There don't seem to be any limits, and I'd recommended free-hand weapons in a thread a while back. You could also put the banner on a shield boss or shield spikes for similar results. It leads to odd imagery, a flowing banner hanging from one's hand essentially, but it works. Just remember you wouldn't count as holding the banner whenever your free-hand weapon doesn't count as a weapon. And since Commanders lack damage boosts to Strikes, they're more dependent on weapon size if interested in dealing damage. But I think melee Commander is both more dangerous and less productive than other builds so yeah, a free-hand weapon works fine. Make your impact through your minions, I mean peers and valued party members, that's what Commanders are best at.
Keep in mind, having a banner attached to a pole on your backpack is an option.
Commander's Banner
A commander needs a battle standard to help guide their allies on the field. You start play with a custom banner that you can use to signal allies when using tactics (see below) or to deploy specific abilities. Your banner can be affixed to a weapon or shield you are wielding, attached to a simple pole or handle and held in one hand, or worn affixed to a pole alongside your backpack. Your banner might be a literal flag or pennant, a decorated fan, a personalized totem, or some other highly visible and item of negligible or light Bulk.
Something like this is a valid choice.
Honestly as a GM, I don't really like the idea of the "banner" being attached to most weapons as part of the visual imagery. I would argue that it would even negatively impact your ability to actually use the weapon in most cases except for weapons like polearms and spears.
Pole on your backpack locks you out of all brandish trait actions, so it's not really an option, unless you never want to let allies strike with your tactics.
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Honestly this is where the fantasy and reality collide so much (for me) that it's hard to strike the right balance.
In our world, someone using a banner to direct their allies would pretty much be consumed doing that and only that. They wouldn't also be trying to make attacks themselves, their job is to coordinate.
The question becomes, is a Commander that is only using their banner and related abilities to provide bonuses to their allies doing enough that not making attacks makes sense?
This is the Theme Music Bard problem all over again.
Honestly this is where the fantasy and reality collide so much (for me) that it's hard to strike the right balance.
In our world, someone using a banner to direct their allies would pretty much be consumed doing that and only that. They wouldn't also be trying to make attacks themselves, their job is to coordinate.
The question becomes, is a Commander that is only using their banner and related abilities to provide bonuses to their allies doing enough that not making attacks makes sense?
Not making strikes yourself is probably fine, as long you are letting your teammates perform extra strikes. So, if your banner is just on your backpack, you should be going and hitting stuff yourself.
Not making strikes yourself is probably fine, as long you are letting your teammates perform extra strikes. So, if your banner is just on your backpack, you should be going and hitting stuff yourself.Honestly this is where the fantasy and reality collide so much (for me) that it's hard to strike the right balance.
In our world, someone using a banner to direct their allies would pretty much be consumed doing that and only that. They wouldn't also be trying to make attacks themselves, their job is to coordinate.
The question becomes, is a Commander that is only using their banner and related abilities to provide bonuses to their allies doing enough that not making attacks makes sense?
Sure, but the backpack mounted version is probably removable with an interact action such that it could be brandished if you want. And another interact action to put it on your back if desired.
Yes, not making attacks yourself makes perfect sense. It's more that you're making attacks via proxy, and those attacks are better than yours.
Look at the key Tactic Demoralizing Charge; it gives you two better Strikes (no MAP) and Strides to position your allies (making their turns better) and a fear effect as frosting. It's rather ridiculous IMO, but Paizo's generous to support actions. I imagine many martials would Delay to make better use of it much like for Haste. It does require two melee martial allies for best effect (and in a small party that has ramifications), but it's even worth the two actions if you only get one Stride + Strike out of it, plus another ally could Stride forward.
At 1st, Strike Hard! is like getting a melee attack at range (and again, it's from a PC w/ better Strikes). Fortunate Blow (12th) seems like the only ability making Strikes tempting, ranged ones that is. A Commander should have better actions to take than moving (except to keep allies in their Banner aura) and isn't built that tough (even feebler if they had to invest in Str on top of Int). If one does use their shield to survive, that hurts both actions and damage (though if you have enough allies who can benefit from it, Shields Up! does recoup those actions and more for the party as a whole). Of course Shields Up! works fine for a non-striker too; may as well have a shield if Bulk's fine.
