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So I've now read through the whole of the necromancer, and I came out of it feeling... unsatisfied.
On the positive side, it's a very cleanly constructed class with a mechanical gimmick / gameplay style in the Thralls + Grave Spells that I think will give it a unique feel to play. It strikes me in some ways as very similar to the kineticist, where the neat tricks you pick up as class feats end up comprising a large portion of what you do in combat. Plus you have some spell slots to add utility and variety and extra punch when you need it. As an initial playtest it feels VERY solid and VERY functional. I think the design deserves a lot of kudos because Paizo was facing the unenviable challenge of creating a class that provides a "many minions" feel without bogging down gameplay.
However, as a necromancer this class just does not work for me at all. It feels like someone played an action RPG video game (Diablo?) and decided to use that as essentially their only inspiration. It commands "undead" in name and flavor only. It delivers so little of what I imagine when I think of necromancers. It feels like the designer was so focused on delivering smooth functionality in combat, that to avoid bogging down the pace of the game, they essentially made a necromancy-flavored kineticist.
Obviously, some of these vibes are impossible to translate into a tabletop class and have it work. But so much of this class abandons the traditional strengths and limitations of necromancy in favor of making it "play nice". From not maintaining even a single long duration minion, to not needing corpses for your core "dead raising" ability, it feels hollow.
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Again, I think the class as a whole is really well constructed and cool, but it feels like a weirdly video-gamey imagining of the necromancer.
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To be honest, the Necromancer *I* want to play is much more like the one in the playtest than the one described by the OT.
I don't want to necessarily be sinister, I have no desire to create undead minions longer than temporarily, and I really hate having to manage minions but the thrall mechanic for this Necromancer seems doable. Summon Undead is kind of a weak spell and I wouldn't even want to cast it if I was the best in the game at it.
Like if you want a permanent minion, just take the Undead Master archetype, since so many of your feats are focus spells (which you don't need tons of) then you have a lot of feat slots open for this sort of thing.
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... How much of the stuff you're describing do you want, OP?
Like skulking around sinisterly in graveyards, having to scrounge for corpses, abilities that only work on creatures that leave behind dead bodies... a lot of that sounds like it would be genuinely really miserable in play.
I agree there could be room for some long term minion support, but that could be as simple as offering up the Undead Master feats in-class without having to archetype.
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i don't necessarily agree with all of your post, but more interactions with undead that aren't your thralls would be nice. i'm thinking something along the lines of what Kineticist can do with Elementals like Extract Element and Command Elemental, nothing necessarily groundbreaking but more stuff that reinforces you as a proper necromancer
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as for permenant undead interactions, I would also throw in an undead familiar, like the elemental familiar the Kineticist gets.
The skulking around graveyards and stuff seems... like it would put a huge burden on the player to get even one minion/thrall.
As for the occult spell list... have you read that? Just looking through the cantrips and first level spells you have Void warp, grim tendrils, command, Enfeeble, SUMMON UNDEAD, spirit link, Bane, and Phantom Pain. You can't make a necromantic spell list with that?
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I can see your point and don't disagree with all of it. A few things I would like to see.
1. Remove the Secondary Caster requirement when using the Create Undead ritual. Yeah I know that not everyone uses rituals, but honestly having a necromancer being able to single-handedly use this ritual makes a lot of sense to me. Could be available at like 3rd level or later.
2. Have a part of the Dirge be that the caster can choose a spell whenever they gain access to a new spell rank that's not on the occult list that fits certain criteria (I'm imagining vitality or void based) to add to the dirge and count as being occult for the necromancer that knows them. I would limit them to a spell rank that the character is currently capable of casting. This lets each character fine tune their spells a bit to make sure they have access to spells they feel fit. That would only give 10 spells if gained at 1st level and I think that would be appropriate.
3. Add some feats that allow thralls to interact with undead, either positively or negatively. I think a fun concept would be a necromancer that uses their knowledge to battle undead and can use their thralls to drain the power from hostile undead.
