With unremarkable Dexterity, you will still be low on AC even with Mystic Armor. You will also be low on HP.
'Wading into melee combat' is likely too optimistic of a tactic. You would be able to handle melee combat, but only briefly and only if you are not the focus of attention of multiple enemies.
A better description may be 'opportunistically attacking weakened or isolated enemies' or 'standing ground in melee when an enemy attacks your position'.
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Feasible? No.
No, as in never, not using Witch as a base class.
There's simply too much weight given to being a full caster, and it's a cost you cannot overcome with stats, equipment, feats, and even spell buffs all added together. Even ditching Int, taking armor feats, a martial archetype, etc., one can make a mediocre melee PC at best, and that's only while one's buffs are active. This would not suffice in a normal campaign (much less a challenging one), though if playing easy mode, sure.
You could make a witch-themed melee PC, but you'd need an actual martial class for the chassis. Perhaps take the Witch archetype (or Trick Magic Item, Pet/Familiar, and other feats to give you the witch flair). With some reusable spells, like Cantrips & Focus spells, you could cast most every combat while also excelling at melee.
A Magus would be a decent, prepackaged hybrid, though they are more complicated than normal to run, but would be simple to witch-ify.
Also unsure what alternate rules you're using that allow an 18 Str (which one can only get when one's class bonus is in Str).
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At very low level you won't be that far off in terms of attack rolls, but you will have less HP than others wading into melee and with that stat distribution, a lack of DEX means you are going to need to pick up armor proficiency or you will get killed.
Past very low level, the unsolvable problem is that you have caster proficiencies. You simply can't keep up on attack rolls or defenses with a martial character, so you'll drop off in effectiveness and be at greater risk. There is no real fix for this on Witch.
If you want the character's focus to be melee first, then a martial class with Witch Dedication is going to work far better. That will give you less "Witch" stuff, but it also gives you the combat ability to make being in melee all the time work.
Also as mentioned - you can't start with 18 STR as a Witch without some kind of house rule. Your key ability is INT and that is the only ability score you can start with over 16.
This is at level 3. before then the build wont have martial weapons training. Have to go with a different cool weapon that utilizes finess since dex is more of a priority than str. You can level up str at each stat level.
Spiked chain is finess and reach.
Nudge fate is a +1 to hit
Bane is -1 AC
False life is an extra 10 hp
mystic armor is an extra AC and familiar of bad luck can be 1 more on top of that.
Runic weapon is more to hit and damage
Lifeboost is fast healing.
Laughing fit lets you shut down reactions so you can leave melee when you need to if theres a reactive striker.
I think this could put in some work in melee. It just wont be the same as a fighter or barbarian.
Spiked Chain Orc WitchWitch 3
N
Medium
Human
Dromaar
Humanoid
Perception +5; Low-Light Vision
Languages None selected
Skills Acrobatics +8, Arcana +8, Athletics +6, Deception +5, Intimidation +5, Lore: Games +8, Occultism +10, Stealth +8
Str +1, Dex +3, Con +2, Int +3, Wis +0, Cha +0
Items UnarmoredAC 18; Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +7
HP 32Speed 25 feet
Melee Spiked Chain +8 (Disarm, Finesse, Trip, Uncommon), Damage 1d8+1 S
Occult Prepared Spells DC 18, attack +8; 2nd Laughing Fit, False Vitality; 1st Bane, Runic Weapon, Mystic Armor; Cantrips Guidance, Haunting Hymn, Message, Shield, Telekinetic Projectile
Focus Spells (2 points) Nudge Fate
Phase Familiar
Life Boost
Additional Feats Basic Lesson, Dromaar, Lie to Me, Orc Weapon Familiarity, Steady Balance
Additional Specials Basic Lesson (Lesson of Life), Familiar, Familiar of Balanced Luck, Hex Spells (Phase Familiar), Patron (Spinner of Threads), Witch Spellcasting
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This is at level 3. before then the build wont have martial weapons training. Have to go with a different cool weapon that utilizes finess since dex is more of a priority than str. You can level up str at each stat level.
Spiked chain is finess and reach.
Nudge fate is a +1 to hit
Bane is -1 AC
False life is an extra 10 hp
mystic armor is an extra AC and familiar of bad luck can be 1 more on top of that.