If one wants to build a striking Commander they're much better off building a martial class PC w/ MCD Commander. This suits the classic fantasy imagery better, i.e. the class's iconic's backstory that reads more like a Barbarian w/ MCD Commander.
I would agree that a "Commander" that wants to strike is probably better off playing a a fighter or barbarian that takes the commander dedication.
A pure commander is typically going to have much better things to do than strike themselves.
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I would agree that a "Commander" that wants to strike is probably better off playing a a fighter or barbarian that takes the commander dedication.
A pure commander is typically going to have much better things to do than strike themselves.
Allies can only respond to one tactic a round and you can only hand out one additional reaction (later two). It's not like you can just spam tactics with no restrictions. I think in most cases two actions satiates most value from tactics on a turn, and the obvious third action is to get that map-0 in with your own weapon.
This isn't to say you can't make a good strikeless commander but I doubt that's usually the best path. A map-0 attack from a martial is a lot to give up.
I do think this depends a lot on your teammates though, if they don't have good reactions of their own more tactics does start to look more appealing because you get good value out of reaching past the 1-2 free ones per round. Commander is kinda hard to talk about because it's so dependent on party comp. You just wouldn't take the shields up tactic unless you're in a party with a shield user, and this also means you yourself want to use a shield to be one additional benefactor (though you won't want to do shield block). Same for reload.
Since you can use them on one handed or two handed weapons, what is this limitation trying to prevent? Just to make sure you don't have two free hands? To what point?
I have an idea for a character who uses their banner on a natural weapon, there are still a good number of non brandish tactics, but I wonder why? What could you do with handless brandish that would warrant such a restriction?
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I would agree that a "Commander" that wants to strike is probably better off playing a a fighter or barbarian that takes the commander dedication.
A pure commander is typically going to have much better things to do than strike themselves.
Allies can only respond to one tactic a round and you can only hand out one additional reaction (later two). It's not like you can just spam tactics with no restrictions. I think in most cases two actions satiates most value from tactics on a turn, and the obvious third action is to get that map-0 in with your own weapon.
This isn't to say you can't make a good strikeless commander but I doubt that's usually the best path. A map-0 attack from a martial is a lot to give up.
I do think this depends a lot on your teammates though, if they don't have good reactions of their own more tactics does start to look more appealing because you get good value out of reaching past the 1-2 free ones per round. Commander is kinda hard to talk about because it's so dependent on party comp. You just wouldn't take the shields up tactic unless you're in a party with a shield user, and this also means you yourself want to use a shield to be one additional benefactor (though you won't want to do shield block). Same for reload.
It's true that a lot of value of a commander depends on party size and composition. The commander is an exceptional 5th person in a party, but I think is a challenge in a 4 person party. If the archetypical party is fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard (or more rightly in this edition sorcerer) and you try to replace one of those with with Commander.....it's hard to say you should replace wizard or cleric. And if you replace either the fighter or rogue you diminish the actual benefit the commander brings because there's less martial character to take advantage of it.
On the commanders actions though, even if you do have 1 unspoken for action, I think a fair number of turns are going to be spent moving to keep team mates in range. And you could do something like Bon Mot to help casters.
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Yeah, "3rd action should be Strike" (for a melee build) presupposes the Commander's in position, has built & equipped for it, and lacks enough allies to make a 1-action Tactic worthwhile. I'd say it also relies on using a two-handed weapon since they lack a damage boost. All of that, then sure, one should Strike/round. But the odds of payoff + opportunity cost don't feel worth the investment, and that's not counting the competing 3rd actions available (IF one doesn't already have to move for one's Banner to work), i.e. Bon Mot as Claxon mentioned or commanding one's animal or others from the class feats. If I did end up in the thick of things I'd rather Raise a Shield or Aid or maybe Battle Medicine.
A ranged build is more feasible, though the damage remains mediocre. But hey, it's at range so it's consistent and fills an important niche in some terrains & battles. It trades out cashing in on Bulwark, but pure Dex is ultimately better anyway.
As for running out of Reactions to pass out, I think most martials would prefer a Stride + guaranteed Strike attempt over no Stride + possible Strike attempt. And one can give that bonus Reaction to any such exceptional PC.
While there are few reasons to have two hands free, there are many actions worth having a hand free. If one hand's already accounted for, then having one's Banner on a Free-Hand weapon in the other adds utility.
