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Let's say a player multiclasses into Investigator for Devise a Stratagem.
Let's say they're in a Deep Rock Galactic style one-shot, facing off against a bunch of bugs, with no great mysteries.
Devise a Stratagem is a free action if you're aware that creature could help answer the question at the heart of one of your active investigations.
Q1: Would you allow this player to get free action Devise a Stratagems because each bug is helping to answer the investigative question "How many bugs am I going to kill today?" or some other sham investigation?
Q2: If a sniper operative *can* get reliable free-action Devise a Stratagems, how busted is that?
Q3: If Devise a Stratagem was always going to be 1 action in such a game, how would you optimize around it?
Basically since this is going to be a fun birthday oneshot I made a Devise a Stratagem Sniper for a player to use, and I really like how much better a sniper feels with that ability. If you're making one shot a round, dumping bad rolls and switching targets is so juicy. It makes me wonder if we're going to see a lot of investigator multiclass snipers.
A1: Yes. Just because the Investigator is narratively tuned towards solving investigations doesn't mean they need to be locked out of significant combat benefits if the campaign doesn't accommodate that, in my opinion.
A2: I would probably want to try out the multiclass before making any kind of serious qualitative assessment, but it certainly looks helpful. The Operative's Aim + Strike combo is very action-intensive, and knowing that your shot's going to miss ahead of time means you can save yourself a lot of trouble and switch targets, or do something else entirely.
A3: As an Operative with a single-action DaS, I'd probably equip a gun with several shots in its magazine just so that I don't wind up with a four-action rotation of DaS, Aim, shoot, and reload. Assuming there are no other priorities, I'd start with DaS when I could, which would determine who to Aim for.
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Agree with pretty much all of Teridax's advice here.
Further, I would specify that starting any rotation with Devise A Stratagem - for free or otherwise - is probably your best bet. If you roll well enough to hit, then great, but if you don't then that's at least two actions you'd have wasted on Aiming and Striking, perhaps even three if it's a weapon you need to reload after each shot.
I would also recommend investing in a skill, tool or other technique you can use during combat in the event that DaS does deliver you advance notice of a dud attack roll. Useful tricks like demoralise or create a diversion could still help you contribute to the team, or alternatively, pack a backup weapon that doesn't require an attack roll such as explosives or an autofire weapon.
This falls most solidly under "reject the premise" for me- but I'll still answer assuming the premise as well, since that's what premises are for. Combining SF2 and PF2 stuff is a special case, even outside the premise of rarity not being a proxy for power- it's two systems with different balance assumptions. "Investigator multiclass on Operative in a bug-hunt oneshot" is probably the sort of thing I wouldn't be allowing cross-pollination for.
But! That's not the question, and hypotheticals can be stand-ins for more nuanced situations.
Q1: Tough one... The problem is that "one action" is maybe too steep of a cost, while "free action" is very cheap for what is effectively an at-will Sure Strike. (Just swap targets if you would miss.) Other possibilities include allowing a sham investigation but then requiring commitment to it (e.g. "How many bugs will I kill?", but losing track means that the bugs can't help answer that anymore because there's no total to add to), finding some compromise that strikes a balance between the two action-wise, and finding some compromise that limits which targets get free action rolls for. I would not allow an unconditional free-action study against all targets, though.
Q2: Yeah, that's busted! Free action, study a target to see if you'll hit, optionally aim (against that target or another), shoot with Fighter accuracy with possible bonus damage, and reload while moving.
Q3: Get the best damage (or high crit damage) weapon with multiple shots. Go crit-fishing with study, and follow up with aim.
So, how would I actually handle this based on the premise? I would give free-action study against any target the Operative has already aimed at that turn. That way, there's always some action being spent on setup (but generally not two), and switching off the studied target comes at the cost of not getting the Aim benefits. It also fits thematically- looking down the sniper barrel and determining if the shot will hit, then either taking the shot, or pivoting to a more opportune target without the benefit of careful aim.
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Not that I think this is super strong unless your GM is very generous with how often you get free action DaS, but one interesting interaction it does have is with the feat Line ‘Em Up. Because that uses the same attack roll for every target, if you have a line that includes A and B, and another line that includes A and C, if you DaS on B, get a natural 1, you can Line ‘Em Up on C instead and get a better result for A.
Combined with extra movement such as from Haste or the free movement given by Instant Reload, it’s very possible that a line that includes A and B allows you to DaS B, roll a natural 1, move and then Line ‘Em Up A instead, hitting B with your other result.
even outside the premise of rarity not being a proxy for power- it's two systems with different balance assumptions. "Investigator multiclass on Operative in a bug-hunt oneshot" is probably the sort of thing I wouldn't be allowing cross-pollination for.
Not disagreeing or anything, just want to point out that if we take a look at all classes in PF2 currently, Investigator is probably the one most likely to be brought over for its narrative function. Investigations in SF2 are even more common than in PF2, and we should probably get prepared for this exact discussion.
So, how would I actually handle this based on the premise? I would give free-action study against any target the Operative has already aimed at that turn. That way, there's always some action being spent on setup (but generally not two), and switching off the studied target comes at the cost of not getting the Aim benefits.
This is an *excellent* suggestion.
