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While discussing these difference could provide every reader new balancing levers for future ideas, because you never seem to "admit" to the notion that Magus may have "too much" power already inside Spellstrike, and that realistic suggestions need to accommodate this uneven class design, it feels like continuing in this thread is less productive than rolling a boulder uphill.
Wait, have you actually played a Magus or is it all white-room speculation ? I'm not trying to diss you, I'm just geniunely interested because your experience seems to be really different from mine.
In a real game where people actually have to move and adapt to the flow, the magus is hardly the MVP. He's one of the worst DPS if we don't use focus spells, and around the middle of the road if we do use them. He flounders against very high AC bosses, which is a shame because those are the targets where his spellstrike would actually shine. He's very bad at improvising and like someone said, he suffers a lot whenever his limited actions are even more limited (slow, stun or even difficult terrain).
My magus used Imaginary Weapon so I could keep my slots for buffing, and that evened out the field somewhat. I wasn't the highest DPS but maze, mass slow, disparition or premonition allowed me to make a big impact on the battlefield.
But what about those magus who don't pilfer focus spells ? They have to blow their valued spell slots on attack spells, which means at the end of the day they're basically a fighter who deals less damage but can use a wand without multiclassing - woohoo.
So, in my opinion and after playing an Inexorable Iron on and off for 12 levels and a Twisted Tree throughout 20 levels of Agents of Edgewatch, the magus certainly doesn't have "too much" power. I felt much more powerful these last months playing a sorcerer, a witch, a ranger, a rogue or - currently - an animist.
...and that was before the sure strike nerf.
Magus sure can spike a lot when the situation aligns and it being a gamble class is fine.
It being able to take huge chunk out of solo bosses health or one shotting minions is great and all. But it takes a lot of party setup and luck (less so at early levels when a good roll with a spellstrike ignition, especially with Runic Weapon on, can one shot most things. which i guess is where the sentiment that Magus is OP comes from) to hit those high.
And that's fine on paper but what if you like the fantasy of magus but don't want to *only* gamble ? There is less support in the class for that, in part because recharging spellstrike can be a chore with some studies, and the whole feat lineup doesn't give you much outside of more spellstrike.
Which feels a bit lacking on the gish fantasy.
Now of course i'm not saying "what if you wanna play a magus who doesn't spellstrike" but "what if you want to do other stuff than spellstrike every other turn ? What are your options to still be a magic warrior ?"
You can use buffs, utility spells, yes. But there isn't much synergy there in some part.
Arcane Cascade is under explored, where it could be a whole other side to the magus' coin. As suggested before, feats relying on Arcane Cascade thematically (Riving Strike, Rend Defenses, Cascading Slice, Cascading Knockdown, Arcane Feint, Cascading Splash, etc) maybe some replacing certain "Spellstrike upgrade" feats like Devastating Spellstrike which imo isn't really that useful as is but would be a neat option as a strike option you can use anytime while in cascade, as a thing to do when dealing with groups or swarm even when spellstrike is on cooldown.
And yes, the issue of having so few spells to juggle between buffs etc and nova. I think bringing in Spell Combat again could help a bit with that, either base or as a feat. So even when using buffs and such you can do some action compression within a turn that only magus can pull off (like move, draw lightning, strike. or shield, mirror image, strike etc etc etc)
I'd like to mention: I think the Sure Strike nerf was necessary.
Painful, maybe, but looking at some comments in the dedicated thread mentionning how their setups of a familiar handing a supply of scroll to them to be a sure strike turret does show why it was necessary.
A painful bandaid rip, but hopefully this means that for some casters (in our case the magus) will get a bit of breathing room in the "power budget" to get more things going than spellstrike and all.
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I'd like to mention: I think the Sure Strike nerf was necessary.
Painful, maybe, but looking at some comments in the dedicated thread mentionning how their setups of a familiar handing a supply of scroll to them to be a sure strike turret does show why it was necessary.
A painful bandaid rip, but hopefully this means that for some casters (in our case the magus) will get a bit of breathing room in the "power budget" to get more things going than spellstrike and all.
I am pretty sure the save spells now being available for Spellstrike from the start is the Magus' compensation for the nerf of Sure Strike.
So I am not expecting anything more on this for some time.
It's a step in the right direction I think but I hope there will be more than that.
*maybe* a numerical bonus to the DC (as a penalty to saves on hit/crit, be it always Arcane Cascade's base damage or -1 and -3, requiring the cascade anyway) but otherwise hoping for action variety mostly.
Skill actions recharge following Magus Analysis template (either as feats or tied to hybrid studies, or both) some utility martial feats like knockdown but with a magic twist etc. and just more "in class" support for off turns and playstyles that do not spellstrike every round.
Maybe buffing/reworking some of the "when you spellstrike with a spellslot" feats to be more valuable (either partial effect on cantrips, or just changing some completely, same for some hybrid studies' feats or focus spell (inexorable iron *cough*))
Speaking of II, a while ago I thought of a replacement conflux spell for it: Strike with increased reach, scaling up. Another way to reach a target while limited in movement. Maybe scaling to something like a strike at 30 feet away, growing the weapon to enormous sizes or focusing the magic of arcane cascade to make a long blade of force or something. That'd give the subclass an option it tends to need to reach ennemies when it can't move, without just doing the same as another subclass.
Or give the choice of Thunderous Strike to be a cone or a line for easier aiming in melee. It making targets flat footed on a failed save would be nice too, keeping the prone on a crit fail.
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I for one am glad that Sure Strike got nerfed. Not because it was too powerful on a magus (it wasn't) but because it constrained his action economy even more.
Twisted Tree magus was the king of Sure Strike spamming. Between my staff, a ring of arcane power and wizard dedication, I had a dozen of Sure Strike ready every day, which means I could basically use it at will.
But even so, it was often cumbersome and less than ideal. Using Sure Strike + spellstrike means you use your three actions, so you don't move, you don't recharge and you don't do anything else. This means that if your target isn't next to you, or moved just even a little, your big-ass combo cannot be used. Reach kinda helped, but it still was really clunky. If you play in a group who's generous with hero points, it's actually much better since it doesn't mess up your action economy.
So yeah, I'm really glad we got rid of that - but I'm still waiting to see whether the compensation is adequate. I didn't use a magus since this nerf, so I don't know if save spells being available from the start are enough of a buff or not.
But IMO, the magus could have used a buff (and a big one) before the sure strike nerf, so even this doesn't cut it.
Also, this doesn't adress the NO FUN aspect of the magus. For most magus players I've spoken with, it gets old real fast.
Let's take a Starlit Span Magus since it's often touted as the best Magus - less move actions, more leeway to recharge. A typical round will be Strike - Recharge. Then Strike - Recharge. Then Strike - Recharge. Then Strike - Recharge.
No other class is as boring, with the same actions round after round after round.
I think it's in part due to spellstrike kind of...having not versatility.
Comparing to a "normal" archer character, they've got different shots.
Let's see a fighter:
Assisting Shot to grant an accuracy bonus to an ally.
Double/Triple shot for multiple shots at reduced MAP.
Debilitating Shot to inflict Slowed 1 on a hit.
Multishot stance if you lean into double/triple.
Incredible Aim to make a shot at higher accuracy
All that are options before level 10 (aside from multishot)
That's without archetypes.
Like, Eldritch Archer:
-3 action Eldritch Shot (so spellstrike)
But also:
Enchanting Shot : Mental damage with a stun on crit
Magical Ammunition : turn your arrows into magical ones of your choices (3 options when taking this feat, can be taken multiple times), tho only arrows of level 4 or lower, this still gives plenty of options at will.
