Hey everyone,
I'm in a bit of a rules debate with my GM and group and would love some input. It's about how the Axe critical specialization interacts with the Swipe feat—specifically, whether it can trigger twice (once from each target) if both are critically hit.
Here's the situation: I use Swipe with a melee axe against two adjacent enemies (let's call them A and B), and I score a critical hit on both. The axe's critical specialization says:
Choose one creature adjacent to the initial target and within reach. If its AC is lower than your attack roll result for the critical hit, you deal damage to that creature equal to the result of the weapon damage die you rolled [...]
So the question is: since both A and B were critically hit by the same Swipe, can I apply the axe crit effect from A to B and from B to A?
My understanding is that even though Swipe is a single Strike, the attack roll is resolved separately against each target. For example, given AC differences, the same roll can result in different outcomes—hit, miss, or crit—against each enemy. That means each enemy is effectively the “initial target” of their own critical hit resolution. And since they’re adjacent to each other, each could also be eligible as the "creature adjacent to the initial target."
Additionally, there’s nothing in the rules for Swipe that would prevent both critical specialization effects from triggering independently with other weapon groups. For example, if you score a critical hit with a War Flail (Also has the Sweep Trait), both targets could potentially be knocked prone. This makes it hard to see why Axes would be treated differently, especially since the interaction seems consistent with how other weapon group specializations function with Swipe.
To me, this feels like a valid and flavorful synergy between Swipe and axe crits. Honestly, the first thing I imagined when reading Swipe was someone swinging a big axe in a wide arc, so it just makes thematic sense.
Has anyone seen a dev clarification on this, or had a similar situation at your table?
Thanks!
Thanks, that actually lines up pretty closely with how I’ve been interpreting it too.
My GM, though, brought up the point that since Swipe explicitly allows the Sweep trait to apply to both targets, that means both A and B are considered “initial targets.” So in his view, neither one could be used as the adjacent creature for the axe crit specialization—you’d need a third creature (C) nearby for it to trigger. (Which, let’s be honest, doesn’t sound like a super common scenario. I don’t expect to be landing Swipe crits with three enemies huddled around me too often, haha).
I get where he’s coming from—especially since the Swipe wording is a bit awkward. Like you said, “all your Swipe attacks” feels strange when there’s only one attack roll. But that phrasing also supports the idea that Swipe acts as two attacks resolved independently, even if they share the same roll.
From that angle, it still feels fair that A could trigger the axe crit on B and vice versa. That seems consistent with how critical specializations work across weapon groups—flails knocking multiple targets prone, swords applying flat-footed to each, etc.
Really appreciate all the insight so far—it’s helped me see that this is a genuine gray area that I needed some clarification. Curious to hear if more GMs out there rule it the same way!
Yeah, I’ll definitely bring more info to him beyond just my own arguments, haha. I think he might’ve read one of those Reddit posts and became sticked to it.
On the flip side, I just realized I can search for keywords here on the forum (game-changer!), and I found a few solid examples supporting this interaction. In the Swipe feat + Sweep weapon trait post: The guy said:
As of now it'd be:
-Roll high enough to crit both targets.
-Both targets take same double damage + crit effect
-W/ axes, then choose a target adjacent to the initial* target that had the crit effect. Which could very well be the B for A and A for B (assuming your Swipe is normal and requires them to be adjacent).*In context this isn't addressing initial target for a Strike w/ multiple targets, but rather designating the target of the Strike in contrast to the one that'll get struck by the crit effect. One could argue it is there for multiple targets, but that'd be overreaching AFAICT.
As wild as it seems, any other weapon would get the full effect on each from a crit. I think the only exception might be Penetrating Shot since there's only one missile to pin them down and it traveled past the first target.
It's quite a spectacular image, like a flurry cutting easily (or at least critically) through your enemies. In a more realistic campaign one could argue the order of events prevents this, but PF2 has a high fantasy foundation.
Or in the Swipe & Critical Specialization Effect (Axe) post.
