I know I am not the first who has noticed this, but the definition of 'Gun' in Operative is a bit too loose.
Operative wrote: Gun: Any ranged weapon with the analog or tech trait. It includes thrown weapons.
So I went to look through the list of weapons that shouldn't be a gun, but are. I was expecting to only find thrown ranged weapons. I found that there currently aren't any thrown ranged weapons. Only some thrown melee weapons. So things like a Knife or an Aucturnite Chackram qualify as guns when they are thrown.
So then I looked to find any weapons that should be a gun, but do not qualify as a gun.
And found one. A Shobhad Longrifle is not a gun. It is a ranged weapon, but it does not have the Analog or Tech traits. At least not according to AoN.
Everything is a ranged weapon when you throw it:
"You can throw this weapon as a ranged attack; it's a ranged weapon when thrown."
So yeah, the Dagger Knife counts as a gun when thrown.
That longrifle might be a mistake.
The Shobhad Longrifle is a hastily ported PF2E weapon, which is why it lacks Analog or Tech. They'll probably fix it if it gets reprinted in another book or adventure.
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The shuriken drone (pg. 262 and 266) is a non-melee thrown ranged weapon. Yes it's a gun.
But as Christopher said, a Knife, an Aucturnite Chakram, a Shooting Starknife, and a Slinging Spear, are also guns when thrown.
When they eventually add an analog bow to Starfinder, that will also be a gun.
And to add to this. Firearms are not guns. So for amusing effect. A Dwarven Scattergun is not a gun, nor is a Big Boom Gun.
I'll reiterate what I've said elsewhere. What mechanical necessity is there for Operatives to only have training with analog and tech weapons? They clearly are not meant to only have training with conventional firearms if they keep classifying non-firearms as guns. Will a crossbow really handle that much differently than a crossbolter? When they add the bow, will it handle that much differently from a bow? Or simply a knife versus a dagger? A shuriken drone likely functions like any normal shuriken, as the "drone" aspect of the shuriken does nothing to make it more accurate, all it does is grant the shuriken the returning property. So the drone shuriken at best functions just as well as a normal shuriken, and at worse, would handle even worse than a normal shuriken due to the added bulk. Does it really make a difference whether the weapon is imbued with magic or magitech? In the end, it still has the Magical trait, so clearly they don't have a specific dislike of magic. At this point, I feel they really should just have proficiency with ranged weapons, instead of "guns," when non guns will be classified as "guns", and guns will be classified as not "guns."
Finoan wrote: I know I am not the first who has noticed this, but the definition of 'Gun' in Operative is a bit too loose.
Operative wrote: Gun: Any ranged weapon with the analog or tech trait. It includes thrown weapons.
So I went to look through the list of weapons that shouldn't be a gun, but are. I was expecting to only find thrown ranged weapons. I found that there currently aren't any thrown ranged weapons. Only some thrown melee weapons. So things like a Knife or an Aucturnite Chackram qualify as guns when they are thrown.
So then I looked to find any weapons that should be a gun, but do not qualify as a gun.
And found one. A Shobhad Longrifle is not a gun. It is a ranged weapon, but it does not have the Analog or Tech traits. At least not according to AoN.
That is correct. I double-checked in the Invasion's Edge Player's Guide because the AoN was missing information, chiefly the damage dice the gun has when the Fatal trait kicks in, but that part matches. The rifle hasn't got the Analog or Tech traits.
I'm in agreement with Justnobodyfkwl about why it may look that way. They copied the weapon over from its original appearance in a PF2E AP and forgot to add the relevant traits. You can tell because of the identical costs, as well as the fact that the long rifle has the Concussive trait, which many projectile weapons in SF2E are lacking for some reason.
moosher12 wrote: What mechanical necessity is there for Operatives to only have training with analog and tech weapons? They clearly are not meant to only have training with conventional firearms if they keep classifying non-firearms as guns. I think that second part is the intent, it just isn't implemented accurately. It is implemented very precisely - there is no ambiguity or uncertainty about what is written or whether a particular weapon does or does not qualify. But precision is not the same as accuracy. It very precisely defines the wrong group of weapons.