Precious Ammo: Turn arrows into any precious material for the shot.
Homing Shot: Shoot an arrow that goes around cover and ignores concealment.
Incorporeal Shot: (once a day) fire through cover, concealment and armor (+4 to hit against ennemies wearing armor) and ignore shield bonus to AC and can't be blocked.
Lots of thing in the feat that give you different ways to shoot.
With spellstrike, unless you use a spell slots it'll "just" be some elemental damage. With the opening of save spells it can be a bit more, which is nice, but still somehow you have less variety at your disposal.
No joke, I think Eldritch Archer might be the best archetype for Starlit Span magus:
When you don't need to move you can just use Eldritch Shot to keep spellstrike loaded. When you need to move or use an action for anything else you can spellstrike, or if you want to use a special benefit from spellstrike feats.
You get a bunch of feats to support your playstyle AND the class fantasy of a magical archer.
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I am neither for or against the sure strike nerf. It does what it does and the thing is if all spells did half damage on a failure then sure, sure strike wouldn't be needed.
If all spells did half damage on a failed attack it'd be weird.
Not only it'd be a bit of "once everyone's super, no one will be" feel but also attack spells are balanced around being all or nothing aren't they ?
Plus it'd be a strange difference that on a miss your arrow doesn't deal damage, but a fire bolt still does. That'd also make magus...kind of worse by comparison ?
A full caster would almost always land some damage, while a magus would truly be all or nothing. Ironically that'd make it "worse" at landed spell attack (or rather at being consistent with them)
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I think it was Kalaam who said it but, in order to gain a little variety and help with the action economy, it would be nice to have either feats or features that tie recharging with another action, just like the gunslinger. It would also help flesh out the hybrid studies, which are pretty lackluster so far.
Features could be something like:
Aloof firmament: You can recall knowledge while recharging.
Inexorable Iron: You can intimidate while recharging.
Laughing Shadow: You can feint while recharging.
Sparkling Targe: You can shove while recharging.
Starlit Span: You can Seek while recharging.
Twisting Tree: You can trip while recharging.
Unfurling Brocade: You can disarm while recharging.
Due to MAP, shove/trip/disarm might be less desirable than intimidate/feint/recall knowledge but have a bigger impact if you want to use it.
And feats could be something like:
- You can step while recharging
- You gain temp HP while recharging
- You can give someone +1 AC while recharging
- You can draw an item while recharging
- You can battle medicine while recharging
...And so many more.
Yeah there is a lot of possible options, likely not all as it'd quickly bloat out the feats and it'd be nice to also have some not directly related to spellstriking.
But yeah, usually I suggestion something like 1 or 2 actions so it's always relevant:
AF: That one is a bit tricky because jumps already are a condition for your arcane cascade bonus, so i'm afraid making it recharge on top might just be too strong. Performance and Tumble Through maybe ?
II: I was thinking Trip or Shove (maybe with cascade giving you the ability to do it wiht 2 handed weapons aside/in place of temp hp) but intimidate would be nice too.
LS: Same, feint, dirty trick or tumbling through. Sneaking or hiding could also work.
ST: Shove makes sense, maybe reposition too ? Would need the same caveat as II to allow it with a shield.
SP: Seek is a good idea, I hadn't thought of it. Maybe Hiding or Create a Diversion too ?
TT: Trip and Disarm are good fit I think.
UB: Disarm fits very well with the weapon, reposition could as well but i'd say Disarm and Grapple.
Recall knowledge being a feat already I think i'd leave it there as an option for all magus as a level 1 feat.
A feat for some more niche actions like Battle Medicine is a great idea. A recharge and step would be nice, dunno if it'd have to be study locked or not, and at what level.
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I think I may have said this earlier, but I was gonna suggest to have spell strikes only count as 1 attack when using a saving throw spell as the main change. It doesn't make spells more accurate, but it would help magi who aren't aiming for burst damage.
And maybe a -1 (-2 on lvl 17) to your target's saving throws if you land the strike portion. This is in-line with the Vindicator, so it should be fine.
As I have other obligations to tend to today, I asked the internet to summarize this near-900 post thread for me in the hopes that I might be able to jump in later. This is what it kicked back:
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The Paizo forum thread titled Articulating my issues with the Magus spans multiple pages and delves into various critiques and discussions about the Magus class in Pathfinder Second Edition. Key points from the thread include:
Rigid Action Economy: Users express concerns that the Magus's reliance on Spellstrike, which typically requires two actions, combined with the need to enter Arcane Cascade and recharge Spellstrike, leads to a constrained and repetitive turn structure. This rigidity is seen as limiting the class's flexibility in combat.
Arcane Cascade's Limited Impact: Some participants note that Arcane Cascade offers minimal benefits relative to its action cost, making it less appealing during combat.
Subclass Constraints: The Magus's combat style is heavily influenced by its subclass, which dictates weapon and armor choices. This design is viewed as restrictive compared to other martial classes that gain weapon and armor proficiencies through feats, allowing for more personalized builds.
Starlit Span's Repetitiveness: Specific criticism is directed at the Starlit Span subclass for promoting a monotonous playstyle focused on repetitive Spellstrike and recharge cycles, reducing tactical variety.
Narrow Spell Usage: The class's design encourages the use of attack spells for Spellstrike, potentially at the expense of broader spell utility. This focus may lead to Magus characters being perceived as one-dimensional, concentrating primarily on burst damage rather than versatile spellcasting.
Interaction with New Spell Content: Discussions also touch on how new spells from supplements like "Rage of Elements" impact the Magus, with some users feeling that an increase in save-based spells over attack spells could diminish the class's effectiveness.
Focus Spell Synergies: There's debate over the effectiveness of certain focus spells, such as those from the Psychic dedication, which some argue can overshadow core Magus features, leading to questions about class balance and design intentions.
Reactive Strike Concerns: The interaction between Spellstrike and enemy reactions, particularly with the Reactive Strike feature, is highlighted as a potential vulnerability for melee-focused Magi, prompting discussions about the need for defensive options or adjustments.
Enhancing Flexibility: Participants propose various adjustments, such as modifying Arcane Cascade to be more impactful or easier to activate, revising Spellstrike to reduce action costs or recharge requirements, and expanding the range of effective spells to include more utility options.
Reevaluating Subclass Structures: Some suggest that allowing weapon and armor proficiencies to be determined by feats rather than subclasses could provide greater build diversity and player agency.
Overall, the thread reflects a community engaged in in-depth analysis of the Magus class, balancing critiques of its current design with constructive suggestions aimed at enhancing its versatility and playability.
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Does that seem like a fair summary of the discussions thus far?
As I have other obligations to tend to today, I asked the internet to summarize this near-900 post thread for me in the hopes that I might be able to jump in later. This is what it kicked back:
** spoiler omitted **...
I think the AI mostly cribbed the OP and reworded it because everything mentioned here was mentioned there, it's not off for a lot of the discussion, but there's def some stuff missing, like our discussion about DPR from a couple of pages ago I noticed because I was a part of it.
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Ew, AI.
Anyway, having spellstrike count as 1 attack to MAP when using save spells could open up some possibilities of other attack actions, and maybe even benefit more from arcane cascade with multiple hit per round sometimes. This could be nice
Btw magicsword, on lunatic dice youtube channel their video on Sure Strike's nerf has a link to a calculator that takes changes to hit into account, maybe we could ask the person who made it about to do that for 2 rolls with saving throws and all.
It's pretty well done, it shows how powerful Sure Strike actually is, especially with magus.