Other than that I'm overall happy with how it's built even though it's not 100% what I was expecting.
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I don't contest that the version they ended up creating is much easier to balance and requires less overhead in play. But I do think they abandoned the traditional necromancer experience to get there. Obviously a lot of people actively LIKE this more straightforward, necromancy-themed more action RPG inspired version that doesn't have the overhead and considerations inherent to being a traditional necromancer. But there's already multiple classes in this game that involve juggling some resource restriction in combat in order to execute cool spells or things that are effectively spells: focus points, overflow, unstable, etc. While this particular iteration has some unique aspects that will be tactically fun to consider, it's also just very safe territory.
PossibleCabbage mentions taking the Undead Master archetype if you want a permanent undead minion. In my mind, this is such a basic aspect of being a necromancer that it should be, if not a core part of the class, at least an optional feat or chain.
... How much of the stuff you're describing do you want, OP?
Like skulking around sinisterly in graveyards, having to scrounge for corpses, abilities that only work on creatures that leave behind dead bodies... a lot of that sounds like it would be genuinely really miserable in play.
I agree there could be room for some long term minion support, but that could be as simple as offering up the Undead Master feats in-class without having to archetype.
Probably not all of it in the form I described, due to creating too much friction with playing with your fellow players at the table, but I feel the class should at least made some nods in this direction. I would love to see a necromancer that has some basic benefits with the Create Undead ritual (maybe it's a lot cheaper and easier to cast for them). Or one that gives some reason for you to care about visiting places where there are a lot of dead bodies. Or one where the player gets excited that they beat a particularly powerful enemy because they can upgrade the undead at their disposal in some fashion - even if that upgrade is small or temporary. Or one that allows you to command multiple minions at once, but restricts your options while doing so to not bog down gameplay.
I think a class that captured the classic vibe of necromancy, while still being playable and not disruptive, wasn't impossible.
The thing about Undead Master is that it's really a feat chain with no taxes, the dedication gets you the companion at level 2 (i.e. the first time you get to choose a feat), then you can take Mature at 4, Incredible at 8, etc.
The only thing you would be gaining from making it part of the class is that it doesn't lock you out of other archetypes.
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... How much of the stuff you're describing do you want, OP?
Like skulking around sinisterly in graveyards, having to scrounge for corpses, abilities that only work on creatures that leave behind dead bodies... a lot of that sounds like it would be genuinely really miserable in play.
People discussing the Exemplar: "I am banning this for main character syndrome, who do they think they are?"
People discussing the Necromancer: "Why can't I have three times as many tokens and actions as the rest of the party combined, and spend 80% of the roleplay time acting creepy and annoying?"
I don't want the extra actions, I definitely agree with you there but... I would like to spend SOME of my RP time being creepy.
The usual challenge of ttrpg players is being anything but!
I should also be able to RP my Necromancer as polite, practical, and charming if I want.
I should also be able to RP my Necromancer as polite, practical, and charming if I want.
My concept is very much Emmrich from Dragon Age, yeah.
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as for permenant undead interactions, I would also throw in an undead familiar, like the elemental familiar the Kineticist gets.
The skulking around graveyards and stuff seems... like it would put a huge burden on the player to get even one minion/thrall.
As for the occult spell list... have you read that? Just looking through the cantrips and first level spells you have Void warp, grim tendrils, command, Enfeeble, SUMMON UNDEAD, spirit link, Bane, and Phantom Pain. You can't make a necromantic spell list with that?
Undead familiars are already available in the undead book and I suspect that will be an option for live just a matter of no reason to test it right now as the stuff is already in game. I also sort of expect one of the grim fascinations to be an undead animal companion. Given their thrall deployment plus attack being one action it seems like an animal companion type pet would work pretty well with the necromancer power set.
