
Sysryke |
This might be more of a homebrew or 3pp question, so those sources are welcome here too.
I'm wondering what fine size creatures or races are out there. I know that massive deviations from small and medium can mess with party balance. However lets assume an appropriate setting and amenable group. I love the feel of an Antman style character or background. Maybe a mouse instead. What I'm wondering is, is there some combination of race, feats, spells, or powers that could let me play as fine sized at least semi-consistently? Need to still have functional appendages and mobility. I'm not talking about movement rate. I'm okay if that sucks. Just don't want to be stuck as a polymorphed quill or other minuscule inanimate object. Bonus points and thanks the sooner/lower level this is acheiveable.

avr |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

Just about any creature fine size from Paizo is a component of a swarm. Go to Frog God Games and you can get a fine-size witchlight as a familiar, and this in turn lets you use the marionette possession or familiar melding spells on it.
Alternately and Paizo-compliant you could get a diminutive familiar (there are several), cast reduce person on it via share spells and then possess it as above. It'll only be fine-size for the duration of the reduce person spell obviously.
Arcane eye gets you a fine-size thing you control, but it's not you in any way.

MrCharisma |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

OBJECT POSESSION plus GLOVE OF STORING. I don't know how useful it is, but it should get you down to size.
Other than that I think Avr is right, you'll find more swarms than single creatures at that size.
(Actually would posession on an ant work?)

avr |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

Oh yeah, there's the earsend spell. Turns your ear into a flying fine-size construct. No appendages to speak of, and the spell desperately needs errata (what does 'functions like skinsend' mean in terms of the ear's capabilities or what the spell does to the rest of your body? Target: creature touched, whuh?), but the spell is there.
The smallest character I've seen played was an atomie magus, BTW.

Sysryke |
I like this, but how well does it fit into character creation rules? I don't really care about Society play, but we do try and stay close enough to the rules to help keep the PCs at least semi-balanced versus one and other. I know being that small is inherently limiting on combat and carry capacity, but stealth becomes nigh un-godly.

VoodistMonk |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

There is very little official content on EX-familiars. I think they are treated as their previous master's HD-2 for all of their abilities that rely on their virtual HD. The abilities would be stuck at this level, probably indefinitely, but at least until you had actual HD derived from class levels to surpass your virtual HD.
Other than that, it's all up to your imagination and what your GM allows.
As for balance issues. Well, you won't be participating in melee combat since your weapons don't do damage and you don't threaten anything. This leaves spellcasting. Which is what PF1 is all about, anyways.
The pocket blaster is to be feared and hated by all. I think this is the only way you can make an unbalanced mouse, actually. Don't be a blaster. Spells and spell damage do not care about your size. However, you are essentially impossible to target by the enemy, so it's just not fair or fun for either side.
A utility magic, buffer would be good. A debuffing focused caster would probably run into the same balance issues as the blaster, though. Battlefield control specialist would be hilarious, because a pit or wall is HUGE compared to the mouse that created it.
Be a mouse with a Raven familiar that you ride on to solve your mobility issues.

Sysryke |
Thanks for the tips there. I like a lot of these ideas. Scalability is always a concern, but this helps put things on a more even keel. Don't know if I'll see a campaign anytime soon where this is doable, but at least now I have a good base to start from. Had a "mouse" familiar once, but what I really wanted was for the familiar to be the character.
You're right about the pocket blaster though. Even with my small shrunk to tiny caster, that was an issue. I know the game is designed from a medium/small perspective; but it would be great to see some size tiers and spell scales. A firefly's glow is a full light spell from it's perspective.

VoodistMonk |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

Think about how powerful the mouse sees itself when it casts a 20' high wall of fire that extends 140'...
A mouse is, what, 4" tall if it were standing on its hind legs, wearing a robe and Wizard hat?
From his perspective, he is incapable of naturally seeing where his wall of fire ends. He has manifested a wall of flame out of thin air that literally goes as far as his eyes can see.
Epic.
For everyone else, it's just your average, inconvenient wall of fire. Seen it before. Got the t-shirt.
If magic was to scale with size, the same wall casted by a 6' tall medium creature would be 360' tall, and 2520' long... and that's the earliest you can cast Wall of Fire. We don't want magic scaling with size, at all. Too many things larger than the average character that cast spells.
A 4" tall character would cast a 1' tall wall that was 7' long... if we scaled it the other way around.

