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[gardens of wonder talk]
Huh. I had never heard of these. They're terrible. Like, let's take all the problems that make 95% of wands trash and then make it non portable. But if I feel like talking about that, I'm going to have to make a new thread.
Yeah, they only function in a campaign if the GM is mostly paying for it. Can genuinely be great NPC rewards to the party though, letting them pick from a sub-list of consumables to get 4x ____s per day for saving the family/town/etc is a flavorful and mechanically impactful reward. The templated concept of Gardens makes that easy for a GM to do.
But for player-created Gardens,
you need like 10 to 20 meaningful "uses" of the garden's consumable to break even. And when you consider that most consumables have static numbers that fall behind as levels go up... it does look bad.
But then you have the unicorn items like Bola Shot or Feather Token: Bush that are evergreen and low level.
The way the system both simply cannot set on-level items at a viable price point, but simultaneously completely imploding when low level items manage to remain useful, is the rather damning observation, imo.
Gardens are either useless or overpowered, almost impossible to get them priced just right (with the text provided by Paizo).
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At the very least, Gardens are kinda great for roleplaying and long intermission campaigns*.
Honestly a little too good when re-contextualizing the gp set points, and the GM needs to carefully think through the implications of item factories like that.
Even if the items need to be used or be wasted, a Garden of Healing built in a city can spit out Contagion Metabolizers, etc, while the PCs are away. The PC can come back to collect a fat purse from the hireling who sells the daily healings. Even if the gross-costs net per-Activate value is like 20% of its listed gp cost, it's still kinda a yikes gold factory.
PCs that choose to invest their gold into such schemes before timeskips can be economically dangerous.
*So imo leave Gardens to be mostly flavor side activities that don't actually affect the campaign.
And if the player + GM want to do some gp investment, the two of them should talk out what their expectations are, and mostly improvise it themselves. Trying to use Paizo's numbers is a bad idea.
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But back on topic of Psychic Dedication,
there is just too much standardization of caster Dedication feats for me to not object to Psychic jumping straight to a focus point + amp cantrip like that.
The Psy Dedication being -1 cantrip below the norm, to be +1 focus spell just results in a bonus ~L6-ish class feat in most circumstances. That's not okay.
I honestly think Witch Dedication is a bit problematic as well for the same reason. It does have more restrictions due to the patron + familiar based spellcasting, but even the -1 cantrip, -1 f.ability familiar still results in way more value than is appropriate most of the time. At the very least, an Archetype Witch has a big weakpoint of the familiar (without the full Witch's per day revive/regenerate).
Psy Dedication is that much better, and in a lot of ways, my SMN/Witch would have been better off if they dropped Witch and instead picked Psy and a Familiar Master or other familiar archetype. That's... a pretty damning observation of Psy's power level, imo.
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Psy Dedication is that much better, and in a lot of ways, my SMN/Witch would have been better off if they dropped Witch and instead picked Psy and a Familiar Master or other familiar archetype. That's... a pretty damning observation of Psy's power level, imo.
It's an observation that a feat that gives a focus spell is better than a feat that gives a familiar even though both familiars and some focus spells are priced as level 1 feats.
Witch dedication would have been pretty competitive with psychic dedication in the early days of the game before the devs killed all the familiar tricks and then buffed refocusing.
It's just that psychic stands out from something like blessed one by being a multiclass archetype, and therefore being grabbed at 9 by every human or human-adopted character or at 2 by every elf that has nothing better to grab.
What continues to really confuse me about this whole thread is the idea that it's somehow broken instead of just being good. If it were broken it'd be on every character because it is powerful, and not just because it's the best value you can get for multitalented.
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Even if the items need to be used or be wasted, a Garden of Healing built in a city can spit out Contagion Metabolizers, etc, while the PCs are away. The PC can come back to collect a fat purse from the hireling who sells the daily healings. Even if the gross-costs net per-Activate value is like 20% of its listed gp cost, it's still kinda a yikes gold factory.
No such thing in PF2e.
By the time the PCs pay their hirelings, purchase the materials necessary to sustain and maintain the garden, taxes on the products, fees to the local crafter guilds, and bribes to criminals and politicians to get around red tape and other troubles, they're just making an Earn Income check to see what's left for their own personal profit.
Even if the items need to be used or be wasted, a Garden of Healing built in a city can spit out Contagion Metabolizers, etc, while the PCs are away. The PC can come back to collect a fat purse from the hireling who sells the daily healings. Even if the gross-costs net per-Activate value is like 20% of its listed gp cost, it's still kinda a yikes gold factory.No such thing in PF2e.
By the time the PCs pay their hirelings, purchase the materials necessary to sustain and maintain the garden, taxes on the products, fees to the local crafter guilds, and bribes to criminals and politicians to get around red tape and other troubles, they're just making an Earn Income check to see what's left for their own personal profit.
That's kinda my whole point, that the economy of such systems is so unusable that the GM should default to nullifying it outright via whatever improv is required to achieve that outcome.
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A gold star GM could instead have the year-later checkup with the hireling turn into a sidequest. PCs show up to the Garden, and the hireling(s) are unconscious and bloodied.
Once conscious, the hirelings say they got all the money ready to hand off, but someone took advantage to rob them!
Now the PCs are personally invested in a sidequest, and the players are no longer getting free gp.
The quest reward to "recover" that gold is just the appropriate payout for however serious of a side-plot the pursuit becomes.
(Can you tell that I really hate how APs will have the PCs combat thieves, then expect the "good guys" to not only rob the thieves blind, but to also take the stolen goods for themselves?)
And the escalation of the thief pursuit mission being based on how much gp the PCs were printing is perfectly harmonious with the storytelling.
If it's a small purse, then it'll be a rather quick stop by the safehouse / hidey hole of a well-known perp.
A few thousand gp? that'll attract a more sophisticated class of criminal, and you might need to dig out that arrowhead from your hirelings leg and cast Object Memory to get started on that member of the heist crew.