Runic weapon is more to hit and damage
Lifeboost is fast healing.Laughing fit lets you shut down reactions so you can leave melee when you need to if theres a reactive striker.
I think this could put in some work in melee. It just wont be the same as a fighter or barbarian.
Spiked Chain Orc WitchWitch 3
N
Medium
Human
Dromaar
Humanoid
Perception +5; Low-Light Vision
Languages None selected
Skills Acrobatics +8, Arcana +8, Athletics +6, Deception +5, Intimidation +5, Lore: Games +8, Occultism +10, Stealth +8
Str +1, Dex +3, Con +2, Int +3, Wis +0, Cha +0
Items UnarmoredAC 18; Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +7
HP 32Speed 25 feet
Melee Spiked Chain +8 (Disarm, Finesse, Trip, Uncommon), Damage 1d8+1 S
Occult Prepared Spells DC 18, attack +8; 2nd Laughing Fit, False Vitality; 1st Bane, Runic Weapon, Mystic Armor; Cantrips Guidance, Haunting Hymn, Message, Shield, Telekinetic Projectile
Focus Spells (2 points) Nudge Fate
Phase Familiar
Life Boost
Additional Feats Basic Lesson, Dromaar, Lie to Me, Orc Weapon Familiarity, Steady Balance
Additional Specials Basic Lesson (Lesson of Life), Familiar, Familiar of Balanced Luck, Hex Spells (Phase Familiar), Patron (Spinner of Threads), Witch Spellcasting
Sorry misstyped but im sure everyone knew what i meant bane is -1 for enemy to hit.
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So I had a player using a "muscle witch," in the Premaster days in a game of The Slithering. It was wildly successful, though it may not be the exact sort of witch you're looking for. I don't have their build on hand, but they were an orc Curse witch who stayed just behind the champion swinging a meteor hammer and generally using a combination of Evil Eye, occult buffs, trips, and Cackles for action economy. It was amazingly devastating, but the champion on the team did also pick up Attack of Opportunity which made for nasty set 'em up, knock 'em down combos.
It seems that you're looking more for the brute force of damage dealing, which is not something I have experience with. I'm sure it could be done, but don't neglect the rest of your toolkit!
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Nudge fate is a +1 to hit
Bane is -1 AC
False life is an extra 10 hp
mystic armor is an extra AC and familiar of bad luck can be 1 more on top of that.
Runic weapon is more to hit and damage
Lifeboost is fast healing.
Suuuure, and your enemies will just wait the first three turns for you to cast all these spells.
Pathfinder2e gives you plenty of Gish options, but not with a caster base. Buff spells are great, but best used to strenghten your melee characters. The time for persistent divine might clerics is over.
A gish based on a caster chassis must be a caster first and foremost. The melee part is only nice to add damage when it's cheap, so basically when an enemy comes to you.
Overall, I think what the OP is envisioning is not viable. It's feasible but you'll play a weak character compared to the rest of the party.
@bluemagetim: If you go for a Dex-based build, then go for a ranged weapon. There's really no point to choose a Spiked Chain over a bow or gun.
I played a melee witch about 4 years ago, so with basically only CRB + APG content available. He was an Orc (hold-scarred, because HP were low) and it worked out about as well as you imagine. I wasn't terrible in melee combat, but calling him squishy would be an understatement. I went with 12 Dex and a Scalemail for AC 15 at level 1 (which is extremely low but you can't really get any higher without sacrificing Int or Strength). Grabbed Sentinel at level 2, which was an immense boost to my AC.
I was still mostly a caster, but I did go into melee and hit stuff with my greataxe semi-frequently. It works ok-ish at low levels when your cantrips don't outscale your weapon Strikes yet. Doing stuff like Strike + Chill Touch made for a decent offense without costing any spell slots, actually.
I will say that witch is not a great class for this since it's comparatively action starved for a caster. You probably want to command your familiar and make use of your hexes, which cost actions to cast and Sustain. Even with Cackle the action economy is quite tight. A Wizard or Sorcerer could potentially work better.
So yeah, if you get your expectations right and don't forget that you are a caster first and foremost, it can work. It won't every be amazing in melee but not entirely useless either. Just don't try to melee stuff that's like 2 or more levels above you. For this kind of encounter you should 100% be a caster.