If I make an attempt at it, I would define a 'gun' as "A ranged weapon that does not have the Thrown or Propulsive trait."
That would still include the crossbolter and eventually bows. I'm fine with that. It does exclude thrown knives and chakrams and such things, whether they are ranged weapons or not and whether they are archaic or not.
It does have the eyebrow raising result that a shortbow is a gun, but a composite shortbow is not.
You could always add, "or is not from the bow weapon group."
Concussive tends to go on wide round musket balls (or wide cylindrical breaching slugs), while pointed, narrow profile rifled bullets get just flat piercing damage.
moosher12 wrote: When they eventually add an analog bow to Starfinder, that will also be a gun.
And to add to this. Firearms are not guns. So for amusing effect. A Dwarven Scattergun is not a gun, nor is a Big Boom Gun.
There is a decent chance those weapons will be Archaic and Analog.
The Analog Traits says:
Quote: Armor with the analog trait eschews advanced electronics, computers systems, and electric power sources, it was manufactured and calibrated using the latest advanced technology and modern materials. This armor is immune to abilities that target technology. Armor runes don't function on this armor unless this armor also has the archaic trait. Analog armor usually has the exposed trait.
A shield with the analog trait eschews advanced electronics, computers systems, and electric power sources, but was manufactured and calibrated using advanced technology. This shield is immune to abilities that target technology. Shield runes don't function on this shield unless this shield also has the archaic trait.
A weapon with the analog trait eschews advanced electronics, computers systems, and electric power sources but was manufactured and calibrated using advanced technology. This weapon is immune to abilities that target technology. Weapon runes don't function on this weapon unless this weapon also has the archaic trait.
Making it sounds like Analog and Archaic will both be on Archaic Weapons.
It has been that way since the first appereance of Archaic in Playtest. It makes sense to keep weapons clearly on the Tech/Analog axis, even if they are Archaic. Or especially if they are Archaic.
Xenocrat wrote: Concussive tends to go on wide round musket balls (or wide cylindrical breaching slugs), while pointed, narrow profile rifled bullets get just flat piercing damage. I've noticed that too. Feels like a good candidate for a mod, one that grants a weapon the Concussive trait if it doesn't have it already.
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Wait...if that's not a gun in your pocket because it doesn't have the analog or tech traits..then are you just happy to see me?
Christopher#2411504 wrote: There is a decent chance those weapons will be Archaic and Analog. You say that, but: https://aonsrd.com/WeaponDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Bow&Family=None
Starfinder Core Rulebook wrote: Special: Analog, Reload: Modern compound bows are made of aluminum alloys, for superior lightness and durability. The string is made of highperformance polyethylene. Bows fire arrows as ammunition, and they can also be used with grenade arrows for more customized damage and effects. Starfinder 1E has bows. And bows are classified as Analog, not Archaic.
Granted, the Starfriends can change it, but the point is we still have precedent, and this bow is described with modern materials. As for Archaic and Analog traits. It's an open door, but we don't know if it will actually be used until we see an example. As I have no idea how the Starfriends will balance both a suite of runes with a suite of upgrades on the same item, and the clause doesn't mean much until they exercise it by releasing a weapon with both analog and archaic.
Lastly, if a bow had both the archaic and analog traits, a bow would still meet the definition of a "Gun."
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moosher12 wrote: Christopher#2411504 wrote: There is a decent chance those weapons will be Archaic and Analog. You say that, but: https://aonsrd.com/WeaponDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Bow&Family=None
Starfinder 1E has bows. And bows are classified as Analog, not Archaic.
Granted, the Starfriends can change it, but the point is we still have precedent, and this bow is described with modern materials. As for Archaic and Analog traits. It's an open door, but we don't know if it will actually be used until we see an example. As I have no idea how the Starfriends will balance both a suite of runes with a suite of upgrades on the same item, and the clause doesn't mean much until they exercise it by releasing a weapon with both analog and archaic. Probably the difference between a modern compound bow with all the fancy add on's vs an old school stick with a string on it.
kaid wrote: Probably the difference between a modern compound bow with all the fancy add on's vs an old school stick with a string on it. You are forgetting the principle of magical reconditioning of material properties that fantasy weapons would be reliant on.