OrochiFuror, "natural weapon" is a PF1 designation that might lead to thinking an unarmed attack counts as a weapon in PF2. It doesn't, so you can't put your Banner on it (w/o GM permission of course).
I would agree that a "Commander" that wants to strike is probably better off playing a a fighter or barbarian that takes the commander dedication.
A pure commander is typically going to have much better things to do than strike themselves.
Allies can only respond to one tactic a round and you can only hand out one additional reaction (later two). It's not like you can just spam tactics with no restrictions. I think in most cases two actions satiates most value from tactics on a turn, and the obvious third action is to get that map-0 in with your own weapon.
This isn't to say you can't make a good strikeless commander but I doubt that's usually the best path. A map-0 attack from a martial is a lot to give up.
I do think this depends a lot on your teammates though, if they don't have good reactions of their own more tactics does start to look more appealing because you get good value out of reaching past the 1-2 free ones per round. Commander is kinda hard to talk about because it's so dependent on party comp. You just wouldn't take the shields up tactic unless you're in a party with a shield user, and this also means you yourself want to use a shield to be one additional benefactor (though you won't want to do shield block). Same for reload.
It's true that a lot of value of a commander depends on party size and composition. The commander is an exceptional 5th person in a party, but I think is a challenge in a 4 person party. If the archetypical party is fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard (or more rightly in this edition sorcerer) and you try to replace one of those with with Commander.....it's hard to say you should replace wizard or cleric. And if you replace either the fighter or rogue you diminish the actual benefit the commander brings because there's less martial character to take advantage of it.
On the commanders actions though, even if you do have 1 unspoken for action, I think a fair number of turns are going to be spent moving to...
I can see that before quickness pots come online, after that your definitely want a weapon as moving is handled (moving twice also is because you can use spring heels and then attack with the quickened action)
I can see that before quickness pots come online, after that your definitely want a weapon as moving is handled (moving twice also is because you can use spring heels and then attack with the quickened action)
Strangely, my group has never really used many consumables, especially potions of quickness.
And as a GM, I'd probably limit their availability (not unavailable, but not available in quantities that everybody can have one for multiple combats per day).
I can see that before quickness pots come online, after that your definitely want a weapon as moving is handled (moving twice also is because you can use spring heels and then attack with the quickened action)Strangely, my group has never really used many consumables, especially potions of quickness.
And as a GM, I'd probably limit their availability (not unavailable, but not available in quantities that everybody can have one for multiple combats per day).
By the time I’m 13-14th level I can call up a potion brewer and contract him to brew me as many potions as I want. If we’re being realistic I should get a bulk discount for being a reliable customer, but whatever I can pay 1.1 times price if that’s necessary. Maybe that compensates for risk I die before buying the next batch or something.
I can see access issues if this the middle of nowhere but any large city has people who can make quickness pots or can subcontract someone who can make them.
I can see that before quickness pots come online, after that your definitely want a weapon as moving is handled (moving twice also is because you can use spring heels and then attack with the quickened action)Strangely, my group has never really used many consumables, especially potions of quickness.
And as a GM, I'd probably limit their availability (not unavailable, but not available in quantities that everybody can have one for multiple combats per day).
By the time I’m 13-14th level I can call up a potion brewer and contract him to brew me as many potions as I want. If we’re being realistic I should get a bulk discount for being a reliable customer, but whatever I can pay 1.1 times price if that’s necessary. Maybe that compensates for risk I die before buying the next batch or something.
I can see access issues if this the middle of nowhere but any large city has people who can make quickness pots or can subcontract someone who can make them.
You can say that all you like, but my answer as a GM is no.
If you want to brew them yourself it's a different story (you also wont be able to craft enough to quicken the entire party without lots of downtime), but as a GM it's my prerogative to limit what I see as power creep. From my perspective its entirely reasonable to say no you don't have access to as many potions of quickness as you want.
I'm generally pretty accommodating when it comes to accessing magic items. But assuming you have an endless supply of consumables is not something I'd allow because consumables are overly effective for their cost. Their general constraint is availability or time to craft it yourself, and I'm not throwing those constraints out.
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I can see that before quickness pots come online, after that your definitely want a weapon as moving is handled (moving twice also is because you can use spring heels and then attack with the quickened action)Strangely, my group has never really used many consumables, especially potions of quickness.
And as a GM, I'd probably limit their availability (not unavailable, but not available in quantities that everybody can have one for multiple combats per day).