Like math wise a Spellstrike with Sure Strike, on an off guard target while you get a +1 from something from guidance, courageous anthem or anything is doubling your expected damage on average lol
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Spellstrike as one strike to MAP is too powerful and will never happen or should never happen.
Boring but powerful is exactly what the magus is. It hits hard, but lacks versatility.
It should never, ever return to the magus power level of PF1 which is what would happen if you could spellstrike and do much else.
Magus should either spellstrike or do something else, not both. That is your option as a magus.
Every single magus I've seen in play has been one of the most powerful damage dealers in the group, so not sure what Blue Frog is doing to end up middling or weak. Not even sure if Blue Frog is actually tracking his damage to see if he what he claims is true.
I've tracked magus damage and sure, they have some down combats, but overall they are a damage hammer. Their focus spells are boring, but effective.
This attempt to somehow show the magus is weak would require the devs to have zero experience with the class.
As far as sorcerers or other casters being more powerful, they are more powerful than everyone at the highest levels. Welcome to the high level game and high level spells. No other classes can match what high level spellcasters are doing.
Every magus I've played has been a top performer in the damage department. Not every combat or every round, but the majority of the time. They do have varied actions if you choose to take them, which I do. Magus who get locked into spellstriking every round don't use the full power of the magus. That's on them.
About all I'd like to see is Arcane Cascade designed better. It's all but pointless as it is. A tiny bit of extra damage and a waste of an action to use the majority of the time.
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You think Arcane Cascade would get use seeing as it's 1-3 damage, maybe if it was buffed to being...I don't know, 2 force damage per weapon damage die it might get used for 1 action, that be somewhere between 2-10 damage if you reach level 20 with mythic which matches the Exemplar Dedication but with force damage, if that doesn't seem interesting then the only way to fix Arcane Cascade is to quite literally allow the Magus to enter it for free, period.
Make it so you can't spellstrike unless your in arcane cascade.
Then it will see use.
A constructive idea might be to make arcane cascade a reaction that causes the magus to enter a stance. The trigger only works when casting a slotted spells and the stance lasts a minute.
Leave the current standard benefits and hybrid benefits as they are but at higher levels provide a boost of some kind to the slotted spell that triggered it.
Not sure what kind of boost but probably not direct math changers. Maybe tie this boost to the hybrid study. Benefits should meet needs of a higher level magus.
Make the element choice for strike damage based on any spell currently prepared by the magus instead of only based on the spell cast?
Limits arcane cascade to the number of slotted spells a magus has for the day.
Uses a reaction instead of actions freeing up magus action economy.
Gives arcane cascade a higher level benefit based on hybrid study.
At this point making it a free action when you cast a slotted spell works just as well.
Not fond of limiting its usage per day tho. This put even more strain on the very limited ressources of the class.
2 damage per weapon dice might also be too strong.
As it stands a magus with cascade up does the same damage per strike as a fighter, which I think is the intention behind that.
The fantasy/idea behind Magus is a character who, by merging martial skills and magic, can stand shoulder to shoulder with specialists like Fighter or Wizard in their own way.
Arcane Cascade exemplifies that, the added dammage fills the gap in total damage bonus that Fighter has with the basic martial chassis from legendary proficiency giving 3 more damage than master through greater weapon specialization.
By its sword skills alone a magus doesn't compete with that. but by combining their magic with their weapon, they are equal.
(Well not exactly because a fighter will be more accurate etc etc but you get the idea)
In a way that's also why I argued for cascade work as a penalty to saves during spellstrikes if it's active, it functions the same but relative to wizard's spell proficiency. But again only in very specific circumstances (details to be adjusted for balance etc etc)
That's something I really want to see pureful for personnal satisfaction to see those two aspects mirror each other and complete the concept but I'm fine if it doesn't work this way fully (if something like that were to happen I think it more likely to be a blanket -1 on a hit -2 or -3 on a crit)
Action economy tools and more actions unrelated to spellstrike are what's needed tho.
Make it so you can't spellstrike unless your in arcane cascade.
Then it will see use.
Arcane Cascade wasn't a thing on the PF1 magus. I want nothing to do with it having to be up to Spellstrike. That would make the class truly bad.
Maybe they could make Arcane Cascade come up as part of the recharge action. That would make it a little better. Fold it into that action would be fine.
No way should you have to have Arcane Cascade up to spellstrike and have to take a recharge action.
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There is a few ways to make enterring cascade less painful:
1- First time you enter cascade in a fight, after casting a spell, is a free action (kind of like the Raging Initiative thing of the barbarian). Could have a feat to be able to enter it as part of rolling initiative if you were repeating a spell as your exploration activity or something.
2-Make it a reaction to casting a slotted spell as a bonus to casting slotted spells.
3-Enterring it also recharges spellstrike. This make it pull double duty the first time you use it in combat if you open with spellstrike.
It'd also be good to have more uses for it overall, if it opened up recharge options (again, Skill Actions that recharge on a success if you are in the stance for example. or the option to end it as a free action to recharge spellstrike) it'd be great for the class' flow and turn to turn options.
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Every single magus I've seen in play has been one of the most powerful damage dealers in the group, so not sure what Blue Frog is doing to end up middling or weak. Not even sure if Blue Frog is actually tracking his damage to see if he what he claims is true.I've tracked magus damage and sure, they have some down combats, but overall they are a damage hammer. Their focus spells are boring, but effective.
(...)
Every magus I've played has been a top performer in the damage department. Not every combat or every round, but the majority of the time. They do have varied actions if you choose to take them, which I do. Magus who get locked into spellstriking every round don't use the full power of the magus. That's on them.
Well, I never said I was great at playing a magus (I'm more into full casters usually) but I don't think I did that bad either.
Middle of the pack is not awful. It's just that the best damage dealers in my games are things like the giant barbarian, double-slice fighter or gunslinger. And that's as should be since fighting is their only strong suit while theoretically I have spells and stuff. Heck, even precision ranger w/ animal companion or rogue with opportune backstab have great dps.
As for magus ? Well, nobody disputes the fact that he can spike his damage way better than any other class. But:
1) Spike damage isn't DPS
2) Spike damage is often overkill and doesn't contribute as much as you think
3) Spike damage relies on critting, which is something a fighter, gunslinger or even high level swashbuckler does better.
It also depends on which AP you're playing. I said I played Agents of Edgewatch, which has a lot of long exploration phases with little to no rest possible because the clock's ticking. When you chain a lot of fights, what little resource you have is stretched even thinner compared to the aforementioned fighter, barbarian, gunslinger and others.
I guess in an AP like Kingmaker where, apart from some dungeon crawling, there's one or two encounters a day, the magus might be more powerful.
It also depends on whether your DM makes your monster sit still or be more tactical. If everything is just a big conga line and fighters just wail at each other, the magus is probably more efficient. If he never has someone in his reach because people move a lot, strike from afar, skirmish or trip, he'll be much less useful.
Basically, fights with a magus go this way:
- Move to target, spellstrike. If I miss, that's a shame. If I hit, that's great. If I crit, that's awesome and everybody cheers. But now my round is over.
- Round 2: I'm far from another target because target 1 probably died in the meantime and I have to recharge. So round 2 will probably be move, recharge, hit like a wet noodle.
Round 3: Wohoo, spellstrike is ready - but wait, I've been tripped. I spend one action getting up (before getting Kip Up, that is, which kind of forces you into acrobatics), then one action moving to a target and wow, still no spellstrike.
