Hello,
I've read time and again that psychic are pretty good at DPS (among other things) and I wanted to give it a try in an upcoming game, where we already have a good frontline and heals/buffs, to change from my beloved sorcerers.
The problem is, I'm getting stuck on Pathbuilder, and I cannot fathom how it might work ingame.
From what I gather (and the guides I've read), the two highest DPS conscious minds would be The Oscillating Wave (obviously) and the Silent Whisper (less obviously), with the Tangible Dream as a melee alternative.
But they all seem to have huge drawbacks and I don't understand how they're supposed to be played.
1) Oscillating Wave
It has awesome blasting spells, including Fireball and Howling Blizzard, and even gets support damage from entropic wheel. This would allow me to really lay the hurt on opponents during the unleash phase and maybe get the highest AOE game achievable in the game (by dipping Oracle).
...but
- You have no fuel in the tank. You get 1 or 2 top slots and that's it, nothing more. I thought psychics were supposed to rely on their amped cantrips a lot, but the Oscillating Wave got shafted there (at least damage-wise). Ignition requiring an attack roll makes it a hard pass - and even so, its amped version is barely better than Fire Ray, unless you're willing to go melee. Frostbite got buffed good in the remaster by now requiring a save, and the rider is good, but it's low damage even amped. Your unique cantrips don't deal damage until level 10 (where it's ok to aim but nothing to write about damage-wise).
- Waiting until turn 2 to unleash actually reduces the value of big AOEs like fireball since your opponents will probably be in melee by this time. I would have rated much higher spells like Blazing Bolt (despite the attack roll), divine wrath or the like.
So, although it looks like the best blaster on paper with incredible spike damage, it seems cumbersome and very inefficient to play, especially on long days.
2) Silent Whisper
Now we're talking: you get a great blasting focus spell at level 6. When amped, it's 1d10/level on a big friendly cone. With a little bit of positioning, this means your unleash psyche will probably deal huge damage to all opponents at once (60 feet cone is HUGE). Stupefied is just icing on the fat, fat cake. And it's a focus spell, so you can use it a lot without spending your strained resources. 4th level amped message is also a godsend if you have a big hairy friend. So yeah, looks we have a winner here.
...except it's a mental spell, so you're SoL on mindless opponents - and there are a lot of them. And the Silent Whisper spell list is incredibly s$@%ty, both from a blasting and utility point of view. They're all already on your occult list and, sure, it's good to get heroism for free, but that's about it.
3) Tangible Dream
I don't want to play this character melee so it's out, but I thought about it anyway. Imaginary weapon is a great spell when you're a magus, not so much when you have d6 hp and no armor. Even with an amped shield, it's suicide to go melee unless your DM is really lenient. Astral Rain amped could be a good third action but as such it won't benefit from psyche unleashed. There are a couple good spells on the list but it's not enough to save this conscious mind for me.
So there you go, it's the first time I'm stumped and really don't know how to make this class work. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, maybe psychic isn't built for damage, but I'd love to have some advice from those who actually successfully played a psychic.
Am I wrong in my assessment ? How did you do it ? Are you satisfied with the mechanical results ?
Thanks a lot, it's driving me crazy, I've built basically all classes with a degree of success but this one totally eludes me ^^
I think this is a matter of expectation management.
PF2 has good game balance. Which means that "This is the highest DPR build in the game" and "Derp, I just threw this character together by picking build options with random dice rolls" aren't different by a huge amount. A moderate amount, yes. But not a huge amount.
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Any tangible dream psychic that wants to use imaginary weapon is not going to do melee. It's going to use ghostly carrier for it which turns it into a 120 foot ranged spell that hits 2 targets. As long as you can keep the ghostly carrier alive anyways
I do wish oscillating wave got an AOE cantrip before level 10. You got one good sure strike ignition on turn 2 and hopefully get some targets with splash damage.
Keep some magic missiles handy for whichever build you go for. Easiest way to get your unleash bonus damage in
Help me understand how to build a good DPS psychic
Step 1) Start with the sorcerer class.
Step 2) Describe it as a psychic.
Easy money!
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The only Psychic build with good DPR is the Silent Whisper one. And you have an entire spell list for fights against mental immune enemies (7.5% of the creature base, you won't face that many of them unless you play the Slithering).
Oscillating Wave has a big issue as its main damaging spells, namely Fireball and Howling Blizzard, have to be used during round 1 and as such don't benefit from any of your damage enhancement abilities (Unleash Psyche and Entropic Wheel). It leads to a kind of lose-lose gameplay where you either target a lot of creatures or deal a lot of damage to each of them but never both simultaneously.
I agree that Tangible Dream is suicidal. You need a very specific build to get the most out of it (and especially an extremely tanky build).
Any tangible dream psychic that wants to use imaginary weapon is not going to do melee. It's going to use ghostly carrier for it which turns it into a 120 foot ranged spell that hits 2 targets. As long as you can keep the ghostly carrier alive anyways
The Ghostly Carrier can only target a single creature. If you want to target 2 creatures you need one of them to be at melee range from your Psychic. Still, it's certainly the safest way to play a Tangible Dream Psychic.
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The only Psychic build with good DPR is the Silent Whisper one. And you have an entire spell list for fights against mental immune enemies (7.5% of the creature base, you won't face that many of them unless you play the Slithering).