The Witch has the worst base defenses you can have on a class, the worst weapon proficiencies you can have on a class, and a mental key attribute that isn't Wisdom. You can build the Witch towards melee, because Pathfinder is a game that excels at giving players options, but the class's base chassis is about as far removed from being viable in melee as can be.
Worth noting that you won't be able to start with a +4 in Strength, as your class's attribute boost will be to Int. You can, however, start out with +3 Strength on your orc, and I'd recommend taking the sentinel archetype so that you can start wearing medium armor as soon as possible. Your attack proficiency will be poor, your AC will eventually fall off, and your HP will still be insufficient to last very long in melee, though, so you are still unlikely to do very well in melee, and dumping Int in favor of Strength and other melee-focused stats will significantly harm your spell output too, so the end result might not be very strong.
If you're looking for the most viable melee build on a Witch, my recommendation would be to try an opportunistic, Dex-focused build. Start with +3 Dex alongside maxed-out Int, so your spells don't suffer, pick the Dragonblood heritage if your GM allows it, and then pick Scaly Hide as your ancestry feat to cap out on AC (I'd recommend this on any Witch too, not just a melee-focused one). Then, pick Witch's Armaments at 2nd level (Living Hair), and Sympathetic Strike at 4th level. If your GM doesn't allow you to pick a Dragonblood, you could sacrifice a Dex or Int boost for a +1 to Strength and pick a Versatile Human for Armor Proficiency at 1st level, picking Natural Ambition for Witch's Armaments at that level. Your melee combat capabilities wouldn't be great, but you'd be able to occasionally dip into melee for a Living Hair Strike that'd soften the enemy up against your hexes.
I tried this in the battlecry playtest!
I was hoping the Guardian + Commander would help out, but the Guardian being so below par for a PC was more of a hindrance, lol.
I went Human Starless Shadow Witch (no FA) for the early heavy armor via stacking general feats. Getting that bulwark trait actually did make the difference once or twice if I recall correctly.
In the building phase, I abandoned any notion of doing genuine Strikes, and did not pick the Witch's Armaments feats. Instead, I carried a whip and invested Athletics, and made sure to have a few attack spells.
I think I tripped twice across 2 playtests. Trip as a 3rd action was the main motivation, and it was very good. But.
Overall, Witch just cannot afford to be in melee danger. The HP gap is a way bigger deal than I thought it would be. I could "safely" take a single hit at L8. If I was not at full HP, then I was in danger of getting KOed with no party member being able to intervene, even a Guardian.
I had Gouging Claw via adapted Cantrip, and I don't think I cast it once.
Based on the experience, I'm comfortable saying that it's not really viable in a 1-10 AP setting. You just get blown up too quick. I tried to get as much harm sent toward my familiar as possible, but using familiars as an HP blocker has not worked across 3 GMs. Familiars are just so rarely the most reasonable target, especially when the Witch themself is so fragile. Despite that inability to pull Strikes, familiars simultaneously get clipped by AoEs and blown the hell up, even with the damage avoidance ability.
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I still can't help myself from wanting to try a Trip caster, so the idea has mitosed, with the Witch becoming a more conventional Witch that's already all themed out and on the shelf for an AP. Meanwhile, the Trip caster has moved to an HP 10 Summoner.
I'll have to check the numbers, but if a STR/Athletics PC can Trip significantly better than their Eidolon, then that may still involve the swole spellcaster knocking foes on their butt while the Eidolon can sling cantrips as their no-MAP fallback. Hopefully the Eidolon's Trip can get on or near the "max par," have not checked that.
Hopefully the Eidolon's Trip can get on or near the "max par," have not checked that.
Skill-wise, the Summoner is the top class for maxing one skill beyond what is imaginable to other Classes. Just grab One For All (that you can use on your Eidolon) and you get to unmatched levels of skills.
Hopefully the Eidolon's Trip can get on or near the "max par," have not checked that.Skill-wise, the Summoner is the top class for maxing one skill beyond what is imaginable to other Classes. Just grab One For All (that you can use on your Eidolon) and you get to unmatched levels of skills.