Round 4: Now I've been slowed and opponent is huge, so I have to step into his reach. Slow + step means no spellstrike for me either.
Round 5: Oh wait, I got grappled. Now that's a DC5 flat check to not lose my spellstrike. Or I can try to escape and even if I do I now have MAP.
Round 6: Wow, I'm next to the boss ! I spellstrike and... wait. If I do that, I eat the boss's AOO + two AOOs from his cronies. Mmh. Let's say I don't spelstrike
Round 7 Hey, lucky me, I got an opponent next to me AND no attack of opportunity. Too bad he only has 30hp left, I guess this 100+ spellstrike will be really useful - if I hit.
And that's with reach, now imagine without reach.
...which is why a lot of the time I used round 2 to set up a big spell (Recharge + Mass Slow is an awesome round). That works pretty well but that hinges on having spell slots to use on something other than spellstriking.
Meanwhile, with the exact same setup:
- Round 1: Fighter moves and double strikes.
- Round 2: Fighter moves and double strikes.
- Round 3: Fighter stands up, moves and strikes
- Round 4: Fighter steps and strikes.
- Round 5: Fighter double strikes without problem or tries to escape.
- Round 6: Fighter intimidates and double strikes without problem.
- Round 7: Fighter sees if his first hit kills, if not uses a second attack then moves away.
And I'm not even counting fighter feats here.
So, sure, if you start your turn next to a boss AND the boss didn't focus you AND you have your spellstrike ready AND you have a spell slot available AND you won't eat too many AOOs AND the dice are in your favor, you'll get ooohs and aaaahs from the table. I did 372 damage on a certain dragon in endgame, and that certainly was satisfying.
I'm glad you found the magus very powerful - like I said, maybe I missed something and played badly - but my experience has been very finnicky. Not bad - middle of the pack is not bad - but finnicky
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But this isn't Pathfinder 1 anymoe we moved on to Pathfinder 2 with with 3 action points instead of 1 standard, 1 move and 1 swift. How can you say a class feature is not something you want to use? How did we get to the point in any design where we got a class feature so terrible people outright ignore it?
With everything that been said in this thread you would think that Paizo would announce a Remastered Secret of Magic book. Instead of releasing two new Hybrid Studies in the Tian Xia Character Guide. We don't need more subclasses what we need an actual use for the Class Features we are given.
Did Paizo make an objectively bad class because it is so locked into it's small rotation that breaking that mold of it's rotation makes it bad? Why, yes yes it does. In fact if you aren't Spellstriking you are literally wasting the entire reason to be a Magus is for the epic 2 action double action of Bonk + magic.
How do you fix the rotation? Answer if you absolutely don't fix the rotation, not one bit. You infact add to the rotation of the Magus but introducing similar to the Swashbuckler even if a Remaster is required a way, several ways in fact to recharge Spellstrike outside of burning 1 action or casting a focus spell. Then you would see versatility and diversity in the Magus.
Fort Arcane Cascade, you could change it to add bonuses to these secondary recharge methods, like +1 to Athletics to trip, shove or so forth. Perhaps a +1 to Recall Knowledge an enemy as part of a Recharge ation, maybe you can recharge and step and if you in Arcane Cascade you step twice!
What needs to happen is focusing on the short comings of Magus and expand upon it!
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Yeah the thing is that Magus is very easy to shut down and requires a lot of support to do its thing.
It's part of the teamwork that makes it cool, but it might sometime be steering too hard on that honestly.
Speaking of 1e, the unique thing of spell combat really could be reinterpreted in 2e as well for more than direct damage. If (with a feat) you could repurpose spellstrike to cast a spell and strike, in any order, for 2 action +recharge (but without extra MAP if the spell wasn't a harmful one) you could do so much. Cast utility or buffs while you fight, using spells like Warding Aggression to still move and make 2 attacks in a round (i assume spells requiring weapon attack would make the MAP not increase until both are resolved or just increase normally so you just compress the actions essentially)
Heck maybe even another feat (upgrading the Spell Combat one or not) that lets you spell combat/spellstrike with a combat manoeuver like shove, trip or disarm instead of a Strike.
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Yeah the thing is that Magus is very easy to shut down and requires a lot of support to do its thing.
It's part of the teamwork that makes it cool, but it might sometime be steering too hard on that honestly.
Totally agree on the magus needing the extra teamwork to really shine.
I had a player playing a laughing shadow magus in a group of ranged and/or spellcasting characters. He was beyond frustrated at never having a flanking buddy to get the most out if his abilities.
Eventually, we talked the party's switch-hitting trident ranger to step it up in melee more often and it made a world of difference. The magus went from seeming rather weak to feeling incredibly strong.
A party's strength should depend on teamwork, but an individual class' core identity and ability to carry its weight within the party on its own should not.
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Yeah pretty much. A magus with a solid frontliner companion who can help shutdown ennemies to set up the opportunities will decimate bosses thanks to them. Have a monk with flurry of manoeuvers and stand still and its over.
A full caster with cleansing spells to clear stuff like slow or enfeebled in case that comes up (or straight up cast Spell immunity on the magus against Slow if it can't have a scroll of it itself) is extra convenience.
But then it can lead to the frustration on either side:
-"I can only feel like i pull my weight when everyone else is supporting me"
or
-"Why do we have to constantly baby him so HE can shine and be the big moment guy"
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Exactly.
A lot of times, my friends delayed or adapted their moves so I could get flanking, since it's harder for a magus than for them. They're great friends so they didn't mind, but it still was pretty awkward ^^
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It's nice to be able to work as a team though, but it does make is more awkward when its a necessity for one of the characters to work.
And not just because they decided on a weird character concept like they want to play a very old fighter whose legs don't carry them as fast as they used to, so they chose to half their movespeed, so the rest of the team compensate with teamwork. It's just by virtue of the class starving for actions.
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Yeah the thing is that Magus is very easy to shut down and requires a lot of support to do its thing.
It's part of the teamwork that makes it cool, but it might sometime be steering too hard on that honestly.Speaking of 1e, the unique thing of spell combat really could be reinterpreted in 2e as well for more than direct damage. If (with a feat) you could repurpose spellstrike to cast a spell and strike, in any order, for 2 action +recharge (but without extra MAP if the spell wasn't a harmful one) you could do so much. Cast utility or buffs while you fight, using spells like Warding Aggression to still move and make 2 attacks in a round (i assume spells requiring weapon attack would make the MAP not increase until both are resolved or just increase normally so you just compress the actions essentially)
Heck maybe even another feat (upgrading the Spell Combat one or not) that lets you spell combat/spellstrike with a combat manoeuver like shove, trip or disarm instead of a Strike.
No, the magus isn't easy to shut down. Why do you state this like it's true? Magus needs about as much support as any martial melee class.
It's pure falsehoods like this that make it so Paizo can't action the little help the magus needs.
Exactly.
A lot of times, my friends delayed or adapted their moves so I could get flanking, since it's harder for a magus than for them. They're great
friends so they didn't mind, but it still was pretty awkward ^^
Shouldn't every party be cooperating to provide team members with advantages?
How would the level of cooperation be different for a party without a magus?| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
We did explain situations in how a magus struggles more than other martials would in the same situation.
Imagine a gunslinger who can only shoot in melee and has no way to recharge outside of the normal action expect with spending focus point on specific attacks that aren't always practical with the situation.
And that shooting their gun takes 2 actions.
That's magus.
Again, it isn't weak.
But it has issues and clunk that make it frustrating to play in a lot of situations.
People have expressed their own experience, that of their own players too.
