Marcloure's page

how axe crits work with whirlwind strike

Whirlwind Strike makes several attacks, so sure, the axe crit specialization can be used against the other targets of the whirlwind, since they are not targets of the attack that critted.

grievous rune

Not sure what the issue would be here. You crit target A and can apply the damage to targets C and D.

cleave/great cleave

Cleave also does multiple strikes, not a single strike. So yeah, you can apply the axe crit from one attack to the target of another attack. This is just normal strike procedure.

shock rune

This one is interesting, and seems to work the same way the axe crit specialization works. The wording is a bit different, since it doesn't really mention an "initial target", so for an attack that targets multiple creatures, I think it would work between them as well.

Increasing AOE potential is the niche of the axe

I would say increasing the area of the AOE is the niche of the axe. Increasing the damage of the AOE would be the niche of a theoretical sweep pick. And I can easily imagine some sort or spring-loaded or curved warpick that has sweep.

If both targets hit by Swipe aren't separate targets, how do you rule that both would become off-guard?

So, the way I see this, they are separate targets, but both are still the initial targets of the attack. It's a single attack with multiple targets, which is nothing special by itself. All the swiped creatures are targets, but they are equally the initial targets of the one attack.

You're making 2 targets off -guard, not 1.

You're making 2 targets bleed, not 1.
You're repositioning 2 targets, not 1.
You are getting +2x damage instead of 1x.
And etc.

How is Axe any different?

Yes, I agree that all those weapons keep the value of their crit specialization, but it's the same for the axe in my view. When you make a crit with the axe, you get to deal more damage to another creature that you didn't target. If the swipe crits with an axe, it's the same thing: you get to add more damage to a creature that you didn't target. If you could deal more damage to one of the targets of the swipe, that would actually be treating the axe differently by allowing it to do something that it otherwise couldn't do.

As you said, compare the pick crit with the axe crit. Consider that both deal 3 dice of damage because of striking runes. During a swipe you crit targets A and B. With an axe in your interpretation, target A and B would take the crit damage + 3d12 (19.5) from the crit specialization. With a pick, target A and B would take the crit damage + 6 from the specialization. Suddenly, the axe is dealing more damage to the targets of the attack than the pick, which should be the role of the pick! Why is the axe stepping over its niche of "deal more damage, but spread over targets"? Now, if there was a target C and D adjacent, they would be perfectly fine taking those 3d12 damage.

lol, I call people out for munchkin-like questions but Swiping two enemies - literally the only use-case for Swipe - is "degenerate play" now?

Swipe is not degenerate, the double dip of the axe crit specialization is. Imagine two scenarios: a) there is a boss that the PC can only crit on a 20; b) there's the same boss, but they have an adjacent minion that the PC crits on a 15. This boss is weaker in the last scenario than in the first, and this is clearly not intended and a degeneration of the design that creates weird incentives.

Too bad the writers already thought of that

Good. That's good.

First, axe crit damage is only the weapon die. It's a small bonus for scoring a crit. It's not close to pick crits.

Yeah, I know it's only the dice. By "30–50% depending on the flat modifiers" I meant to say it's lower percentage the higher the flat mod.

Also, another point: Swipe double dipping the crit specialization of axes encourages degenerate play where it's better for the PC to have an enemy mook near the boss so they can crit the mook + hit the boss with swipe, and deal more total damage to the boss than if the mook didn't exist. This is certainly not intended and makes no sense to be easier to kill the boss when they have minions nearby. It could come to the point where an allied caster summons a low level monster nearby (or simply throws a bag of rats) just so the axe wielder swipes the summoned minion and the boss, adding up to 3d12 damage to the boss.

I think this last point cements to me that it should not work this way, as someone who uses a lot of low level minions with bosses. The boss should not be more vulnerable because they have minions supporting them.

Hello, RodZn's GM here. The interaction between swipe and sweep is definitely not clear to me. Swipe makes a single attack and axe critical specialization requires an initial target, which it leaves for us to figure out what that means. My interpretation is that the effects of axes' critical specialization would apply to targets outside of those targeted by the swipe. Reasons being:

1. It's a single attack. It doesn't really matter if it targets 2 or 3 or 5 creatures, it's a single attack. And I think we all agree with that, otherwise things like Sure Strike wouldn't work with Swipe, as well as any benefit that "applies to your next strike" or "applies on the next target you hit". If it is a single attack, then:

2. Either a target is the initial target of the attack or they aren't. For Swipe, it seems to me that all the targets are equally the initial targets. If PF2e used a more "gamey" language, I see that Swipe would read like: "Two-actions strike; Targets: 2 adjacent creatures; Hit: weapon damage". Both targets are the primary targets of the attack.

3. We can try to look at the incentives of design. If we compare the pick group with the axe group, the crit specialization of axes is intended for players that want to deal more damage total, but spread over more targets, while the specialization of picks is intended for players that want to deal more damage concentrated on their targets. If the crit specialization of axes worked on the targets of the swipe, this would violate that incentive. Axes would deal more concentrated damage than picks in this case.

4. Lastly, the book gives us this guideline for Ambiguous Rules: "Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is." The axe critical specialization double dipping is pretty deep in the "too good to be true" field to me, since it would be increasing the damage of crits by 30–50% depending on the flat modifiers.

further prrof towards that interpation can be gleamed by the last sentence of Swipe:

"If you’re using a weapon with the sweep trait, its modifier applies to all your Swipe attacks."

And looking at Sweep:

"When you attack with this weapon, you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your attack roll if you already attempted to attack a different target this turn using this weapon."

Sweep considers each target a "different target" hence it applies its bonus to both.

I think the need to be explicit that sweep applies to both targets is exactly because otherwise it would apply to none (or only at the "second target" in a generous read, whatever that means). This is a weak argument in either direction, so unfortunately I don't see the sweep rules clarifying too much here.

This is my view on the matter.