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Making money off of items is really off topic with no direct connection to this thread.
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What continues to really confuse me about this whole thread is the idea that it's somehow broken instead of just being good. If it were broken it'd be on every character because it is powerful, and not just because it's the best value you can get for multitalented.
I keep seeing this notion that "if it's broken, then it must be on literally every build" when this is literally never the case even for notoriously broken feats. In fact, this wasn't even the case in 1e, which had some options that were far more overpowered than anything in 2e.
But sure, let's run with this notion regardless: already, Psychic Dedication is an extremely frequent pick on the Magus, so that already starts to satisfy that unreasonably high standard. On top of this, the dedication does get frequently picked just for amped guidance, and while that much is fine, the way focus spells work means that accessing that amp means anyone with the dedication alone can retroactively bump up degrees of success three times every encounter, which does make a significant impact.
This too could also be fine if the impact were commensurate with the impact of other 2nd-level feats... but it's not. The dedication is notably stronger than other 2nd-level feats, and is in fact stronger than most other dedication feats other than Exemplar Dedication, a genuinely broken feat. We can talk about how 2nd-level feats, and dedication feats in particular, to stand to be improved, but I think that even in a world where multiclass dedication feats offer more of a taste of the class, those dedications should still not offer any measure of the class's unique selling point to its fullest amount. The dedication is notably above the curve for feats of its level, and that does cause genuine problems, so in my opinion it is well worth addressing in the upcoming Dark Archive remaster.
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But sure, let's run with this notion regardless: already, Psychic Dedication is an extremely frequent pick on the Magus, so that already starts to satisfy that unreasonably high standard. On top of this, the dedication does get frequently picked just for amped guidance, and while that much is fine, the way focus spells work means that accessing that amp means anyone with the dedication alone can retroactively bump up degrees of success three times every encounter, which does make a significant impact.
Let's not get things mixed up. The psychic dedication itself could give literally nothing and magi would take it for the 6th level archetype feat because IW is the best in slot choice for spellstrike. Remove IW and they drop psychic entirely for cleric instead. The psychic dedication is icing on the cake, not a primary motivator by any means.
Past that, yes, it offers a good focus spell for everyone else, that's why people take it. Is it better than many level 2 feats? Yes, mostly because so few level 2 feats are ever worth taking over starting an archetype. If it's not psychic, it's blessed one, champion, spirit warrior, alchemist, oracle, etc, etc. That has more to do with level 2 feat quality being awful than psychic dedication. Again, it's a good choice, but not a broken one.
I liken it to the problem general feats have. Where everyone picks the same options, not because they're broken, but because everything else is bad.
Now, where exemplar *is* a big power spike is compared to just not taking any archetypes at all, which less skilled build crafters were doing in the first place. So it appears much more powerful than it is because it causes a big jump in power for a large fraction of the playerbase, by dint of being simple and easy to understand. Any idiot can see the value of flat damage, add exemplar onto your monoclass no archetype build and it’ll improve it because there’s no opportunity cost if you weren’t going to use the opportunity anyways.Aside from the insulting tone, that's literally the point. It's one feat that is way out of line with other feats of its level.
The idea that it's less out of line in a specific situation where you're playing a specific hyper optimized setup doesn't actually make it okay for how typical people actually play the game.
Fighter is way out of line with the spellcasting classes. You just take it and it works. As long as you don't do something really stupid like dumping your key stat you'll be ok. You get amazing accuracy, can't accidentally not take reactive strike, and the average quality of fighter class feats is fairly up there as far as classes go, so you'll do ok even if you suck at picking synergistic feats.
Meanwhile spellcasting classes hand noobs a glock pointed at their foot loaded with every bad spell paizo has ever printed and class feats that half of the time might as well not even exist for all the impact you'll feel in play. Shit man I was a veteran 5e player when I started 2e and some of my early spell picks make me cringe hard today, how's it gonna be for someone coming in no experience?
Exemplar dedication is easier to understand and use than most of the the build specific dedication combos and sequencing a skilled player can do. But if we're gonna say it's overpowered because of that we should start by banning fighter, and/or barbarian. Wouldn't want someone to be able to pick those classes when their teammate might be stuck casting web cause it was good in 5e.
Let's not get things mixed up. The psychic dedication itself could give literally nothing and magi would take it for the 6th level archetype feat because IW is the best in slot choice for spellstrike. Remove IW and they drop psychic entirely for cleric instead. The psychic dedication is icing on the cake, not a primary motivator by any means.
I feel this misses the point, which is that this is an inevitable consequence of the Psychic multiclass archetype offering amps. Psi Development is overpowered for pretty much the same reason that Psychic Dedication is overpowered, and so long as one or the other feat offers an amp, the archetype is still likely to be too far above the curve.
Past that, yes, it offers a good focus spell for everyone else, that's why people take it. Is it better than many level 2 feats? Yes, mostly because so few level 2 feats are ever worth taking over starting an archetype. If it's not psychic, it's blessed one, champion, spirit warrior, alchemist, oracle, etc, etc. That has more to do with level 2 feat quality being awful than psychic dedication. Again, it's a good choice, but not a broken one.
I liken it to the problem general feats have. Where everyone picks the same options, not because they're broken, but because everything else is bad.
So here's the thing: I don't disagree with you, I think you make a valid point. Most general feats are either must-haves like the trinity of Fleet, Incredible Initiative, and Toughness, or are hot garbage, with little room in-between. Although the remaster improved many classes' feats, especially caster feats, there are still plenty of feats like Cantrip Expansion that utterly suck. Ideally, I'd like the underperforming options to be improved, and would like characters to receive more options in general.