I don't think it'll be doable in the PC's budget to get that class dip for the feat, though Summoner's extra action being spent on Aid seem like it can be a great boon for the class in general (especially if Human, an ancestry/general feat for better Aid is a much easier sell). Especially as Diplomacy becomes more costly when you need to invest Athletics.
As far as I can tell from a quick read, the eidolon can't really/easily get an item bonus to things outside defenses / basic Strike runes.
I *does* look like Trip specifically is one of the rare possible loopholes that can get an item bonus. I think it's fully RaW that you can select the trip trait for your eidolon's basic unarmed attack, which would mean using the weapon's potency rune as an item bonus. I think that still lags by 1-2 compared to an invested PC, but it's a huge relief that some item bonus is possible. Sadly, looks like Grapple costs a feat to get as a weapon trait, thought it is an L1.
I do think the Trip/Grapple caster looks doable if it's the Eidolon doing the Athletics.
The caster themself is free to avoid investing STR, thought they still need to dedicate the skill proficiency.
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I tried this in the battlecry playtest!
I was hoping the Guardian + Commander would help out, but the Guardian being so below par for a PC was more of a hindrance, lol.
I went Human Starless Shadow Witch (no FA) for the early heavy armor via stacking general feats. Getting that bulwark trait actually did make the difference once or twice if I recall correctly.
In the building phase, I abandoned any notion of doing genuine Strikes, and did not pick the Witch's Armaments feats. Instead, I carried a whip and invested Athletics, and made sure to have a few attack spells.
I think I tripped twice across 2 playtests. Trip as a 3rd action was the main motivation, and it was very good. But.
Overall, Witch just cannot afford to be in melee danger. The HP gap is a way bigger deal than I thought it would be. I could "safely" take a single hit at L8. If I was not at full HP, then I was in danger of getting KOed with no party member being able to intervene, even a Guardian.
My experience with playing high level casters is that hp are always an issue -- I tend to exit combat either without a scratch, or unconscious.
My advice for a spellcasters that are going to be standing in melee range is to take some spells that make opponents unwilling to target you. I use a *lot* of reaction spells -- Blood Vendetta, Blinding Fury, Unexpected Transposition. Punish them for targetting you, and they will target someone else.
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As far as I can tell from a quick read, the eidolon can't really/easily get an item bonus to things outside defenses / basic Strike runes.
The Eidolon gets the same item bonuses than you.
I do think the Trip/Grapple caster looks doable if it's the Eidolon doing the Athletics.
The Summoner is a hybrid, not a caster. It's obviously rather good at being a martial.
For a melee "witch" that keeps full spell progression, I would instead recommend a bard with the Warrior muse that fights with a dancer's spear. Take the Witch Dedication (gain a familiar) and other multiclassed witch archetype feats to pick up witch feats using Basic Witchcraft and Advanced Witchcraft (like Cackle, Basic Lesson, and Greater Lesson).
The bard already has proficiency in light armor and martial weapons... The character won't be as good at combat as a martial class, but is a primary caster that can act as a secondary combatant with a reach weapon.
This is at level 3. before then the build wont have martial weapons training. Have to go with a different cool weapon that utilizes finess since dex is more of a priority than str. You can level up str at each stat level.
Spiked chain is finess and reach.
Nudge fate is a +1 to hit
Bane is -1 AC
False life is an extra 10 hp
mystic armor is an extra AC and familiar of bad luck can be 1 more on top of that.
Runic weapon is more to hit and damage
Lifeboost is fast healing.Laughing fit lets you shut down reactions so you can leave melee when you need to if theres a reactive striker.
I think this could put in some work in melee. It just wont be the same as a fighter or barbarian.
