Why would anyone use Versatile Vials in their base forms?

[Snuggles: Destroyer of Worlds]

I'm trying to wrap my head around the Alchemist class. In particular, what the value/use for throwing unmodified Versatile Vials (VV) is?

By all accounts, they are weaker and have fewer benefits than the consumable item bombs you can create out of them. And even with the Bomber research field, far more limited than the diverse assortment of bombs you can buy formula for. With the Quick Bomber feat you can even draw, Quick Alchemy, and Strike with the VV in one action. So action economy doesn't seem like an issue here either, in case it Quick Alchemy added to the draw-strike two action cost.

Even as a Chirurgeon, it's FAR better to Quick Alchemy your VVs into Elixirs of Life than use them as plain VVs to heal. Not to mention as such, they get the Coagulant property, which limits their use in combat to 1 per person.

The only possible uses I can find for their base damage is either avoid needing to buy formulae (but then... why be an alchemist?). Or to have a quick poison damage type to add to a Poisoner that doesn't get a Fortitude save. Like the Rogue's poison abilities.

So again... why would you ever use VV base damage vs Quick Alchemy to turn it into a better item in almost all cases? I've read in readit forums people saying that VVs don't get consumed if tossed in their base state as Quick Vials. Acting in a sense as the alchemist's "cantrips." But can't find anything at all in Player Core 2 that says anything close to that. You get 2 + Intelligence, with 2 refilling each 10 min rest. That's it.

So... why would anyone ever use VVs in their base form?

[Blave]

Quick Alchemy allows you to craft an infinite amount of them that are only usable in their base bomb form or for your research field action. So that's effectively infinite bombs. Not very strong, but extremely reliable.

[Snuggles: Destroyer of Worlds]

Blave wrote:

Quick Alchemy allows you to craft an infinite amount of them that are only usable in their base bomb form or for your research field action. So that's effectively infinite bombs. Not very strong, but extremely reliable.

Literally what text states this? I can't find anything. The Quick Alchemy text states:

"You can either use up a versatile vial to make another alchemical consumable at a moment's notice or create an especially short-lived versatile vial."

And Versatile Vials states:
"During your daily preparations, you can create 2 + your Intelligence modifer, which is also your maximum number of vials... You can also use vials for Quick Alchemy and your research field can add to the ways you can use a vial."

Absolutely nowhere in any of that text does it ever say we can infinitely use VVs in their base form as bombs. I would love it if we can. That would give alchemist a "cantrip" or "elemental blast" like spell casters or kineticists. But I can't find any ACTUAL text that indicates that's true. Everything I read says VVs get used up every time you throw/use them.

So what am I missing?

[Blave]

It's in Quick Alchemy called Quick Vial.

[Snuggles: Destroyer of Worlds]

Blave wrote:

It's in Quick Alchemy called Quick Vial.

Please quote the text. Because I'm not seeing it at all. Quick Vial says nothing of the sort that I can find.

[Powers128]

Create consumable states that you "expend" a VV while quick vial states that you "create" a VV which can only be a bomb or used for your research fields thing.

[John R.]

Powers128 wrote:

Create consumable states that you "expend" a VV while quick vial states that you "create" a VV which can only be a bomb or used for your research fields thing.

Yup, this.

The exact text states: "Quick Vial - You create a versatile vial that can be used
only as a bomb or for the versatile vial option from your
research field (it can’t be used to create a consumable, for
example). This item has the infused trait, but it remains
potent only until the end of your current turn"

[Easl]

So, the text could be clearer but I reason it the same way your other replier do, Snuggles.

Quick Alchemy, p59: "You can either use up a versatile vial to make another alchemical consumable at a moment’s notice or create an
especially short-lived versatile vial." This sentence refers to the two paragraphs that follow. The "either" refers to the first bolded paragraph Create Consumable, the "or" refers to the second, Quick Vial.

The Create Consumable action requires you expend a versatile vial you already have. But Quick Vial doesn't. So for one action you can always just create a simple bomb to throw, usable that turn only.

[Snuggles: Destroyer of Worlds]

Powers128 wrote:

Create consumable states that you "expend" a VV while quick vial states that you "create" a VV which can only be a bomb or used for your research fields thing.

Wow. That's splitting fine hairs. I wish they used far more obvious language. I was reading that in the same sense as creating them during daily prep or on a 10 min break. Limiting the stock.

Thank you for the clarification. That helps a lot. And makes the research choice more interesting. That means that the Chirurgeon's healing does not consume VVs, right? But still has the Coagulant property to limit the number of uses in combat?

[kaid]

The wording is not great but the first part does call out expending a VV and the other part says it creates a versatile vial. I think they probably should have pulled that out into two distinct features it is really easy to miss the the infinite use option.

And yes the Chirugeons healing with quick vial does not use up VV's but does add the coagulant feature like a lot of similar things like kineticist healing that limits how often it can be used per person per ecounter.

[Pirate Rob]

I took me awhile to wrap my head around this too.

There are the Daily powers (Advanced Alchemy )

There are Encounter powers (Versatile Vials)

There are At-Will powers (Also called Versatile Vials)

The Encounter powers are when you use Quick Alchemy:Create Consumable to turn your Versatile Vials (2+Int pool, regenerating) into Consumables.

The At-Will powers are when you use Quick Alchemy:Quick Vial to create a Quick Vial that's only usable as the base versatile bomb or your Research Field Specialty.

