| Dubious Scholar |
Right now, the class seems to be fighting itself. It has a martial chassis for proficiencies, but no damage bonus for its strikes. All the math seems to line up that spamming damage runes is better DPR right now in melee instead.
I'm wondering if the solution is to just not have direct burst damage on runes. Instead of having the fire rune explode for right-now damage, have it light them on fire. (Although this is probably nastier, given the passive fire weakness it gives? But that's fun too!). Have more runes that can be either ongoing buffs/debuffs or be invoked for a right-now support effect instead. The passive "move or be zapped" of the electric rune is more interesting to me than invoking for burst damage on it, etc.
And of course, give the class some kind of bonus to their damage output. I'm tempted to say they should get bonus damage on strikes based on the number of runes on whatever they're striking with. I'd love for this to count property/fundamental runes too, I'm just not sure how to scale the numbers cleanly.
| Squiggit |
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The current runesmith definitely has some balance and design issues that need fixing, but I'm kind of baffled by the idea that it would somehow be better if we stripped out so much of its toolset to just give it a damage bonus on strikes.
Like isn't one of the top complaints about the Inventor that it ends up being just a mostly generic martial? Why would we want to do the runesmith dirty like that too?
| Dubious Scholar |
Well, the idea I suppose is to keep having a bunch of spell like effects on runes, just not burst damage. Or at least, less of it? I dunno. I'm throwing it out partly for discussion because it seems to be at the core of the issue - the martial chassis and feats and such that assume a martial playstyle, but the numbers lean more like a pseudo-caster with how you do damage best and such.
It seems hard to balance the class so that both striking and runes are good ways to do damage I guess, and I feel it may be best to step back and pick one or the other. Either less direct burst damage from runes, or give up martial weapon proficiency and go all-in on runes as your damage source? I dunno.
| siegfriedliner |
Personally if I wanted to make the rune smith more martial, I would create resonance effects where a rune inscribed on your weapon interacts with a rune inscribed on the enemy for some sort of effect alongside invoking one of the runes.
Like for example if you had a wind rune on your weapon and the enemy had a fire rune whacking them would instead of the usual firey burst effect create a flaming vortex ring that does perhaps half damage but imbolised on a failed save and does some additional damage if they are still immobilised in the ring at the end of their next turn.
| Castilliano |
Personally if I wanted to make the rune smith more martial, I would create resonance effects where a rune inscribed on your weapon interacts with a rune inscribed on the enemy for some sort of effect alongside invoking one of the runes.
Like for example if you had a wind rune on your weapon and the enemy had a fire rune whacking them would instead of the usual firey burst effect create a flaming vortex ring that does perhaps half damage but imbolised on a failed save and does some additional damage if they are still immobilised in the ring at the end of their next turn.
That'd be pretty cool.
Right now the class feels more like a Runescriber, armored up so they can survive. The trope of a smith has more physicality than the class encourages beyond armor & shield.
| Trip.H |
I also pretty much agree that "pure damage" runes as an option is a design "mistake."
98% ish encounters are won by dealing damage. Every consideration in a combat encounter revolves around the 2 opposing forces dealing damage to one another. If something doesn't deal damage directly, the user of that spell / action thinks that in the moment that non-damage option will deal or prevent more "effective damage" in some other way, such as a turn 1 Haste being more total damage over time, etc.
Giving a non-spell, non-resource class (so there's no complication on resource dmg *efficiency*) like Runesmith outright damage runes basically means that Paizo has to be super duper perfect with the balancing numbers.
Everyone *wants* to mindlessly spam damage at max speed, but all this gosh darn movement, reactive strikes, and now I've got to heal else I'll die first, etc.
The less players need to engage with the considerations of the battlefield, the less engaging that play will be.
Most spells have non-damage considerations. Even Fireball has to deal with hitting foes vs allies. "Fireball geometry" has come up at multiple tables as to how to place an airburst to just barely avoid hitting your melee, etc. And that's one of the simplest spells.
If Runesmith has "pure damage" options that don't have weird contextual variance, good hecking luck getting the RS to actually use any of the other runes in combat.
It's hard enough to get squishy casters w/ good single actions to even move during their turns, because offense is king to a tyrannical degree. If standing there isn't going to send them dying, they'd rather unload everything they can. And that's expected behavior.
RS Trace doesn't even think about flanking.
If something fundamental does not change, such as auto-Tracing on every hit at baseline, Runesmith imo is going to be a super "unhealthy" class in its design.
| AnimatedPaper |
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Personally if I wanted to make the rune smith more martial, I would create resonance effects where a rune inscribed on your weapon interacts with a rune inscribed on the enemy for some sort of effect alongside invoking one of the runes.
Like for example if you had a wind rune on your weapon and the enemy had a fire rune whacking them would instead of the usual firey burst effect create a flaming vortex ring that does perhaps half damage but imbolised on a failed save and does some additional damage if they are still immobilised in the ring at the end of their next turn.
I think that might be a little too much for the class to get into, but I can see Tradition interaction feats stepping into this area. Instead of wind and fire, if you had a primal rune on your weapon and another on your target, a successful strike might hamper the movements of your target.
Another possible one might be if you have an occult rune on your weapon and you strike an occult rune bearing target with it, Rune Singer gets recharged.
If some of these resonance effects worked on strikes instead of invocations, that could incentivize keeping the passive up (on weapons and enemies at least), instead of triggering an invocation being the right choice in all situations.
| RobinHart |
Mmm, I'm going to add my two cents here - I can definitely see a good reason to avoid large burst runes as a thing you just do on your turn for runesmith... but rather than get rid of it completely, I think it might be more interesting to make it harder to deal the damage just outright without thought, and instead make it so there's a lot more focus on set-up into pay-out.
Like, what if you couldn't apply runes onto enemies directly, or to their equipment? What if instead, you had to apply runes to objects (small rune stones, slips of paper, metal plates, an arrow or sling bullet,) unoccupied spaces on the ground, or equipment (ally armor and shields and weapons) and then could have triggering reactions that you could set off?
Set up a rune on a spot on the ground within 30 feet of you. An ally forces the enemy to move onto it, you can use your reaction to trigger the rune, or set it to auto-trigger on the first creature of at least medium size to enter its space, but then not be able to prevent an ally setting it off by accident if they get shoved into it first. Set a rune onto a weapon set to go off on striking an enemy, and you can then shoot it or smack someone to auto apply and invoke, but with an action to prepare it first. And maybe if you attach a rune to a weapon attack, the hit could substitute the save.
Then you could have more martial melee and ranged feats that gave bonuses when using weapons that have runes on them, as well as stuff to move runes on objects / the ground around, cause their passive effects to apply to a larger emanation around them rather than just their own square... Set up traps of two or three runes that are linked together so that if an enemy touches one, they can be hit by all three at once, making your area denial REALLY scary to ignore once you start setting up enough of it...
| eoptap |
I treated them like one use runes having to be applied after use. I also followed the proficiency rules for the number of runes on an item. It worked out great to buff party members damage. It needs to be prepared for runes though for versatility. Also need to flesh out the rules for when putting it on creatures. I guess if you have to touch them it would be a strike, and if you whistle could be a ranged strike, or would it make sense for it to be a save.
The class works great other than not being a prepared caster.