Spiked Chain Orc WitchWitch 3
N
Medium
Human
Dromaar
Humanoid
Perception +5; Low-Light Vision
Languages None selected
Skills Acrobatics +8, Arcana +8, Athletics +6, Deception +5, Intimidation +5, Lore: Games +8, Occultism +10, Stealth +8
Str +1, Dex +3, Con +2, Int +3, Wis +0, Cha +0
Items UnarmoredAC 18; Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +7
HP 32Speed 25 feet
Melee Spiked Chain +8 (Disarm, Finesse, Trip, Uncommon), Damage 1d8+1 S
Occult Prepared Spells DC 18, attack +8; 2nd Laughing Fit, False Vitality; 1st Bane, Runic Weapon, Mystic Armor; Cantrips Guidance, Haunting Hymn, Message, Shield, Telekinetic Projectile
Focus Spells (2 points) Nudge Fate
Phase Familiar
Life Boost
Additional Feats Basic Lesson, Dromaar, Lie to Me, Orc Weapon Familiarity, Steady Balance
Additional Specials Basic Lesson (Lesson of Life), Familiar, Familiar of Balanced Luck, Hex Spells (Phase Familiar), Patron (Spinner of Threads), Witch SpellcastingSorry misstyped but im sure everyone knew what i meant bane is -1 for enemy to hit.
Bane is terrible though. Bless is better unless you already have heroism or courageous anthem in the party, and even then bless as a pre-budf has more utility than bane ever will.
1. Bane needs a save. Bless just works.
2. While you'll always have multiple allies who could benefit from bless, you'll often fight singular opponents. Even if they fail their save (unlikely on a higher level enemy and babe has no success condition) you're still getting less value than blessing your whole party.
3. If your party is playing well, they should already be putting out status penalities to the enemy's attack rolls via Demoralize and whatnot.
Just to repeat the math I've done before:
a +-1, taken as a full 10% chance of difference,(assuming both reg and crit can be changed by the +-1) means that you need to have that +-1 in effect ~6.5 times before the odds of changing the outcome becomes a 50/50.
6 and under rolls, the odds are that no difference was made, and 7 and up, the odds are >50% that a roll outcome was changed. Every +1 matters, but a 2A buff spell needs to be way, waaaaay more impactful than that.
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Imo, the *best* use case for Bane is to draw agro and give the GM justification for hitting that creature. The spell lasts the whole fight, clearly emanates from someone, and has ~increasing danger if left alone.
This can mean using the familiar ability to give them an R1 spell, or using Familiar Master's Conduit ability to cast any spell from the familiar.
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I've softened a fair amount on my "melee STR Witch non viable" stance, mostly because I forgot how amazing the support Kineticist abilities are as a dedication. Doubly so if you are in an FA game. You can skip the luxury feats to get med armor + shield (might want to use magic for that one), a great scaling 1A + 1A heal p 10 min, and, of course, Timber Sentinel. All while saving your spells to use as you see fit.
That... really does cover each of your defensive bases. Gets you to AC cap, provides mitigation, and a chunky burst heal. Lesson of Life for sustain if you want it, or an Alchemist dedication for Soothing/Numbing/etc.
I think if you genuinely plan for it (and rule that the spell is saying the tree's allies) then a buff melee Witch can survive and become a Trip machine.
Still can never really Strike though. And you should *expect* to drop dying a few times, though a little fast healing will instantly get you conscious again.
The main saving grace of that idea is that once your defenses are up to par, damage is damage. Every HP the Witch takes is giving the rest of the party more time to dogpile the foes and rip them apart. And thanks to Kin's mitigation & healing being party-wide, taking the damage yourself is not required. A serious issue with Alchemist is that if I "burst" a bit and double buff up a party member, those buffs need to get used or the actions & vials were wasted.
I don't think it'll be doable in the PC's budget to get that class dip for the feat, though Summoner's extra action being spent on Aid seem like it can be a great boon for the class in general (especially if Human, an ancestry/general feat for better Aid is a much easier sell). Especially as Diplomacy becomes more costly when you need to invest Athletics.As far as I can tell from a quick read, the eidolon can't really/easily get an item bonus to things outside defenses / basic Strike runes.
"Your eidolon gains item bonuses to Perception and skills from any magical items that you have invested."
So, this is no problem.
I *does* look like Trip specifically is one of the rare possible loopholes that can get an item bonus. I think it's fully RaW that you can select the trip trait for your eidolon's basic unarmed attack, which would mean using the weapon's potency rune as an item bonus. I think that still lags by 1-2 compared to an invested PC, but it's a huge relief that some item bonus is possible. Sadly, looks like Grapple costs a feat to get as a weapon trait, thought it is an L1.
I do think the Trip/Grapple caster looks doable if it's the Eidolon doing the Athletics.