However, we also live in a world where it is unlikely that Paizo is going to overhaul an entire range of feats. Thus, for starters, I think we need to work with the balancing standard we have, rather than expect every feat to be buffed. I also, however, still think that even in a world where 2nd-level feats felt generally good to use, the Psychic archetype giving out amps would be an issue, especially if the Psychic is to receive the buffs it greatly needs right now. I don't think it's good form for an archetype to give the best part of a class, and that's what the dedication does right now: we may not necessarily attach that much value to focus spells here, but the Psychic's amps I think are genuinely way above the curve for what focus spells normally provide. There's clearly a risk of excessive synergy with other classes, as shown with the Magus, so as much as I think handing out the buffed cantrips is fine, I don't think the dedication or subsequent archetype feats need to provide the amps on top.
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The issue of giving out AMPs in a post remastered game is that all characters can use all their focus spells every encounter and they couldn’t when the psychic dedication was created. Characters couldn’t amped guidance 3 times every encounter. That remaster change really changes a lot about how the archetype works. Limiting amps to once an encounter outside of the base class really seems like the necessary restriction.
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Unicore highlights an important point there. Psychic Dedication was originally balanced for focus spells pre-remaster. Where until level any character other than a psychic could only cast their focus spell once per fight or end up with 1 less point in their pool for the rest of the day, then stuck at 1 if they did it again. You had to carefully choose not to overspend them.
That's kind of why I suggested a limitation like inflicting Stupefied for a round after using an amp from the archetype for non-true psychics (plus it brings in some of the actual class' flavor). Or limiting it with a cool down, or both.
But on the general discourse that's been going on:
I see a lot essentially argue "well there's plenty of feat types that have best in slots ones. What about them." or "It's not that psychic is OP, it's that the other options suck".
To that, a few clarifications.
First, yes. General feats as brought up earlier are a clear example of some feats being must picks while the rest is meh at best.
Lots of level 2 feats (especially for casters) and dedication feats (again, especially from casters) aren't that interessting or good. So by comparison Psychic is just too good.
But we're discussing Psychic because it's going to be remastered soon. So it's relevant to talk about IT now. That other types of feats have issues being too good (or not having any better options) is irrelevant.
Aka: yes, fire is dangerous and plenty of houses burn down every year. But we're busy dealing with a flood and discussing how to manage that problem. So your fire point is irrelevant.
Second, about it not being OP but just the rest being so bad that the one good option is too appealing.... yes that's what overpowered mean. It's better than the other options.
Now, it COULD be that it's just "good" while the rest is awful. But I believe there can be a middle point between "trash feats" and "must pick". Ya know ?
Psychic Dedication should be reeled in, while other stuff should get buffed. But again, other stuff being buffed isn't in the scope of a discussion about Psychic Dedication getting reworked in Dark Archives Remastered.
That'll either be in future erratas, or have to wait for PF3E.
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The issue of giving out AMPs in a post remastered game is that all characters can use all their focus spells every encounter and they couldn’t when the psychic dedication was created. Characters couldn’t amped guidance 3 times every encounter. That remaster change really changes a lot about how the archetype works. Limiting amps to once an encounter outside of the base class really seems like the necessary restriction.
You can say this about literally every good poachable focus spell. And yet, they remain poachable in remaster material.
Are you sure you're not just terrified of the intense power of...a reaction for a +2 status bonus? +1 over the omnipresent inspire or bless but only to prevent a fail is nice but hardly worth worrying about. Especially when it has to compete with other reactions, like attacks or aid.
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There's a difference between "good" and "the class's key asset and the reason they're a 2-slot, 6 HP/level caster," though. Poaching tempest surge from the Druid is generally not going to make you a better Druid, nor will poaching cackle make you a better Witch. A +2 status bonus that's guaranteed to bump up a check's degree of success as a reaction three times per encounter makes a major difference in my experience, more so than the aforementioned focus spells.
I also feel this conversation's happening at a tender point in time when the Psychic is in-between the remaster occurring and actually getting remastered: given how every caster can Refocus like they do now more or less, they're almost certain to get tuned up in the Dark Archive remaster, and while I can only speculate as to what those changes will be, I'm willing to bet they'll receive changes to their amps. At that point, if the multiclass dedication doesn't get changed, that's probably when we'd all be able to make the most stable assessment of the archetype's balance for the rest of the edition's future.
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There's a difference between "good" and "the class's key asset and the reason they're a 2-slot, 6 HP/level caster," though. Poaching tempest surge from the Druid is generally not going to make you a better Druid, nor will poaching cackle make you a better Witch. A +2 status bonus that's guaranteed to bump up a check's degree of success as a reaction three times per encounter makes a major difference in my experience, more so than the aforementioned focus spells.
I can't say I've ever gotten any crazy mileage out of amp guidance. Mostly because of the +1 status bonus to attacks already on everyone and +3 and +4 aids stacking with it and being capable of bumping checks to crits. Yes, I do believe a +15-20% chance to hit/crit on a roll every turn is better than holding my reaction to bump a roll that missed by 1 or 2.
Maybe that's why I don't find it broken. I typically take psychic more for the focus point than the actual amp. Most martials? Extra LoH for an emergency heal or to heal between waves. Monk? Shield to proc psi strikes. Other casters? If not extra casts of their own focus spell, then message, actually. Force the reaction attack even if the enemy doesn't want to move or stand up.
Maybe that's why I don't find it broken. I typically take psychic more for the focus point than the actual amp. Most martials? Extra LoH for an emergency heal or to heal between waves. Monk? Shield to proc psi strikes. Other casters? If not extra casts of their own focus spell, then message, actually. Force the reaction attack even if the enemy doesn't want to move or stand up.
This is probably where our difference in perspective comes from. In a party with a Bard, for sure amped guidance has fewer uses, though in my experience I found it extremely useful for boosting saves and skill checks too. It helps that most casters don't have a huge number of reactions either, so I found it greatly enhances their overall action economy. If you're picking the dedication without any real intention of using the amp, then for sure the benefit is reduced.
I do think it's worth pointing out as well that other classes do lock their own focus spells out of their MC archetype: the Animist archetype doesn't hand out its vessel spells, for instance, and probably for the best given how they can almost single-handedly make a build. Witches don't give out their hex cantrips either, so just because something's not as powerful as a slot spell doesn't mean it's automatically given out in an archetype. Even the Summoner archetype doesn't give out link spells, so the Psychic would by no means be the only class to gatekeep its focus spells if amps got taken out of the dedication.
