How do prepared casters prepare better (in a circumstance vacuum)?

[Sysryke]

I'm going down a questions rabbit hole, but hopefully this is my last new thread for a little while.

I'm wondering how prepared casters make the most out of the "prepared" feature. I understand scouting, choosing gold standard or high versatility spells, and leaving empty slots. What I'm curious about is what class specific/unique options these characters have to mitigate poor spell selection.

If somehow you have no information about where you are, no allies to advise you, and no foreknowledge from the GM, what can these characters do to inform their spell choices for the day?

For instance, a wizard's familiar can be sent to scout and then advise. Anyone with divination spells can try those, but which spells are best for giving insight into your spell prep for each class? Within the confines of their own class features and their own actions, what other abilities do each class possess to help them make better choices?

[Joynt Jezebel]

This is a strange question to try to answer.

First you are almost never in a circumstance vacuum. Likewise you are never 100% sure of exactly what you will encounter. You can get fairly close to either extreme, but it is rare, especially the first I think.

Second, you scout, use information gaining spells and do detective work to find information. So if you are information poor you wait for spell preparation, then memorize and use divination then rest and prepare again. As to spells to use here, the only answer I can give is I believe "Ears of the City" is something of an under rated gem. Only works in urban areas of course.

What I do, and most other players do I think, is have a default spell list of the most powerful and generally useful spells that I modify according to circumstances.

Lastly, a word on my favourite class the witch. Witches have hexes which they can't change from day to day but that a witch can and should use to solve many of the problems of the game. This has a big effect on how witches relate to their spells memorised as compared to other arcane casters. A wizard out of spells is normally near useless, while a witch in the same circumstances has markedly reduced options but is still potent.

Paradoxically, where a wizard has an extra spell per level, the fact a witch preserves spells by using hexes means their spells last longer. Witches have more scope to mould their spell selection to circumstances, including information droughts than a wizard does.

[Sysryke]

Excellent insight into the Witch. That sort of analysis is part of what I'm looking for.

As to the circumstance vacuum, I realize that no such state exists. I explained this poorly, but I'm trying to limit the variables and scope of my inquiry. Put another way, IF HYPOTHETICALLY, you can't rely on allies or skills to provide you with information, the GM won't provide any information without game mechanical means justification, and you have no context clues about where you are or what you might be facing, what can your character do?

Basically you only have the knowledge and powers of your own character at your disposal, and all you know is that you will wake up and be able to prepare your spells. What divination spells or other class features can each prepared casting class use to aquire information to not have to make their choices utterly blind, and more than just player experience and strategy?

[Azothath]

it is rather simple and you are just creating/inflating fears.
Wizards are the most powerful class due to their spell list, bonded object, magic items, and the ways spells can change and lessen challenges.
Prepared casters need several protections/buffs, attacks, and maybe some utilities. The bonded object and known(scribed) spells provide flexibility along with class abilities, magic items, metamagics.
Spell selection; Some spells are underperformers or bad, so just avoid those.
Buffs always do well as you enhance your allies, so easy choices. Same for battlefield control spells as they rely on current environment.
Attacks are pretty simple as they are 'by the numbers'. You want an array to affect hardened targets like constructs, undead, and outsiders.

Think of it as resource management.
You want a wand of frequently handy protections/buffs/healing (as wand DCs are low) to supplant or support your prepared spells. Examples are; Obsc Mist, Infrnl Heal, Shield, Ill of Calm.
Scrolls cost more so you want these for infrequent spells like Comp Languages, Endr Elements, B Endurance, Sure Casting. Usually 2-4 (identical) spells on a scroll.
Memorized spells will have your highest DCs and durations. You want many known spells (I aim for 5 at initial spell level gains then 12-16 later, you can pre-learn spells to scribe before you can cast them) as that increases the utility of your bonded object and some pearls of power to repeat some castings.
Around 10th level you'll get a Blessed book to scribe your spells, sell your existing set, and (in a more competitive gritty campaign) scribe new backups at half cost (to recover 25% rather than 50%).

Just review several of the caster builds I've posted. There are guides to the spells in various form on threads and documents.
Class: Wizard diviner(then feats on another school), evoker, summoner school specialists are good class choices. Feats mean you have to specialize.

[Dragonchess Player]

For prepared casters, a fairly effective strategy is to have two or three "standard load outs" for the day's expected activities: dungeon (combat-heavy, short ranges, small spaces), social/urban (combat-light, minimize collateral damage), and possibly wilderness (mix of combat and exploration, few if any limits on mobility, long ranges, wide AoEs). Note that these "standard load outs" can be often used as starting points to tailor the selection if you do have an idea about the specific encounters and challenges that are expected for that day (e.g., enemies with specific resistances and/or weaknesses, environmental conditions [water breathing for flooded areas], etc.).

[Joynt Jezebel]

Sysryke- The other 2 respondents are giving answers that are at least largely correct. I also doubt they are the kind of answers you are looking for.

I had a look at witch spells to level 3 and found Ears of the City, Commune with Birds, Detect thoughts [sort of] and Planar inquiry. Read thoughts can also be very useful but you need something to go on for it to be any use.

Even more powerful spell like Contact other plane [a witch spell] or commune in its various forms [you need divine casters for these] all fall short of completely solving information problems.

