
satio of the Steel Fang |
Looking to build a human fighter who two weapon fights with kukri
I'd be looking to crit a lot and I'd be stacking as much Bonues to damage as I can
Weapon spec , Weapon training , Weapon Bonus , dex to damage , any other way I can find
I am trying to decide if I should also go Weapon master as the character's class Archtype
How high can I get my damage output by level 9
Figuring what I would likely be able to afford at that level for weapons
And taking the most advantageous feat and such .

Mysterious Stranger |

The best way to maximize this build would be to take the following feats. Double Slice, Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Piranha Strike, Slashing Grace, Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Grace, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization. For Weapon Training take Light Blades, and Focused Weapon. This will take all your feats and weapon trainings.
This will still not match a two-handed fighter using a falchion with half the feats and weapon trainings. The fighter with Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training Heavy Blades will have a DPR of 45 vs an AC 19. The fighter using two Kukris will have a DPR of 43.35. That might seem fairly close but the fighter using the falchion still has 6 feats left to spend. When I start adding things like Furious Focus, Cornugun Smash and Hurtful to the Falchion wielding fighter his damage goes up much higher
The above numbers do not take into account magic weapons or other factors. It still gives you an idea of what the build is capable of.
Weapon Master means you don't get Focused Weapon. That actually lowers your DPR to 38.25.

Dragonchess Player |

For TWF with kukris, you want to have more attacks (Improved Two Weapon Fighting) and more critical hits (Improved Critical [Kukri]).
Critical Focus is also a good idea at 9th or 10th level in and of itself, but also to set up Bleeding Critical at 11th level.
Two Weapon Rend is mathematically better than Greater Two Weapon Fighting, so you may want Double Slice.

Mysterious Stranger |

You will want both double slice and two weapon grace. Two weapon grace allows you to use DEX to damage while using two weapon fighting, but you only get half you DEX bonus to damage with the offhand weapon. Double slice allows you to get the full DEX to damage with both weapons.
The only bonus to damage two weapon rend will give you is 1d10 + 1.5 DEX bonus. It will not gain the bonus damage from other feats or bonuses like weapon enchantments. You also cannot get a critical hit with it or trigger feats or enchantments from a critical hit. This also assumes you hit with both weapons.

Dragonchess Player |

Two Weapon Rend is mathematically more likely to trigger when you are attacking three times with the primary weapon and twice with the secondary weapon than hitting on a third attack with the secondary weapon at -10.

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depending on stats, you might get more damage from the advanced weapon training trained grace

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The best way to maximize this build would be to take the following feats. Double Slice, Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Piranha Strike, Slashing Grace, Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Grace, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization. For Weapon Training take Light Blades, and Focused Weapon. This will take all your feats and weapon trainings.
Weapon Master means you don't get Focused Weapon. That actually lowers your DPR to 38.25.
what if we did weapon master, drop double slice, slashing grace, and two weapon grace, grabbing focus weapon and trained grace weapon trainings with the feats?
also, a Sash of the War Champion seems a must for this build

Mysterious Stranger |

My build already includes focused weapon. At 9th level he is has a +2 for weapon training bonus, using Trained Grace would increase that by 2 but would mean he does not get the DEX to damage. My figures assumed an 18 DEX which means the bonus would be identical. My build also did not factor in the stat increases for 4th and 8th level or a belt of dexterity. Once those are factored in the DEX to damage will be greater than trained grace.
I also did not factor in any magic items. A mithral breastplate is fairly cheap but mythral full plate costs a lot more. At this level I am not sure the extra cost for full mithral full plate, and a sash of the war champions is worth it. Don’t forget you need to buy two magic weapons and will want to probably a good belt of DEX. You will also want to have enough for the rest of the big 6. If you go with a +2 mithral breastplate and a +4 Belt of DEX it will cost 24,200 gold. +2 Mithral full plate and a slash of the war champion will go for 18,500 gold without a belt. The belt not only increases your AC it also boosts your chance to hit, damage, and reflex saves. The mithral breastplate will have a max DEX bonus of +7 at 9th level.
As long as you keep armor training you can put off purchasing the slash of the war champion until higher level. The difference between full plate and a breastplate is only 3 points. The breastplate will give you a slightly better touch AC which can be important.
Weapon Master also loses Armor Training so a slash of the war champion will be worthless with that archetype.