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I do think it's worth pointing out as well that other classes do lock their own focus spells out of their MC archetype: the Animist archetype doesn't hand out its vessel spells, for instance, and probably for the best given how they can almost single-handedly make a build. Witches don't give out their hex cantrips either, so just because something's not as powerful as a slot spell doesn't mean it's automatically given out in an archetype. Even the Summoner archetype doesn't give out link spells, so the Psychic would by no means be the only class to gatekeep its focus spells if amps got taken out of the dedication.
Bard or bard archetype yeah. Both the inspire cantrip and lingering focus spell are both poachable after all.
Animist is really the exception when it comes to poaching. Witch offers the lesson feats to poach its focus spells, though not its cantrip. Summoner also allows poaching its focus cantrips and spells, with the sole exception of evolution surge. The other casters all make their early focus spells available as do all the martials with focus spells.
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I love how you keep going on about how often the the psychic MCD is something most Magi take? Where are you getting that data from?
From my eyes. Have you literally never read a Magus discussion online or played with one? Because this thread should already give an indication, and the combo is ubiquitous at every table I’ve played that featured a Magus.
Animist is really the exception when it comes to poaching. Witch offers the lesson feats to poach its focus spells, though not its cantrip. Summoner also allows poaching its focus cantrips and spells, with the sole exception of evolution surge. The other casters all make their early focus spells available as do all the martials with focus spells.
As shown by the numerous examples of unpoachable spells you’ve just listed, they’re really not. Many focus spells cannot be poached, so why does it need to be open season for the Psychic’s amps? For that matter, what difference would it make to you if you only take the dedication for the focus point, when you could just pick Blessed One?
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I love how you keep going on about how often the the psychic MCD is something most Magi take? Where are you getting that data from?From my eyes. Have you literally never read a Magus discussion online or played with one? Because this thread should already give an indication, and the combo is ubiquitous at every table I’ve played that featured a Magus.
Animist is really the exception when it comes to poaching. Witch offers the lesson feats to poach its focus spells, though not its cantrip. Summoner also allows poaching its focus cantrips and spells, with the sole exception of evolution surge. The other casters all make their early focus spells available as do all the martials with focus spells.As shown by the numerous examples of unpoachable spells you’ve just listed, they’re really not. Many focus spells cannot be poached, so why does it need to be open season for the Psychic’s amps? For that matter, what difference would it make to you if you only take the dedication for the focus point, when you could just pick Blessed One?
I play a lot of PFS.
I have played with dozens of different players over the last 6+ years.I have seen many Magusi, from level 1-10(so far), and not 1 has Multi-classed into Psychic.
Heck, as far as I can tell, I'm the only player in my circle of PFS that has really read any gaming boards, or at least with any interest in optimization.
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I love how you keep going on about how often the the psychic MCD is something most Magi take? Where are you getting that data from?From my eyes. Have you literally never read a Magus discussion online or played with one? Because this thread should already give an indication, and the combo is ubiquitous at every table I’ve played that featured a Magus.
Animist is really the exception when it comes to poaching. Witch offers the lesson feats to poach its focus spells, though not its cantrip. Summoner also allows poaching its focus cantrips and spells, with the sole exception of evolution surge. The other casters all make their early focus spells available as do all the martials with focus spells.As shown by the numerous examples of unpoachable spells you’ve just listed, they’re really not. Many focus spells cannot be poached, so why does it need to be open season for the Psychic’s amps? For that matter, what difference would it make to you if you only take the dedication for the focus point, when you could just pick Blessed One?I play a lot of PFS.
I have played with dozens of different players over the last 6+ years.
I have seen many Magusi, from level 1-10(so far), and not 1 has Multi-classed into Psychic.
Heck, as far as I can tell, I'm the only player in my circle of PFS that has really read any gaming boards, or at least with any interest in optimization.
I MCed my Starlit Span in Cleric (of Ragathiel) for the Fire Ray before Psychic happened and I liked having access to positive and alignment damage.
I did not change that in the Remaster for the great flavor the dedication brings her.
And Holy damage too.
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I've heard of psychic magi plenty of times...in these forums.
I've yet to see one at an actual table.
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There's a difference between "good" and "the class's key asset and the reason they're a 2-slot, 6 HP/level caster," though. Poaching tempest surge from the Druid is generally not going to make you a better Druid, nor will poaching cackle make you a better Witch. A +2 status bonus that's guaranteed to bump up a check's degree of success as a reaction three times per encounter makes a major difference in my experience, more so than the aforementioned focus spells.I can't say I've ever gotten any crazy mileage out of amp guidance. Mostly because of the +1 status bonus to attacks already on everyone and +3 and +4 aids stacking with it and being capable of bumping checks to crits. Yes, I do believe a +15-20% chance to hit/crit on a roll every turn is better than holding my reaction to bump a roll that missed by 1 or 2.
Maybe that's why I don't find it broken. I typically take psychic more for the focus point than the actual amp. Most martials? Extra LoH for an emergency heal or to heal between waves. Monk? Shield to proc psi strikes. Other casters? If not extra casts of their own focus spell, then message, actually. Force the reaction attack even if the enemy doesn't want to move or stand up.
How do you get +3 and +4 aids with a single Dedication feat?
I would love to get it.
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Just chiming in with another "haven't seen Psychic dedication on a Magus". I even played a Starlit Span Magus without dedicating into Psychic because I wanted Vitality Lash and Divine Lance from Cleric dedication. Heck, when I do take Psychic dedication it's because I meet a confluence of wanting: a focus spell, a one-action or reaction filler, and I am tired of seeing Blessed One. Or I'm a Wizard and I want something useful to spend my focus points on (and I don't go Witch instead).