I think this is deliberate design. Spells can be powerful tools to gather info but normally it does part of the job. The spell tends to point you in the right direction [when it works] but usually you have to search out something or make like Sherlock Holmes.

Another thing worth mentioning is having someone in the party with a familiar with commune is a real boon. It saves you 500gp each time it is used and you don't have to have the spell memorised.

[Azothath]

spell search Divination is the arcane school of information gathering and those spells can help with knowing what to prepare for the next adventuring day or days.
Augury, speak with ___, commune, seek thoughts, clairvoyance, and scry are all used for that.

[Sysryke]

Azothath wrote:

it is rather simple and you are just creating/inflating fears.

Wizards are the most powerful class due to their spell list, bonded . . .

I'm not creating any fears. I wasn't asking about why prepared casters are good or bad, or how/why Wizard's are the best. I'm not even really asking for advice on spell selection or builds (except maybe divinations). That's why this is a general discussion thread, and not an advice one.

What I was wondering about was the features different prepared caster classes have to help them prepare useful/relevant spells each day. Any player can read guides and try to make good strategic choices. What I'm asking about is what other abilities can a character use to guide those choices?

Can a Cleric or Druid somehow commune with the Divine and get advice about what spells they'll need? Can a Wizard use some type of divination? What about Witches, Paladins, Alchemists, Rangers, Shamans, and the rest? Are there other features besides spells? If only spells, which spell(s) for each class give the most reliable glimpse or direction from the future?

This isn't a critique of prepared casting. This is just wondering how these characters manage this challenge.

[Sysryke]

Dragonchess Player wrote:

For prepared casters, a fairly effective strategy is to have two or three "standard load outs" for the day's expected activities: dungeon (combat-heavy, short ranges, small spaces), social/urban (combat-light, minimize collateral damage), and possibly wilderness (mix of combat and exploration, few if any limits on mobility, long ranges, wide AoEs). Note that these "standard load outs" can be often used as starting points to tailor the selection if you do have an idea about the specific encounters and challenges that are expected for that day (e.g., enemies with specific resistances and/or weaknesses, environmental conditions [water breathing for flooded areas], etc.).

I get the strategy point. What I'm asking is, what class specific features do different classes have to get the information they need to "tailor" their spells? This is where the hypothetical circumstance vacuum comes in. For this discussion, assume that there are no allies to help scout, and mundane skills don't work. What, if any, unique options does a Ranger, vs. a Druid, vs. a Psychic, vs. a Warpriest, etc. have?

[Sysryke]

Joynt Jezebel wrote:

Sysryke- The other 2 respondents are giving answers that are at least largely correct. I also doubt they are the kind of answers you are looking for.

I had a look at witch spells to level 3 and found Ears of the City, Commune with Birds, Detect thoughts [sort of] and Planar inquiry. Read thoughts can also be very useful but you need something to go on for it to be any use.

Even more powerful spell like Contact other plane [a witch spell] or commune in its various forms [you need divine casters for these] all fall short of completely solving information problems.

I think this is deliberate design. Spells can be powerful tools to gather info but normally it does part of the job. The spell tends to point you in the right direction [when it works] but usually you have to search out something or make like Sherlock Holmes.

Another thing worth mentioning is having someone in the party with a familiar with commune is a real boon. It saves you 500gp each time it is used and you don't have to have the spell memorised.

That's the kind of thing I'm looking for :)

Theoretically, a Wizard could try to always save one (or however many) divination spells from the previous day, and cast them to guide his next day's spell prep. Sacrificing a few spell slots, to have a greater chance of ensuring all his other spells get to be utilized.

Does it all come down to Divination though? Or, are there other class features that can provide insight/guidance/luck to make "better" preparation choices?

[Sysryke]

Azothath wrote:

spell search Divination is the arcane school of information gathering and those spells can help with knowing what to prepare for the next adventuring day or days.

Augury, speak with ___, commune, seek thoughts, clairvoyance, and scry are all used for that.

Thank you Azothath. This is more what I was wondering about.

[Azothath]

here are some specific build examples. All of them have wide choices in spells and knowledge skills to facilitate information gathering and knowing what will work best in a situation. A caster needs both.

•> Sor arch Razmiran Prst at 5th & 11th along with a Clr1 Wiz4|10 for comparison (PFS style)
& Wiz (diviner) with Cleric Varisian Prst 1 multiclass at 5 & 11 (PFS style)
•> Mage-killer build FlowMonk2 Wiz(Divnr)7 (PFS style)
•> Wiz Spell-sage 5 & 11 builds (PFS style)
•> Wiz Poleiheira Adhr 8 builds (PFS style)
•> Bard7 builds (PFS style)
•> Cleric Varisian Plgrm w Paladin build (PFS style)

[Azothath]

In my play experience there are core (attack) spells that are chosen for metamagics, core buff spells, then about 1/3 in defense/movement/utility spells.
Tailoring mainly is in attack energy types or no SR/no save types. At 5th level a caster has less choice than at 10th level.
Usually environmental/story descriptions and initial adventuring meetings (know checks) lead to spell selection. Many scenarios are one shots. As noted above you rely on wands and scrolls for variance (what you can pull out of your magic hat).
A fine strategy is to leave an open spell slot on most Spell Levels so you can prepare a few once you know more. Getting the Party to wait 30min is more the issue.