You can't just say "nah they just sucked at playing it it's their fault"
Blue Frog went over the example of a situation where a fighter using double slice (or even power attack for that matter, that'd be the same) wouldn't be handicaped nearly as much as a magus. just read it and answer to that example at least please.
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It's pure falsehoods like this that make it so Paizo can't action the little help the magus needs.
Paizo directly helped the Magus in their latest round of errata; let's not get into histrionics.
No, the magus isn't easy to shut down. Why do you state this like it's true? Magus needs about as much support as any martial melee class.
If I lose an action as a melee martial class, I can still move and Strike on the same turn, and that Strike will consistently be able to apply my class's damage buff, such as the Fighter's accuracy, the Barbarian's Rage damage, the Rogue's sneak attack damage, and so on. If I lose an action as a full caster class, I can still cast most spells. If I lose an action as a melee Magus, I can't move and Spellstrike on the same turn, which in practice means I often can't Spellstrike on that turn. Because the Magus has a busy action economy as a result of being both a melee class (save for one subclass), and thus needing to spend actions repositioning often in combat, and a class whose key activity takes two actions to use (plus another action to recharge), losing actions affects them significantly more than practically any other class.
It doesn't stop there, however: as mentioned already, the Magus is uniquely vulnerable to all stat-specific debuffs, because in addition to enfeebled often weakening their melee Strikes, stupefied can also disrupt Spellstrike. The Magus is also MAD, depending on at least four attributes as a baseline and five if they choose to build Int for better spellcasting or access to the Psychic archetype: because at that point boosting one attribute comes at the cost of at least one other, a melee Magus opting into Int will have weaker defenses (and often, the attribute sacrificed is Wisdom, which can make the class more vulnerable to heavy crowd control later on).
So, to recap: the Magus is uniquely vulnerable to all harmful conditions, has heavy action costs and brittle turns that can make losing actions or changing tactics in response to the situation particularly painful, and is often pushed to weaken their defenses compared to most other classes. They are thus easier to shut down than most other classes, making them even more all-or-nothing. Just as haste can really multiply a Magus's effectiveness in combat, so can failing one's save against slow absolutely wreck the class.
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Every single magus I've seen in play has been one of the most powerful damage dealers in the group, so not sure what Blue Frog is doing to end up middling or weak. Not even sure if Blue Frog is actually tracking his damage to see if he what he claims is true.I've tracked magus damage and sure, they have some down combats, but overall they are a damage hammer. Their focus spells are boring, but effective.
(...)
Every magus I've played has been a top performer in the damage department. Not every combat or every round, but the majority of the time. They do have varied actions if you choose to take them, which I do. Magus who get locked into spellstriking every round don't use the full power of the magus. That's on them.
Well, I never said I was great at playing a magus (I'm more into full casters usually) but I don't think I did that bad either.
Middle of the pack is not awful. It's just that the best damage dealers in my games are things like the giant barbarian, double-slice fighter or gunslinger. And that's as should be since fighting is their only strong suit while theoretically I have spells and stuff. Heck, even precision ranger w/ animal companion or rogue with opportune backstab have great dps.
As for magus ? Well, nobody disputes the fact that he can spike his damage way better than any other class. But:
1) Spike damage isn't DPS
2) Spike damage is often overkill and doesn't contribute as much as you think
3) Spike damage relies on critting, which is something a fighter, gunslinger or even high level swashbuckler does better.It also depends on which AP you're playing. I said I played Agents of Edgewatch, which has a lot of long exploration phases with little to no rest possible because the clock's ticking. When you chain a lot of fights, what little resource you have is stretched even thinner compared to the aforementioned fighter, barbarian, gunslinger and others.
I guess in an AP like Kingmaker where, apart from some...
Getting tripped for any martial sucks. Standing up and striking once for far less damage than the magus's spellstrike is irrelevant. This is not how you play a magus, at least not how I play it.
One, you should not be spellstriking every round. Even without spellstrike, you are a master level martial with as good a hit chance as any other master level martial.
How should a fight with the magus go?
1. Depending on fight duration, you may prebuff with something like enlarge or a 4th level invis depending on level.
2. You do move in and spellstrike to open. Or if you have a beneficial Arcane Cascade ability, you may cast Shield, get in Arcane Cascade stance, and close. You may move to the same target as the fighter or barb if a boss or you may move to a fresh target if you think the other target will be dead before you can go.
3. You can even do something like cast an electric arc on two targets, then drop into Arcane Cascade stance if useful and set up for spellstrike hammer the next round letting the other martials take out the first target. Then hammer blow the next target.
You are a master level caster and a master level martial meaning you can mix casting and attacking as you wish.
4. If you're high enough level, you may even drop an AoE spell on a group rather than closing for spellstrike the first round. Smash with a fireball or chain lightning before even closing.
5. You can even take rogue archetype and pick up mobility to help you close the distance or you can blink charge in if high enough level and feel that would be better.
6. Majority of your spellstrikes do great deamage with cantrips. Spell slots can be saved for buffing or AOE hammer spells.
7. Consumables work fine for a magus like they do for any caster.
8. Magus should use their combat versatility. When the magus player gets locked in on spellstrike is when they start to lag. You have ranged capabilities most martials can't access.
9. Force Fang is your friend for switching targets and wanting to do some damage while recharging.
10. I get acrobatics on nearly every character, especially every martial. Kip Up is a must if you don't want to get rocked by trip. The action to stand up is the least of your worries and the AOOs from standing up are much more of a worry, especially if surrounded by AoO creatures.
Magus is one of the more versatile martials in the game due to having to access to spells and all that spellcasting versatility has to offer in terms of access to magic items and consumables.
Players that lock into spellstrike every round and somehow want to be able to to do this powerful spellstrike while doing other things that seem to have a problem with the class. You were not built to be able to spellstrike and do a bunch of other things because spellstrike was built to be very powerful.
If you want to do other things, you don't spellstrike. You do those other things. If you want to knock someone down, archetype into Mauler and pick up Slamdown. If you want some mobility when moving into battle, archetype into rogue to avoid the AOOs. More casting ability, pick up consumables or archetype into caster.
The majority of magus feats are simple. Force Fang early on for a focus spell that helps recharge and does a little damage. You don't even need Expansive Spellstrike any longer as they folded it into spellstrike.
There are many ways to build a magus. And magus still do Master martial melee damage even not spellstriking. I've avoided spellstriking in a round many times choosing to just swing.
Magus is simple, but does require some thought into how to best use its varied abilities such as when to use a spell slot for a big AoE hammer and save the spellstrike for the next turn. No one is forcing the magus to spellstrike every round. They certainly should not be able to spellstrike and do a knockdown or some other martial maneuver like a limited barbarian or fighter.
You don't get to unleash spells and be a great maneuver fighter. That's a ridiculous expectation.
It's strange thing to me to see people wanting more power for a class that as a player and DM has been one of the strongest in the game. Magus has the hardest hitting crits in the game. Sure it can be overkill, but the crits can also be an encounter destroyer if it comes early. Their damage has been the most versatile employing different cantrips to do different things like halt regeneration, trigger weaknesses, and hit from range. They are an incredibly versatile damage dealer. When you incorporate consumables, they grow even more varied.
Magus needs some rough edge smoothing for abilities like Arcane cascade. It doesn't need to do more things. It's a simple, efficient class you can build a lot of different ways with the existing rules.
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Spellstrike as one strike to MAP is too powerful and will never happen or should never happen.
Boring but powerful is exactly what the magus is. It hits hard, but lacks versatility.
It should never, ever return to the magus power level of PF1 which is what would happen if you could spellstrike and do much else.