Tottemas |
deadly agility helps a lot. not having to take TWF grace or be reliant on agile weapons means youre online a lot earlier. if were splurging on gloves of dueling (1/3 of your wealth) then i think the dragoon archetype would give a lot of added damage at lv 9. use verstatile design and your kukris count as being part of the spear group. with the knockout training AWT youd add +16 to each attack from weapon training alone
1 weapon finesse, deadly agility
2 twf
3 weapon adept (or that proficiency ioun stone)
4 enforcer
5 AWT knockout training
6 improved twf
7 hurtful
8 improved critical
9 (undecided feat)
assuming +1 weapons and a +2 belt of dex i get the following
attack: +18/+18/+18H/+13/+13 (15-20/x2) dmg: 25.5/22.5
vs AC 19 thats a DPR of ~137
vs AC 23 thats a DPR of ~111
vs AC 23 immune to nonlethal the DPR is just ~55
of course, you have just 5 ft reach and no mobility so you cant expect to full attack every round. if you want something more consistent then you can build into the Dual Strike weapon trick at lv 11 which would allow you to attack thrice without full attacking (two as a standard and hurtful)

Mysterious Stranger |

War Priest is mainly to get the sacred weapon so you have scaling damage. Focused Weapon does the same thing. The big drawback of the warpriest is the lower BAB. One other thing about the warpriest is that the many of the feats you will want have a prerequisite of +1 BAB. This means you cannot take those feats with your bonus human feat because the warpriest does not qualify at 1st level. With warpriest you will be using spell to boost your combat ability.
If you are open to other classes besides fighter slayer may be worth thinking about. They can pick up ranger combat feats that allow them to ignore prerequisites. This would allow you to do a STR based build that would mean fewer feats are needed. Studied Target and sneak attack would also boost your damage. Sneak attack would not always be available, but when it is, would be deadly.

satio of the Steel Fang |
Ok ill most likely stick with fighter
I'm learning more in to Advance Weapon training as well
For stats it depends on the number of point buy but this is where I'm at on that
15 Point Buy STR 13 DEX 17 CON 12 INT 13 WIS 12 CHA 8
15 point Buy (Dual Talent) STR 15 DEX 18 CON 12 INT 13 WIS 12 CHA 8
20 point Buy STR 14 DEX 17 CON 14 INT 13 WIS 12 CHA 8
20 point Buy (Dual Talent) STR 16 dex 17 Con 14 INT 13 WIS 12 CHA 8
As for feat
1 Weapon Finesse
1 Weapon Focus
1 Two Weapon fighting
2 Deadly Agility
3 Improved Initiative
4 Weapon Specialization
5 Pirahna Strike
6 Improved TWF
7 Iron will
8 Improved Critical
9 Critical focus
Or replace Human Bonus feat with a +2 To STR or Dex
1 weapon focus
1 Weapon Finesse
2 Deadly agility
3 Two Weapon Fighting
4 Weapon Specialization
5 Piranha Strike
6 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7 Iron will
8 Improved Critical
9 Critical focus
For my 9th level advance Weapon option I'll likely go focused Weapon.
Trained grace sounds good however I'm just not sure if it means as much as just having a dex mod of 5 or 6 (when I'm able to get to that point.
The idea of doubling my weapon training bonus sounds nice but most of our games die at or before 12th level so I just don't think the bonus will be at a high enough level to warrant the class feature .

satio of the Steel Fang |
@ Tottemas
You know i have no idea why i put 16 in strength. Think I got confused.
Well for damage its what?
1D4 weapon bonus likely +2 weapon Spec
+ what ever my dex is + Piranha Strike + weapon training
I saw your other post
I've never used stuff like hurtful or those other feat and I have never seen then in action so I guess I'm not sure how the damage gets to 100+ DPR
And truthly I want to make my character strong but not over do it. I don't want a game im in to turn in to much of an arms race

Tottemas |
well lv 6 is prob your biggest power spike and by then you could have two +1 weapons and a +2 belt. when using piranha strike your main hand will deal 1d4+13 dmg and your off hand 1d4+8 (both piranha strike and your dex is halved for off hand attacks)
against AC 19 your +10/+10/+5/+5 attacks would deal about ~28 total dmg if you get to full attack. (this includes crits)
i dont know how you would define "strong" but a barbarian or bloodrager with just power attack and a nodachi would deal ~30 dmg by now. that feels like the baseline for calling yourself strong. youve spent all of your feats, can do nothing but fight, and youre barely there starting at lv 6
if you want a build that feels "strong" and expect to play it from lv 1 to 9, i would not look at fighter or slayer. they take too long to come online. but i know ive seen a good brawler/medium multiclass that would fit the bill if youre interested

Tottemas |
there is no GM! only white room math!
>:I
no but srsly, i could say that "the powerattacking barbarian will on average outperform the proposed twf fighter at all AC values between 14 and 31" but its a lot easier to just give a dmg estimate
if your only contribution is dmg and youre worse than a core barbarian with power attack then id rethink the character. especially if you spend the first five levels stuck in a valley of suck