[Joynt Jezebel]

Sysryke wrote:

Excellent insight into the Witch. That sort of analysis is part of what I'm looking for.

Since witches are what I know best, I thought I would finish answering the question.

Hexes don't do much for gathering information of this kind. Hag Eye and Beast Skin are good greater hexes useful for gathering information, but they facilitate spying. The grand hex Summon spirit should be of use, but I have never had it so can't really confirm. Summon a ghost that knows what you are trying to find out is the idea.

Familiars with commune or other information gathering spells will work.

Apart from that it is just spells.

[Belafon]

Sysryke wrote:

Does it all come down to Divination though? Or, are there other class features that can provide insight/guidance/luck to make "better" preparation choices?

Basically, yes.

Your premise is that you are in an information vacuum, and have no idea what would be good choices. There are tons and tons of things you could do to get out of the information vacuum if you had that option (send the party rogue to scout before you prepare, ask your commanding officer what your mission for the day will be, etc.), but that's not the premise. And there are quite a few class and feat options that give you more flexibility (like Magical Epiphany or Planned Spontaneity). But again, not what you are looking for.

But even the class features that would give you a "sneak peak" are divinations. Usually some variation on divination or commune. Examples: Wind Listener wizard or Rivethune Emmisary prestige class.

[Mysterious Stranger]

As important as knowing what you are facing is for a prepared caster there is another thing that is nearly equally important for them to know. Knowing the abilities of your party is almost as important as knowing what you are going to be facing. That information is something the prepared caster should always have. With the right spells the wizard can usually cover most roles especially out of combat.

If you lack a stealthy character invisibility can often be used to get that done. In some cases, the wizard can even cast it on someone else instead of casting it on themselves. Casting invisibility on the halfling swashbuckler is going to be more effective than the wizard casting it on themselves.

Another thing the wizard can do is to use his spells to fix obvious weaknesses in other party members. Casting Heroism on a character with only one good save can really boost their survival rate, on a rogue it also boosts all their skill and chance to hit so is incredibly effective. Any monk is going to be grateful for the wizard casting mage armor to boost his AC.

As other have mentioned divination spells can give you a clue on what you might be facing. Clerics have some good divination spells for this. If there is a cleric in the party memorizing one of these can help the party wizard by alleviating the information vacuum. Cooperation between characters will make all characters stronger.

[Dragonchess Player]

Sysryke wrote:

Dragonchess Player wrote:

For prepared casters, a fairly effective strategy is to have two or three "standard load outs" for the day's expected activities: dungeon (combat-heavy, short ranges, small spaces), social/urban (combat-light, minimize collateral damage), and possibly wilderness (mix of combat and exploration, few if any limits on mobility, long ranges, wide AoEs). Note that these "standard load outs" can be often used as starting points to tailor the selection if you do have an idea about the specific encounters and challenges that are expected for that day (e.g., enemies with specific resistances and/or weaknesses, environmental conditions [water breathing for flooded areas], etc.).

I get the strategy point. What I'm asking is, what class specific features do different classes have to get the information they need to "tailor" their spells? This is where the hypothetical circumstance vacuum comes in. For this discussion, assume that there are no allies to help scout, and mundane skills don't work. What, if any, unique options does a Ranger, vs. a Druid, vs. a Psychic, vs. a Warpriest, etc. have?

Unfortunately, there are so many possible permutations around the class of the character you are playing, the spells available to that character, the classes of the other PCs (and the specific abilities, skills, etc. for those characters), the playstyles of the other players (and yours, for that matter), the campaign setting, the GM's playstyle, the current situation the characters are in, etc. that you basically need to use a case-by-case approach when applying the general strategy. Quite literally, "the devil is in the details." There is no "one size fits all" way of going about this.

Basically, you need to know what spells can and can't do and how they relate to the circumstances at hand. The "standard load outs" generally emphasize "high-value" spells that would normally be selected by spontaneous casters, but a prepared caster should also have some more "limited use" selections available (e.g., water breathing) for an "empty slot."

[Sysryke]

Joynt Jezebel wrote:

Sysryke wrote:

Excellent insight into the Witch. That sort of analysis is part of what I'm looking for.

Since witches are what I know best, I thought I would finish answering the question.

Hexes don't do much for gathering information of this kind. Hag Eye and Beast Skin are good greater hexes useful for gathering information, but they facilitate spying. The grand hex Summon spirit should be of use, but I have never had it so can't really confirm. Summon a ghost that knows what you are trying to find out is the idea.

Familiars with commune or other information gathering spells will work.

Apart from that it is just spells.

Actually, that all sounds exactly like what I'm asking about. Hexes are different from spells, and familiars I would consider to be part of a character. Sending out your familiar to scout is definitely one way to get some extra info before you commit to your choices for the day. I get that most of the time a caster has allies, can draw on past experience and/or context clues, or just have a reliable list of preset spell packages based on statistically useful spells, but it's nice to have some extra options if you find yourself somewhere strange and on your own.

Now, about other prepared casters . . . ?

[Sysryke]

Belafon wrote:

Sysryke wrote:

Does it all come down to Divination though? Or, are there other class features that can provide insight/guidance/luck to make "better" preparation choices?