By the time I’m 13-14th level I can call up a potion brewer and contract him to brew me as many potions as I want. If we’re being realistic I should get a bulk discount for being a reliable customer, but whatever I can pay 1.1 times price if that’s necessary. Maybe that compensates for risk I die before buying the next batch or something.
I can see access issues if this the middle of nowhere but any large city has people who can make quickness pots or can subcontract someone who can make them.
You can say that all you like, but my answer as a GM is no.
If you want to brew them yourself it's a different story (you also wont be able to craft enough to quicken the entire party without lots of downtime), but as a GM it's my prerogative to limit what I see as power creep. From my perspective its entirely reasonable to say no you don't have access to as many potions of quickness as you want.
I'm generally pretty accommodating when it comes to accessing magic items. But assuming you have an endless supply of consumables is not something I'd allow because consumables are overly effective for their cost. Their general constraint is availability or time to craft it yourself, and I'm not throwing those constraints out.
I thought the whole point of common items is that you're allowed to buy them whenever in a settlement of the appropriate level. I refuse to believe that there's nobody in the whole of taldor, or absaolom, or almas that will make me some quickness potions to sell, especially with a preorder. They're a 9th level common item, besides just being common they're also significantly lower than the level of any of those cities.
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Being able to buy it is one thing, being able to buy
4 people * 4 combats/day * 7 of days adventuring = 112 potions
To give you quickened in "every combat" for a week is something that as a GM I'm not considering.
Your expectation is unreasonable.
I might allow you to buy like 20 per week.
Common for an 8th level item is different than common for a 0th level item, much like how common 8th level monsters aren't something hunters commonly run into vs. say boars and bears. And something being available differs from something being available in bulk. How many high level customers are fighting daily (or much, much more)?
AND we're talking about the highest levels here when such items become affordable to the PC. That's late IMO for this melee build to come online...for a basic Strike. I'd expect to see Heightened Haste showing up around these levels instead anyway (though maybe not so much in a party with a Commander who can get those martials into position).
Availability & lateness aside, one also needs a free hand holding the potion and to spend an action drinking it. Both have ramifications on build and tactics that the potion and its Strike don't warrant. Only my martials who already have a free hand would bother, and those with weapons are more likely to carry a Whetstone at the highest levels.
Alley-Oop would change the dynamics, but that's a complex strategy highly dependent on the party.
Being able to buy it is one thing, being able to buy
4 people * 4 combats/day * 7 of days adventuring = 112 potions
To give you quickened in "every combat" for a week is something that as a GM I'm not considering.
Your expectation is unreasonable.
I might allow you to buy like 20 per week.
Yeah common means you can generally find a thing at a settlement. It does not indicate they have a walmart levels of supply of that thing. Most potion makers are probably doing small batches of a lot of different things and not giga batches of one specific potion unless they have an actual order up front to do so. if you are just passing through you may be able some of a particular potion but if you want 20+ you are going to need to put in an order/orders and wait a few weeks.
Common for an 8th level item is different than common for a 0th level item, much like how common 8th level monsters aren't something hunters commonly run into vs. say boars and bears. And something being available differs from something being available in bulk. How many high level customers are fighting daily (or much, much more)?
AND we're talking about the highest levels here when such items become affordable to the PC. That's late IMO for this melee build to come online...for a basic Strike. I'd expect to see Heightened Haste showing up around these levels instead anyway (though maybe not so much in a party with a Commander who can get those martials into position).
Availability & lateness aside, one also needs a free hand holding the potion and to spend an action drinking it. Both have ramifications on build and tactics that the potion and its Strike don't warrant. Only my martials who already have a free hand would bother, and those with weapons are more likely to carry a Whetstone at the highest levels.
Alley-Oop would change the dynamics, but that's a complex strategy highly dependent on the party.
Heightened haste is usually better if you have a caster who just won initiative, but if you don’t quickness potion are better. And you don’t need a free hand for them, they fit into potion patches.
To be clear I don’t think quickness potions/7th rank haste are what make striking on commander a good idea, I think that’s already the case from the start, but they overdetermine things once you can afford/cast them easily. So around 13th level.
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Being able to buy it is one thing, being able to buy
4 people * 4 combats/day * 7 of days adventuring = 112 potions
To give you quickened in "every combat" for a week is something that as a GM I'm not considering.