Which is to say, if an old timey magic compound bow can fire similar arrows to an ultramodern magic compound bow, likely with the same firing arcs, are you really gonna be less trained with the magic one versus the magitech one? Both will be dealing the same damage dice.
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part of me also kind of wonders if this distinction even needs to exist. Like- is there a specific reason we need to worry about operatives with bows or dwarven scatterguns or throwing knives being mislabeled as guns?
The whole premise being created by the weird definition feels suspect to me. Does anything really break if we just say Operatives get ranged weapons?
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Squiggit wrote: Does anything really break if we just say Operatives get ranged weapons? It means that they could use Thrown weapons to add their Strength bonus on top of their class's precision damage boost.
... oh, wait...
moosher12 wrote: Starfinder 1E has bows. And bows are classified as Analog, not Archaic. That does address a thing I said.
The existence of a "Analog" Bow, does not prevent the existence of a "Analog, Archaic" Bow. Even with exactly the same stats, just an extra Trait and a different upgrade path.
Agreed, I don't mind the concept, but the point is in the end, a bow with the analog trait, and a bow with the analog and archaic trait, are both "guns."
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Christopher#2411504 wrote: moosher12 wrote: Starfinder 1E has bows. And bows are classified as Analog, not Archaic. That does address a thing I said.
The existence of a "Analog" Bow, does not prevent the existence of a "Analog, Archaic" Bow. Even with exactly the same stats, just an extra Trait and a different upgrade path. I think the main reason that would be unlikely as having both methods of weapon upgrades both the tech and runes could get confusing.
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Huh??
We already have a crossbow in Starfinder2e. The Crossbolter.
So why would we not eventually (probably sooner rather than later) get a bow or thrown exclusively ranged weapons like a javelin or dart or shuriken?
All of which would likely have the Analog trait (but not the Archaic trait) and would therefore be 'guns'.
kaid wrote: Christopher#2411504 wrote: moosher12 wrote: Starfinder 1E has bows. And bows are classified as Analog, not Archaic. That does address a thing I said.
The existence of a "Analog" Bow, does not prevent the existence of a "Analog, Archaic" Bow. Even with exactly the same stats, just an extra Trait and a different upgrade path. I think the main reason that would be unlikely as having both methods of weapon upgrades both the tech and runes could get confusing. Pretty sure Archaic weapons aren't supposed to work with the Upgrade system? Even if they happen to also be Analog.
They just apparently forgot to write that. I reported that in the Errata Thread.
This would be an amusing scenario, because what would be the limiter to just applying both the analog and archaic traits to ALL Pathfinder items.
Christopher#2411504 wrote: Pretty sure Archaic weapons aren't supposed to work with the Upgrade system? Even if they happen to also be Analog.
They just apparently forgot to write that. I reported that in the Errata Thread.
I don't think it needs to be written. That is what the Archaic trait already says.
The Archaic trait doesn't stop saying what it says or forbidding what it forbids or allowing what it allows just because another trait exists on the same item. That is how traits work.
No, there is no case where a weapon should ever qualify for both upgraded versions from Starfinder and runes from Pathfinder. Either the weapon is from Starfinder and does not have the Archaic trait and therefore has upgrade versions, or it is from Pathfinder and does have the Archaic trait and uses runes.
Archaic swords and clubs from Pathfinder probably should have the Analog trait. And I don't think that having that trait would hurt anything.
Honestly, it would be a simple conversion too. Swap Archaic for Analog, and grant one upgrade slot at level 0. Apart from the Aeon Rifle, this seems to be universal, so it should be a safe trend 99% of the time.
Let's use Warframe as an example since we are getting the Adventure in 2 months. In Warframe, you can use a giant hammer called the Fragor. Definitely has the aesthetic of an analog weapon. Would fit pretty well into Starfinder, but it'd likely have the statistics of a Maul. So why not just give a Maul the Analog trait and convert it to using upgrades.
Though, there is another concept I've been musing. You see, the benefit of the Starfinder upgrade system is that each weapon can host a number of upgrade slots that are easy to swap without spending money, but at the cost of making magical rune-equivalent abilities compete with more mundane upgrades.