Basically, yes.

Your premise is that you are in an information vacuum, and have no idea what would be good choices. There are tons and tons of things you could do to get out of the information vacuum if you had that option (send the party rogue to scout before you prepare, ask your commanding officer what your mission for the day will be, etc.), but that's not the premise. And there are quite a few class and feat options that give you more . . .

Thank you. You actually summed up my idea more clearly and succinctly than I could manage. Your right that the feats don't quite match the premise. They're neither class unique, nor providing foreknowledge. However, that kind of flexibility does come near the spirit of this inquiry, raising the chance of not having wasted prepared spells. I'm glad to have learned about those feats.

It's good to know about those other class features you alluded to. I actually think those do satisfy the premise. I didn't mean to imply that divination was excluded or objectionable. I just was looking for options beyond divination spells. SLAs and SU abilities are perfect. If spells are the only "sneak peek" options available to a certain class, then I'm curious which ones are best.

[Sysryke]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

As important as knowing what you are facing is for a prepared caster there is another thing that is nearly equally important for them to know. Knowing the abilities of your party is almost as important as knowing what you are going to be facing. That information is something the prepared caster should always have. With the right spells the wizard can usually cover most roles especially out of combat.

If you lack a stealthy character invisibility can often be used to get that done. In some cases, the wizard can even cast it on someone else instead of casting it on themselves. Casting invisibility on the halfling swashbuckler is going to be more effective than the wizard casting it on themselves.

Another thing the wizard can do is to use his spells to fix obvious weaknesses in other party members. Casting Heroism on a character with only one good save can really boost their survival rate, on a rogue it also boosts all their skill and chance to hit so is incredibly effective. Any monk is going to be grateful for the wizard casting mage armor to boost his AC.

As other have mentioned divination spells can give you a clue on what you might be facing. Clerics have some good divination spells for this. If there is a cleric in the party memorizing one of these can help the party wizard by alleviating the information vacuum. Cooperation between characters will make all characters stronger.

All great points that I both know and completely agree with, just not entirely germane to this thread. Those are all great party tactics. This thread is about the hypothetical situation where the casting character either cannot access, use, or otherwise rely upon his allies.

[Sysryke]

@DragonChess Player

I appreciate your contributions, but I think you're failing to apprehend the premise of this thread. I would point you to Joynt Jezebel and Belafon's responses, as they've clarified my idea much better than I originally presented it. You seem to be coming at this from a player strategy perspective. Your recommendations are good advice, but things I'm mostly familiar with. I'm asking more from an in character perspective (albeit still using game mechanic terminology) what resources a prepared caster has contained within themselves and derived uniquely from their own class to guide their preparation choices.

Obviously it's impossible to account for all variables and all situations. But (making up numbers here for example), if a prepared caster normally has a 60% chance of preparing spells appropriate to the day's needs, what class features could he use to bump that up to 75 or 80%?

[Mysterious Stranger]

If you are in a situation where you cannot access, use or otherwise rely on your allies you are alone. In that case your top priority is probably your own survival. Most prepared arcane caster are really vulnerable in a solo situation. The Magus is about the only one that has any real ability to handle a solo adventure. For a wizard or witch, you are going to want to focus on avoidance and protection. When selecting combat spells fire and forget spells like summoning will be your best bet. Spells that can be used multiple times will also be good choices vs single use spells.

The magus spell list is a lot more focused on combat and lacks the versatility of other arcane casters. Other than increasing the number of defensive spells, what they prep will not change that much.

For divine casters it will depend on their build a lot more. If the character is fairly decent in combat, then they will probably be looking to prepare spells that buff their characters combat ability. Clerics that are not combat focused will have a harder time. They will usually have better defense than arcane casters so do not need protections spells as much. Unfortunately, they don’t have as much in the way of avoidance spells as arcane casters. Their combat spells are usually more tightly focused and less effective than arcane caster putting them at a disadvantage. Summoning will be one of their better options in when they are uncertain what they are facing. If they know they are facing undead or evil outsiders, they are better off.

When it comes to dealing with the unknown situation have a big advantage. They have more class abilities than most other full casters. Once they gain wild shape they are pretty well set. If they take Natural Spell they can simply turn into a bird and still cast spells. their spell list is also fairly diverse and includes some decent combat spells. They may not be able to match the arcane caster in offense, but they are strong enough to get the job done. The fact that they can spontaneously cast summoning spells means that even if they prep the wrong spell, they can still cast useful spells.

[Joynt Jezebel]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

If you are in a situation where you cannot access, use or otherwise rely on your allies you are alone. In that case your top priority is probably your own survival. Most prepared arcane caster are really vulnerable in a solo situation. ... For a wizard or witch, you are going to want to focus on avoidance and protection.

As Witch Advocate General I have to point out some witches have other options.

A Blood-marked Skinshifter can turn into a bat, with the appropriate feat and a Kitsune can turn into a fox with a feat or a alternative racial ability.

This allows you to hide or pass yourself off as a harmless animal or fly away if a bat. You cannot spell cast as an animal, but you can still use most hexes.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Turning into a harmless animal and escaping is avoidance. So, while you may have other options on how to avoid my point still stands. Now if you could cast spells in the animal shape that might allow for a different strategy.