Magus should either spellstrike or do something else, not both. That is your option as a magus.
Every single magus I've seen in play has been one of the most powerful damage dealers in the group, so not sure what Blue Frog is doing to end up middling or weak. Not even sure if Blue Frog is actually tracking his damage to see if he what he claims is true.
I've tracked magus damage and sure, they have some down combats, but overall they are a damage hammer. Their focus spells are boring, but effective.
This attempt to somehow show the magus is weak would require the devs to have zero experience with the class.
As far as sorcerers or other casters being more powerful, they are more powerful than everyone at the highest levels. Welcome to the high level game and high level spells. No other classes can match what high level spellcasters are doing.
Every magus I've played has been a top performer in the damage department. Not every combat or every round, but the majority of the time. They do have varied actions if you choose to take them, which I do. Magus who get locked into spellstriking every round don't use the full power of the magus. That's on them.
About all I'd like to see is Arcane Cascade designed better. It's all but pointless as it is. A tiny bit of extra damage and a waste of an action to use the majority of the time.
I agree with Arcane cascade needing a rework. Having to cast a spell to be able to enter the stance is way too cumbersome, and it feels like it's too little of an impact unless you use laughing shadow, targe, or maybe aloof firmament (though that last one is debatable)
that being said, I don't think Spell strikes as MAP 1 for saving throw spells is really a deal breaker. Monks and to an extent Rangers can already do two attacks (a first and a second) and a spell with their action compression, and with a similar spell save progression to boot. My proposed change would just allow a similar trick for a magus that isn't looking to use spell attack spells.
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Firelion, a lot of your points are valid but with asterisks.
Several options aren't easily usable by all subclasses of magus (like half of them don't easily allow having a hand taken by a consummable to benefit from cascade so you can't just keep a scroll in hand until its useful for example, or you just don't have a free hand anyway).
Sure multiclass can help but we're talking about the base class here.
Yes you have ranged options, if you keep your intelligence high enough, which isn't always the case.
"Great damage with cantrip" when it's been demonstrated several times that it's below most martial's using the same number of actions.
Your insistance on using your limited spell slots for buffs or stuff other than spellstrike is one of the issues highlighted in how the magus design is suffocating. At least now you can slot in AoE ranged stuff like fireball and chain lightning to use on either without using a feat which is honestly very cool.
But it does require a high intelligence still to not feel like a waste.
Again, what combat versatility ? A fighter can have like 4 different strikes depending on the situation. They can Sudden Charge to close a lot of distance and strike, they melee strike airborne targets with sudden leap, etc. Magus has no strike option other than spellstrike or a basic attack.
Yes it can use cantrips, and if they kept a high int it can make for a decent backup range option. But its still very specific.
You describe a best case scenario on a very specific build.
Tell me how a Inexorable Iron who tries to be somewhat sturdy and didn't sacrifice constitution and dex does all of this ?
How do they deal with being slowed ?
With very mobile ennemies ?
Do they *have* to only prepare buffs and utility spells and rely only on cantrip for offense ?
If so, then tell me how this isn't a problem in the class' design when so much of it is centered around spellstriking with spell slots.
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Getting tripped for any martial sucks. Standing up and striking once for far less damage than the magus's spellstrike is irrelevant. This is not how you play a magus, at least not how I play it.
One, you should not be spellstriking every round. Even without spellstrike, you are a master level martial with as good a hit chance as any other master level martial.
Well, thanks for telling me again how I suck at playing a magus - while giving tips that I already mentioned in my post (like taking Kip Up or casting big spells. You favor chain lightning, I'm more into heightened slow but that's personal preference) ^^
Basically, your argument boils down to "you shouldn't try to always spellstrike". Which is very true.
But then you go on saying you can still do very well with a Magus even when not spellstriking, and you even say Magus at your table are your top damage dealers.
Ok. Let's see about that.
Let's compare the two classes from SoM, without spellstriking: magus and arcane summoner. I don't think anyone has ever said that summoner was the best class in the game, was broken or OP. And yet.
- You say the magus can cast a big spell and move.
So can the summoner - and move, and hit.
He can use the exact same spell with the exact same bonus than you do, but he also gets to hit.
- You say the magus can prebuff.
So can the summoner; in fact, his eidolon might already be huge or have reach or fly, even without spell expenditure.
- You talk about consumables, archetyping into rogue...
So can the summoner - and he still gets an action more than you, every round. He hits as hard as you on a strike, casts the same spells that you do and yet has one action left to outsmart you or outdps you.
Oh, and he doesn’t get hit by AOOs either.
So, is the summoner better than the magus ? Nope, because the magus has spellstrike. That's his shtick.
TLDR: Every round you don't spellstrike is a round you're getting outdpsed by a summoner - and that's not an opinion, that's cold hard fact.
Firelion, a lot of your points are valid but with asterisks.
Several options aren't easily usable by all subclasses of magus (like half of them don't easily allow having a hand taken by a consummable to benefit from cascade so you can't just keep a scroll in hand until its useful for example, or you just don't have a free hand anyway).
Sure multiclass can help but we're talking about the base class here.Yes you have ranged options, if you keep your intelligence high enough, which isn't always the case.
"Great damage with cantrip" when it's been demonstrated several times that it's below most martial's using the same number of actions.
Your insistance on using your limited spell slots for buffs or stuff other than spellstrike is one of the issues highlighted in how the magus design is suffocating. At least now you can slot in AoE ranged stuff like fireball and chain lightning to use on either without using a feat which is honestly very cool.
But it does require a high intelligence still to not feel like a waste.Again, what combat versatility ? A fighter can have like 4 different strikes depending on the situation. They can Sudden Charge to close a lot of distance and strike, they melee strike airborne targets with sudden leap, etc. Magus has no strike option other than spellstrike or a basic attack.
Yes it can use cantrips, and if they kept a high int it can make for a decent backup range option. But its still very specific.You describe a best case scenario on a very specific build.
Tell me how a Inexorable Iron who tries to be somewhat sturdy and didn't sacrifice constitution and dex does all of this ?
How do they deal with being slowed ?
With very mobile ennemies ?
Do they *have* to only prepare buffs and utility spells and rely only on cantrip for offense ?If so, then tell me how this isn't a problem in the class' design when so much of it is centered around spellstriking with spell slots.
The difference is really in the hybrid study like your saying.
Inexorable Iron with a d12 weapon doesnt need to spellstrike to put up damage. Actually if using a cantrip might just be settling for less damage.So if we are comparing apples to apples then the other martial build being compared to magus must be using the same weapons. Otherwise we are introducing other variables like sparkling targe being sword and board vs a non sword and board martial(could be compared to another sword and board using martial though)
Gunslinger would only be comparable to starlit span magus neither of which want to be in melee.
I think the frustration is in finding that not every situation is conducive to spellstriking. if you come in with a routine in mind when real play requires tactics that change with the situation that can be frustrating. IMO that is an expectation problem not a class weakness.
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But as we explained, the thing is in the examples given you cannot get to your spellstrike after the first one and you don't have other ways to attack that fit into your class outside of casting a ranged cantrip that might be wildly uneffective if you don't invest heavily into int as your secondary stat.
Please read what we say.
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But as we explained, the thing is in the examples given you cannot get to your spellstrike after the first one and you don't have other ways to attack that fit into your class outside of casting a ranged cantrip that might be wildly uneffective if you don't invest heavily into int as your secondary stat.
Please read what we say.
I read the posts up to now.
