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Quick Alchemy allows you to craft an infinite amount of them that are only usable in their base bomb form or for your research field action. So that's effectively infinite bombs. Not very strong, but extremely reliable.
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It's in Quick Alchemy called Quick Vial.
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Create consumable states that you "expend" a VV while quick vial states that you "create" a VV which can only be a bomb or used for your research fields thing.
Yup, this.
The exact text states: "Quick Vial - You create a versatile vial that can be used
only as a bomb or for the versatile vial option from your
research field (it can’t be used to create a consumable, for
example). This item has the infused trait, but it remains
potent only until the end of your current turn"
The wording is not great but the first part does call out expending a VV and the other part says it creates a versatile vial. I think they probably should have pulled that out into two distinct features it is really easy to miss the the infinite use option.
And yes the Chirugeons healing with quick vial does not use up VV's but does add the coagulant feature like a lot of similar things like kineticist healing that limits how often it can be used per person per ecounter.
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I took me awhile to wrap my head around this too.
There are the Daily powers (Advanced Alchemy )
There are Encounter powers (Versatile Vials)
There are At-Will powers (Also called Versatile Vials)
The Encounter powers are when you use Quick Alchemy:Create Consumable to turn your Versatile Vials (2+Int pool, regenerating) into Consumables.
The At-Will powers are when you use Quick Alchemy:Quick Vial to create a Quick Vial that's only usable as the base versatile bomb or your Research Field Specialty.
It's as though instead of using a word like cantrips, they decided to also call them Focus Spells, but have them generate their own Focus point right before casting.
VVs differ from Focus in that you have more nova potential in that you start with 6 of them (most likely) and can get up to 10, and you also recover them faster than do focus users until the focus point classes get the "recover all your focus in 10 minutes".
So this could potentially be awkward in a game where the Alchemist gets used to blowing through 6 versatile vials/combat because the party is going to spend 30 minutes refocusing, once the champion et al. decide to speed it up. But that's just a conversation to have at the table. Sometimes you'd going to have a lot more than 30 minutes between fights so you can go HAM.
I took me awhile to wrap my head around this too.
There are the Daily powers (Advanced Alchemy )
There are Encounter powers (Versatile Vials)
There are At-Will powers (Also called Versatile Vials)
The Encounter powers are when you use Quick Alchemy:Create Consumable to turn your Versatile Vials (2+Int pool, regenerating) into Consumables.
The At-Will powers are when you use Quick Alchemy:Quick Vial to create a Quick Vial that's only usable as the base versatile bomb or your Research Field Specialty.
It's as though instead of using a word like cantrips, they decided to also call them Focus Spells, but have them generate their own Focus point right before casting.
Advanced Alchemy and Versatile Vials are different pools of resources that refresh at different rates. It depends on how you got them.
There are the Daily powers (Versatile Vials) as well. The familiars Extra Vial, the archetype Alchemist Dedication feat for the part timers.
The archetype Alchemist feat Advanced Alchemist also gives Daily powers Advanced Alchemy.
Quick Alchemy is an action to create an extra limited Versatile Vial or to use a regular Versatile Vial. It is single class Alchemist only.
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Should have given the at will vials their own name, or names even.
To roll back around to the first question, you typically would throw your base VV if you don't really have anything else to do, since you can use the Quick Vial option of Quick Alchemy to make one out of thin air and then chuck it.
There's also an argument to be made that they're actually better acid bombs once you've already confirmed a hit with an acid flask since it actually deals real upfront acid damage, meaning you save VVs on potentially other useful things.
They're also kinda your only bomb option if you just haven't picked up the formulae for other bombs, which could realistically happen in a campaign where you're, say, a chirurgeon who is the only one handing out utility via elixirs and stuff.
It basically gives all alchemists a free bomb choice.
To roll back around to the first question, you typically would throw your base VV if you don't really have anything else to do, since you can use the Quick Vial option of Quick Alchemy to make one out of thin air and then chuck it.
There's also an argument to be made that they're actually better acid bombs once you've already confirmed a hit with an acid flask since it actually deals real upfront acid damage, meaning you save VVs on potentially other useful things.
They're also kinda your only bomb option if you just haven't picked up the formulae for other bombs, which could realistically happen in a campaign where you're, say, a chirurgeon who is the only one handing out utility via elixirs and stuff.
It basically gives all alchemists a free bomb choice.
As well as pseudo-alchemists. The archetype grants Quick Alchemy too. It’s not a great vomb but if you need acid damage now and forgot to prep any acid spells …
Should have given the at will vials their own name, or names even.
Yes the fact that the multiclass alchemist gets Versatile Vials but cant use Quick Alchemy for Quick Vial only Create Consumable is really confusing.
The net result being that the multiclass alchemist will run out of vials eventually, whereas the full alchemist can always take an extra action to create another vial.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yes the fact that the multiclass alchemist gets Versatile Vials but cant use Quick Alchemy for Quick Vial only Create Consumable is really confusing.
The net result being that the multiclass alchemist will run out of vials eventually, whereas the full alchemist can always take an extra action to create another vial.