As to hexes very few of them are really good in a solo situation. Something like sleep works, but you still have to get pretty close and it only affects one target at a time. Even the sleep hex is going to be more useful in allowing the witch to get away than it will be taking down the target.

[Sysryke]

So, I like all this discussion, but you're still talking "best guess" and good strategy Mr. Stranger. If there are combats upcoming, then your recommendations are useful. What I'm wondering is how to reduce the guesswork, or at least make it an educated guess when it comes to which spells to prepare.

So, the caster is "alone" either in fact or in practice. He has all the necessary time to prepare his spells, but access to only his own class features and gear. When he leaves the area of his preparations, he has no clue what the day will bring. What can he do to know wether he should be preparing for social encounters, a cave, farm or city, combat, distant travel, cold energy attacks, enchantments, research, crafting, or whatever else the cosmos is prepared to offer him?

Divination spells saved from the previous day are one answer. Sending a familiar or AC to scout is another. Witches have some info gathering hexes. What other features do the other classes have to help them choose the best spells for the day? Not Player strategy, but Character tools. Except for specific divination spells to use to guide the choice of your other spells, not which specific (or types) of spells, but other class features. We're looking for the actions to take BEFORE spell preparation and the adventuring day.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The caster might not know what he is going to encounter but should at least know what his initial goal of the day is. That goal may change as the day progresses, but he should at least know what he is starting out to do. If he is traveling to a distant city, he presumably knows something of the area he is traveling through. He does not need a spell or class feature to figure out he is in a forest or desert. If he intends to explore the mysterious ruins, he found yesterday he knows that without needing anything else.

Your most important goal is to ensure your character survives. The biggest threat to your survival will usually be combat. For that reason, you should always have some spells that allow you to deal with potential combats. After combat the next most important thing will be natural threats and obstacles. Those are usually fairly obvious so should not require much to determine.

So, while he is traveling the caster prepares general avoidance and protection spells along with some long-lasting combat spells. He also prepares any spells to deal with obvious obstacles. If the character cannot figure out that he needs protection vs the cold while traveling through snow he should not be traveling. If he encounters something he does not investigate it right away, he waits and prepares spells based on the information he has.

Some spells are going to be almost always useful and will become the default spell load. Starting with cantrip you will almost always want Detect Magic, Mage Hand and Prestidigitation. For 1st level spells Ant Haul, Mage Armor, Unseen Servant, and Silent Image would be good. The idea is to choose spells that will usually have some value. Spontaneous casters go through this when choosing their spells known.

If you are alone many of your spells will be needed to ensure your safety. Without other party members you are a lot more vulnerable. Spells like Alarm and Rope Trick will be taking up your spell slots. You will also need to be able to cover tasks other teammates may have performed or abilities you lack. Spells like Darkvsion will be helpful if you lack the ability to see in the dark.

One spell that deserves a special mention would be Heroism. It is a long-lasting buff that provides a +2 bonus to all skill rolls. That might not seem like much, but the chances are there are a lot of important skills the caster will be lacking. Extending Heroism would be a good tactic.

After you have memorized some basic combat spells, spells for avoiding obvious obstacles, divination spells to be cast the next day and left a few slots open to be filled as needed you probably will not have many spell slots left.

[Sysryke]

Keeping in mind that this whole scenario is a big hypothetical, let me try rephrasing again. The caster knows everything about herself as it relates to her identity, her capabilities, and her ability to prepare spells. But, in this scenario (as extremely far fetched as it might be), she basically has amnesia about where she is, what she was doing the day before, what she's doing now, or why. The only goal is, Be Effective. Nothing said so far is wrong, but those strategies are still based on pre-existing knowledge, probabilities, and hope. We're looking for options to narrow the scope or improve the probability that what you've prepared is the best choice possible.

A very singular example. If you don't know what's coming, how do you choose lightning bolt vs. fireball. Circumstance vacuum means, you don't know what's coming. Assuming lightning bolt because fire resistance is more common, or fire ball because it's numbers are slightly better are both metagame or strategy arguments, just playing the odds. What could the caster do to get a hunch which choice is right for the day? How do we make the odds better?

[Azothath]

Sysryke wrote:

Keeping in mind that this whole scenario is a big hypothetical, let me try rephrasing again. The caster knows everything about herself as it relates to her identity, her capabilities, and her ability to prepare spells. But, in this scenario (as extremely far fetched as it might be), she basically has amnesia about where she is, what she was doing the day before, what she's doing now, or why. The only goal is, Be Effective. Nothing said so far is wrong, but those strategies are still based on pre-existing knowledge, probabilities, and hope. We're looking for options to narrow the scope or improve the probability that what you've prepared is the best choice possible.

A very singular example. If you don't know what's coming, how do you choose lightning bolt vs. fireball. Circumstance vacuum means, you don't know what's coming. Assuming lightning bolt because fire resistance is more common, or fire ball because it's numbers are slightly better are both metagame or strategy arguments, just playing the odds. What could the caster do to get a hunch which choice is right for the day? How do we make the odds better?

that is very "theoretical" and unrealistic.

First of all, I find PCs rarely "know themselves" as they metagame all the time rather than look at their skill lists - it's a lot of projection rather than acting (hey, it's a Game...).
Secondly - they would KNOW what's coming in the moment if they made their spellcraft skill checks or (pseudo-cheat) and scry ahead.