Your expectation is unreasonable.
I might allow you to buy like 20 per week.
Actually that seems like a completely reasonable amount to find in absalom or another large city. They’re one of the best potions, supply should be high because crafters know people want them. I could see the price getting driven up a bit by the sudden demand surge I guess. Regardless, if you have any significant amount of downtime the supply will rapidly reach that number once you put down your advanced deposits with some crafters. If you really want to entice them pay double, that’ll mean you’ll want to push regularly use back a level or so but if necessary we can just effectively bribe them.
Hell there’s probably some brokerage company already holding on to a bunch of commonly used consumables, more than happy to sell them all for a small cut. “Somebody really needs a lot of consumable x because there’s a war on and their strike team needs to go hard for the next two weeks” seems like the sort of thing that would happen a lot on golarion. They’d only hold the more common stuff but quickness potions are definitely on that short list along with… idk, first rank heal scrolls (heal all your soldiers more often).
Being able to buy it is one thing, being able to buy
4 people * 4 combats/day * 7 of days adventuring = 112 potions
To give you quickened in "every combat" for a week is something that as a GM I'm not considering.
Your expectation is unreasonable.
I might allow you to buy like 20 per week.
Actually that seems like a completely reasonable amount to find in absalom or another large city. They’re one of the best potions, supply should be high because crafters know people want them. I could see the price getting driven up a bit by the sudden demand surge I guess. Regardless, if you have any significant amount of downtime the supply will rapidly reach that number once you put down your advanced deposits with some crafters. If you really want to entice them pay double, that’ll mean you’ll want to push regularly use back a level or so but if necessary we can just effectively bribe them.
Hell there’s probably some brokerage company already holding on to a bunch of commonly used consumables, more than happy to sell them all for a small cut. “Somebody really needs a lot of consumable x because there’s a war on and their strike team needs to go hard for the next two weeks” seems like the sort of thing that would happen a lot on golarion. They’d only hold the more common stuff but quickness potions are definitely on that short list along with… idk, first rank heal scrolls (heal all your soldiers more often).
You can say or argue whatever you like.
The short answer is not in my games, and its up to every individual GM to decide what is acceptable. I would personally discourage other GMs from allowing the above.
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Why wouldn't you allow it though? Mass purchasing of cheap consumables is pretty common with higher levels for stuff like silversheen, bombs for double slice weapon siphon builds, hour long energy mutagens, etc. Do you reject those things too or is it something specific about haste patches you don't like?
Define "mass purchasing". Again, in general I'm not going to allow for the purchase of hundreds of any of those items.
I might consider an essentially unlimited purchasable quantity with very low items, but I've never had to evaluate it because I've never had players attempt it.
The issue here is that consumables are TOO effective if you can just have an unlimited number of them.
I guess to answer your question, for me it's definitely not just potion of quickness.
OrochiFuror, "natural weapon" is a PF1 designation that might lead to thinking an unarmed attack counts as a weapon in PF2. It doesn't, so you can't put your Banner on it (w/o GM permission of course).
I never played PF1, so no, your assumption is wrong.
The question is why? Why does it require a hand, but not to a point you can't strike with that hand or use a shield? You can't use a claw attack but you can use a sword.You can put your banner on just about anything you want, so long as people can see it, you just can't use brandish actions with it unless its in hand.
What are the limits on brandish trying to accomplish or prevent with working this way.
It's not a big deal as a second look over my build there's only 2 or 3 abilities with brandish that I would miss, everything else still works.
Feels strange that a fan works but hand wraps don't, banner streamers on your wrists feels fitting for this sort of thing to me.
On the side topic of sales, it would be really stupid for any shop to not try and fulfill a reasonable order of things they normally carry, with reasonable increasing after multiple purchases. Shops don't want to miss potential sales like that, supplies might be a limiting factor though.
Let's imagine that double slicer. You happen to finish an adventure with a nice chunk of change but nothing useful to buy at that level. So instead, you decide to set yourself up until level 20 and buy a fat stack of bombs for your siphons. It's 3gp per bomb. 300gp is peanuts at higher levels. You could easily set yourself up with 100 bombs in a single purchase and store then in some sleeves of storage.