The caster themself is free to avoid investing STR, thought they still need to dedicate the skill proficiency.
Trip/Grab Eidolons are great. It's how the Summoner in my Ruby Phoenix game plays. The Summoner hangs back and uses spells/skills while the Eidolon runs in to mess with enemies. The Gunslinger PC really appreciates things being prone.
Weighty Impact used to make this even easier, though the Remaster nerfed it significantly (since that happened mid campaign my summoner player kept the old version).
But overall this build works really well since Athletics is a good skill in general with a wide variety of uses, and being able to trip something while also casting a spell from a safe distance is pretty effective.
Definitely one of the more effective Summoner builds I've seen, especially vs a spellcasting Eidolon (which was pretty subpar in my experience).
"Your eidolon gains item bonuses to Perception and skills from any magical items that you have invested."
So, this is no problem.
Ah dang, I missed that part, got hung up on the can't use/benefit from magic items area.
Though, now my main question mark is if Eidolons can hold + Activate non-magic (alchemical) items, as they are not lumped into the companions w/ their specific Activate ban. Even if Eidolons have no storage capability, holding a popping a single buff/healing elixir could help smooth out some of the pain points.
Weighty Impact used to make this even easier, though the Remaster nerfed it significantly (since that happened mid campaign my summoner player kept the old version).
Wow, I would hope that all tables use the old versions of the abilities until the class itself gets a remaster.
It really does not make sense to me to nerf a class like that when there is 0 sign of dev intention to do so. IMO the existing functionality should be "locked in" to the version they were actually written in, until the class is actually updated.
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Really surprised to hear that the Eidolon spellcasting feats don't seem appealing in practice.
My sketched PC took all of them, only selecting the Large size and Knockdown for Trip enhancement. The spells seem like an important way to keep the attention focused on the Eidolon, and after L12, a lot of the great feats seem to dry up. Swapping between which actor is casting and which is sustaining seems very potent. Due to SMN being a 5 spell p day caster, those feats seem higher value than normal.
Even just Understudy to get the Eidolon the Shield + ___ cantrip seems to be rather amazing value on paper.
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Though, now my main question mark is if Eidolons can hold + Activate non-magic (alchemical) items, as they are not lumped into the companions w/ their specific Activate ban. Even if Eidolons have no storage capability, holding a popping a single buff/healing elixir could help smooth out some of the pain points.
You and me both. The book is somewhat conflicting on what items Eidolons can use, since one part says "they can't use items that don't have the Eidolon trait" and another says "they can't use magic items that don't have the Eidolon trait". The total lack of SoM errata for years has left that an open question that also covers questions like: can Eidolons use tools?
Wow, I would hope that all tables use the old versions of the abilities until the class itself gets a remaster.It really does not make sense to me to nerf a class like that when there is 0 sign of dev intention to do so. IMO the existing functionality should be "locked in" to the version they were actually written in, until the class is actually updated.
Agreed, which is why I left it alone. Paizo doesn't always agree though, given how they handle updates in PFS.
Really surprised to hear that the Eidolon spellcasting feats don't seem appealing in practice.
My sketched PC took all of them, only selecting the Large size and Knockdown for Trip enhancement. The spells seem like an important way to keep the attention focused on the Eidolon, and after L12, a lot of the great feats seem to dry up. Swapping between which actor is casting and which is sustaining seems very potent. Due to SMN being a 5 spell p day caster, those feats seem higher value than normal.
There's two core problems for me:
1. Even with all the spellcasting feats, you've still got significantly fewer spells than a full caster and slower proficiency scaling (never getting Legendary). This is just not something you can excel at despite significant investment. The extra spells are also worth less as you level as they're lower level than your top ones and at high level scrolls and a staff will give you more casting anyway.2. It doesn't really work with Act Together, which is a lot of Summoner's flexibility. There are very few 1 action spells in the game, so realistically only one of you can be casting any kind of offense in a given round. A martial Eidolon can be attacking/tripping/grabbing/etc WHILE the Summoner is casting, giving you more offensive action economy.
Even just Understudy to get the Eidolon the Shield + ___ cantrip seems to be rather amazing value on paper.