Just do what I said above IF you're playing a Wizard.
Sorcerers, Arcanists, Witches are more constrained. Alchemists and Magus are very constrained. Clerics and Druids have a poor spell list when it comes to tricky spells as they're mostly healing, condition removal, and some protections...
Almost all SLAs are drawn from the spell lists, so nothing creatively different there.
Commune:D5 is a bit tricky as the information is biased. Your divine insight is what your deity wants you to know and act on (likely interpreted through your lawful evil imp familiar whose job it is to take your soul to hell ASAP - ROFL).

[Mysterious Stranger]

If you have no information on what you are facing and are trying to decide between two spells, look to the characteristics of the spells. Lightning Bolt has range of 120 ft., and an area of 120 ft. line. Fireball has a range of long (400 ft. + 40 ft. /level) and an area of 20 ft. radius spread. Looking at the area Fireball covers 1,256.64 square feet, compared to the 600 of Lightning Bolt. Both spells do the same amount of damage with the only difference being the type of energy. Looking at the description of Lightning Bolt you see that the bolt begins at your fingertips. So, even though the range is listed as 120 ft. it is really has no range.

When we look at the spells it is pretty obvious that Fireball is a lot more versatile. Assuming a 5th level caster I can place the fire ball in any square within 600 feet, and it has a better chance affect more targets. All other things being equal Fireball is usually going to be the best choice. If you were underground traveling through narrow tunnels a lot of the advantages of Fireball will be negated and Lightning bolt may be more a better choice. In a tunnel range is less important and the tunnels tend to force your targets to line up. If you were underground but in a vast cavern that stretches for miles the Fireball regains its advantages.

The argument that fire resistance is more common than electrical resistance ignores the fact that other than outsiders and spells or magic items energy resistance of any kind is not that common. Most natural creatures don’t have any type of energy resistance

The game mechanic that should help the prepared caster choose his spells efficiently is their high stats. Arcane casters tend to have extremely high INT and divine casters have equally high WIS. The problem is that the game has no mechanics for factoring this in on most things. Sure it helps with skills and a few other things, but for the most part having a high INT or WIS does not give the character any advantage on decisions. You would think that a character that is more intelligent than Albert Einstein would have a better chance to choose spells more efficiently than someone dumber than Al Bundy, but the game does not factor that in.

So basically compare the two spells and see which one can be useful in more circumstances. This means as a player you have to have complete understanding of all your spells down to the minute details. This is one thing that makes playing a prepared caster more difficult than a spontaneous caster. From the sound of it you are trying to find a way around this problem, but I don’t think there is one.

[Belafon]

Mysterious Stranger:

Sysryke is NOT asking “how do I (the player) choose which spells to prepare when I don’t know what is going to happen today.”

The question is “what can my character do to have a better idea of what is going to happen today, and choose the spells to prepare based on that.”

Sysryke isn’t looking for “spell X is more generally useful than Y, so prepare that when you don’t know anything.”

[Sysryke]

Azothath wrote:

Sysryke wrote:

Keeping in mind that this whole scenario is a big hypothetical, let me try rephrasing again. The caster knows everything about herself as it relates to her identity, her capabilities, and her ability to prepare spells. But, in this scenario (as extremely far fetched as it might be), she basically has amnesia about where she is, what she was doing the day before, what she's doing now, or why. The only goal is, Be Effective. Nothing said so far is wrong, but those strategies are still based on pre-existing knowledge, probabilities, and hope. We're looking for options to narrow the scope or improve the probability that what you've prepared is the best choice possible.

A very singular example. If you don't know what's coming, how do you choose lightning bolt vs. fireball. Circumstance vacuum means, you don't know what's coming. Assuming lightning bolt because fire resistance is more common, or fire ball because it's numbers are slightly better are both metagame or strategy arguments, just playing the odds. What could the caster do to get a hunch which choice is right for the day? How do we make the odds better?

that is very "theoretical" and unrealistic.

First of all, I find PCs rarely "know themselves" as they metagame all the time rather than look at their skill lists - it's a lot of projection rather than acting (hey, it's a Game...).
Secondly - they would KNOW what's coming in the moment if they made their spellcraft skill checks or (pseudo-cheat) and scry ahead.

Just do what I said above IF you're playing a Wizard.
Sorcerers, Arcanists, Witches are more constrained. Alchemists and Magus are very constrained. Clerics and Druids have a poor spell list when it comes to tricky spells as they're mostly healing, condition removal, and some protections...
Almost all SLAs are drawn from the spell lists, so nothing creatively different there.
Commune:D5 is a bit tricky as the information is biased. Your...

I'm not sure if your intent with that first line was to be critical or disparaging, but it came across that way a bit. The whole point of my question and this thread was to discuss a hypothetical situation. This is a thought experiment, and any good experiment limits as many variables as possible, no matter how realistic that setup is to the real (or game) world.

I appreciate the Wizard input, and you mentioning the "constraints" on other classes. I also realize that many class features replicate spell effects. Since I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of all spells though, I'm asking about the more limited category of each prepared class's specific features. Example: What options does the constrained Alchemist have to make better extract preparation choices? The character/class, not the player.