What if Paizo simply made all Weapon and Armor Runes into upgrades and added the Tech trait, and then focused on writing the more tech-themed abilities that compete with them instead? Some runes are already just converted into upgrades anyway. All you gotta say is they figured out the technology to concentrate the magic previously stored in runes into magitech components, the same way they innovated scrolls into spell gems. Can even make a single general-use upgrade, call it a Runic Converter or something like that, that simplifies this process.
moosher12 wrote: Though, there is another concept I've been musing. You see, the benefit of the Starfinder upgrade system is that each weapon can host a number of upgrade slots that are easy to swap without spending money, but at the cost of making magical rune-equivalent abilities compete with more mundane upgrades.
What if Paizo simply made all Weapon and Armor Runes into upgrades and added the Tech trait, and then focused on writing the more tech-themed abilities that compete with them instead? Some runes are already just converted into upgrades anyway. All you gotta say is they figured out the technology to concentrate the magic previously stored in runes into magitech components, the same way they innovated scrolls into spell gems. Can even make a single general-use upgrade, call it a Runic Converter or something like that, that simplifies this process.
Given that the weapon fusions are costed the same, and at the same levels, as their runic counterparts, that seems pretty doable.
Incidentally, is "weapon fusion" still a relevant term in the game at all? I mean, in SF1E they were on a separate track from purely tech upgrades to weapons, but that is no longer the case. Now they are a hybrid tech form of upgrade that shares space with the other upgrades.
I'm gonna revisit an old rant because I'm grumpy like that: Honestly, I'm surprised they didn't stick to tradition there, and just make Weapon Fusions modern Runes, and let weapon accessories be an extra thing as they did in PF2E. It's such an odd decision to me.
I understand they wanted to try making it its own game, but was it really worth fixing what wasn't broken? SF1E's upgrade system essentially worked like PF2E's. So why does SF2E's have to be one that works like neither? I've said this back during the playtest, but it not only goes against what PF2E players are used to, but it also goes against what SF1E players are used to. So you kind of end up with the two original groups chafing at it, while hoping a 3rd new group will like it.
Though I suppose it's moot for me to complain about. As far as I concerned, this isn't the sort of thing that can be fixed with errata. Too much change would be required, as it's an infrastructural problem. Only a complete remaster could fix this sort of thing, and Pathfinder getting one was just a fluke for the OGL thing.
What can, however, be fixed with Errata, is what sort of weapons an Operative can use.
Finoan wrote: Christopher#2411504 wrote: Pretty sure Archaic weapons aren't supposed to work with the Upgrade system? Even if they happen to also be Analog.
They just apparently forgot to write that. I reported that in the Errata Thread.
I don't think it needs to be written. That is what the Archaic trait already says.
The Archaic trait doesn't stop saying what it says or forbidding what it forbids or allowing what it allows just because another trait exists on the same item. That is how traits work. I literally replied to a post where someone was not reading it that way.
Proving it needs to be clear about that.
moosher12 wrote: Let's use Warframe as an example since we are getting the Adventure in 2 months. In Warframe, you can use a giant hammer called the Fragor. Definitely has the aesthetic of an analog weapon. Would fit pretty well into Starfinder, but it'd likely have the statistics of a Maul. So why not just give a Maul the Analog trait and convert it to using upgrades. Warframe is absolutely not a example!
They made it clear on stream that this is a quick bodge job, not something you can put into your SF2 games.
Also SF2 has notable difference in the 2H melee weapon balance right now. Half follow SF1 rules, half PF2.
They need to clean that up.
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The example was a flavor example, not a rules example. So it still applies. The point was that a futuristic maul is a conceivable weapon for scifi, and therefore would be a good fit for Starfinder, as Warframe has various such weapons, and it's an xample that would be fresh on the mind of Starfinder players due to the collab. Not that the book itself would have such a weapon (even if the book did have functional weapons, the advertised warframes aren't specifically hammer users, which is why I made my point based on Warframe as a scifi rather than as a TTRPG). Warframe shows us that there is design space for mauls, and many many other conventionally medieval weapons, to be scifi weapons. Therefore, in the science fantasy that is Starfinder, many classic weapons could reasonably be ported from Pathfinder to Starfinder and be thematic. Especially since Starfinder is Science Fantasy and not just Scifi, as some people are prone to forget.