Mysterious Stranger |

A better way to build the character would be to take deadly agility as early as possible. Also use your 5th level normal feat to gain an additional advanced weapon option and pick up focused weapon at 5th level. At 9th level use your advanced weapon option for Armed Bravery to gain your bravery bonus on all will saves instead of iron will. Gaining Focused Weapon early makes the build a lot more viable. At 10th level the your damage from the Kukri goes up to 1d10.
1) Weapon Finesse
1) Deadly Agility
1) Two Weapon Fighting
2) Piranha Strike
3) Weapon Focus
4) Weapon Specialization
5) Advanced Weapon Training (Feat used to gain Focused Weapon)
6) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7) Double Slice
8) Improved Critical
9) Greater Weapon Focus
Don't skip greater weapon focus. With the extra attacks it value is increased. It not only increases your chance to hit, it also improves your chance of confirming a critical hit.

Mysterious Stranger |

If you go slayer, you can use slayer talents to pick up ranger combat style two weapon fighting. This allows you to ignore the prerequisite for feats gained through taking those talents. This means you can build a STR based two weapon build. Take power attack and weapon focus at first level. Use slayer talents at 2nd, 6th and 10th level to pick up two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting and either greater two weapon fighting or double slice. Accomplished Sneak Attacker will get you an extra d6 of sneak attack. Take improved critical if you want, but keep in mind that sneak attack damage is not multiplied on a critical hit.
You can also pick up combat expertise and quick dirty trick to use your first attack to blind your target which would allow you to get your sneak attack damage on the rest of your attacks. Greater dirty trick would also be useful. Doing this will take up all your feats and talents up till 9th level. You will need to take the combat trick to pick up an extra combat feat if you go this route.
If you don’t go with my optional suggestions the rest of your feats and talent can be spent on other things. This character would deal less damage but have a lot more things they can do out of combat.

Northern Spotted Owl |
If you go slayer, you can use slayer talents to pick up ranger combat style two weapon fighting. This allows you to ignore the prerequisite for feats gained through taking those talents. This means you can build a STR based two weapon build. Take power attack and weapon focus at first level. Use slayer talents at 2nd, 6th and 10th level to pick up two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting and either greater two weapon fighting or double slice. Accomplished Sneak Attacker will get you an extra d6 of sneak attack. Take improved critical if you want, but keep in mind that sneak attack damage is not multiplied on a critical hit.
You can also pick up combat expertise and quick dirty trick to use your first attack to blind your target which would allow you to get your sneak attack damage on the rest of your attacks. Greater dirty trick would also be useful. Doing this will take up all your feats and talents up till 9th level. You will need to take the combat trick to pick up an extra combat feat if you go this route.
If you don’t go with my optional suggestions the rest of your feats and talent can be spent on other things. This character would deal less damage but have a lot more things they can do out of combat.
We had a slayer built along these lines. He took improved crit, two weapon, power attack, and wielded two wakizashi. Impressive damage overall.

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I was thinking of gloves of dueling, not the sash. Increase weapon training by 2,use trained grace, keep strength at 14.
But I'm just spit balling ideas. I feel like it's better to free up a couple feats and ignore dex to damage and double slice.
I like to keep some strength bonus for skill checks and stuff.

Mysterious Stranger |

Improved two weapon fighting has a prerequisite of DEX 17. Since weapon finesse uses DEX to hit you will want to have at least an 18 DEX, but probably higher. Trained Grace has a prerequisite of 9th level fighter. At that level Trained Grace will give you a +4 bonus to damage, which is the same as an 18 DEX gives. Trained Grace also uses up the characters advanced weapon training. The character would be better off taking Focused Weapon and doing d8 damage instead of d4. Focused weapon is so good for a fighter build that they should be using their 5th level feat to gain it at 5th level. Armed Bravery basically gives a fighter good will saves. That is much better than Trained Grace. Trained Grace is only useful for a two-handed finesse build. For something like an elven curve blade or a spiked chain it can be useful, but for a two-weapon fighting build it is a trap.
If you want a STR based build Slayer is the way to go and they do not get access to trained grace. If you are worried about skills the slayer is also the superior choice.