For the purpose of this discussion/thread/experiment the variables of circumstance, player knowledge, play style, and tactics available to all classes have been removed. Wether you like this premise or not, or wether or not this scenario is likely doesn't factor in.

[Sysryke]

Belafon wrote:

Mysterious Stranger:

Sysryke is NOT asking “how do I (the player) choose which spells to prepare when I don’t know what is going to happen today.”

The question is “what can my character do to have a better idea of what is going to happen today, and choose the spells to prepare based on that.”

Sysryke isn’t looking for “spell X is more generally useful than Y, so prepare that when you don’t know anything.”

Thank you Belafon. You understand the question I'm asking quite well. To be fair to the other posters though, the problem here is likely twofold. Firstly, I don't always phrase my thoughts and questions as clearly as I would like. I tend to try to think ahead to people's questions or confusion, get overly verbose in my pre-emptive explanations, and then muddy the issue. This is why I appreciate when someone like you can actually catch my point and distill it into clearer language.

The second issue is the tendency of many of us who are intelligent, passionate, and/or creative (which I'd say is most gamers) to sometimes fixate on our own thoughts/points/perspectives and lose the forest for the trees. I was rankling a bit at Mysterious Stranger's last post. We're still not quite having the same conversation. However, the fourth paragraph did offer a few interesting points tangential to the spirit of my enquiry, so I'm still glad for the contribution.

That said, Azothath and Mysterious Stranger, I wish to thank you both for your participation. You have however been answering the question "you think" I'm asking, in part based on what I presume are your past experiences on other threads with similar language, and in part do to my own failure to be clear AND concise. I would refer you both to Belafon's last post, and suggest you check your assumptions about what you think I'm asking. I truly look forward to reading your insights if you have more to contribute when we're on the same page.

In the broader scope. I feel I've gotten some good answers (though perhaps not exhaustive) on options for Wizards and Witches. Does anyone have anything to offer more in the way of specifics for the other prepared casting classes? Druids, Clerics, Rangers, Paladins, Alchemists, Shamans, Arcanists, WarPriests, Hunters, Investigators, and any others I may have forgotten.

[Tom Sampson]

For non-combat challenges, it is rare for there to be time pressure so sensitive that you cannot just take a 15 minute break to prepare whatever spell you deem best after you discover what the challenge is, so just leaving spell slots open tends to address those for the most part.

Druids also have access to divination spells and scouting, quite obviously. A Druid that shapeshifts into a diminutive form obtains a +12 size bonus to the stealth skill and another +6 size bonus to dexterity, totaling +15. Many animal companions are capable of sneaking about also. In addition to that, the Druid can afford to leave all his spell slots open and participate in the first combat with just his animal companion and wild shape abilities and only prepare spells accordingly afterwards, unless there is severe time pressure. The Druid can even turn into an earth elemental and use earth glide (or just rest in the sky as an air elemental, and so on) to prepare spells in a safe and unreachable location while his animal companion assists the party if anything should happen. So a Druid actually has the odd option of even going into combat blind. Druids can also choose to gamble a bit with their spell selection and rely on their ability to convert any spell that turned out to be useless into a Summon Nature's Ally spell, which tends to be rather broadly useful, especially once you start getting creative. Skill checks like Perception and Sense Motive can also provide information about your circumstances.

If a Druid wishes to use magics to obtain some kind of information about his current predicament, he can use Speak with Animals, Insect Scouts, Insect Spies, Ancestral Memory, and Commune with Nature to gather information about his situation and what sorts of challenges he may expect to be faced with. Stone Tell, Speak with Plants, and Scrying are also good for espionage.

A Ranger's options are much the same, except he has no wild shape and a weaker spell selection on the whole. But the Ranger does have additional spells to help out with stealth and perception checks. Foreknowledge does make an immense difference in how effective a Ranger is out of combat, but even if he doesn't go scouting, like the Druid, a Ranger could choose to not prepare a single spell and rely on his feats and animal companion to see him through combat and prepare accordingly once he finds out.

The Cleric is much more reliant on his choice of domains as typically Clerics do not have much in the way of stealth abilities or non-magical combat solutions and depending on their ability scores and feats they might not be able to handle combat well either. Clerics do have spells like Divination, Commune, and Ancestral Memory to inform them about their predicament. Even Augury can be used to fish for information or even directly ask whether it would be a good idea to prepare a situational spell that day. He still has a high Perception and Sense Motive, at least. And the Cleric can use various alignment-detection spells as well.

Warpriests are in the exact same situation except the Warpriest has no domain spells and its spellcasting develops more slowly.

Paladins are generally out of luck. They are typically terrible at scouting, but at least they can do "gather information" Diplomacy skill checks, if there are people around that are willing to talk. Rampant use of Detect Evil can also make it clear who the bad guys are, if they happen to be conveniently within range. Still, being Paladins, their spell list isn't really needed to handle combat encounters anyway, so once again they can afford to leave lots of slots open and fill them in as the situation develops. But the Paladin spell list isn't that versatile anyway.

Alchemist/Investigator are largely the same. They can scout with various spells to improve stealth (such as Invisibility) and perception, but for divinations their options are Detect Thoughts mainly and later on Contact Other Plane and Ancestral Memory. Other than that they can attempt various other skill checks, like diplomacy or sense motive, to gather information.