You roll one Strike, and compare against two target's ACs. You do not determine which is "first" or "second", you damage them both in the same Strike, applying effects separately based on their respective ACs. If you crit one with a weapon which you can apply the critical specialization effects for, you are able to do so if you wish. Therefore with an axe, yes you can apply the effects to both the targets, if you crit both of them. The same would apply for any weapon's critical specialization, such as knocking them both prone or making them both bleed.
That lines up perfectly with how I’ve been seeing it. For me, the default feels like: "Yeah, if you crit both, you apply the crit effect on both." Having it not work that way feels more like the odd ruling, not the standard.
Now get a shock rune on that axe and you'll be set.
Well now you know how to use Swipe. I suggest you explore it with Devise a Stratagem, or Sure Strike.
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Hi, GM. You are wrong in several ways.
First, axe crit damage is only the weapon die. It's a small bonus for scoring a crit. It's not close to pick crits.
Second, you are singling out axe to shut down its crit effect. I can't guess why, but think about the non-swipe scenario.
1. Solitary target crit - No effect. Axe is poor in that regard.
2. Crit on a target beside another foe - The other foe takes weapon damage die damage.
Now, you're saying that because of wordage in Swipe that somehow axe crits stop working against targets beside each other. It doesn't make sense. You should support your player trying to make this very situational and niche weapon attack work. Give them the damage and be happy for them if they are ever in a scenario to use the feat and manage to score a crit. Avoid being adversarial.
Swipe is not degenerate, the double dip of the axe crit specialization is. Imagine two scenarios: a) there is a boss that the PC can only crit on a 20; b) there's the same boss, but they have an adjacent minion that the PC crits on a 15. This boss is weaker in the last scenario than in the first, and this is clearly not intended and a degeneration of the design that creates weird incentives.
You have tons of situations like this one. The Swashbuckler has a feat to gain Panache when flanked. Alchemist can deal splash damage to a creature by hitting a nearby one. Etc...
It's a case of turning a negative situation into a positive one through clever play. It is not a problem in and by itself unless it makes the strategy way too strong (and it isn't as you still need to score a critical hit and the resulting damage is nowhere close to high).
For the Axe crit spec the initial target language is there to give frame of reference from the creature you crit to valid creatures for taking the spec damage. Its not there to further limit swipe.
When applying the axe spec crit treat each creature that suffers a critical hit as initial target when determining which creatures are adjacent to it.
Also consider how axe crits work with whirlwind strike.
How they work with a grievous rune
with a shock rune
with cleave/great cleave
Increasing AOE potential is the niche of the axe.
how axe crits work with whirlwind strikeWhirlwind Strike makes several attacks, so sure, the axe crit specialization can be used against the other targets of the whirlwind, since they are not targets of the attack that critted.
grievous runeNot sure what the issue would be here. You crit target A and can apply the damage to targets C and D.
cleave/great cleaveCleave also does multiple strikes, not a single strike. So yeah, you can apply the axe crit from one attack to the target of another attack. This is just normal strike procedure.
shock runeThis one is interesting, and seems to work the same way the axe crit specialization works. The wording is a bit different, since it doesn't really mention an "initial target", so for an attack that targets multiple creatures, I think it would work between them as well.
Increasing AOE potential is the niche of the axeI would say increasing the area of the AOE is the niche of the axe. Increasing the damage of the AOE would be the niche of a theoretical sweep pick.
Those are all features to go for to increase AOE capability for a striking character and axes add to that direction so in situations where it applies it should be doing more damage than a pick crit which dominates the single target alone situation hands down.
With the shock rune and with axe crits while swiping creatures each creature is determined if they are crit or not independently based on their own AC but using one roll of the die. Whirlwind having more rolls of the die doesn't change that each creature is still determined if hit independently based on their own AC. So when thinking about initial targets for axe crit there shouldn't really be a difference between how each of these operate with two creatures adjacent being attacked.