If you take the amps out of Psychic dedication, then what does the archetype actually offer over Bard or Witch? Pretty sure that just leaves some slightly improved cantrips, some class feats that nobody wants (including the actual Psychics usually), and archetype spellcasting. Those cantrips had better be rocking since the alternative is good focus spells, a familiar, some decent class feats, and courageous anthem.
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There's a difference between "good" and "the class's key asset and the reason they're a 2-slot, 6 HP/level caster," though. Poaching tempest surge from the Druid is generally not going to make you a better Druid, nor will poaching cackle make you a better Witch. A +2 status bonus that's guaranteed to bump up a check's degree of success as a reaction three times per encounter makes a major difference in my experience, more so than the aforementioned focus spells.I can't say I've ever gotten any crazy mileage out of amp guidance. Mostly because of the +1 status bonus to attacks already on everyone and +3 and +4 aids stacking with it and being capable of bumping checks to crits. Yes, I do believe a +15-20% chance to hit/crit on a roll every turn is better than holding my reaction to bump a roll that missed by 1 or 2.
Maybe that's why I don't find it broken. I typically take psychic more for the focus point than the actual amp. Most martials? Extra LoH for an emergency heal or to heal between waves. Monk? Shield to proc psi strikes. Other casters? If not extra casts of their own focus spell, then message, actually. Force the reaction attack even if the enemy doesn't want to move or stand up.
How do you get +3 and +4 aids with a single Dedication feat?
I would love to get it.
Those +3 and +4 aren't coming from a dedication typically (though Swashbuckler Archetype has One For All), they're coming from the Aid reaction. You add +3 if you critically succeed and you're a master in the skill, or +4 if legendary.
As by default the DC is always 15, this becomes trivially easy at high level to the point that the only way to not critically succeed is to roll a nat 1.
And my opinions on that are best for another thread. ;)
That phrasing is a bit misleading. DC 15 is a rule of thumb starting point, yes, but the rule is that the DC is set by the GM case by case, and the rules do include things like guidance that attempting the same Aid method repeatedly against a creature should have the DC rise.
It's still true that Aid is a very strong tool, and true that critting tends to become much easier as you go, but it can't be accurately presented like the DC is fixed.
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I would also like to say that even in FA games, no players at my tables or the tables I play at have known to take psychic on magus without being informed by a GM. Even then, one of those magi never bothered with it and is still very happy with their build, being a more RP-first player.
Just chiming in with another "haven't seen Psychic dedication on a Magus". I even played a Starlit Span Magus without dedicating into Psychic because I wanted Vitality Lash and Divine Lance from Cleric dedication. Heck, when I do take Psychic dedication it's because I meet a confluence of wanting: a focus spell, a one-action or reaction filler, and I am tired of seeing Blessed One. Or I'm a Wizard and I want something useful to spend my focus points on (and I don't go Witch instead).
If you take the amps out of Psychic dedication, then what does the archetype actually offer over Bard or Witch? Pretty sure that just leaves some slightly improved cantrips, some class feats that nobody wants (including the actual Psychics usually), and archetype spellcasting. Those cantrips had better be rocking since the alternative is good focus spells, a familiar, some decent class feats, and courageous anthem.
If you take away the amp, not much with gouging strike so good now.
That phrasing is a bit misleading. DC 15 is a rule of thumb starting point, yes, but the rule is that the DC is set by the GM case by case, and the rules do include things like guidance that attempting the same Aid method repeatedly against a creature should have the DC rise.
It's still true that Aid is a very strong tool, and true that critting tends to become much easier as you go, but it can't be accurately presented like the DC is fixed.
That's best discussed in a different thread because it'll get lengthy. :)
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How do you get +3 and +4 aids with a single Dedication feat?I would love to get it.
Not the single feat. You get them through swashbuckler's one for all and gunslinger's fake out.
It's why on magi my level 9 multitalented recommendation goes to gunslinger whenever it's available. Fake out at 10 means when your proficiency advances at level 11 you put a gauntlet bow on and fake out for +3 without any setup.
And I've said the same thing in those threads. And as for playing one, it actually happens to be my favorite class and I've been able to play 6 of them since release to varying levels highest went to 16th. Of those 6 only 2 took psychic MCD one for oscillating wave and the other was tangible dream. And I've played in a campaign with one and he chose the witch MCD
So you have in fact contributed to these statistics yourself, then? In that case, why pretend that this combo doesn’t happen?
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Throwing my thoughts back into this thread. I have not seen Magus with Psychic dedication but I have heard of all the chaos that happened because of it. Then again it is difficult to not see someone who does Psychic Magus just for the absurd IW spam or Fire Ray because of how freakishly good Fire Ray can be. It's hella difficult to feel useful when the Magus is throwing about IW level's of damage every turn for the first 3 turns of combat.
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That phrasing is a bit misleading. DC 15 is a rule of thumb starting point, yes, but the rule is that the DC is set by the GM case by case, and the rules do include things like guidance that attempting the same Aid method repeatedly against a creature should have the DC rise.
It's still true that Aid is a very strong tool, and true that critting tends to become much easier as you go, but it can't be accurately presented like the DC is fixed.
I once did an analysis comparing map-10 strikes by a typical martial to aid
I used map-10 attacks as a good yardstick for what makes a decent action, given all the advice around trying to find a third action to do instead of spamming dogwater map-10 attacks. If an action is as bad or worse than a map-10 attack, I think it's safe to call it a bad action.
My judgement criteria was simply the chance of causing strike damage that otherwise wouldn't happen, with a critical hit taken as an additional instance of strike damage as critical hits are about twice as much damage as normal attacks. An approximation but a close one.
The DC of the attack roll was just average monster AC for the level from the creature building table.
Aid bonus was assumed to be as good as possible without specifically specing into it. Maxed skill, maxed ability, item bonuses, etc.)
Result
My findings were that aid doesn't become on par with a map-10 attack until level 7, and if you use level based DC scaling it's still under at level 15, and only just creeps over at level 20.