Shamans can scout with their familiars. Their hexes aren't much use for scouting, but some spirit animal abilities, such as the Lore spirit animal ability (+2 initiative, +4 stealth), can be. The Shaman typically uses spells like Augury, Insect Scouts, Divination, Commune, Commune with Nature, and Ancestral Memory. The Lore spirit also provides Contact Other Plane and whatever Wizard spells you obtained via the Arcane Enlightenment hex as well as whatever Cleric spells you obtained via the Human favored class bonus.

Arcanists have the same options that a Wizard has, except the Arcanist can afford to gamble more wildly in order to cover a wider variety of circumstances with his choice of spells because his spell slots will not go wasted so long as he has any appropriate spell, and the Shaman also has access to the Quick Study exploit that allows him to replace a prepared spell with another as a full-round action. For these two reasons, the Arcanist has an easier time developing an effective spell selection with limited information.

Hunters are actually spontaneous spellcasters.

The Magus will have to scout with Invisibility or a familiar unless he has used the Spell Blending arcana to add information-gathering spells from the Wizard list to his own spell list.

The Adept can scout with his familiar and/or the Invisibility spell. For the most part, however, the Adept is so limited in his spell list that an information vacuum makes little difference, unless the Adept has been using prestige classes or the Samsaran race's mystic past life to expand his spell list.

[Sysryke]

Excellent breakdown Tom! Thanks for jumping in :)

[Tom Sampson]

You're welcome. And there's one more thing I missed: divine spellcasters do not have any requirement to sleep in order to recover their spells. So if you cast spells rampantly right before the appointed hour of meditation as a divine spellcaster, you still recover all your spells.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Druids and clerics both have the ability to convert their prepared spells to other spells. This means that even if they prepare the wrong spells, they can still often use these slots productively. The druid's ability to spontaneously cast summoning spells means they can still use their spell slots in combat even if all their spell choices are wrong.

The Herald Caller archetype gives the cleric the ability to spontaneously cast summon monster spells in addition to healing spells. That means the Herald Caller always has 3 choices of what to use his spell slots for. He can cast the prepared spell, a summon monster or a cure spell. The archetype also gets augmented summoning and superior summoning without having to actually spend the feats. About the only summoning feat they need to actually take would be sacred summons. With this archetype you might not even need to actually cast most of the spells you actually memorized.

Rangers and Paladins actually have it easier than full casters for this. Their spell casting is very limited and is gained late. Because they are so far behind other casters most of their offensive spells are not that powerful. Between their lower level and lower casting stat the DC of their offensive spells are often so low that most level appropriate monsters can easily make the save. But their spell list also has a lot of combat buffs that can boost their already good combat even higher. Most of those spells tend to focus on the caster so knowing what you are facing is less important. An archer focused ranger casting gravity bow will get the benefit no matter what they are facing. Likewise, a paladin will be able to use heroic defiance in any combat he takes damage in.

[Tom Sampson]

Frankly, cure spells aren't really worth casting most of the time.

And on a sidenote, I must correct myself on the recommendation of casting Detect Thoughts as an Alchemist or Investigator. I'd overlooked the fact that it's one of those spells the Alchemist cannot actually use, since it affects an area and extracts only affect the drinker. I may as well mention that the Alchemist can utilize Alchemical Allocation with elixirs for large skill bonuses.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Cure spells may not be worth memorizing but using them when you know you are going to need the spell slots is a different thing. Casting cure spells when in downtime or in a safe location saves the cost of the wand and stretches it out further. Those charges on the wand of cure light wounds can add up.

It's all about utilizing your resources wisely.

[Sysryke]

Tom Sampson wrote:

You're welcome. And there's one more thing I missed: divine spellcasters do not have any requirement to sleep in order to recover their spells. So if you cast spells rampantly right before the appointed hour of meditation as a divine spellcaster, you still recover all your spells.

Actually, that's not entirely accurate. I've been reading the CRB magic rules exhaustively recently. I can't recall which section, but all casters have a rule that says any spells cast within the 8 hour window before they prep or otherwise regain their spell slots for the day count against their slots for the next adventuring day. The divines may not have to sleep, but they still need to have rested.

[Mysterious Stranger]

You are correct about spells cast within the previous 8 hours counting against the number of spells that can be prepared, but there is not requirement that a divine spell caster has to rest before preparing his spells. They could be doing other things besides resting during those 8 hours including being involved in combat. They do however have to have a relatively peaceful environment for the hour they are preparing spells.

[Sysryke]

Touche. You are correct. The key thing is the 8 hour spell free window. I made the foolish assumption that that needed to be a rest, though it most often would be.

[Tom Sampson]

I stand corrected. To be honest, this circumstance hasn't really come up before.

At any rate, a lot of a character's options will change depending on archetypes, prestige classes, feats, magic items, and more. The Alchemist is probably the most overt case of this, since his Alchemical Allocation and discoveries reward him for collecting a variety of potions and elixirs, but other characters have their own ways of benefiting from unusual pickups.

When it comes to converting spells into others spontaneously, there are a bunch of archetypes, and probably the Preferred Spell feat would be of interest. Clerics and Druids sometimes use it with their domain spells.