Each crit which is what needs to happen to apply axe crit spec should be viewed as an event that has an initial target. When you do that each crit always has its own initial target which is the frame of reference to see which additional creatures are valid for axe crit spec damage or shock rune crit damage.
Treating swiped creatures as the same initial target for crits that occur is a strong nerf on axe spec and the shocking rune early game until the character gets whirlwind where you are allowing the damage.
All it means is that the player should not use an axe until they have whirlwind strike. If axes get their benefit while swiping then your player will pay close attention to positioning early and often.
On another note i think this forms a more engaged attitude from your axe player in general. Other party members will get more benefit from shoving enemies to get them adjacent for the axe wielders turn too.
Also since your GM your positioning enemies. If they see a swipe come in those same foes if smart enough are likely to not stay adjacent for the rest of that fight if it can be helped. meaning you still have levers on effectiveness if needed.
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I hear a lot of "it's not supposed to do that," "it's not supposed to increase damage," "that's what picks are supposed to do."
None of that is written anywhere. To me you come off as an adversarial GM. It boils down to this:
Two enemies are side by side, which let's pause right here, is not common... and your axe player can get into reach of both of them, which pause again, puts them in risk of high damage... and in this situation where they've invested in a feat and invested in the CRIT spec of axe, and they happen to score a crit, you disable the CRIT spec effect of axe, because... pick, because target, because you personally think your player having a feel great moment with their axe isn't how the game should be played?
The game isn't that fragile. You don't need to protect its integrity by dying on this hill. Let your player have their moment and celebrate it. I would feel robbed if I were your player, and I'd probably find another game if the GM were rules lawyering against me with "target" wording.
The intent here is not to assign blame, but rather to raise this debate and reach a conclusion on whether or not we can utilize the Axe Crit Spec.
About the pick thing, as a good Brazilian would say: "one thing is one thing, another thing is another thing." In my opinion, since the niche of Picks focuses on single-target critical damage, this approach is very straightforward. The Axe, as already pointed out by someone, possesses a Crit Spec designed to spread damage among multiple targets, which occurs on a Swipe Crit. Swipe, in my view, is much more aligned with the Axe’s niche than with that of the Pick.
Comparing the damage output between the Pick and the Axe is not entirely meaningful, as the Axe Crit Spec provides situational bonus damage, whereas the Pick's effect will always proc consistently.
Finally, moving on to this point:
Swipe double dipping the crit specialization of axes encourages degenerate play where it's better for the PC to have an enemy mook near the boss so they can crit the mook + hit the boss with swipe, and deal more total damage to the boss than if the mook didn't exist.
One example. If there is a mook positioned next to the boss, and I make a single attack against the mook, score a critical hit, I'll spread the damage to the boss. Then, proceed to make a second attack directly against the boss and just hit it; the resulting effect would be functionally identical to the scenario you described.
The intent behind the Swipe feat is precisely to combine these first and second attacks into a single attack roll, allowing the character to, quite literally, "swipe" through both enemies, again applying whatever crit specialization it has.
I recognize that this discussion falls within a grey area of interpretation, which is why an official clarification from the developers would be highly valuable in this case.
I recognize that this discussion falls within a grey area of interpretation, which is why an official clarification from the developers would be highly valuable in this case.
The devs generally have better things to do than try and mediate individual rules disputes, so I would suggest finding another solution.
Indeed, you are right. I'll not wait for it.
Thanks for the contribution guys, have a good one!
I would let the swipe work against both targets once each if you crit each one. It's very hard and rare to crit both a boss and a minion and it's often rare to even have two creatures adjacent. Given the rarity of the circumstances under which a crit hit on two adjacent creatures hits with a swipe, I don't see a problem having the crit effect affect both.
As a GM when creatures are attacking, I don't often have them set up adjacent. So when it does happen that both things occur in the same hit, seems pretty harsh not to let the player have the crit spec benefit.
Axes are built for that sweeping, multi-target damage to adjacent targets. Let it happen when everything lines up for it as the circumstances are rare.