It's as though instead of using a word like cantrips, they decided to also call them Focus Spells, but have them generate their own Focus point right before casting.

[PossibleCabbage]

VVs differ from Focus in that you have more nova potential in that you start with 6 of them (most likely) and can get up to 10, and you also recover them faster than do focus users until the focus point classes get the "recover all your focus in 10 minutes".

So this could potentially be awkward in a game where the Alchemist gets used to blowing through 6 versatile vials/combat because the party is going to spend 30 minutes refocusing, once the champion et al. decide to speed it up. But that's just a conversation to have at the table. Sometimes you'd going to have a lot more than 30 minutes between fights so you can go HAM.

[Gortle]

Pirate Rob wrote:

I took me awhile to wrap my head around this too.

There are the Daily powers (Advanced Alchemy )

There are Encounter powers (Versatile Vials)

There are At-Will powers (Also called Versatile Vials)

The Encounter powers are when you use Quick Alchemy:Create Consumable to turn your Versatile Vials (2+Int pool, regenerating) into Consumables.

The At-Will powers are when you use Quick Alchemy:Quick Vial to create a Quick Vial that's only usable as the base versatile bomb or your Research Field Specialty.

It's as though instead of using a word like cantrips, they decided to also call them Focus Spells, but have them generate their own Focus point right before casting.

Advanced Alchemy and Versatile Vials are different pools of resources that refresh at different rates. It depends on how you got them.

There are the Daily powers (Versatile Vials) as well. The familiars Extra Vial, the archetype Alchemist Dedication feat for the part timers.

The archetype Alchemist feat Advanced Alchemist also gives Daily powers Advanced Alchemy.

Quick Alchemy is an action to create an extra limited Versatile Vial or to use a regular Versatile Vial. It is single class Alchemist only.

[The Ronyon]

Should have given the at will vials their own name, or names even.

[Snuggles: Destroyer of Worlds]

Can anyone explain the practical use of Double Brew? I get that it allows you to Quick Alchemy 2 consumables at once. But it still takes 2 actions to use them. So how are you really benefitting here vs simply using Quick Alchemy twice? Is Quick Alchemy only creating items? Not using them?

So in practice, without Double Brew it's 1 action to create, 1 action to use, and 1 left over action? But with Quick Alchemy, it's 1 action to create twice, and 2 actions to double use? Such as creating 2 elixirs of life and double chugging them to heal?

If that's true, could an alchemist then spend 4 VVs to create two Combined Elixers for 1 action, then spend another drinking one, and his final tossing the other at an ally to heal them with Healing Bomb or feeding it to them if they are adjacent? If so, that DRAMATICALLY improves the their ability to be functional healers in combat. Which would be awesome.

[BigHatMarisa]

To roll back around to the first question, you typically would throw your base VV if you don't really have anything else to do, since you can use the Quick Vial option of Quick Alchemy to make one out of thin air and then chuck it.

There's also an argument to be made that they're actually better acid bombs once you've already confirmed a hit with an acid flask since it actually deals real upfront acid damage, meaning you save VVs on potentially other useful things.

They're also kinda your only bomb option if you just haven't picked up the formulae for other bombs, which could realistically happen in a campaign where you're, say, a chirurgeon who is the only one handing out utility via elixirs and stuff.

It basically gives all alchemists a free bomb choice.

[Qaianna]

BigHatMarisa wrote:

To roll back around to the first question, you typically would throw your base VV if you don't really have anything else to do, since you can use the Quick Vial option of Quick Alchemy to make one out of thin air and then chuck it.

There's also an argument to be made that they're actually better acid bombs once you've already confirmed a hit with an acid flask since it actually deals real upfront acid damage, meaning you save VVs on potentially other useful things.

They're also kinda your only bomb option if you just haven't picked up the formulae for other bombs, which could realistically happen in a campaign where you're, say, a chirurgeon who is the only one handing out utility via elixirs and stuff.

It basically gives all alchemists a free bomb choice.

As well as pseudo-alchemists. The archetype grants Quick Alchemy too. It’s not a great vomb but if you need acid damage now and forgot to prep any acid spells …

[Gortle]

The Ronyon wrote:

Should have given the at will vials their own name, or names even.

Yes the fact that the multiclass alchemist gets Versatile Vials but cant use Quick Alchemy for Quick Vial only Create Consumable is really confusing.

The net result being that the multiclass alchemist will run out of vials eventually, whereas the full alchemist can always take an extra action to create another vial.

[BigHatMarisa]

Gortle wrote:

Yes the fact that the multiclass alchemist gets Versatile Vials but cant use Quick Alchemy for Quick Vial only Create Consumable is really confusing.

The net result being that the multiclass alchemist will run out of vials eventually, whereas the full alchemist can always take an extra action to create another vial.

I do not believe this is the case. The Quick Alchemy Benefits (which the Alchemist archetype gives you) states: "...you gain the Quick Alchemy action (page 59), which lets you create short-lived alchemical consumables with a special action, and you can create a certain number of versatile vials during your daily preparations to fuel Quick Alchemy." (emphasis mine).

The alchemist archetype states: "You gain the Quick Alchemy benefits (page 174), creating up to 4 versatile vials during your daily preparations." and does not impose any restrictions on the Quick Alchemy action. Thus, you should be able to use Quick Alchemy's Quick Vials option as normal for the action, even as an archetype. In fact, since archetype Alchemists do not pick a research field, they can only Quick Vial to make a short-lived, throwable vial.