I do not believe this is the case. The Quick Alchemy Benefits (which the Alchemist archetype gives you) states: "...you gain the Quick Alchemy action (page 59), which lets you create short-lived alchemical consumables with a special action, and you can create a certain number of versatile vials during your daily preparations to fuel Quick Alchemy." (emphasis mine).
The alchemist archetype states: "You gain the Quick Alchemy benefits (page 174), creating up to 4 versatile vials during your daily preparations." and does not impose any restrictions on the Quick Alchemy action. Thus, you should be able to use Quick Alchemy's Quick Vials option as normal for the action, even as an archetype. In fact, since archetype Alchemists do not pick a research field, they can only Quick Vial to make a short-lived, throwable vial.
Envisioning error detected. Name collision: 'Versatile Vial'.
Versatile Vial (1): An item created during daily preparations that remains potent until the next daily preparations.
Versatile Vial (2): An item created via Quick Alchemy that remains potent only until the end of the character's current turn.
Versatile Vial (3): A bomb item that can be used for Strike attacks.
This name collision causes Envisioning problems regarding action costs and resource consumption, especially for characters with only an Alchemical Archetype instead of the Alchemist class.
Questions unable to be answered satisfactorily with the current Envisioning:
1) Is a Versatile Vial (1) also a Versatile Vial (3) that can be used in a weapon attack with no action cost other than Draw and Strike?
2) Is a Versatile Vial (1) not directly a Versatile Vial (3) and the Quick Alchemy action is needed in order to transform a Versatile Vial (1) into a Versatile Vial (3) to make an attack with?
3) Is a Versatile Vial (1) never a Versatile Vial (3) item and Quick Alchemy can only create a Versatile Vial (3) by using the Quick Vial option to create a Versatile Vial (2) item which is also a Versatile Vial (3) item.
4) Which meaning of Versatile Vial is intended in the Envisioning of Alchemical Archetypes: Quick Alchemy Benefits when it limits what types and what quantities of Versatile Vials can be created and which consumables can be created from them? Do those limits on Versatile Vials also limit the creation of Versatile Vial (3) items?
These unanswerable questions lead to inconsistencies in reality. Can a Wandering Chef character throw their Versatile Vial (1) items as a Versatile Vial (3) bomb? Can a Gunslinger with Munitions Machinist use the Quick Alchemy action to create a Versatile Vial (2) item without expending a Versatile Vial (1) item and throw the Versatile Vial (2) item as a Versatile Vial (3) bomb? Or would the Gunslinger be required to consume a Versatile Vial (1) item when using Quick Alchemy to utilize the Create Consumable option to create a bomb? Could a Fireworks Technician character create an unlimited number of Versatile Vial (3) items using Quick Alchemy similar to the Gunslinger with Munitions Machinist?
Wow. That's splitting fine hairs. I wish they used far more obvious language. I was reading that in the same sense as creating them during daily prep or on a 10 min break. Limiting the stock.
Thank you for the clarification. That helps a lot. And makes the research choice more interesting.
I ran into this exact issue when I began digging into alchemist a few months back. You're not alone in your initial confusion. The wording of the rules could have been a whole lot clearer than it is.
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Envisioning error detected. Name collision: 'Versatile Vial'.
Versatile Vial (1): An item created during daily preparations that remains potent until the next daily preparations.
Versatile Vial (2): An item created via Quick Alchemy that remains potent only until the end of the character's current turn.
Versatile Vial (3): A bomb item that can be used for Strike attacks.This name collision causes Envisioning problems regarding action costs and resource consumption, especially for characters with only an Alchemical Archetype instead of the Alchemist class.
Questions unable to be answered satisfactorily with the current Envisioning:
1) Is a Versatile Vial (1) also a Versatile Vial (3) that can be used in a weapon attack with no action cost other than Draw and Strike?
2) Is a Versatile Vial (1) not directly a Versatile Vial (3) and the Quick Alchemy action is needed in order to transform a Versatile Vial (1) into a Versatile Vial (3) to make an attack with?
3) Is a Versatile Vial (1) never a Versatile Vial (3) item and Quick Alchemy can only create a Versatile Vial (3) by using the Quick Vial option to create a Versatile Vial (2) item which is also a Versatile Vial (3) item.
4) Which meaning of Versatile Vial is intended in the Envisioning of Alchemical Archetypes: Quick Alchemy Benefits when it limits what types and what quantities of Versatile Vials can be created and which consumables can be created from them? Do those limits on Versatile Vials also limit the creation of Versatile Vial (3) items?
These unanswerable questions lead to inconsistencies in reality. Can a Wandering Chef character throw their Versatile Vial (1) items as a Versatile Vial (3) bomb? Can a Gunslinger with Munitions Machinist use the Quick Alchemy action to create a Versatile Vial (2) item without expending a Versatile Vial (1) item and throw the Versatile...
I don't know if Finoan ressurrected this thread seriously but I will answer some questions.