Aid also has a higher cost than a map-10 attack, eating up your valuable reactions, and of course the quality of third actions and reactions you have access to rises dramatically over the levels as you gain gear and feats, so for aid to be competitive it needs to do a good bit better than a map-10 attack - which it eventually does, maxing out at just under double the strike damage of a map-10 attack sometime before level 15 (I only looked at levels 1, 7, 15, and 20 in my analysis, because those are the levels most favorable to aid due to skill proficiency increases).
Level based DCs of course entirely kill aid, but if you start with DC 15 and bump it up for each repeated aid it's not so good either. The first aid is fine, but how long you can continue using aid is seriously hampered, depending on your level and how invested you are in the skill. For the average build, this doesn't really matter - how often are you rolling aid more than once in a fight anyways? But for a build that has specced into aid, and spent resources on that, you're hurting them a lot. If you have i.e.
Honestly I don't think I've *ever* seen anyone use scaling aid DCs. Everyone I've seen has either had a knee jerk reaction to an autosuceed roll that looks OP as f$$~ on the surface, or understands that the roll pretty much *has* to auto succeed because of the mathematics of adding a bonus onto a roll that only does anything if someone rolls a result that would be changed by it, which the vast majority of the time they won't. There's a reason the DC was reduced in the remaster.
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As shown by the numerous examples of unpoachable spells you’ve just listed, they’re really not. Many focus spells cannot be poached, so why does it need to be open season for the Psychic’s amps? For that matter, what difference would it make to you if you only take the dedication for the focus point, when you could just pick Blessed One?
I wouldn't call one class's focus cantrips (which wouldn't even grant a focus point when poaching), and a single focus spell from another as "numerous" but sure.
And the reason I don't just take blessed one is simple. You can't take blessed one with level 9 multitalented or ancient elf's bonus feat. Not like I'm spending an even level class feat slot on it when there are other archetypes that tend to offer better build benefits over the whole archetype (example: champion on many melee fighter builds) or it's a good class feat level.
I wouldn't call one class's focus cantrips (which wouldn't even grant a focus point when poaching), and a single focus spell from another as "numerous" but sure.
A single focus spell, you say? Sounds like a count is in order! Here's my count of unpoachable focus spells in Pathfinder:
For a total of 77 unpoachable focus spells. Sounds pretty numerous to me!
You can call it whatever you like, it's pretty obvious that not every focus spell is poachable, and in fact entire categories of focus spells are completely locked out of multiclass access. This to me pretty strongly suggests that not every focus spell needs to be poachable, nor should every focus spell be poachable either.
And the reason I don't just take blessed one is simple. You can't take blessed one with level 9 multitalented or ancient elf's bonus feat. Not like I'm spending an even level class feat slot on it when there are other archetypes that tend to offer better build benefits over the whole archetype (example: champion on many melee fighter builds) or it's a good class feat level.
Hold up: how are you still struggling to have a third Focus Point by level 9? Even with just the Champion archetype, you can take Devout Magic at level 4 for that extra Focus Point. In fact, even a Wizard, arguably the caster who has the hardest time getting that third Focus Point, can just take Blessed One and Advanced School Spell to have a full focus pool by level 8. I'm not really buying this narrative that the Psychic archetype does this necessary service to the community in providing an extra Focus Point.
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A single focus spell, you say? Sounds like a count is in order! Here's my count of unpoachable focus spells in Pathfinder:
* 16 hex cantrips.
* 13 vessel spells.
* 12 greater revelation spells.
* 12 deeper and deepest psi cantrips, along with their amps.
* 5 qi spells.
* 4 composition spells.
* 4 devotion spells.
* 4 order spells.
* 2 additional hex spells, patron's puppet and phase familiar.
* 2 additional amps.
* 2 link spells, evolution surge and boost eidolon.
* And a partridge in a pear tree1 conflux spell.For a total of 77 unpoachable focus spells. Sounds pretty numerous to me!
The witch cantrips that don't give a point
The animistThe high level focus spells that were never a part of this conversation because they have never ever been able to be taken, as opposed to all the low level poachable stuff that has been available to be taken from classes since launch. I really didn't think I'd actually have to specify that these were never in the running for consideration unlike most of the low level stuff.
Aside from that, yeah good catches. Completely forgot about some of those. Witch especially since the initial focus spell so rarely gets used. The other psi amps don't grant focus points though afaik.
Hold up: how are you still struggling to have a third Focus Point by level 9? Even with just the Champion archetype, you can take Devout Magic at level 4 for that extra Focus Point. In fact, even a Wizard, arguably the caster who has the hardest time getting that third Focus Point, can just take Blessed One and Advanced School Spell to have a full focus pool by level 8. I'm not really buying this narrative that the Psychic archetype does this necessary service to the community in providing an extra Focus Point.
Well if we're looking at that fighter for example: Vicious swing (if resist is ever a problem)+elf champ dedication at 2, LoH at 4, reaction at 6 and then if you go the auto-trip route slam down at 8 before tactical reflexes at 10/12 and greater slam at 10/12 or if you're looking to use berms later you take the shoving feats, etc. Psychic at 9 is just a free point.
Or rogue. Blessed one at 2, mercy at 4, gang up at 6, opportune backstab at 8, debilitations at 10, prep at 12 and you can keep going but hey, free psychic at 9 gets you that 3rd point.
Or bard. Elf Swashbuckler+reach spell at 2, one for all at 4, 6 is dirge, 8 is fortissimo and 9 gets me a 3rd point. Mostly to triple fortissimo or follow up an expired lingering with double fortissimo.
Or maybe monk. Student of perfection at 2, heavenseeker at 4 for two focus points. At 6 you have a choice between a 3rd focus spell, stand still or heaven's thunder and 8 adds wolf drag for the auto-trip. But, thanks to Psychic we also have the option of taking the point at 6 and retraining to something more useful later when we hit 9. You then have the option to pick up psi strikes and use the psi shield (non-focus vetsion) to trigger it for some extra damage to go with your 3 inner upheavals/ki strikes. Note: half-elf to ignore int/cha requirement
And most non-free archetype builds will end up doing something along these lines. Archer builds are really the only ones that might rush psychic I think. Magus and eldritch archers for IW and regular archers for reaction guidance, if they didn't opt for rogue sneak attack or ranger gravity weapon instead. Archers will generally take gunslinger eventually to access fake out. If you don't take it early, then that's what I'd put in the 9 slot.