Not enough information is given for that example from Bluefrog to know what could have been done differently.The magus actually can play those same turns with so much variety the fighter cannot even try to depending on the spell selection, how many slots are left, if there are focus points available, and the hybrid study chosen, feat selection etc..
Put a build up here and we can talk about possible actions a magus could have done in that same situation. Otherwise were all assuming different set ups.
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Does anyone else in this thread find it strange that people are stating that it is a valid choice to dump Intelligence when playing a melee Magus, but then saying in followup posts that the Magus "rotation" is boring or linear? You are basically cutting off your foot by making all of your ranged attacking and debuffing options useless and laser focusing on only Spellstriking, so of course you feel crippled!
Neither of those stances are mutually exclusive. Its like saying it would be weird for a heavy armor melee fighter to dump Dex because they are making their ranged weapon attacks worse. Probably that character never intended to ever use ranged weapons at all. If you dump Int as a magus but somehow expect to be decent as save-based spells thats on you.
If I have to be brutally honest, I think the people here expecting some changes made to the class to make it better with save-based spellstriking are IMO a little delusional (I can't think of a less aggresive term to use here, sorry if you feel attacked by it). The magus is the definitive spell attacker of the system. Just the fact that you use your martial proficiencies for spell attacking with spellstrike alone puts you way above casters, but the fact that you also benefit from potency runes and buffs to attack rolls in general literally skyrockets the magus into the stratosphere of spell attacking. The downside? Your spell DCs suck.
The class allows you to use save-based spells if you want, that's fine, and I wouldn't be opposed for a feat to impose a penalty to saves against your spellstrike's spell DC, but Paizo is neer going to make sae-based spellstriking on par with attack-based spellstriking because the class is meant to be played with attack-based spells for spellstriking.
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I think you agree with me and just haven't realised it lol. If a Magus dumps Intelligence, then they clearly never intended to cast save-based spells on enemies - but to then turn around and complain that their character isn't flexible and is clunky to play after they cut a huge chunk of their options away with their build decisions and self-imposed a "rotation" on themselves in combat doesn't make any sense.
After all, you don't hear players of heavy armour melee Fighters complaining about their lack of ranged attacking options - because they built that weakness into their character themselves and they knew it when they did it, or they built their character with some tools to make themselves more useful in those situations. Magus players need to have the same awareness.
As one of the people who both maintains that you're often better off not maxing out Int on a melee Magus, and complains that the Magus sometimes has limited options, here is my perspective:
So effectively, whereas a Fighter can freely opt into whichever fourth score they like, a Magus would need to incur large tradeoffs to max out their Int, only to still find themselves a fair bit behind in spellcasting. A Magus with max Int and the freedom to cast more spells would still be complaining, as their defenses would be sub-par and their spellcasting would often be mediocre at several breakpoints. The only exception to this is Starlit Span, the only subclass where you can properly depend on only three attributes for your baseline functionality, and thereby opt into Int without incurring those heavy tradeoffs. This is why I'm personally in favor of giving the Magus stuff like heavy armor proficiency or Int-based damage rolls through Arcane Cascade, because that would make them less MAD and let them opt into Int alongside whatever else they're building without undermining other core aspects of their build. It is in my opinion totally fine and even necessary for the Magus to be worse than a full caster at spellcasting, but a Magus investing heavily to be a worse spellcaster should probably not also need to tank their defenses on top, and that kind of tradeoff is one of the many reasons why Starlit Span is considered so much stronger than any of the class's melee hybrid studies.
Important to note as well is that discussions of the Magus and spellcasting often revolve around Int because it's their designated spellcasting attribute, but the fact of the matter is that you don't actually need much Int to make good use of arcane spells. The arcane list is chock-full of amazing spells that don't rely on your spellcasting attribute at all, like wall of stone, so even if having low to no Int reduces your options, it still leaves you with plenty. The reason the Magus still often feels lacking in options there isn't just because Magus players often dump Int, but also because the class is encouraged to fill their spell slots with Spellstrike spells for additional novas, rather than utility spells.
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And that's really the crux of the issue.
Yes in the example given by Blue Frog depending on what spells you have you might have options.
But again you have FOUR SPELLS A DAY.
Even if you have a good available spell to cast to make up for your main class gimmick being shut down by being slowed that turn or something. It will cost you a lot. And if you need to plan around that an pick a spell that:
1- Can be useful in that kind of situation
2- Doesn't rely on your int/spellcasting DC or attack roll
That's already lowering your oh so grand damage spike potential that so many go on about is so great that magus doesn't deserve any change to make it better in any way.
Again, yes, arcane list is cool and has lot of useful options and all.
But its limited by the class very low ressources.
Because so much of the class incentize spellstriking with your slots when possible, if you slot in 2 utility/control spells that don't rely on your int (so your int score is irrelevant) and 2 spellstrike spells. That means you get 2 novas a day.
And the rest of the time, even with cantrips, you will do less damage than other martials.
And have a gimped action economy.
And have no other interresting stike or martial options other than a normal basic strike.
It's really that simple.
The martial side of the magus is under developped.
The summoner's eidolon has more choices in possible strikes than the magus does.
Magus is MAD, either you have very low HP to get somewhat okay DC and spell attack roll for secondary attacks (which isn't bad to have mind you, I personnaly really like Cascading Ray for that reason, it's basically an agile ranged attack after spellstrike) and you can't expect all magus to just have the same stats and max out int.
Why ? Because then you can't have variety. What if I want to play a a noble magus with some charisma, who ends up the face of the party in a group without a charisma caster ?
What do I sacrifice ? Dex, Int, Wis, Con ?
Wisdom is needed both for saves and for perception in social situations, which for that character is needed.
Dex and Con are important defensively. Could drop the dex and take archetypes for heavy armor but that's looking for out of class solutions.
Int ? Losing on spellcasting options which does make you less effective in combat.
Meanwhile a fighter, ranger or whatever can fairly easily get some charisma up from the getgo.
Also about the example above, when someone said "well the magus could have cast a spell at range, an option a fighter wouldn't have"
Sure, but the fighter can quickswap their sword to a bow for one action and then shoot two arrows or use a two action strike with their bow. If, like the magus who max out in as a secondary stat, that fighter maxes out dex as a secondary stat.
And that will cost them 1 arrow whereas the magus might spend a spell slot for less results.
About being "delusional" about getting something better for saves, I don't think it is delusional to brainstorm and test out ideas for it.
Posting it around it garnered a lot of positive feedback and interrest of people willing to experiment with it.
So its definitely worth considering.
If it can make the class less MAD (WHEN USING ITS MAIN CLASS FEATURE ! I am not suggesting that all spells cast with the magus benefit from that kind of bonus, only the ones used in a spellstrike and ONLY against the primary target IF you landed the strike portion at best, with the restriction of needed to enter the stance. At worst lock it behind a crit, with just a -1 on hit)
That way magi who do not invest heavily in int (for whatever reason) won't be stuck with only a handful of attack spells for their main class feature.
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And that's really the crux of the issue.
Yes in the example given by Blue Frog depending on what spells you have you might have options.
But again you have FOUR SPELLS A DAY.Even if you have a good available spell to cast to make up for your main class gimmick being shut down by being slowed that turn or something. It will cost you a lot. And if you need to plan around that an pick a spell that:
1- Can be useful in that kind of situation
2- Doesn't rely on your int/spellcasting DC or attack rollThat's already lowering your oh so grand damage spike potential that so many go on about is so great that magus doesn't deserve any change to make it better in any way.
Again, yes, arcane list is cool and has lot of useful options and all.
But its limited by the class very low ressources.