Mysterious Stranger |

If you went slayer with VMC bard you could get Accomplished Sneak Attack, Dirty Fighting, Improved Critical, Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Quick Dirty Trick, and Two Weapon Fighting by 9th level. This is assuming you are human, and you will be using your slayer talents to pick up Improved Dirty Fighting (Underhanded Trick) and Quick Dirty Fighting (Combat Trick). That will with a 20 STR give you four attacks at +11/+6 doing 1d4+13 +4d6 sneak attack, and +11/+6 doing 1d4+7 +4d6 sneak attack for the offhand. This build is heavy reliant on sneak attack damage. You can use the human FC to get an extra slayer talent.
I am not sure what you expect to gain for out of combat utility form the bard VMC. You don’t have that many knowledge skills as class skills so bardic knowledge is a lot less useful. Putting in a point and getting a +8 bonus is fairly decent but putting in a point and only getting +5 is not. You don’t get lore master till 15th level so cannot take 10 or 20 on knowledge skills till then. Bardic performance will take a standard action so will prevent you from attacking. At 11th level they become a swift action but studied target is also a swift action. Since perform is not a class skill and you will probably not have a good CHA versatile performance is not that good.
If you want to have out of combat utility put some points into INT and use your FCB for skills. With a 12 INT a human slayer gets 9 skill points per level. Silver Tongue trades out skilled so that actually reduces out of combat utility. Use your other feats to boost your out of combat ability. Swap the bonus feat for focused study which will give you skill focus on two skills at 8th level and by 12th you will get skill focus on three skills. Use the feats you would have lost for VMC to boost out of combat utility. If you take skill focus on perception and sense motive and alertness you will gain massive bonuses on both at 10th level. Don’t forget that studied target applies to both those skills.

Mysterious Stranger |

Slayer is basically a combination of Ranger and Rogue. They can be built to be nearly any type of sneaky combatant. If you take Trap finding you can be a rogue that does not suck at combat, but they can also be a lot more. With the right archetype or slayer talent and feats they can be built to be many different things. They make great assassins, spies, some excel vs specific opponent, and some are warriors with strange mystic powers. What are you looking for your character to do out of combat?
The problem with Vanguard is that it replaces the 2nd level slayer talent. You are using that to pick up two weapon fighting which means you would have to put that off. You could use your 3rd level feat to pick up extra slayer talent or you would have to wait till 4th level.
Personally, I like the Stygian Slayer archetype. Being able to go invisible makes it easier to get sneak attack. The ability to use some wands, scrolls and staves makes for an interesting martial character.
Slayers get all social skills except diplomacy as class skills. They also get all the skills needed to sneak in places (Acrobatic, Climb, Stealth, and Swim). That gives them lots of out of combat utility.

Nosta1300 |
out of combat ? Id say a scout , some one who is decently Knowledgeable
I am not good at playing party faces so not that
IM currently running an Archer in a a game well 4 and My perception is very decent.
Idk if id be able to play this character where talking about so it might be tabled to later unless my archer bites the dust.
i started with fighter but since my archer is also a fighter Id figure i should consider the slayer option
Id be stuck playing a human for game story and lore reasons
and I like the idea of my character Being skilled with two Blades even if its not the most effective at dealing damage. I actually see my character as Dirty scoundrel who will do what he needs to do to win a fight but the idea of having some useful skills and ability out of combat could be fun i think

Mysterious Stranger |

Slayers make great scouts and don’t need to be the face. They can easily do the dirty scoundrel. Focus mostly on skills like Bluff, Disguise, Perception, and Stealth. But also put some points Acrobatics, Climb, Sense Motive, Survival and Swim. If you take the slayer talent trap finding add Disable Device to the list of focused skills. Basically, you are a rogue that is actually good at fighting.
Instead of taking skill focus for sense motive take it for stealth and pick up Hellcat Stealth instead of alertness. Being able to use stealth while under direct observation is very useful in or out of combat.

Nosta1300 |
ok from the looks of thing the soonest id be playing this character would have it at level 4 if my Fighter Dies in the game im in
So for feats something like
1 Power Attack
HB (Traded out for focused study = Skill focus stealth)
2 Two weapon Fighting
3 Not sure
4 weapon Focus (Via talent)
5 Double Slice
I guess Two Questions then
1: I know i can build around strength but would it more useful to build Dex if im going a Stealth build. I know hellcat stealth is cool but still
-10 to skill seems not good to me.
would going something like
1 Weapon finesse
HB (Traded out for focused study = Skill focus stealth)
2 Two weapon fighting
3 Deadly Agility
4 Weapon focus (via talent)
5 Double slice
I guess what should my Stealth Bonus look like by the time i can take hellcat stealth ?

Mysterious Stranger |

For me the primary reason for slayer is to use a STR based build. That allows you to use those feats and class resources for other things. If you go DEX based, you will not have that flexibility. Going slayer will still give you more skill points and better class skills, but that is and the bonuses for studied target are about it.
The STR based build will probably not qualify for double slice until 10th level. You need at least a 15 DEX for double slice. unless you are using a 25 point buy that might be difficult.
Either way will work it is just a matter of what you want out of the character. The main reason for Hellcat Stealth is that will allow you to be able to get sneak attack more often.