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The problem with making DaS a free action specifically against the target of an Operative's Aim is that many of the Operative's feats blend Aim and Strike into the same activity, e.g. Weakening Shot, Double Tap, Hampering Shot, and so on. I would go as far as to say that the Operative pushes the player quite heavily to pick at least one, if not several of these feats, because they turn your basic rotation of Aiming and Striking into something that can do a little extra. By the time you could actually use DaS, your main Strike would already have been said and done, and you'd already have committed to a target with Aim.
I'm permissive with what Pursue a Lead can be targeted on, but I wouldn't allow something as transparently BS as what you've phrased here. It's not hard to get around, though, with the right mindset.
What I would allow, after killing the first bug, is "are there more bugs are there, where are they, and are they a threat to our operations?" Or if you find evidence of some sort of bug, it's "what kind of creature made this evidence I found?"
Also note that you are not required to drop your case once you solve the answer (e.g. the final showdown with the BBEG after you've unmasked him), and can continue to receive the bonus against things relevant to answering it until you drop it for a new case.
I'm also permissive with allowing the pursue a lead bonuses to work with things like feint and demoralize because defeating enemies in combat (and potentially questioning them afterwards) is a method that can help you learn more about your mystery. I can even see some GMs allowing it on athletics checks for that reason, but probably not.
And yes, investigator MC is very strong on any ranged martial with these guidelines. The exemplar with the unfailing bow ikon can really benefit among newer content.
even outside the premise of rarity not being a proxy for power- it's two systems with different balance assumptions. "Investigator multiclass on Operative in a bug-hunt oneshot" is probably the sort of thing I wouldn't be allowing cross-pollination for.Not disagreeing or anything, just want to point out that if we take a look at all classes in PF2 currently, Investigator is probably the one most likely to be brought over for its narrative function. Investigations in SF2 are even more common than in PF2, and we should probably get prepared for this exact discussion.
Oh, definitely. The type of hypothetical described, bringing Investigator multiclass into a non-investigation one-shot on Operative? That is something I'd nix.
So, how would I actually handle this based on the premise? I would give free-action study against any target the Operative has already aimed at that turn. That way, there's always some action being spent on setup (but generally not two), and switching off the studied target comes at the cost of not getting the Aim benefits.This is an *excellent* suggestion.
Thanks!
The problem with making DaS a free action specifically against the target of an Operative's Aim is that many of the Operative's feats blend Aim and Strike into the same activity, e.g. Weakening Shot, Double Tap, Hampering Shot, and so on. I would go as far as to say that the Operative pushes the player quite heavily to pick at least one, if not several of these feats, because they turn your basic rotation of Aiming and Striking into something that can do a little extra. By the time you could actually use DaS, your main Strike would already have been said and done, and you'd already have committed to a target with Aim.
I think "free action DaS, aim at one of two targets based on the result, sniper rifle shot, reload and move" is too strong to have always available. Obviously, I think adding a free debuff on top of that is more of a problem. To me, this is a feature of my suggestion- if you want to use the more powerful Operative metastrikes, you're either forgoing your fortune effect or you're paying an appropriate action. Heck, for non-sniper weapons, checking if that third action would hit before deciding if you want to shoot or not is still a useful tool. (Or, it's a regular game where free action DaS is only available some of the time based on the ongoing investigations, so there's less need for a custom restriction like this.)
I think "free action DaS, aim at one of two targets based on the result, sniper rifle shot, reload and move" is too strong to have always available. Obviously, I think adding a free debuff on top of that is more of a problem. To me, this is a feature of my suggestion- if you want to use the more powerful Operative metastrikes, you're either forgoing your fortune effect or you're paying an appropriate action. Heck, for non-sniper weapons, checking if that third action would hit before deciding if you want to shoot or not is still a useful tool. (Or, it's a regular game where free action DaS is only available some of the time based on the ongoing investigations, so there's less need for a custom restriction like this.)
Free-action DaS is strong on literally any two-or-more-action activity that can benefit from it, and I don't think the right approach is to special-case nerfs to multiclass combos just to keep dancing around that. Any kind of at-will, free-action activity is going to be incredibly strong in a game that assumes players are going to output a certain amount of power through a limited number of actions, and you can already find examples of this in Pathfinder (the Magus benefits immensely from this too, and in my opinion would go immediately for an Investigator multiclass if the Psychic archetype weren't even more synergistic). If we're assuming we're keeping the Investigator archetype as-is, then I would rather not stymie a player looking for the synergy offered by that option, and if we're going to be house-ruling fixes, I'd just remove the free-action DaS from the multiclass archetype altogether.
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Combining SF2 and PF2 stuff is a special case, even outside the premise of rarity not being a proxy for power- it's two systems with different balance assumptions.
That's not exactly how we've been sold on the relationship, and the fundamental design of SF2 classes seems to somewhat point to the idea that it's not intended to only be very weird edge cases.
q1: I'd probably want to phrase the investigation more as "how can we resolve the threat this bug hive poses to X settlement". But yeah, I think it is an ability you should be generous and permissive with.
q2: Pretty damn busted. In situations with many targets it is a big boost to hit rate. In situations with one hard target it still improves action economy (saves reloads) and exploiting action economy for things like RK, Aid, hiding to gain flat-footed next turn, etc.
q3: In the pf2e game I play, the investigator used the basic "devise, shoot if good / change target or action choice if bad" tactic without free actions because he forgot them. It was still pretty effective. Operative could just kick it up a notch with better attacks.
Happened to be making an Investigator for an upcoming oneshot, and noticed that Automatic weapons are pretty great for Devise a Stratagem. Think you'll miss? Spray and pray instead and make THEM roll.