Sysryke |
Sorry. Wasn't trying to suggest that all spells should scale to size. You are absolutely correct that that would mess everything up.
I think the best explanation I could come up with would be some kind of planar or demi-plane type rules. Special circumstance rules.
Think Ant-Man, or Honey I Shrunk the Kids type set ups, but with magic.
For instance; let's say there's this entire culture of bugs, mites, and other infinitesimal beings exiting in the Pathfinder world, but only really aware of there own part of it from there very tiny perspectives. They may still have magic users, fighters, and all the rest. From there perspective a lightning bolt would still do its several d6's of damage and mow down a row of enemies. From the perspective of a medium sized PC, they might just notice a visible discharge of static electricity.
The next step then comes when something happens to take a group of PC's into this shifted perspective/realm. If they're a caster, they're magic should still work, but scale to their new size/perspective. That way you don't have a whole group of basically gods showing up amongst Bugtropolis.
I think the closest mechanic I've heard of that would match this were the normal and mega(?) hit points from Rifts. This is obviously a niche concept or campaign style, I just think it could be fun to explore a bit. Basically, the determining factor would be the character's original size/perspective. Going back to the mouse: if you're a mouse caster brought up in a human's world then you learn "medium perspective" magic and your lightning bolt is the one we know. If you are a caster mouse from a mouse society (or something smaller) you're magic is scaled to that world. When you finally encounter the enormous (medium) beings, you're lightning bolt is more like that bit of static, or maybe electric jolt at best.
Like I said. I agree with you. Normal settings and rules, please no size scaling. This is more a question of whole environmental shifts.

Sysryke |
On a physical side of things though. Consider those fine size creatures that do no damage with their natural attacks. A human getting bitten by a mouse might not take a hit point of damage; but a green sting scorpion of other diminuative vermin absolutely should. I know there are only so many real world mechanics that can be covered. Just an interesting thought exercise.

Sysryke |
Not trying to violate forum etiquette. This post may be considered "bumping" or "necroing" my own thread. Not sure I'm even using those terms correctly. Any GENTLE admonishments/corrections are appreciated.
That being said, didn't want to start a new thread, when this question is still in the same vein.
Would there be any rules legit way to use higher level Druid's Wild Shape to become a diminutive animal, then get shrunk that final step to fine size? I think the prohibitions of polymorph effects stacking stops me here, but I'm not as rules savy as many of you.
Alternately, is there a feat that would let me access fine size (and/or gargantuan) animals to become? I think I remember seeing something like this from 3.x D&D, but I have no idea what/where.

avr |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

'In addition, other spells that change size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.' - wild shape generally works as per polymorph spells.
The feat you're thinking of is in the Epic Level Handbook.
Fine Wild Shape
( Epic Level Handbook, p. 56)[Epic, Wild]
You can wild shape into animals of Fine size.
Prerequisite
Ability to wild shape into a Diminutive creature,Benefit
You can use your wild shape to take the shape of a Fine animal.Normal
Without this feat, you cannot wild shape into an animal smaller than Tiny size.
You need to take diminutive wild shape too implicitly, though it's not directly listed as a prereq that's common in D&D material.

Sysryke |
Thanks to you both. Could I get that title Doc C? I'm not the most search savvy.
Also, to any and everyone, any thoughts, ideas, or experiences on/in a shrunken world type campaign or story arc?
Wondering mechanically if there is a way to give fine size creatures natural attacks that can actually do damage (even just 1 hp), short of homebrewed beasties.
Aside from that, any story elements or anecdotes are welcome.

MrCharisma |

Quixote |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

Has anybody played in any Microsized stories? with or without these supplemental rules
I have a campaign setting called The Great Wood, where everyone plays an anthropomorphic forest critter. The first time we had a mouse wizard, a quail cleric, an otter bard, a bluejay rogue, a redwing blackbird ranger-barbarian and a porcupine priest.
After that, there was a salamander sorcerer, a painted turtle druid with a dragonfly companion, a demolitionist mole and a swashbuckling hummingbird.All I did was shift the median of the size categories down; a mouse or finch is Small, squirrels and rabbits are Medium and the porcupine and the farmer's cat were Large. Humans were effectively titans, etc.
It amounted to a pretty successful--if rather over-the-top--
few games.

Quixote |

Oh, jeeze. A lot of from-the-gut judgement calls, honestly. Gave everyone equal ability score modifiers, except birds got way less and effectively Large animals had fairly steep penalties to hopefully make everyone more or less balanced. Kept special abilities scarce and as simple as possible; porcupines had armor spikes, moles had light blindness and tremorsense, rabbits got Run for free, etc.

Sysryke |
doc chaos wrote:I believe it's called Microsized adventures.This is something I've had in my favourites for a while, but haven't gotten round to playing yet. It looks amazing!
It has a 5 star average rating ... from 3 reviews. So I take that as a good sign but certainly not a guarantee.
Forgive me for necroing an old thread of mine, but can anyone help me find a fresh link to that title "Microsized Adventures". I've tried the old link and it keeps booting me off the site and trying to make me sign in again. I finally have some spare funds, and I want to get this book for my group, so of course now technology tries to thwart me :p

Sysryke |
Linky from DrivethruRPG
Thanks so much. Got it ordered, and I should hopefully get it next month (went with the cheapest delivery option). Cheers!