Melee martial? Well they need energy mutagens for that +d4 or +6 damage. If you often have time to drop 10 minute prebuffs you can buy hundreds of 12gp mutagens that last 10 minutes fairly early in your career. If not, you'll need to wait until late game inflation really hits to mass purchase the 300gp version. Now say you have two melee in the party. Well, that's a lot of mutagens.
Silversheen? 6gp. You can buy a 100 stack of those too just in case. Cheaper than buying a silver weapon and the hour long duration beats that new item.
Quickness potion? The rare item everyone in the party might want. And therefore, one every member of the party might want a nice stack of. Just like the mutagens and silversheens that means stacks upon stacks once you hit a high enough level that you can just buy a whole career's worth at once.
Now, is the example of 4 fights a day, every day, for a week a little extreme? Yeah, but that could easily be the number of fights you have over the next several levels. So why not see if you can budget for high quickened uptime across the party. And if it is just some fodder encounter, you hold the potion. No harm, no foul.
Edit: let me change the perspective a little. Imagine a 4500gp permanent item that said 1 action, once per 10 minutes, quicken self (strike+stride only). Price equal to 50 quickness potions. Likely enough to last your whole career, and then some. This would be a great pickup, and probably better than most real printed items. It's even better as potions since you don't have to buy them in crazy bulk. But you can, same way you might buy that 4500gp item.
OrochiFuror, "natural weapon" is a PF1 designation that might lead to thinking an unarmed attack counts as a weapon in PF2. It doesn't, so you can't put your Banner on it (w/o GM permission of course).I never played PF1, so no, your assumption is wrong.
The question is why? Why does it require a hand, but not to a point you can't strike with that hand or use a shield? You can't use a claw attack but you can use a sword.
You can put your banner on just about anything you want, so long as people can see it, you just can't use brandish actions with it unless its in hand.
What are the limits on brandish trying to accomplish or prevent with working this way.It's not a big deal as a second look over my build there's only 2 or 3 abilities with brandish that I would miss, everything else still works.
Feels strange that a fan works but hand wraps don't, banner streamers on your wrists feels fitting for this sort of thing to me.
On the side topic of sales, it would be really stupid for any shop to not try and fulfill a reasonable order of things they normally carry, with reasonable increasing after multiple purchases. Shops don't want to miss potential sales like that, supplies might be a limiting factor though.
Um, okay, but why you called an unarmed attack a natural weapon isn't the point, is it? It's that unarmed attacks are not weapons, natural or otherwise. And neither are Handwraps, though they often get explicit exceptions to qualify in specific instances. Not so in this case and I'd figured you'd want to know.
As for Paizo's reasoning why, naturally you'd have to ask Paizo or bypass them and ask your GM to bend the rules. Paizo encourages tables having authority anyway so they don't have to address every specific instance, like say antlers which could easily hold a Banner (it seems) or tiny weapons where a GM might disallow it (as another commenter said they'd do).
If you're not going to use Brandish Tactics, consider Plant Banner.
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"Edit: let me change the perspective a little. Imagine a 4500gp permanent item that said 1 action, once per 10 minutes, quicken self (strike+stride only). Price equal to 50 quickness potions. Likely enough to last your whole career, and then some. This would be a great pickup, and probably better than most real printed items. It's even better as potions since you don't have to buy them in crazy bulk. But you can, same way you might buy that 4500gp item."
-gesalt
I'd buy that item, and (if it weren't so high a level item) would use it more than 50 times because I'd spam it pre-combat at most doors. :-)
Saying it's better than most real printed items highlights the problem rather than supports allowing the bulk purchase. IMO this goes back more to the Potion Patch though, one of those Treasure Vault items that should've been caught in editing and made Uncommon if unchanged (if only for the same reasons as Gloves of Storing/Retrieval Belts).
Look at Propulsive Boots, 3,000 g.p. for 1/day! Level 13, no Strikes, & Invested too (even though yes, it does have a mediocre speed boost). That's the baseline to measure against.
--
As for availability, the potions being 9th level is akin to saying that several US states don't carry the item, many more just in their largest city, but in New York or L.A. you can find it...in whatever quantity you want? These are elite items made by a limited tier of craftspeople. High demand would worsen supply issues because suppliers can't just hire a guy, not even train someone in-house to that level. And most APs/home campaigns operate in limited time frames, many taking PCs to cities they haven't visited/set up business relations in.