And I know. I was the one in the stream that asked the question that got us that answer.
Finoan wrote: Huh??
We already have a crossbow in Starfinder2e. The Crossbolter.
So why would we not eventually (probably sooner rather than later) get a bow or thrown exclusively ranged weapons like a javelin or dart or shuriken?
All of which would likely have the Analog trait (but not the Archaic trait) and would therefore be 'guns'.
Huh, Finoan, I get your point, but there already is an exclusively ranged thrown weapon in SF2e:
Archives of Nethys wrote:
Shuriken Drone
Agile Recovery Tech Thrown
Source Player Core pg. 266
Price 5 credits Damage 1d4 P Bulk L
Hands 1 Range 40 ft. Reload 0
Type Ranged Category Martial Group Dart
Upgrades 1
This star-shaped weapon surrounds a tiny single rotor drone designed to return to its thrower if it doesn't hit its target.
We already told him that, actually.
Christopher#2411504 wrote: I literally replied to a post where someone was not reading it that way.
Proving it needs to be clear about that.
The person you were replying to was also just inventing a problem - a Starfinder weapon that has both the Analog trait and the Archaic trait.
Starfinder weapons use the item grade system. Having the Analog or Tech traits is not what causes them to use the grade system. It is simply being from a Starfinder book that causes that.
The Archaic trait is for items that come from Pathfinder. That is what the trait says in its rules. Also, since the item would be coming from Pathfinder, it isn't going to have listed an upgrade series for it because Pathfinder doesn't use the item grade system.
So no, adding the Analog trait in addition to the Archaic trait to a Pathfinder item isn't going to cause confusion. The item from Pathfinder doesn't have item grades. Adding the Analog trait doesn't add that. Adding the Archaic trait allows it to use Pathfinder's item runes.
So if you are expecting Starfinder items to be printed with improved grade versions and have the Archaic trait... why? What would be the purpose of that? Why would the developers do that?
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I suspect we will see archaic weapons native to starfinder as we go. You find some primitive backwater planets using old fashion weapons is a pretty standard sci fi trope. They should not have the improved grades and strictly be runes to upgrade.
kaid wrote: I suspect we will see archaic weapons native to starfinder as we go. You find some primitive backwater planets using old fashion weapons is a pretty standard sci fi trope. They should not have the improved grades and strictly be runes to upgrade. Exactly.
That is why the rules need too say that part out loud.
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But the rules do?? The archaic trait says archaic weapons can't have upgrades.
I'm confused what you're confused about.
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Finoan wrote: Christopher#2411504 wrote: I literally replied to a post where someone was not reading it that way.
Proving it needs to be clear about that.
The person you were replying to was also just inventing a problem - a Starfinder weapon that has both the Analog trait and the Archaic trait.
Starfinder weapons use the item grade system. Having the Analog or Tech traits is not what causes them to use the grade system. It is simply being from a Starfinder book that causes that.
The Archaic trait is for items that come from Pathfinder. That is what the trait says in its rules. Also, since the item would be coming from Pathfinder, it isn't going to have listed an upgrade series for it because Pathfinder doesn't use the item grade system.
So no, adding the Analog trait in addition to the Archaic trait to a Pathfinder item isn't going to cause confusion. The item from Pathfinder doesn't have item grades. Adding the Analog trait doesn't add that. Adding the Archaic trait allows it to use Pathfinder's item runes.
So if you are expecting Starfinder items to be printed with improved grade versions and have the Archaic trait... why? What would be the purpose of that? Why would the developers do that? I wouldn't be too reliant on that definition. There is always the possibility, especially on a return to Numeria, that items in Pathfinder are introduced with the Analog or Tech traits, and the counter possibility that for a few adventures in Starfinder, Archaic items are introduced. I mean, we already have an archaic item in Starfinder, already breaking this rule, Plated Vesk natural armor for example would be using Archaic rules as it uses runes, and that's in a Starfinder book. While it does not mention the Archaic trait, it is practically an Archaic armor as it uses runes. And the adjudication it gives sums up to, "Can use runes, cannot use upgrades." So just using "It's from a Starfinder/Pathfinder book as the deciding factor would be an unwise decision point to stick to, it would be in the traits themselves. You're otherwise right, I'm just addressing the definition being based on book type, not from the way the traits will actually function.