The witch cantrips that don't give a point
Focus cantrips are still focus spells. Why feel the need to move the goalposts all of a sudden?
The animist
The high level focus spells that were never a part of this conversation because they have never ever been able to be taken
Literally none of these focus spells can be taken via multiclassing, is the point. You can split hairs if you want, but even if we discount the high-rank focus spells, that's still 45 spells, by my count still the majority of the aforementioned spells and a numerous quantity.
Aside from that, yeah good catches. Completely forgot about some of those. Witch especially since the initial focus spell so rarely gets used. The other psi amps don't grant focus points though afaik.
Thanks! I personally found a lot of use for patron's puppet, given how it repositions the Witch's familiar as a free action and triggers their ability, and although the Psychic certainly wouldn't gain more Focus Points by dint of being maxed out at 5th level, gaining an amp correlates with gaining a Focus Point, as indicated by the archetype.
Well if we're looking at that fighter for example
I'm sorry, you're trying to max out your focus pool on a fighter? On a rogue? Why? And if this really is your goal, as opposed to picking feats for either class that would actually work with their core playstyle, how did you not find use out of amped guidance?
Or bard.
Maestro for lingering composition at level 1, Fortissimo Composition at level 8, and hey presto, that's 3 Focus Points, with plenty of room for Dirge of Doom. If you're really craving that early maxed-out focus pool, pick a human and get Natural Ambition into Hymn of Healing at level 1.
Or monk.
Qi Spells, Harmonize Self, then Advanced Qi Spells for 3 Focus Points at level 6. That's your three inner upheavals sorted, and if you're in a hurry, you could just pick Blessed One or Student of Perfection as you mention to max out at level 4.
And most non-free archetype builds will end up doing something along these lines.
This is my first time hearing of a Fighter opting into a Psychic just to get maxed-out Focus Points and somehow not finding utility in amping guidance. Not saying you can't or shouldn't do this, just suggesting that maybe the Psychic archetype no longer offering Focus Points isn't necessarily going to dramatically worsen the builds being aimed for here.
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(long quote)
I think there's a little bit of a misunderstanding here. My goal isn't to cap focus points. Not directly, anyway. The goal is a strong character with a good toolbox of options if possible. Adding a focus point and a focus spell with psychic progresses this goal.
Take the monk for example. Yes I want 3 focus points. I also want heaven's thunder for damage. I want stand still for a reaction attack. I might want wolf drag for auto prone. Multitalented psychic lets me get that point and also these other things I want by virtue of not taking up the feat slot. It lets me squeeze just a little bit more value out of the system.
Will I occasionally get value out of reaction guidance, or message or a psi shield or a 100ft teleport? Absolutely. I'm not saying they're useless or anything, not by a long shot. It's just a bonus on top of what I was already doing.
That sort of thing is also why I'm not remotely convinced it's overpowered. It's a common optimization choice, but it doesn't make or break any build. It's essentially free through multitalented and ancient elf and that's pretty much the price I'm willing to pay for it 90% of the time. If psychic weren't a multiclass dedication, it'd see far less use than it does.
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Fighters and rogues don't find use for amped Guidance because they already have common uses for their reaction. Those that don't are mentioned to consider it. They're more likely the beneficiary of guidance than the caster. It's competing with Shield, Warp Step, and Message.
Also this. I personally believe part of a good party and character build is making sure you get your reactions off as often as possible. Otherwise that's just action econ going to waste. Waiting on a maybe amp guidance instead of getting attacks off or actively buffing attacks that themselves might get upgraded off it anyway, just feels like a waste to me.
Will I occasionally get value out of reaction guidance, or message or a psi shield or a 100ft teleport? Absolutely. I'm not saying they're useless or anything, not by a long shot. It's just a bonus on top of what I was already doing.
That sort of thing is also why I'm not remotely convinced it's overpowered.
"I personally pick this archetype just for the extra Focus Point on my lay on hands x3 Fighter, therefore it can't possibly be overpowered in any way" is such a ridiculous argument I'm struggling to see how it can be taken seriously. By that same token, we'd still have the pre-nerf Gnome Flickmace around just because some guy showed up with some crappy Striking Wizard build that doesn't make the most of that weapon. Just because you make minimal use of the archetype for your niche martial build does not prevent the archetype from providing focus spells that are far above the curve, and that synergize notoriously strongly with other classes.
Also this. I personally believe part of a good party and character build is making sure you get your reactions off as often as possible. Otherwise that's just action econ going to waste. Waiting on a maybe amp guidance instead of getting attacks off or actively buffing attacks that themselves might get upgraded off it anyway, just feels like a waste to me.
I'd be keenly interested to see what play at your table looks like, because even with a Fighter and a Champion in my party, neither were guaranteed to pop their reactions every round. Meanwhile, the casters who did in fact take amped guidance had very little competition for their reaction, such that even if they weren't always popping that reaction all the time either, they had ample opportunity to change the result of rolls with minimal effort, and to major effect. The fact that you're claiming you're triggering your reactions all the time while also landing +3/+4 Aid bonuses on the regular raises an eyebrow.