Sure, maybe that's too granular when Paizo made a point of simplifying buying, but GMs do have to consider verisimilitude otherwise PCs could build insta-armies with their gold. (Lord knows a bunch of low-level individuals armed with splash weapons can obliterate many Troops).
To clarify, I'm not against the ideas to overcome the issues, most of which would work in a higher-level world (i.e. Forgotten Realms w/ its hordes of archmagi), but I think it's unfeasible in most situations. And given the undue impact mechanically, not worth allowing anyway.
(Heck, I'm now of a mind to automatically make Treasure Vault items Uncommon with how many similar instances there have been.)
It's that unarmed attacks are not weapons, natural or otherwise.
They're also not attacks... and they function like weapons in every way except in ways specific to weapons themselves.
The terminology is kind of terrible, tbh. Can't blame people too much for struggling with the wording a bit.
It's that unarmed attacks are not weapons, natural or otherwise.They're also not attacks... and they function like weapons in every way except in ways specific to weapons themselves.
The terminology is kind of terrible, tbh. Can't blame people too much for struggling with the wording a bit.
Just informing. No blame. It is something Fighters need to pay attention to too, and Twin Takedown Rangers. Hmm, "they function like weapons in every way except..." might even be misleading since those exceptions are numerous.
I think Paizo kinda wrote themselves into a corner, running out of synonyms that distinguish nouns from verbs without getting too esoteric. "Unarmed type of attack" is too clunky, and apparently they wanted to avoid "weapon" on purpose though it worked as PF1 jargon and likely what a nature documentary would call them.
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let me change the perspective a little. Imagine a 4500gp permanent item that said 1 action, once per 10 minutes, quicken self (strike+stride only). Price equal to 50 quickness potions. Likely enough to last your whole career, and then some. This would be a great pickup, and probably better than most real printed items. It's even better as potions since you don't have to buy them in crazy bulk. But you can, same way you might buy that 4500gp item.
With that perspective, I'm even more confident I shouldn't allow buying quantities of potions anything in the hundreds. Thanks for reaffirming my view.
let me change the perspective a little. Imagine a 4500gp permanent item that said 1 action, once per 10 minutes, quicken self (strike+stride only). Price equal to 50 quickness potions. Likely enough to last your whole career, and then some. This would be a great pickup, and probably better than most real printed items. It's even better as potions since you don't have to buy them in crazy bulk. But you can, same way you might buy that 4500gp item.With that perspective, I'm even more confident I shouldn't allow buying quantities ofpotionsanything in the hundreds. Thanks for reaffirming my view.
Well, what world your cap on available consumables be then? 10 at a time? 20? Or mere single digits for the town to envy as you buy them?
Though I suppose there's always crafting during downtime if the campaign allows it. Makes me miss old alch archetype and its ability to mass produce cheap goods.
Saying it's better than most real printed items highlights the problem rather than supports allowing the bulk purchase. IMO this goes back more to the Potion Patch though, one of those Treasure Vault items that should've been caught in editing and made Uncommon if unchanged (if only for the same reasons as Gloves of Storing/Retrieval Belts).
I thought the rarity system explicitly *wasn’t* supposed to be about in combat power.
I thought the rarity system explicitly *wasn’t* supposed to be about in combat power.Saying it's better than most real printed items highlights the problem rather than supports allowing the bulk purchase. IMO this goes back more to the Potion Patch though, one of those Treasure Vault items that should've been caught in editing and made Uncommon if unchanged (if only for the same reasons as Gloves of Storing/Retrieval Belts).
It wasn't supposed to be used that way, but not everyone got that memo and it has ended up being used in that fashion. Though to be clear, not everything that is uncommon or rare is more powerful than average. In fact I would say only a small number of items that have been labeled as uncommon or rare have been stronger than average.
One that comes to mind is the old original version of the gnome flickmace. Pre-change, despite being uncommon a 1 handed 1d8 reach weapon with the old version of the crit spec (didn't have a save) was overall too good. To the point that you ended up with a lot of fighter adopted by gnomes who specialized in flails.
let me change the perspective a little. Imagine a 4500gp permanent item that said 1 action, once per 10 minutes, quicken self (strike+stride only). Price equal to 50 quickness potions. Likely enough to last your whole career, and then some. This would be a great pickup, and probably better than most real printed items. It's even better as potions since you don't have to buy them in crazy bulk. But you can, same way you might buy that 4500gp item.With that perspective, I'm even more confident I shouldn't allow buying quantities ofpotionsanything in the hundreds. Thanks for reaffirming my view.Well, what world your cap on available consumables be then? 10 at a time? 20? Or mere single digits for the town to envy as you buy them?