Same number of actions as Reinforce Eidolon, which gives the same AC bonus and flat resistance, so I'm not sure having the Eidolon cast Shield is really that much better unless you're already casting Boost Eidolon, at which point you're investing half your actions. As for a cantrip... with longer range options like Needle Darts being easy to get now, does it matter if the Eidolon is casting vs the Summoner casting in most cases? It's generally not hard to be within 60' of a target anymore, and an Eidolon's caster stats are often worse than the Summoner's.
Feat wise, Summoner is a good one for archetypes as it doesn't have a ton of must take feats. Medic is REALLY good on it since you get more healing and you can Battle Medicine both yourself and your Eidolon. Give both you and your Eidolon Godless Healing (via Skilled Partner) and you have a lot of sustainable healing, and the Summoner can also Doctors Visitation allies while the Eidolon is in melee (even more so if the Eidolon can use healers tools since they'd also have Battle Medicine, but that is questionable).
If you already have Free Archetype? Then you might want the spellcasting ones just out of a lack of other stuff to pick at some levels, but I've never seen a Summoner built that way out perform one built with a martial focused Eidolon.
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The main point of the Eidolon spellcasting feats is to gain a few extra spells per day. But it's not even equivalent to a Dedication so unless you have another Dedication you absolutely need to invest in you'll certainly pass.
All this discussion about the Summoner makes me want to get mine back online, it's taking dust somewhere after the campaign I was playing it in stopped.
My main idea behind Eidolon casting is that while you can only commit one 2A chunk per turn for a spell cast, sustain is 1A. And the lower spell count of SMN already incentivizes more sustain-type spells.
If you start a turn in position that means you can Trip + Sustain --> Cast a Spell. And because the Eidolon has no penalty to its casting, only restricted slot ranks, it's still a great dispenser of short range buffs, non-damage hostile condition spells, etc. My sketched PC is set for Devotion Phantom, and the Occult list has enough options that 1 p rank is still incredibly appealing. 1A spells like Winning Streak or even just Sure Strike also should get a mention.
And because so much of an Eidolon's Strike damage is tied up inside Boost Eidolon, the Trip-happy approach is fine with Boost + Extend being an occasional thing due to less Strikes, at least until Weighty Impact / Knockdown comes online at L10.
Though it does look like I'm prioritizing size first over Magical Adept, which really delays the slot casing by a lot. Which... may mean that most of benefit is not there by the time it comes online (though the theming of it is still superb).
At least Cantrips at L2 are still great. Shield's got it own 10 min cooldown for blocks (independent of Protect Companion), and with Occult's longest range offensive cantrip being 60ft, that's actually pretty rough for a back row SMN to use.
What is the difference between feasible and unplayable?
I'm going to make this question its own thread.
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I'd not use the word "playable" as playability has more to do with the mechanics, if they are easy to apply, than with a build actual effectiveness.
I personally use the word viable to represent a build who brings enough to the table as to be considered.
What is the difference between feasible and unplayable?
I'm going to make this question its own thread.
I'd say both are about the mechanical power of the mentioned PC/build.
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Feasible is something that is going to be noticeably below par for a PC, but not so below the norm as to cause problems at a table. Something "feasible" can still have upsides and theming that may have one willingly choose it despite knowing the mechanical disadvantage.
Especially after the remaster on the whole nerfed it, it may be appropriate to say that the Alchemist class is "feasible."
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Unplayable is something so below par, that the PC, or the party as a whole, may struggle to win/survive encounters due to that lack of mechanical power.
If unplayable is used in a different context, it can also mean a build that has outright non-functional elements/tools. This includes those that technically function, but in practice are non-viable.
EX: Toxicologist is supposed to be able to poison their weapons mid-combat, and has a feature for it, but attempting to do so is so onerous and bad, that such a technique/approach is "unplayable."
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Both of these terms are a little fuzzy due to the variance in table game balance and difficulty setting.
This is difficult to talk about, as (out of my ass) I guess that most tables actually decrease the game's difficultly, both via non-rules "pulling punches" and via rules changes.
I personally have benefited a lot as an Alchemist in the power department due to 2/3 GMs allowing uncommon formulas to be treated as common across the board. So many little changes, and so many offer the PCs a mechanical advantage.