But yes I do agree as I said earlier,
Quote: As for Archaic and Analog traits. It's an open door, but we don't know if it will actually be used until we see an example. As I have no idea how the Starfriends will balance both a suite of runes with a suite of upgrades on the same item, and the clause doesn't mean much until they exercise it by releasing a weapon with both analog and archaic. I don't think Archaic will actually stack with either Analog or Tech. I described it as an open door, but a new rule needs to be added to adjudicate for it to work. There are ways, but until a weapon is introduced with both, it's best to assume they use separate rules and to not mix.
Squiggit wrote: But the rules do?? The archaic trait says archaic weapons can't have upgrades.
I'm confused what you're confused about.
Where does it say that?
And I mean actually say, not just imply.
Because I checked the Archaic Trait and it says nothing of the sort. And the Fundamental Upgrades don't even have rules, as far as I can see.
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Christopher#2411504 wrote: Squiggit wrote: But the rules do?? The archaic trait says archaic weapons can't have upgrades.
I'm confused what you're confused about.
Where does it say that?
And I mean actually say, not just imply.
Because I checked the Archaic Trait and it says nothing of the sort. And the Fundamental Upgrades don't even have rules, as far as I can see. Here's the rules:
Starfinder Player Core wrote:
Analog: This weapon eschews advanced electronics,
computers systems, and electric power sources but was
manufactured and calibrated using advanced technology.
This weapon is immune to abilities that target technology.
Weapon runes (see Pathfinder GM Core) don’t function on this
weapon unless this weapon also has the archaic trait.
Archaic: This trait is applied to weapons crafted using
traditional methods and materials. All weapons from the
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game have the archaic trait. Weapon
runes (see Pathfinder GM Core) function normally with
archaic weapons, but these weapons have no upgrade slots.
The fact that Archaic weapons have no upgrade slots means they can't get upgrades (which serve as property runes for Analog and Tech weapons, by the looks of it.
I also included Analog, since it shows that (in what is likely meant to be future proofing) that a weapon can have both the Analog and Archaic trait at the same time.
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I'll also requote plated Vesk
"You can etch armor runes onto your scales, but you can't install armor upgrades."
Might not specifically say Archaic, but it is our closest equivalent case. As it is an example of using runes.
Beyond that, we simply have no way of knowing until Paizo releases more equipment.
Mangaholic13 wrote: Christopher#2411504 wrote: Squiggit wrote: But the rules do?? The archaic trait says archaic weapons can't have upgrades.
I'm confused what you're confused about.
Where does it say that?
And I mean actually say, not just imply.
Because I checked the Archaic Trait and it says nothing of the sort. And the Fundamental Upgrades don't even have rules, as far as I can see. Here's the rules:
Starfinder Player Core wrote:
Analog: This weapon eschews advanced electronics,
computers systems, and electric power sources but was
manufactured and calibrated using advanced technology.
This weapon is immune to abilities that target technology.
Weapon runes (see Pathfinder GM Core) don’t function on this
weapon unless this weapon also has the archaic trait.
Archaic: This trait is applied to weapons crafted using
traditional methods and materials. All weapons from the
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game have the archaic trait. Weapon
runes (see Pathfinder GM Core) function normally with
archaic weapons, but these weapons have no upgrade slots.
The fact that Archaic weapons have no upgrade slots means they can't get upgrades (which serve as property runes for Analog and Tech weapons, by the looks of it.
I also included Analog, since it shows that (in what is likely meant to be future proofing) that a weapon can have both the Analog and Archaic trait at the same time. The Fundamental Upgrades don't take Upgrade slots.
They give upgrade slots.
And they work perfectly well on Weapons (Aeon Rifle, Shobad Longrifle) and Armors (Second Skin, Skyfire Armor, Aegis Series, Flight Suit) without initial Upgrade slots.
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