Specific Versatile Vial (3) does not exist. All Versatile Vials are acid bombs by default what happens is that Quick Alchemy can change them into other things depending if its is used to Create Consumable (in practice transform an existing Versatile Vial into another Alchemical Consumable) or to Quick Vial (create a "special" Versatile Vial with duration up to the end of your turn that can also be created with some special characteristics described by your research field if you want).
1) Yes. The Versatile Vial can be created in different ways (daily/10 minutes recovery that stays up to your next daily preparations vs Quick Vials that endures up to the end of your turn) having different durations but they basically works in the same way when used as bombs.
2) No. You can simply thrown any Versatile Vials as bombs without any preparation. What Quick Alchemy does is use them to Create Consumable to create another alchemical item that you know the formula. You never transform a Versatile Vial into other Versatile Vial.
3) No. Quick Vial crates a Versatile Vial (2) from nowhere. This version of Versatile Vial can only be used as bomb or can be created using one of its alternatives described in your research field.
4) Quick Alchemy Benefits give the character a limited number of Versatile Vial (1) and the Quick Alchemy to be able to transform then into other alchemical consumables but you can’t regain versatile vials every 10 minutes like a pure alchemist does. Yet it's dubious how Quick Vial works once that "Unless otherwise noted, you can’t regain versatile vials throughout the day the way alchemists can" doesn't explain if this "regains" also considers Quick Vial or not. IMO not, this restrictions looks like that is made only to restrict the ability to recover Versatile Vial (1) every 10 minutes the vials created by Quick Vial are just restricted to be a very simple acid bomb due the lack of research field.
About other questions:
1) Yes a Wandering Chef can thrown Versatile Vials as bombs.
2) It's uncertain. As I said before the Quick Alchemy Benefits says that it restricts "regain versatile vials throughout the day" but this looks like to referers to Versatile Vial (1) not to Versatile Vial (2) create via Quick Vial. But IMO I think that a Munitions Machinist allows this.
3) Fireworks Technician is very bad writen. I recommend that you ignore the remaster version of this archetype until the Paizo make an decent errata of it. Currently it's super exploitable because you can basically use it to unlock "unlimited" Versatile Vials along the day as if you are an pure alchemist and combine it with other alchemical archetypes to basically ignore the Quick Alchemy Benefits restriction allowing you the create alchemical consumables in every encounter without worries.
Envisioning error detected. Name collision: 'Versatile Vial'.
Versatile Vial (1): An item created during daily preparations that remains potent until the next daily preparations.
Versatile Vial (2): An item created via Quick Alchemy that remains potent only until the end of the character's current turn.
Versatile Vial (3): A bomb item that can be used for Strike attacks.
First, strike #3. That is a function of #2. Second, what we've taken to doing at our table to clean everything up is to rename #2 to "Field Vial."
So then, Versatile Vials are vials that an Alchemist prepares each day. These vials can be used with Quick Alchemy to create any known, consumable Alchemical item on the fly. Used Versatile Vials replenish at a base rate of two every ten minutes.
Field Vials are created by Quick Alchemy, do not consume Verstatile Vials, and have very limited application as defined by each field. By default, one application is that they can be thrown as a small bomb.
Thinking of Versatile Vials as Alchemist focus points while Field Vials are Alchemist cantrips, we find, helps conceptualize their applicability.
I don't know if Finoan ressurrected this thread seriously but I will answer some questions.
Yes, it is serious. Very serious. With an alt character that has a very specific, very serious purpose. I want to be able to quickly find these types of difficult rules problems and where they have been discussed and debated.
The purpose is not to spark debate. It is not to request possible rulings from the community. I have my own rulings for the problems described. And it has already been discussed out at least once.
The difficulty is that no table ruling is going to be universal. The rules themselves have a problem. That problem is able to be described and narrowed down.
So I am doing it. I am trying to describe the rules text problem as fairly and accurately and emotionlessly as possible and give a summary of the various sides of the debate - again as fairly and emotionlessly as possible.
And maybe make it a bit entertaining while I am at it. Because why not.
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I'll chip in a bit,
my understanding is that those 1-turn VVs created by Quick Alch: Quick Vial are abnormal exceptions, completely separate from the daily, consumable-making VVs.
Any and all text discussing gaining or using VVs does not consider the Q. Vials to exist.
I have no reason to think that archetypes that grant Quick Alchemy would be denied the infinite free temp VV bombs of Q. Vials.
.
As someone who wrote an entire Alchemist remaster, I suspect the confusing way in which Quick Alchemy is written was done precisely so that the infinite "cantrip bombs" were included in the archetype Quick Alchemy package, while maintaining Research Field special use compatibility.
Though I am rather surprised / disappointed that archetypes like Wandering Chef do not have a unique temp VVs special use as the Alchemist Research Fields do.
Even if perhaps locked behind one ore more feats, adding specific "cantrip uses" of the temp VVs seems like a rather big appeal of constructing Quick Alchemy like that.
The alch archetypes leaving that space blank is like going through the effort of renovating a room, but neglecting to put a surface over top the bare concrete.
They already did the hard part for the main Alch class, yet decided to leave all the alch archetypes with identical, bare-bones, (and nearly worthless,) instant temp VVs.