chassis)