I never said it doesn't happen, what I said was please stop using it as a stalking horse. You keep trying to make it seem that everyone who plays a magus will take the MCD like it's gospel. And the you pointing out the one time I took it and ignoring the 5 times I didn't says something
I'm sorry, but you're the one obsessing over what I'm saying right now when I'm not even the only one pointing to this extremely obvious synergy. In fact, it's mentioned in the first line of this thread's OP. You're the one demanding collated mass play statistics from some rando on an internet forum when you know such a request is impossible to fulfill, a request that's all the more disingenuous when you yourself have used that combo by your own admission. It doesn't matter how many times you claim to have picked a Magus without the archetype either, the fact remains that the synergy is both obvious and strong, and if you want to pretend it doesn't exist, that's your problem and not mine. I will therefore keep "using it as a stalking horse" in your own words, i.e. stating the obvious in a thread where it's relevant, and the more you keep demanding me to stop doing so, the happier I'll be to keep pointing out the fact that the Psychic Dedication has a notoriously strong synergy with the Magus that causes the two to be frequently picked together, as has happened at my own table.
The thing about the magus and spell attack roll focus spells as a whole is that the remaster made them too good of a resource to pass on at all. The magus is not a class designed to be using 3 focus points every encounter of every day and has to be remastered with that consideration in mind. Imaginary weapon nor the psychic dedication are the source of that problem.
The psychic dedication just also has to deal with the fact that focus spells are now very often a 3x an encounter resource for everyone and that can quickly make them something players try to find ways to use three times an encounter instead of just once.
The old system of refocusing focus spells was clunky, but it did make having focus spells much less of a “figure out how to use this as often as possible” resource. The problem with amps in particular is that the cantrips that use them are so diverse in action usage that almost any character can find one that is useful. It’s a lot of one action or reaction cantrips and a couple powerful attacks, and the MC isn’t limited to just one cantrip they can amp in nearly the same way that other classes hand out focus spells. It’s not really an issue of any one amped cantrip, it’s an issue of the remastered game amping the utility of amps.
I still don’t think the solution needs to be no amps ever, but they can’t just be regular focus spells that any class can cast 3 times every encounter because their repeatability was a psychic class niche that no longer exists.
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I wouldn't call one class's focus cantrips (which wouldn't even grant a focus point when poaching), and a single focus spell from another as "numerous" but sure.A single focus spell, you say? Sounds like a count is in order! Here's my count of unpoachable focus spells in Pathfinder:
* 16 hex cantrips.
* 13 vessel spells.
* 12 greater revelation spells.
* 12 deeper and deepest psi cantrips, along with their amps.
* 5 qi spells.
* 4 composition spells.
* 4 devotion spells.
* 4 order spells.
* 2 additional hex spells, patron's puppet and phase familiar.
* 2 additional amps.
* 2 link spells, evolution surge and boost eidolon.
* And a partridge in a pear tree1 conflux spell.For a total of 77 unpoachable focus spells. Sounds pretty numerous to me!
You can call it whatever you like, it's pretty obvious that not every focus spell is poachable, and in fact entire categories of focus spells are completely locked out of multiclass access. This to me pretty strongly suggests that not every focus spell needs to be poachable, nor should every focus spell be poachable either.
Ok but what percentage of focus spells is that and how many are unpoachable just because they’re from a feat higher than level 10, which I could be intentional non-poachability but is probably just them being high level for other reasons.
That's just it and my point at your table. I'm not the only one who has pointed out for as much as that combo is talked about it's not been seen as much in actual play as you are trying to make it seem. I didn't deny there is great synergy there only that unless you are strictly playing for optimization it's not an auto pick for Magi. Personally I see the magus as one of the best classes for targeting weaknesses, as by 4th you could easily have as many as 10 cantrips across 2 traditions.
What's particularly interesting about this is how despite your prior requests for formal data when faced with an argument you disagreed with, you seem all too happy to rely on anecdotal evidence to jump to your own conclusions when it suits you. A handful of people certainly claim to have not experienced this combo, but many more have, so arguing from consensus isn't really a winning strategy here. What makes this even more transparent is that you acknowledge the synergy between the Magus and Psychic Dedication, which makes your attempts to downplay it all the less effective.
And that's really all it boils down to: it doesn't even matter how many people in practice use this synergy; the synergy is patently too good. The fact that it's unbalanced is what matters in a game that aims for balance, which is why people criticize the Exemplar Dedication feat despite the fact that it rarely sees play thanks to how easy it is for a GM to veto the archetype. Given how we all seem to agree that the synergy is strong and there is plenty of evidence to show that this does in fact affect build decisions, I don't see the point in pretending otherwise.
Ok but what percentage of focus spells is that and how many are unpoachable just because they’re from a feat higher than level 10, which I could be intentional non-poachability but is probably just them being high level for other reasons.
Why is percentage relevant to the topic of discussion? Also, why are you asking for a number that was given out in this conversation already? As already established, not only are a great deal many focus spells unpoachable, several types of focus spells are categorically impossible to poach, such as hex cantrips or vessel spells. Clearly, Paizo deems these focus spells powerful or class-defining enough that they shouldn't be given out to anyone else. Given how amps do in fact define the Psychic and are made to be significantly stronger than regular focus spells, I would say that the same ought to apply to those.
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Fake out and one for all aid do go off just about every round. Fake out doesn't even require action setup, just that a martial attacks. One for all also has the benefit of being usable on any non-combat check too, effectively taking the place of the aid exploration action. Even if the gm bumps up the DC, it just means you work in cooperative nature for a +4 to the check. If you're somehow never able to get critical aid on anything, then amp guidance becomes more valuable for the +1 over the status bonus you normally have going.
Champ reaction goes off any time somebody other than the user gets attacked in melee. Always if multiple characters take it. Opportune backstab goes off every time the not-rogue gets a hit. Reactive strike goes off any time an opponent tries to cast, stand from prone or move at all within weapon reach. That's putting aside other defensive reactions you can take too depending on your exact build(shields, nimble dodge and the like). Also reaction spells I guess. For the few good ones that exist.
If your enemies don't get hit or cast or like to stay prone after a trip/slam down/cast down/bola shot/wolf drag/[insert other tripping effect here] please let me know.
And yeah, amp guidance and amp message also exist. Amp message is pretty good since it guarentees a reaction attack.
I do miss flickmace and auto-prone crit spec though. Good times. I still use it on thaumaturge builds.