Though I suppose there's always crafting during downtime if the campaign allows it. Makes me miss old alch archetype and its ability to mass produce cheap goods.
Ballpark that I said earlier was maybe around 20 pieces per week.
Ballpark that I said earlier was maybe around 20 pieces per week.
So you did. Sorry for making you repeat yourself.
Guess I'll need to add this to my list of things to ask or advise asking of GMs to gauge how aggressively good consumables might need to be purchased.
Ballpark that I said earlier was maybe around 20 pieces per week.So you did. Sorry for making you repeat yourself.
Guess I'll need to add this to my list of things to ask or advise asking of GMs to gauge how aggressively good consumables might need to be purchased.
Probably a good idea.
For my group it hasn't come up (a holdover from earlier editions where consumables were rarely effective enough to use to them compared to selling them to get the next permanent effect) but what I have said here is how I would generally handle it. I'd probably end up tweaking some.
If my players collectively insisted on having unlimited consumables available, I'd start tweaking encounters to be more challenging to balance out that consumable access and use to be expected.
I thought the rarity system explicitly *wasn’t* supposed to be about in combat power.Saying it's better than most real printed items highlights the problem rather than supports allowing the bulk purchase. IMO this goes back more to the Potion Patch though, one of those Treasure Vault items that should've been caught in editing and made Uncommon if unchanged (if only for the same reasons as Gloves of Storing/Retrieval Belts).
I hadn't referenced combat power, had I? The Treasure Vault is notorious for its leniency, some have said sloppiness. The updated version fixed some instances thankfully.
In this instance it's about the imbalance of action-item efficiency, mirroring that of the Uncommon gloves/belts I did reference (and the gloves which have long been a staple item). I don't find the Potion Patch particularly powerful, but when a new item changes the metagame so much there should be reservations which I think the Uncommon trait addresses. Hmm, or maybe it is power creep and should be nixed?
Also the narrative-RPGer in me balks at heroes suddenly spamming patches as if it's a fashion fad. If anything, this means wealthy NPCs expecting battle on a given day should also be sporting them, especially those whose tactics mention drinking a potion (like say Invisibility to escape where saving actions and avoiding Reactive Strikes is critical). Giants and others that carry manufactured magic items should want these too for raids, but what are the chances we'll ever a Potion Patch in a published adventure? Practically zero. The fad should've spread far and wide...unless explained by them being Uncommon.
Reminds me of a situation GMing Deadlands where there's a cheap piece of equipment for +1 to a gun's attacks. I said I'd let the PCs buy them if the players let the NPCs equip them. The players refrained.
I hadn't referenced combat power, had I? The Treasure Vault is notorious for its leniency, some have said sloppiness. The updated version fixed some instances thankfully.
In this instance it's about the imbalance of action-item efficiency, mirroring that of the Uncommon gloves/belts I did reference (and the gloves which have long been a staple item). I don't find the Potion Patch particularly powerful, but when a new item changes the metagame so much there should be reservations which I think the Uncommon trait addresses. Hmm, or maybe it is power creep and should be nixed?
Also the narrative-RPGer in me balks at heroes suddenly spamming patches as if it's a fashion fad. If anything, this means wealthy NPCs expecting battle on a given day should also be sporting them, especially those whose tactics mention drinking a potion (like say Invisibility to escape where saving actions and avoiding Reactive Strikes is critical). Giants and others that carry manufactured magic items should want these too for raids, but what are the chances we'll ever a Potion Patch in a published adventure? Practically zero. The fad should've spread far and wide...unless explained by them being Uncommon.
It's like any new technology that sees rapid adoption, no? And why not have NPCs that can afford to equip themselves or all their mooks with them do so? Makes great loot for your players and might encourage them to get used if they see how enemies use them effectively.
Speaking of treasure vault though. Collar of the shifting spider has been pretty useful on monks to fake a sudden charge with lesser drakeheart final surge. Energy mutagen on 1h martials too.
But maybe we should break this off into its own thread. Which consumables to buy and how to milk them for value, or prevent the excessive milking of, seems like a good topic on its own.