Oscillating Wave has a big issue as its main damaging spells, namely Fireball and Howling Blizzard, have to be used during round 1 and as such don't benefit from any of your damage enhancement abilities (Unleash Psyche and Entropic Wheel). It leads to a kind of lose-lose gameplay where you either target a lot of creatures or deal a lot of damage to each of them but never both simultaneously.
I agree that Tangible Dream is suicidal. You need a very specific build to get the most out of it (and especially an extremely tanky build).
Any tangible dream psychic that wants to use imaginary weapon is not going to do melee. It's going to use ghostly carrier for it which turns it into a 120 foot ranged spell that hits 2 targets. As long as you can keep the ghostly carrier alive anywaysThe Ghostly Carrier can only target a single creature. If you want to target 2 creatures you need one of them to be at melee range from your Psychic. Still, it's certainly the safest way to play a Tangible Dream Psychic.
The psychic is an extremely disappointing class in play. It reads nice on paper, but it lacks much punch in play other than a bit at the early levels.
The focus point system isn't very good unless the DM is going to ensure a sufficient rest between every fight. Even then, many of the abilities are too weak, too situational, or downright useless.
The psychic is an extremely disappointing class in play. It reads nice on paper, but it lacks much punch in play other than a bit at the early levels.
The focus point system isn't very good unless the DM is going to ensure a sufficient rest between every fight. Even then, many of the abilities are too weak, too situational, or downright useless.
While I overall agree, it's not really answering OPs question. And I think the Silent Whisper Psychic is a nasty damage dealer. At least this one does good damage.
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The only Psychic build with good DPR is the Silent Whisper one. And you have an entire spell list for fights against mental immune enemies (7.5% of the creature base, you won't face that many of them unless you play the Slithering).
Oscillating Wave has a big issue as its main damaging spells, namely Fireball and Howling Blizzard, have to be used during round 1 and as such don't benefit from any of your damage enhancement abilities (Unleash Psyche and Entropic Wheel). It leads to a kind of lose-lose gameplay where you either target a lot of creatures or deal a lot of damage to each of them but never both simultaneously.
I agree that Tangible Dream is suicidal. You need a very specific build to get the most out of it (and especially an extremely tanky build).
Any tangible dream psychic that wants to use imaginary weapon is not going to do melee. It's going to use ghostly carrier for it which turns it into a 120 foot ranged spell that hits 2 targets. As long as you can keep the ghostly carrier alive anywaysThe Ghostly Carrier can only target a single creature. If you want to target 2 creatures you need one of them to be at melee range from your Psychic. Still, it's certainly the safest way to play a Tangible Dream Psychic.
Nothing in ghostly carrier's description would suggest that. It aught to work with multiple targets
Nothing in ghostly carrier's description would suggest that. It aught to work with multiple targets
"When you Cast a Spell that has a range of touch, you can have the carrier move within range, deliver the spell to a creature there, and return to you."
It works only on one target (even if the spell can have multiple targets, you just use the carrier for a single one of them).
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Could you free archetype (or just archetype) into wizard, witch, or sorcerer, take Reach Spell at L4, then go to town with your 3a, 30' ranged two-target striking amped IW? It's not great range, but it's out of melee.
You can't metamagic amp cantrips. So, nope :)
I always thought Amped Ignition was rather interesting. The melee function for flanking with reach is interesting. And Mind Shift getting additional damage types is swell.
I think the other important thing for a blaster psychic is a damaging third action. Psi burst being the obvious pick.
I had a witch I wanted to pick up Amped Ignition on, as she had familiar condutit and a shadow familiar that needed to stay in melee anyway. Being able to turn it into a melee ignition platform would have been sweet.
While I overall agree, it's not really answering OPs question. And I think the Silent Whisper Psychic is a nasty damage dealer. At least this one does good damage.The psychic is an extremely disappointing class in play. It reads nice on paper, but it lacks much punch in play other than a bit at the early levels.
The focus point system isn't very good unless the DM is going to ensure a sufficient rest between every fight. Even then, many of the abilities are too weak, too situational, or downright useless.
Silent Whisper is probably the best of the lot due to the second tier focus spell. AOE while not hitting allies is helpful.
Hmmm I'm not seeing that in either the AoN Spellshape entry or the Psychic text for Amps. Could you point me to where it says that? Is it because "you can amp it by spending 1 Focus Point to add the amp effect" counts as a free action? There's no free action symbol next to the "Amp" entries in AoN.You can't metamagic amp cantrips. So, nope :)Could you free archetype (or just archetype) into wizard, witch, or sorcerer, take Reach Spell at L4, then go to town with your 3a, 30' ranged two-target striking amped IW? It's not great range, but it's out of melee.
It's in the amp explanation somewhere in the psychic. Kind of sucks, but it was pointed out when I wanted to Amp Reach Imaginary weapon.
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From Amp entry:
« The singular focus required to amp a psi cantrip means that unless otherwise noted, you can apply only one amp to a given psi cantrip, and you can't apply both an amp and a metamagic ability to a cantrip at the same time. »
Just to be a Debby downer - it's also pretty unfortunate that psychic doesn't get effortless concentration or some variant of it. I know many games don't get to that high of a level but when I got it on my sorcerer it was such a major power spike. Psychic falls behind in damage at that point by a bit, against casters that can take advantage of the free sustain.