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So, I decided to fiddle around with making a vindicator ranger build, both a standard and free archetype variation. I started noticing that the 2 things the vindicator pushes for, recall knowledge and divine spellcasting, compete with each other, making the archetype almost fall apart if you don't choose one while ignoring the other. If I'm missing something, let me know but this is what I'm seeing so far:
The archetype starts us off with Vindicator's Mark and seems to also give us the option of picking up Domain Initiate at level 1. At the very least, Vindicator's Mark targets AC, so if you want to keep it functioning as you progress in levels, you will need to advance your spellcasting proficiency, likely with a wisdom based divine spellcasting dedication. This will require you to invest 3 of your 9 skill increases (typically) into religion. A good number of other vindicator feats are also focused on divine spellcasting in the form of more domain spells and Vindicator's Judgement.
The OTHER thing the archetype seems to focus on is recall knowledge against creatures. This is usually great as the Monster Hunter feats are already great on the ranger and these new feats make it better...except Monster Hunter doesn't really take off if you don't invest in nature, at least up to master. Your other option is to just invest lightly in arcana, occultism, nature and society but I really don't think we want to be spreading our starting trained skills so thin, plus it pushes us to need to invest into intelligence as well. So the better option is to just spend 2 more of our 9 skill increases being spent on nature (3 more if we want Legendary Monster Hunter).
So if we want to get the full offerings of the vindicator archetype and keep it relevant into late levels, it looks like we need to invest 6 skill increases into nature and religion leaving us 3 increases for probably 1, MAYBE 2 skills. Our other option is to split the archetype into 2 and choose a side.
So, am I missing something? Do we get automatic skill increases in religion or proficiency in divine spellcasting? Is there something somewhere that says the Monster Hunter feats become based on religion now? Or is this archetype really only effective if you either only focus on one half of its offerings or greatly limit your skill choices?
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So with the Remaster the Ranger already progresses its spellcasting, roughly at the same time as a spellchecking dedication, in addition the remaster made all spellcasting dcs progress at the same rate regardless of your tradition. So even if the Ranger didn't innately progress its spellcasting dc's you could just pick up a primal spellcasting dedication(although that would be counter intuitive with the whole religion flavor going on, but thankfully you don't have to worry about that since the Ranger warden spell dcs progress just fine)
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So with the Remaster the Ranger already progresses its spellcasting, roughly at the same time as a spellchecking dedication, in addition the remaster made all spellcasting dcs progress at the same rate regardless of your tradition. So even if the Ranger didn't innately progress its spellcasting dc's you could just pick up a primal spellcasting dedication(although that would be counter intuitive with the whole religion flavor going on, but thankfully you don't have to worry about that since the Ranger warden spell dcs progress just fine)
Oh, I see where I missed that now. The spellcasting proficiencies get bumped up at the features that class DC gets bumped up. Thank you. Now it's all coming together.
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So with the Remaster the Ranger already progresses its spellcasting, roughly at the same time as a spellchecking dedication, in addition the remaster made all spellcasting dcs progress at the same rate regardless of your tradition. So even if the Ranger didn't innately progress its spellcasting dc's you could just pick up a primal spellcasting dedication(although that would be counter intuitive with the whole religion flavor going on, but thankfully you don't have to worry about that since the Ranger warden spell dcs progress just fine)Oh, I see where I missed that now. The spellcasting proficiencies get bumped up at the features that class DC gets bumped up. Thank you. Now it's all coming together.
My Guide to Proficiency Bonuses gives you a visual comparison of that progression to that of other classes.
You'll see that Rangers with warden spells have the same progression as Magi.
(It's a Google doc so it might not display well in a browser. Google doc apps should work fine, though.)
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My Guide to Proficiency Bonuses gives you a visual comparison of that progression to that of other classes.
You'll see that Rangers with warden spells have the same progression as Magi.
(It's a Google doc so it might not display well in a browser. Google doc apps should work fine, though.)
Love your guides. I usually look at that particular one for a broad comparison of class proficiencies, not specifics. Never thought to reference it for ranger spell casting. Lol. I will try to keep that in mind. Thanks.
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I've bumped up on this a little too, but in a different way.
The Edge gives you a +1 spell attack / spell DC, but with divine spells only, and the dedication feat locks you out from picking up a multiclass spellcasting dedication in the early levels.
I mean yes, you can double down on Focus spells from the two sources - but warden spells typically are just self-buffs.
I feel like the dedication should also give one cantrip, and that basic and expert spellcasting should be other feat options.
So yeah, gives a little "works against itself" puzzle to solve.
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Others have corrected the OP on the Vindicator's spellcasting proficiency, but I also think it's worth noting that the class archetype isn't all that dependent on Recalling Knowledge either. You can take the feats for it, but AC is pretty consistent and spirit damage rarely hits resistance or immunity, so it's more something you can opt into for support.
Where I do think the archetype goes wrong, however, is as rainzax says: the edge you get is all about buffing your spellcasting modifier and DC, except most of the Ranger's focus spells use neither. You're meant to opt into domain spells and Vindicator's Judgment, but none of that really harmonizes particularly well with the class this archetype is working with. I think there are a lot of better ways the Vindicator could have integrated divine spellcasting into the Ranger, including by just giving them spell slots to cast divine spells, so I'm puzzled by the existing implementation.
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I wouldn't go so far as to say it "works against itself," but the vindicator is a little bit clunky in execution.
The Vindication Edge does seem push the character toward frequent use of Vindicator's Mark/Vindicator's Judgement, domain or warden spells, and/or taking Cleric Dedication (which, to be fair, can be done as early as 6th level if the character takes Domain Initiate with their 1st level ranger class feat). On the other hand, this does align with the concept of a "divinely anointed hunter."
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I feel like the dedication should also give one cantrip, and that basic and expert spellcasting should be other feat options.
So yeah, gives a little "works against itself" puzzle to solve.
Agreed. The skill stuff the dedication gives is interesting, but a cantrip slot (and/or a Vindicator specific focus cantrip) would actually enable the entire playstyle with a single feat. The more I think about the more head scratching this all seems.
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...like spell [shot] not having the master spellcasting feat
I was just building a spellshot and I found it's not that big of a deal, at least not for me. As long as you take Wizard Dedication, you should still be able to use Basic and Expert Wizard Spellcasting from the spellshot dedication as qualifiers for Master Wizard Spellcasting. Still definitely feels like an unnecessary feat tax but it doesn't feel as faulty as vindicator.
I really don't think page space is a good excuse to omit the master spellcasting feat. It would literally just be adding "; 18th: Master Wizard Spellcasting" under the additional feats section of the archetype.
The class is still using weapons at martial proficiency, and the use of the focus spell each fight increases that martial damage. The edge makes the focus spell more likely to land. I think that is the point, to have its own way of enabling melee damage on that hunted prey, not to continually cast spells.
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The class is still using weapons at martial proficiency, and the use of the focus spell each fight increases that martial damage. The edge makes the focus spell more likely to land. I think that is the point, to have its own way of enabling melee damage on that hunted prey, not to continually cast spells.
But then what is the precision edge for?
Ooof. Missed my window to edit that, lol. I'll flag it so don't can be fixed
The class is still using weapons at martial proficiency, and the use of the focus spell each fight increases that martial damage. The edge makes the focus spell more likely to land. I think that is the point, to have its own way of enabling melee damage on that hunted prey, not to continually cast spells.But then what is the precision edge for?
I would say the thing all rangers do. Just different approach to doing it.