Because so much of the class incentize spellstriking with your slots when possible, if you slot in 2 utility/control spells that don't rely on your int (so your int score is irrelevant) and 2 spellstrike spells. That means you get 2 novas a day.
And the rest of the time, even with cantrips, you will do less damage than other martials.
And have a gimped action economy.
And have no other interresting stike or martial options other than a normal basic strike.It's really that simple.
The martial side of the magus is under developped.
The summoner's eidolon has more choices in possible strikes than the magus does.Magus is MAD, either you have very low HP to get somewhat okay DC and spell attack roll for secondary attacks (which isn't bad to have mind you, I personnaly really like Cascading Ray for that reason, it's basically an agile ranged attack after spellstrike) and you can't expect all magus to just have the same stats and max out int.
Why ? Because then you can't have variety. What if I want to play a a noble magus with some charisma, who ends up the face of the party in a group without a charisma caster ?
What do I sacrifice ? Dex, Int, Wis, Con ?
Wisdom is needed both for saves and for perception...
You have four top level spells a day.
2 up to 4th level limited slots.
And access to consumables, which become very cheap as you become higher level. As well as access to things like wands and staves.
You have the best use of attack roll spells in the game.
You crit like a truck when you crit. Your average damage per hit is great.
You have very good focus spells that are versatile and useful like Runic Impression and Force Fang.
You can access archetypes.
Scroll Striker is even more useful with Expansive Spellstrike built in so you can use more consumable AOE effects.
As far as being MAD, not really. You don't need a lot of strength if you go Dex and you don't need a lot of Dex if you go Strength and pick up a feat to get Heavy Armor.
You want all this stuff as a base part of the class that can be acquired for very low resource expenditure.
Str based magus can focus on: Str, Con, Int, Wis.
Dex based magus can focus on: Dex, Con, Int, Wis.
Majority of your damage comes from spellstrike spells, your weapon, and specialization.
So I don't know why you're trying to make this claim of MAD. You're not supposed to be a boss caster, but a Master caster at high level with even moderate intelligence can hit mooks hard for AoE damage and use Spellstrike for boss striking.
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Well, I do think it's nice to have INT on your magus, even if it means you're a bit weaker on other stats.
I went STR 18 DEX 12 CON 12 INT 16 WIS 10 CHA 10 with my magus, taking heavy armor proficiency at lvl 3 to get bulwark, and raising STR/CON/INT/WIS at lvl 5 and 10, DEX/CON/INT/WIS at lvl 15, DEX/CON/WIS/CHA at lvl 20.
It's a feat investment, though, and I had to take fleet as well (+ a wand of 2nd level Tailwind), because speed matters when you have few actions.
But it's worth it, because it gives you more options. Compared to a full caster, you're:
- 1pt behind at lvl 1-4
- Same DC at lvl 5-6
- 2 pt behind at lvl 7-8
- Same DC at lvl 9
- 1 pt behind at lvl 11-14
- 2 pt behind at lvl 15-16
- Same DC at lvl 17-18.
Then legendary spellcaster + apex item kicks in for full spellcasters and you'll be 3 whole points behind, but that's at the last two levels.
So basically, you're pretty competitive if you invest in INT and this makes you way more flexible.
However, that's when you CAN use your spell slots for something else than spellstriking, so only if you took a dedication that gives you a good focus strike - or if you use your whole round to spellstrike + Force Fang. And we're back to square 1, with the fact that using your focus points to complement your spellstrike makes hybrid studies next to useless, and that 99% of your turns you simply CANNOT use three actions to strike.
Inexorable Iron with a d12 weapon doesnt need to spellstrike to put up damage. Actually if using a cantrip might just be settling for less damage.
So if we are comparing apples to apples then the other martial build being compared to magus must be using the same weapons.
Inexorable Iron with a d12 weapon not spellstriking is behind fighter with a d12 weapon (who has +2 accuracy and more damage, and has feats to help even more). He's behind the barbarian with a d12 weapon (who has way more damage). He's behind the precision ranger using a d12 weapon (who has more damage and probably an animal companion). He's behind the monk flurrying a d10 attack or the rogue sneak attacking.
So, yeah, Inexorable Iron with a d12 weapon needs spellstrike to put up damage, else he's just a worse version of a martial class.
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You crit like a truck when you crit. Your average damage per hit is great.
Like it has been said countless times, the problem is not the damage you do when you actually have a full round next to an opponent with your spellstrike charged. This is just the best case scenario for a magus.
- You can (could) Sure Strike + Spellstrike a big spell.
- You can Spellstrike a cantrip + Force Fang
- You can even go nova with Force Fang + Spellstriking a spell.
All of those are great and, if you hit, will make you very happy.
And you'll forget all those times you didn't have the reach, or had only two actions left, or your spellstrike wasn't recharged, or the mob had only 20hp left, or you were enfeebled and missed, or you got hit and grabbed by an AOO. And that's not something any consumable can help you with.
People see the big crits and think "wow, Magus is OP".
Then they run the real numbers and realize they're middle of the pack, like I said since the beginning.
And, again, "middle of the pack" while having a lot of aces up your sleeve isn't a bad thing. If the magus was able to consistently outDPS a fighter or a barbarian, then what would be the point of playing those classes apart from RP reasons ?
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Thinking Magus is fine just because its crits are putting up big numbers is missing the bigger picture, honestly.
What I really want isn't for it to do more damage (though you can argue that my suggestion of a penalty to saves during spellstrike does do that, the intent is mainly to give flexibility to characters who don't invest in int for any reason and give breathing room in your stat distribution. A lot of magus will have +2 int instead of +3 for example, so they can have more HP or better perception for initiative or whatever.)
What I ask is options in your routine and action economy.
If I can't spellstrike that turn, I want more than just a cantrip that's worse than what a caster would use or a simple strike that has no interresting use compared to any other martial.
I'm not asking for a magus' normal strike to compare to a barbarian or rogue.
I'm asking for flexibility, dynamism in the class' action economy instead of constantly choking for both actions and spells.
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People see the big crits and think "wow, Magus is OP".
Then they run the real numbers and realize they're middle of the pack, like I said since the beginning.
It's a sobering thought to me that despite Pathfinder being a game that requires good system awareness and encourages meta-knowledge of tabletop games, we're still stuck as a playerbase with the same mentality problem as D&D 5e's community with their version of the Rogue. Players see one big number and automatically assume the class is the biggest damage-dealer around, even when both the white-room math and the practical results show otherwise.
And access to consumables, which become very cheap as you become higher level. As well as access to things like wands and staves.
Literally anyone with a spellcasting dedication feat can use spellcasting magic items and consumables. Having it baked-in is certainly a plus, but if you're relying on your Magus to supply your team's utility through items, you're not going to get all that much extra mileage compared to a full martial class. The Magus's top-rank slots may perhaps be used for utility (if you're not using them to go nova), but their studious spells are far more limited, and are themselves generally oriented more towards combat.
Str based magus can focus on: Str, Con, Int, Wis.
And, in the process, have absolutely terrible Ref saves. This is why you should probably not dump Dex even on a Strength Magus.
Dex based magus can focus on: Dex, Con, Int, Wis.
Unless you're going Starlit Span, this is going to lead to a Magus with even more all-or-nothing turns, as their lack of Strength and reliance on finesse weapons means their baseline Strikes will be quite mediocre. In the case of hybrid studies like Twisting Tree, this is also simply not a stat distribution you can afford to take without sabotaging yourself completely. This is why you should probably not dump Strength even on a melee Dex Magus.