Which Happens First, Rooting or Polearm Critical Specialization?


Rules Discussion


When a polearm user crits, they can move their target 5 feet.

When a Rooting weapon crits, it immobilizes the target.

So does it move 5 feet and then immobilize or immobilize and then the target can't be moved?


Hmm... I had thought there was a general rule that you could only have one critical effect to a particular Strike. Which would be a very useful rule to have at this point.

But I am not finding it. Maybe I am misremembering, or maybe it was removed.

Without that, if you are able to apply multiple critical effects to the same critical Strike, I would let the player doing the Strike choose what order to apply the various critical effects.


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There is no rule like that preventing multiple crit effects, no. But there is also no defined order of operations for multiple effects like that. It is left to the GM to handle.


I think the solution here is as simple as "the user chooses".

Edit: I think I just understood the question better.

I'm guessing there is a hope you might be able to move the target 5ft in their desired direction, and then root them to that spot.

Whereas my initial thought was about whether or not rooting would interfere with polearm crit effect, stopping them from moving when you wanted them to.

Honestly I don't know how I would handle this, except to say my initial thought was that I would let (make) you choose one or the other as GM. I was thinking of it as "of course I wouldn't let rooting block the polearm crit" when the question is more likely "can I move them and then root them".


Typically, Whenever the situation where the order of application matters its up to GM.

The closest thing we have to my knowledge is in regards to multiple creatures reacting to the same trigger

Limitations on triggers wrote:
If multiple actions would be occurring at the same time, and it's unclear in what order they happen, the GM determines the order based on the narrative.
In this case however I don't think there is any issues in regards to order, even if they take effect at the same time or immobilized comes first they should still be moved since its forced movement from a crit no less. Depends on if the GM reads the following as requiring a new check or the result of the attack roll needing to beat a dc23.
Forced movement wrote:
You are incapable of movement. You can't use any actions that have the move trait. If you're immobilized by something holding you in place and an external force would move you out of your space, the force must succeed at a check against either the DC of the effect holding you in place or the relevant defense (usually Fortitude DC) of the monster holding you in place.


I think it only matters if the player is trying to apply both polearm effect to move, and then root to lockdown. Because order of operations would become questionable at that point.

If the player only wants the option to choose one or the other, as a GM I have no problem with saying only one version activates.


NorrKnekten wrote:
In this case however I don't think there is any issues in regards to order, even if they take effect at the same time or immobilized comes first they should still be moved since its forced movement from a crit no less. Depends on if the GM reads the following as requiring a new check or the result of the attack roll needing to beat a dc23.

The bigger problem with the order is if the GM rules that the Rooting effect causing Immobilized breaks if the target is forcibly moved from that location.

If the Polearm move effect happens first and then the Rooting rune's effect, then both effects work fine.

If the Rooting rune's Immobilization effect happens first, then the Polearm move effect has to roll against the Immobilization effect in order to happen, and if it is successful, then it breaks the Immobilization effect. At that point, the GM is effectively ruling that only one of the two crit effects will work and is leaving it up to the dice to decide which one.

I think it would be better to either allow both effects to happen (by allowing the player to decide the order) or explicitly rule that only one critical effect can happen in general and let the player choose which one in all cases.


Finoan wrote:

Hmm... I had thought there was a general rule that you could only have one critical effect to a particular Strike. Which would be a very useful rule to have at this point.

But I am not finding it. Maybe I am misremembering, or maybe it was removed.

Without that, if you are able to apply multiple critical effects to the same critical Strike, I would let the player doing the Strike choose what order to apply the various critical effects.

There kind of is such a rule, but it's buried in an unlikely place: Exemplar, under Dominion Epiphets:

"Each one grants a critical specialization ability you can use instead of any others you might have access to,"

But otherwise, no general rule of the sort. Which makes sense because they usually aren't needed, non critical specialisation effects arising from crits in stuff like runes are almost never an issue. This is a peculiar case because the rune and the crit spec are in opposition (sort of).