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I understand Undead familiars already exist, but because familiars can have the ability "Familiar Focus" allowing them to give you back a focus point, something this class is SCREAMING for, especially at low level, I thought that would be something to test.
That said, You do bring up an EXCELLENT point, a lot will probably updated with the final release, and I wouldn't be surprised if you were right about that extra subclass.
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I should also be able to RP my Necromancer as polite, practical, and charming if I want.My concept is very much Emmrich from Dragon Age, yeah.
Emmerich from DA is absolutely my favorite pop culture Necromancer in recent memory, too. But Dorian from the previous one also fits the bill.
One thing I'll say is that aside from not having the divine list this lets me make exactly the kind necromancer I actually want to play at a table with other players in a typical heroic game. My concept for a necromancer I want to play a "wizard" who studies the boundaries of life and death in magic. Whose speciality in study is the Creation's Forge and The Void. As well as ofc things such as the river of souls. Someone who can speak to the dead (literal necromancy) and have their aide. My character would carry a magic lantern around that calls and houses friendly spirits that who wish to help my charactet and their party, and as such all of the thralls my character makes are spirits he calls to aide, and sometimes he houses the spirits, with the help to vital energies, in bodies made of flesh. The character would have had something like a neutral leaning on good alignment before the change, but their whole deal would be a good necromancer, if a little in the gray area. For this kind of Necromancer the class works beautifully and I am actually extremely happy with the direction EXCEPT that I rather use the divine list over the occult one
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It's clear the developers didn't exclusively base this necromancer on Diablo or video games from the number of The Locked Tomb references others have found.
It's clear the developers didn't exclusively base this necromancer on Diablo or video games from the number of The Locked Tomb references others have found.
Also, I've not played any Diablo games exist the free beta of 4 and the necromancer in that had a full animate army made directly and exclusively from corpses. So this is technically more game-ified than that
Also necromancers in Dragon Age don't raise the dead in combat, they just do death magic and call spirits. So... Y'know...
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I agree that there is some flavor missing. No-cost, impermanent thralls are decidedly unsatisfying if what you're after is someone who has the ability to desecrate corpses into tools for their own bidding. The fact that they can't move, don't use materials, and don't leave anything behind when defeated makes them feel hollow.
The mechanical expression in combat seems like a pretty great idea, though.
I have a feeling that these things can be fixed.
* When I say "no-cost" the cost I'm talking about is the narrative expense of being a body-botherer collecting cadavers by the sweat of your brow, and causing all sorts of problems in-world for doing so.
* "Impermanent" is a problem because it feels like a summoner, a magical effect, not an undead creation. The stories we tell about Necromancers requires a certain level of permanence and therefore consequence to their craft. No one cares if Jim is summoning and dismissing magical nothings in his house if no one is getting hurt. They care if bodies are going missing, or if someone sees a dissected corpse through the window.
* "Immobility" is a problem because Necromancers create animated corpses. If they're not moving, they're not really animated, they're decoration.
For the first two, I think it would be interesting if Necromancers stored their low-power creations (their thralls) inside their shadows (a common anime trope). They could start play a certain number stored, and have a reasonably high cap that grows with level. Then they could track them like ammo, and fill their pool with the corpses of their enemies as well as their fallen thralls. If you use up all your thralls, then flee, leaving them behind, you would have to restock and suddenly you have RP opportunities galore.
This would make them permanent, and somewhat of a cost because you have to spend time recollecting your materials after a fight, or stocking up later. You could also do things like track the level of creature you stocked up from and add minor bonuses to your thralls, or even add some kind of equipment or modifications to specific cadavers in your collection.
The book-keeping would be worth it for the flavor I think. It'd be really cool to have a list of the creatures in your arsenal.
As for immobility, I wonder if they could be attached to targets instead of spaces. "Appear, attack target, and if the target moves, follow them" isn't really that complicated and not that powerful for how weak they are. Maybe there's room to play around there.