Claxon wrote:

I think it only matters if the player is trying to apply both polearm effect to move, and then root to lockdown. Because order of operations would become questionable at that point.

If the player only wants the option to choose one or the other, as a GM I have no problem with saying only one version activates.

This is already the case, sort of. You can always choose to just not use your Critical Specialisation effect, per the rules:

"You can always decide not to add the critical specialization effect of your weapon."

Which makes perfect sense for effects like Polearm or Club, which might benefit the enemy in ways you don't want by moving them out of reach.

Of course if the player wants to apply the polearm spec but rooting, that is technically not allowed, but it's such a minor thing I see no issue with allowing it.

Applying both could be seen as very powerful but it's still fine. The rooting DC is a bit of a joke unless you're facing something much lower level than you (even if they have no Athletics AND no Acrobatics, a Level 7 creature with LOW attack bonus has +13, which still means better odds than not of escaping with 1 action), and the Clumsy only lasts as long as they're immobilised.

It's basically paying a rune slot to combine the bow crit spec (but with a harder chance to escape) with the spear crit spec (but with worse duration overall). Stacking that with pushing a dude a bit is fine.


HammerJack wrote:
There is no rule like that preventing multiple crit effects, no.

I think I am getting that vague impression from things like Deadly Butterfly that specify, almost like it is reminder text, that you can only benefit from one critical specialization effect.

But specific does not define general. That line from Deadly Butterfly cannot be used as a replacement for a general rule, and does not override a general rule since the general rule doesn't exist.


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Finoan wrote:
HammerJack wrote:
There is no rule like that preventing multiple crit effects, no.

I think I am getting that vague impression from things like Deadly Butterfly that specify, almost like it is reminder text, that you can only benefit from one critical specialization effect.

But specific does not define general. That line from Deadly Butterfly cannot be used as a replacement for a general rule, and does not override a general rule since the general rule doesn't exist.

Which is a specific rule of the feat and not a general, as seen on a different feat... doing the opposite:

Quote:
Your body is a varied and deadly weapon. When you critically hit a target with your claw or talon, you can apply a critical specialization effect based on the stance you're in. For claw stance, apply the knife weapon group's effect. For talon stance, apply the axe group's effect. These effects are in addition to the claw's or talon's normal critical specialization effect if you apply it.

In general, I would allow the player to choose the order of operation of simultaneous things that happen from his Actions.

My "best" guidance on that is that it's called explicitly out on Start of Turn effects, that also happen simultaneously, and allow the player to tailor the order they happen to his advantage.


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Finoan wrote:
HammerJack wrote:
There is no rule like that preventing multiple crit effects, no.

I think I am getting that vague impression from things like Deadly Butterfly that specify, almost like it is reminder text, that you can only benefit from one critical specialization effect.

But specific does not define general. That line from Deadly Butterfly cannot be used as a replacement for a general rule, and does not override a general rule since the general rule doesn't exist.

Even if it were a general rule, Rooting is not a critical specialization effect.

I agree with shroudb, when a player has two effects activate and there's no way to tell which activates first just let them decide.


I guess I might let a player apply both, in the order of their preference.

The "strongest" case for the player is to move the enemy and then root them. As a GM my initial response is that it might be too good, but I'd like to be fair and at least give it the chance to see how it plays out (and give my players a warning that I am reserving the right to make them choose if I feel the interaction is too strong).


Yeah, I agree that the effects should both function as normal without interfering with eachother. But I am not aware of any RAW or RAI that says the immobilized effect breaks when forcibly moved, unlike with grab where its hard to justify the condition remaining when something is moved out of reach.

Only one critical effect(as opposed to critical specialization effect) in general is not going to be a popular rule and is not at all RAW, Especially later on where you typically end up with 3 or more effects at once on a crit.

In all cases the best rule is a version of "GM decides" either by GM explicitly applying it in a desired order or using an order that makes the most sense, Such as letting players decide up until the point where it gets cheesy.

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